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Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:23 pm  |
Some Info on pH and wait times
The initials pH stand for “Power of Hydrogen” or "Potential of Hydrogen”. Both terms are correct. This is a measure of the activity of hydrogen or hydrogen ion content in a solution.
The pH scale measures how acidic or alkaline a product is, compared to pure distilled water. (which is pH 7.0)
Only wet substances have a measurable pH. The skins pH is actually the pH on the skins surface from the moisture within the skin, and the "acid mantle" which is part of the protective "barrier" on its surface. Hair for example has no pH.
(The acid mantle is a fine film layer, slightly acidic, made up from skin oils, sweat, and dead cells. It is one means the skin uses to protect itself from bacterium, and moisture loss, and environmental damage. Pollutants, harmful bacterium, contaminants are normally alkaline in nature, so a slightly acid skin surface helps fight off these harmful elements and prevent them from entering into, and damaging the skin. Maintaining the acid mantle is recommended for good skin health. When the acid mantle is damaged it takes approximately 14-17 days to repair itself. (assuming no other damaging products are applied to it)
A damaged acid mantle leads to a number of skin issues, such as over dry skin, dehydration, over oily skin, flaky skin, acne, sensitivity etc. It would require another long post to detail all this. But incorrect pH products can contribute to acid mantle degradation, and increases in acne causing bacterium on the skin. (More on this below)
The pH Scale
The pH scale goes from 0-14, this covers most wet substances, though some substances can be extreamly acid or base, and go beyond this scale. But for skincare products, you will not be using these.
-Acids have pH values under 7 - they are more acidic then water (acid)
-alkalis have pH values over 7 - they are more alkaline then water (base)
-If a substance has a pH value of 7 - it is neutral, like water, (neither acid nor base)
The difference between one pH, is one unit of measure, and represents tenfold, or ten times the change.
Each whole number below 7 is ten times more acidic then the next higher number. (6.0 to 7.0 for example) Each whole number above is ten times more alkaline.
The segments between each whole value are divided into increments of 10ths. Not increments of one. Similar to the way a ruler has both inches, and 16ths of inches divisions between each inch marker ( 5.0, 5.1, 5.2, 5.3 …)
For example, a cleanser with a pH of 6 is ten times more alkaline than a cleanser with a pH of 5.
A cleanser with a pH of 7 is 100 times more alkaline then one of 5.
Skin pH is 4.5 to 5.5, which is a recommended cleanser range, for best skin health.
Because of this, only a few units of pH can make a big difference in how a product or your skin reacts.
(A pH scale tells you if a product is more acid or alkaline/base. 7 is neutral - it is equally acid and base. Any number less then 7 is acidic, any number higher then 7 is alkaline)
pH Examples
Some pH examples:
pH 1 battery acid - (acid extreme)
pH 1.5 -2 = Gastric (stomach) acid
pH 2.5 = Cola soft drinks
pH 2 = lemon juice
pH 3 = vinegar
ph = 3.5 Orange Juice
pH 4.6-5.5 = healthy skin
pH 5.5 = rain, (pure water, when exposed to the atmosphere, will take in carbon dioxide, changing its pH)
pH 6.5 = milk
pH 6.5 – 7.4 = Healthy Saliva
pH 7 = pure distilled water - (this is Neutral pH, neither acid or base)[/color]
pH 7.35 – 7.45 = human blood
pH 8.5 = baking soda
pH 9 = Sea Water
pH 9.0-10.0 = Hand Soap, detergents
pH 10.5 = Milk of Magnesia
pH 11.5 = household ammonia
pH 12.5 = household bleach
pH 13 = lye (sodium hydroxide, or Draino)(Alkaline or Base extreme)
Skin, and the Acid Mantle
Newborn baby skin has a pH of 7. (it is neutral)
Within a few months it adjusts to a more "normal" pH of 4.5 to 5.5. This allows their skin to be more resistive to bacterium.
Adult skin is normally slightly acidic, a range of 4.5 to 5.5. Different body areas can differ some in pH, and disease and acid mantle damage can alter pH.
But the preferred range for facial skin pH is 4.5 to 5.5.
Those with skin disease, skin problems, and stressed skin usually have a skin pH over 6.0.
Aged, stressed and damaged skin have more difficulty maintaining a “correct” pH.
As skin pH raises closer to pH 7.0 it becomes less able to function optimally and to kill bacterium. This allows acne causing bacterium to multiply rapidly on the skin surface. Acne bacteria are found on everyone’s skin, even if you never have a pimple in your life. If you are acne prone, the number of bacterium is greater on your skin. So you have more breakouts. Many things contribute to acne, and can be changed to adjust it.
The damaged skin is unable to "manage" the excess bacteria, and they multiply rapidly. Bacterium growth is very slow at pH of 5.5 or less- but a slight shift upward/higher, toward the alkaline levels, causes a marked increase in the reproduction and lifespan of acne causing bacteria.
So if your skin is at a higher pH (anything over 6, as damaged skin often is) the acne causing bacteria can multiply much easier and faster. Often faster then your skin can handle. That is a separate post though. Just remember skin pH is one main contributor to acne.
Skin pH also has an effect on how irritable skin is, how well it ages, and how it deals with product and environmental stress. This is why it is recommended you cleanse skin with mild, non-irritating products, as close to the skins natural pH as possible. (5.5)
Many commercial cleansers are very alkaline, which also changes the skins pH to alkaline levels on the skin surface, for a short time. Many alkaline cleansers are in the same pH range as baking soda, and some are as high as ammonia. This is very harsh on the skin, and can lead to increased irritation, acne, moisture loss, skin aging etc. This allows the bacterium to have a party.  With the damage to the acid mantle, the bacterium growth continues unchecked.
As pimples erupt, the skin is less able to heal the zits, or the damage they leave behind. Oil flow increases to try and help balance the barrier, dryness, flakiness, rashes, sensitivity and irritation can also become a problem.
All are related to skin that is very stressed, and unhealthy, and cannot balance itself.
If a product has a high pH and a larger percentage of a strong irritant detergent ingredient cleanser like sodium lauryl sulfate, or irritant ingredient like peppermint oil or menthol, because of the pH destructive activity on the acid mantle, the detergent can contribute to even more damage then it would if the product pH was closer to 5.5.
It literally takes a split second for an alkaline product to degrade the skin barrier enough for an irritant or damaging detergent to penetrate. Some people can handle this better then others, but long term daily use on the skin can contribute to long term issues on all skin types. As skin ages, or the barrier function degrades, it has more difficultly dealing with this type of stress.
Even after 20 min or so, when the skin re-adjusts to its more normal pH (4.5 to 5.5) - it is already damaged, irritated and stressed.
The damage recovery involves longer term healing. 14 to 17 days for acid mantle repair.
This continued long-term damage, stress, and mild irritation, can prevent the skin from maintaining its best pH level of 4.5 to 5.5. With time, and increased damage, it may tend to stay at the 6 range or higher.
As skin become healthier, its pH values lower, and acne growth also lowers. Oil production, dryness, etc all become more "normal" and regulated.
Listing of pH of many common cleansers:
http://www.dianayvonne.com/category/11.thephofcommoncleanser
A few examples from above link:
Burt’s Bees Tomato, Carrot, and Lettuce soaps 10
Dial Soap (liquid and bar) 9.5
Dove Bar, Baby Dove Bar 7
Johnson & Johnson Head to Toe Baby Wash 6.5-7.0
Neutrogena Facial Cleansing Bar Original Formula 8.7-9.2
Paula’s Choice (all formulations) 5.5
A product may include the term “pH Balanced” on the label. This ONLY means it has a pH of 7.0 or neutral, it is “balanced” between 0-14. Not that is has a pH the skin likes of 5.5. The term has no legal definition. So can be used to mean anything from 5.5 to 7.0.
Some products are a good pH, but high in irritants. Which is better then high pH and high irritants, but not great either.
A good cleanser cleans the skin without stripping it, and without breaking down the acid mantle, or adding irritants to the skin. It is mild with a 5.5 or lower pH.
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Exfoliating Power of AHAs and BHAs
The acids commonly used in skin care treatment products are all pH dependant. (AHAs, BHAs,TCA) The lower the pH, the more effective the acid is on the skin. It will work better, penetrate better and deeper, with a more concentrated effect. It can also me more irritating because it is more “powerful”
When an acid product is formulated with a pH below 2.0, all of its acid percentage is essentially “free” – or available to work effectively on the skin.
For example:
A 20% lactic acid product at a pH of 1.9 has 20% of the lactic acid “free” or available to work on your skin. This is refereed to as the “Free Acid Value” or FAV. (The FAV is the percentage of acid that is free to actually do something or its true strength)
As the pH raises closer to 7.0, less acid is free (less strength) and the acid effectiveness is weakened.
So for a true understanding of the strength of your acid product – you need to know the acid percentage in the product, and the pH.
AHAs (Glycolic, Lactic, malic, citric, and tartaric are the most common) are basically ineffective over 4.0 pH, to exfoliate the skin the skin, the pH must be below 4 pH. Product percentage must be over 5%. (5% to 8% with a pH of 3- 4 is the minimum level for a daily use AHA, this will not treat scars or rebuild collagen) It should be second or third on the ingredient list to be at least 5%. It can moisturize the skin at any pH, and any level.
Glycolic and Lactic are the most researched, and penetrate the skin the easiest.
BHAs (salicylic acid) are also basically ineffective over 4.0 pH; to exfoliate the skin, and unclog pores, the pH must be below 4 pH. Product percentage must be over 1%. (1% to 2% with a pH of 3- 4 is the minimum level for a daily use BHA (skin with very clogged pores may need higher 5% and lower pH)
BHA though penetrating deeper is actually milder then AHA, because it is also has anti-inflammatory effects. It can be toward the middle or end of an ingredient list, because amounts needed are less.
A pH test strip or litmus strip will give you the pH. (buy some made with a lower pH range, not all strips go from 1 – 14) Strips will not be as accurate as a true electronic pH gage, but for home use it will be close enough.
Here is the link to Diana's page on FAV and skin remodeling results:
http://dianayvonne.zoovy.com/category/16.aboutpeels
This shows two charts.
The first chart covers the FAV available, and the amount of acid percent needed for specific skin effects. (Exfoliation, collagen rebuilding, skin lightening etc)
For example: a 10% (free acid value) glycolic acid (AHA) gives "Significant increase in squamous cell turnover.
Moderate increase in collagen deposition." (a 10% amount of AHA acid working on the skin, removed damaged cells, and rebuilds skin collagen or firmness)
The second chart clarifies how the pH affects the amount of acid available for the skin to use – or the FAV
For example, the three 20% entries:
20% AHA at a pH of 2.55 has a free acid value (FAV) of 18.6%. (its only REALLY an 18.6% product in effectiveness, because of the pH)
20% at pH 3.4 drops to 14.6% FAV.
(its only REALLY a 14.6% product in effectiveness, because of the pH)
20% at pH 4.3 drops to 4.8% FAV.
(its only REALLY a 4.8% product in effectiveness, because of the pH)
When a 20% AHA product has a pH over 3 it has lost approximately 25% of it exfoliation activity. Once pH reaches 4 pH, it loses 75% of it exfoliation activity. (as many commercial products are formulated, so basically poorly effective)
BHAs are effective at slightly different ranges, so the FAV scale differs a bit, but the principle is similar.
Skin Biology Exfol serum 2% BHA with a 3.2 pH and Paula’s Choice 2% BHA with a 3.4 pH are very similar products, and strengths. Professional Solutions 2% BHA has a pH of 1.9% so is actually much more active on the skin then either Exfol or Paula’s Choice, even at the same acid percentage.
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Layering Products and Wait Times
pH effects the acid you use and how it works. Another consideration is not to disturb an acid while it is on your skin, which can alter pH and effect it action on the skin.
Generally speaking an acid is effective for approximately 20 to 30 minutes on the skin surface, after that point the skin pH has risen enough to lessen the exfoliation action on the skin. The acid is effectively neutralized. During this 30 minute time frame, the acid is working at effective strong levels. Anything applied after 30 minutes will not hamper the effect of your acid, as the pH has already changed, and the acid action has slowed a lot.
Acids that are a high percentage such as 30 % and 40% and above are more concentrated. Therefore their activity can continue for longer, so their action should be stopped at appropriate time with the use of a base rinse (baking soda and water) or a mild detergent cleanser. This will effectively halt the exfoliation action, by raising the skin pH.
For the same reason, washing the skin with a highly alkaline product over 5.5, can slow or lessen the effect of your acid. Because the acid must now deal with the high pH level on the skin, And by default low pH applied to high pH creates a high pH, not a low one.
The bigger the range difference, the more this will effect your acid action.
This is especially true in the case of low pH acids at 2.0 pH or less. So if you use a high pH cleanser, you should wait 30 minutes before using a pH dependant product, to allow the skin to regulate its pH down o about 5.5. Or adjust the pH of the skin down first with an acidic product.
Most astringents and toners used for this purpose also contain high levels of irritants such at Alcohols, Witch Hazel, Menthols, Mint oils, etc. These are not the best choices for the skin as they can over strip and degrade the skin barrier. This can also cause an increase in oiliness and acne. If you want to use a toner to adjust pH to lower levels, either use a liquid acid like Paula’s Choice BHA or AHA liquid first. Or a very dilute mixture of Apple Cidar Vinegar and distilled water. You could also use Paula’s Choice toner which is alcohol free and at a 5.5 pH. But it has added moisturizers, which might effect the acid products penetration action.
Even dilute vinegar can be very irritating and drying to the skin. So use you best judgment, and use ratios of 1/3 ACV to 2/3 water or 50/50 mix. Depending on your skin needs and sensitivity. Back off if skin becomes irritated, flaky, over dry or over oily.
I personally just prefer to go with a very mild, detergent free 5.5 pH cleanser, and then I don’t need to wait or be concerned with the irritation issues. But that’s a personal preference. ( I personally like the Geographx Foaming Tea Tree Gel Wash, or Azulene Gel Wash, both at 5.5 pH, detergent free, mild http://www.geografx-cosmetics.com )
If you use a BHA product with 3.2 pH. Then immediately apply a treatment product on top, with 6.5 pH, the exfoliation action of your BHA is reduced by 75%. So applying a higher pH to your pH dependant acid will neutralize it sooner, or stop its action at th point you added the higher pH product.
Other Products are also pH dependant, and can be affected. Solution of L-Ascorbic Acid forms of Vitamin C are pH dependant. For good stability and effective action, a good Ascorbic acid product is about 2.0 pH. Since Vitamin C absorbs faster into the skin, you can generally have a shorter wait of about 10 to 15 minutes. Because of its fast absorption, it is not generally used as an exfoliate.(Assuming you want to use it as a treatment activity, not simply for its anti-oxidant effects)
To work as an anti-oxidant, it is not pH dependant.
Not all Vit C serums are low pH. Those made with Vit C blends, or other forms of Vit C have a higher pH, so less issues. (will cover that in detail in Vit C post)
Some Good General Rules:
This is Product rules info from DebNir, who used to post on the Diana Yvonne Board, the original post is now gone.
1. Use a mild non irritant, low detergent or detergent free cleanse with a 5.5 pH or lower.
2. If you cleanser pH is higher then 5.5, wait 15 to 30 minutes after cleansing to use a low pH acid, for best exfoliation action. (AHA or BHA)
3. Acids should be applied to freshly cleansed skin, free of all other product for best results.
4. Both acid percentage and product pH must be used to factor total effective acid amounts. (FAV)
5. If using AHA and BHA together, always apply AHA first (after cleansing) – unless the BHA solution is a 1.9 level (equal to or lower then your AHA %) In which case apply the BHA first, because it penetrates skin oils better, and will enhance the AHA effectiveness.
6. Acids can be used in many different ways – which affect wait times.
a) If a 2% or 5% BHA product is used, and rinsed off. Wait until it is rinsed off to proceed (this is a wash off, or rinse off product, less effective then a leave on product)
b) If a 2% or 5% BHA product is applied and left on the skin, but not AHA product is following, wait 30 minutes before applying next product. (the 30 minute time frame allows the BHA to work at its most effective, and exfoliate at optimal levels. This is the recommended option for best exfoliation results)
c) If a 2% or 5% BHA is applied and left on the skin before a rinse off AHA, you do not need wait to apply the AHA – IF the pH of both products is similar and compatible. If you rinse the AHA off after 5 minutes of application (over the BHA) you have also stopped the BHA action at 5 minutes. Both should have a lower effective pH. If the AHA has a higher pH, it will also raise the pH of the BHA, effecting its action also.
d) If a 2% or 5% BHA is being left on the skin, before a leave on AHA, you don’t need to wait to apply the AHA. Apply BHA, Then AHA, then wait a total of 30 minutes with both products layered, then proceed to next product application. (assuming both acids have the lower pH)
e) Do not apply a higher pH BHA before a lower pH AHA. The higher pH product will hinder the lower pH product. Wait 30 minutes between both acids, applying the lowest pH first. Wait 30 minutes “working” time for each product.
f) If using a higher BHA after a lower AHA product, apply lower pH AHA first. Wait 30 minutes for it to work. Then apply higher pH BHA on top (no rinse needed), and wait 30 minutes for the BHA to work. Then apply other activities, no rinse off needed.
g) If you need to rinse products off sooner then 30 minutes to shorten activity and lessen irritation, you can rinse with water, before proceeding to the next step.
(If using a high strength AHA or BHA, at strong “professional” peel level strength, you will neutralize product with baking soda and water, and rinse off before proceeding to your next step)
h) Apply low pH before high pH.
If you are using a lower pH BHA over another higher pH product to act as a penetration enhancer, then it can be applied over the lower pH product. Just remember you loose the BHA exfoliation effect.
Other Activities:
This is Product layering info from DebNir, who used to post on the Diana Yvonne Board, and is familuar with the product by that company.
Retinols, Retinoids, Vitamin A products:
These products are often pH dependant, and can work as a mild exfoliate type product. Apply to clean dry skin, once to twice a day, Wait 15 to 30 minutes before adding other activates.
DCX:
This is an eye treatment product with soy. It is not an exfoliate. Should be applied to clean skin, once or twice a day. Apply after acids and cleansers, before copper and other treatments. Wait time of 10 minutes to allow it to absorb. Then apply other products.
DMAE:
No ph Limits, can be used after acids and cleansing. Formulation type can dictate placement. Liquids, gels and serums can be applied before CP serums, lotions and creams. Lotion and cream DMAE should be applied after CP serums and creams. Wait time of 10 minutes to allow product to absorb.
Product Application by type
This is a rough guide for product application, based on type/absorbency. This is for products that are not pH dependant, nor limited by activity type. The thickness of a product, dictates its placement. You cannot apply a think product (like a liquid) over a thick product (like a cream) and expect it to absorb well. The cream can be a barrier to the thinner product.
-Cleanser (may need to wait before exfoliate, if pH is a concern)
(optional pH adjusting product could be used here, after cleansing) before acid)
-Exfoliate (usually requires a wait time)
-Toner (Liquid water like products, such as toner/treatment solutions, liquid DMAE)
-Serum (Copper Serum, treatment Serums, DMAE thicker products)
-Gel (DMAE, deffrin)
-Oils (Emu, Jojoba, Almond, etc)
-Creams
-Sunscreen
-Foundations
This info is compiled from a number of web and printed sources. Some info came directly from some old posts I had saved, authored by DebNIR from the Diana Yvonne Skincare board. Some of those posts are now gone. One post is here. I think you need to be a member to view it. You may find some of her others there still.
http://www.theskincareboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1266&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=&sid=c3c5f36220378df62a07778c1bc98199
It is in this area:
The SkinCare Board Forum Index -> Cleansers -> Help Deb - Looking for post which explains pH...
I will do one on Vitamin C tomarrow for those who asked. |
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Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:55 am |
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1. If we use water to remove pH-balanced cleanser, the final pH of the skin equal the pH of the water, not the cleanser. So, it's 7, and we still need some waiting time or pH-balanced toner before applying acids. Am I right?
2. The alkaline products damage the skin acid mantle. So, if we use DMAE every day, in a long run, we damage the skin. Or the damage is made only if the last applied product is alkaline? |
Sorry, I will try to be clear, sort of hard to explain.
No the cleanser is the final pH issue – not the water.
Water is neutral, it is nether acid or base – it does not have the ability to “change” the pH of anything on its own - it changes based on what is added to it. (assuming we are avoiding dilution issues)
When you create a product, you use distilled water as a base, because it is neutral and can go either direction easily. Think of it as Vanilla Ice Cream. It is plan standard vanilla, ready for you to “add stuff” to make the flavor you want.. or a plain canvas.
Water does not strip the acid mantle, nor damage the proteins and oils that make it up. (assuming we are not useing altered or very hot very cold water- which by it temperature and additives can have a negative effect)
So the acid mantle stays essentially intact with water washing or rinsing. Even though water will change the skin pH for a short time, it has no irritants, detergents, or acids or alkaline issue that are also degrading the skin barrier at the same time. So though the pH is altered on the skin – the acid mantle is not negatively effected. So bacterium growth is not drastically altered, because the acid mantle is relatively intact.
(There is a debate on negative association with water only washing though, related to increased Rosacea disease processes, so this is not the best wash method necessarily – but for those details it should be addressed separately to minimize confusion here.  )
The acid mantle is “weaker” when wet, and more easily disrupted, much like hair is weaker when wet. (this is part of the whole – “are moisturizer lotions good or bad debate” – as they leave skin wet all the time, so weaken all the time)
While the skin is wet, all products do penetrate easier then they do on dry skin.
This is why if you apply Retin A to wet skin, it irritates you more then if applyed to dry skin.
But water itself is not “harming anything”, assuming your water is relatively healthy. There is really nothing in it to damage the skin. (debates about tap water, and chlorine an such are separate speculation at this point, and I am not really referring too that at this moment) The skin easily readjusts its pH back to normal in about 20 minutes, with no damage.
The pH flux is okay.
So if its just water, the pH issue is fine. The skin can handle limited pH adjustments on its own with no problem, assuming it is healthy. Of course stressed skin is another matter, in which case mild products with lower pH is recommended when possible. Because stressed and unhealthy skin has pH issues anyway, and can't adjust so well.
A cleanser has added extra problems though – it has detergents and additives that help it maintain its pH. So it is a “more concintrated” alkiline for lack of a better term. It will not shift easily from water rinsing alone. If it is between 5.5 and 7.0 it is close to neutral, which is good from the skin standpoint. (which likes the 5.5 range)
But the added detergents and irritants (if they are in there, as in 95% of all cleansers) have more access to the skin surface when it is wet. If the cleanser has a pH of 5.5 the acid mantle is not affected dramatically by the pH, but wetness will weaken it more.
A detergent by its natural removes or strips oils from the skin surface, this will also breakdown the acid mantle which is oil based. This then allows entrance of other substances, irritants, detergents and such to the skin. So it’s the detergents, ingredients and ph. That are the issue. (Assuming we are dealing with a lower ph below 7.0)
When you add ANY acid or alkaline to water – you change the water to be more acid or base. The higher the concentration of acid/base the more water is effected. Think of adding chocolate syrup to vanilla. Just a little changes the flavor and color of the vanilla – though it still tastes vanilla. A chemical analysis will show it is now vanilla WITH added chocolate. Most people may not notice the flavor change – but if you hate chocolate – even a drop will be noticeable to you. LOL.
Add a lot of chocolate syrup (or a very high pH) and now though it is still vanilla, you can definitely tell it is now much more chocolaty. If you hate chocolate, you will not tolerate this ice cream at all. (pity you though)
The higher the pH of your cleanser the worse the issue is, because it alters the wet weakened skin barrier more dramatically, and faster, and the type of detergent can determine how deep, faster, and dramatically the skin is disrupted. The more “stripping” the product is, the less acid mantle is left to help “protect” the skin, or recover, so then more damage will occur.
The pH alone (assuming we are staying at 7.0 and below) would not be the issue, if it was not also combined with irritants and detergents, and other “bad” ingredients etc that degrade the acid mantle at the same time. (Unless the pH is much higher anyway, like 9 pH and above) Because the acid mantel is also removed, the skin protection is dramatically cut. Skin sensitivity and issues increase.
DMAE is normally not damaging to the skin barrier. It can be irritating or drying if percentage is to high for your skin type. This is true of most active ingrediants. But it does not degrade or damage the skin barrier. So unless you are using a level that it to irritating for you – it is not degrading the skin barrier. So the pH is a short term issue, after 20 min it stabilizes, and the skin and barrier are not damaged.
With a cleanser – because it also strips and degreases the skin, which also means it strips the acid mantle, the skin is exposed to irritants, and must deal with that exposure and damage caused, AND rebuild the acid mantle, and heal the skin. So it has NO protection after the detergent is applied. Then ANY other product used will damage it even more until the acid mantle is repaired. (toners, astringents, foundations etc)
The repair can take 14-21 days. So everything applied for the next two weeks, is now effecting the skin more then it normally should.
DMAE does not strip the skin, so the acid mantle is still well able to protect the skin as needed, because its “protective layer” is still intact. Many DMAE products only contain a small amount of DMAE (1-3% is the average, I use one as high at 10%, but those are rare), so the DMAE does not dramatically change the final product pH, and many are pH adjusted to around 2.0 – 6.0 ranges. Which is fine. This is not very alkaline, rather more acidic.
If the pH is left very low or very high, then irritation can be a concern. Possibly some barrier issue at high pH.
(DMAE Bitrate is a powder, no pH. When added to water it is acidic. DMAE Amine form, in distilled water is alkaline at 13 pH. But most formulas pH adjust it down to 6.0-7.0 range to make it better tolerated on the skin.)
Of course the DMAE formulation matters. If it is in an oil base it will be less stressful to the skin, then say an alcohol or witch hazel base. Which can be highly irritating.
So you would want the best least stressful formula available, with minimum irritants. Combining it with an antioxidant is also great, because this sooths the skin, and helps prevent irritation or oxidative damage that could be cause by a low pH formula. I use a DMAE antioxidant product for this reason.
Many treatments can disrupt the acid mantle, that in itself can be okay, depending on their formula. If they are high in irritants and or detergents then they have more issues and potential to cause long term concerns. So irritants and high detergent amounts should be avoided if possible for best skin health.
Of course no everyone agree, so this is also a personal issue.
Retin A can disrupt the acid mantle, but if used correctly, the disruption can be mitigated enough to be less of an issue. And it still does not “strip” the acid mantle away as a detergent will do. Rather it just
Some products can ONLY be formulated in a “irritating” base. Such as Retin A, High Percent acids, etc. But if they are formulated correctly, they have other ingredients that can help mitigate the “damage” and do not include other “extra” irritants that have no skin benefit and cause more damage to the skin barrier in its weaker state.
If used in good formulas then the amount of irritation can be dealt with by the skin, and it heals with much less issue. If you are using the product correctly, then the short term irritation issues are countered by the longterm benefits which include better skin barrier function and health overall. |
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Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:14 am |
He may be correct on the 10 pH recomendation for "best use" of the Anime form.
I am no sure on that since I personally have not researched formulation of DMAE a lot. I don't like the amine form so my product is a lower pH. I have used some amine forms, but for me the benifit vs smell, cost was not there. So I use a Bitrate version and it helps for me, less smell, lower cost.
But if he is correct, if the product is well made, and you have not already stripped the acid mantle from heavy detergents then you are probably fine with the DMAE at 10%.
I would really need to look into it more to be completely accurate. Are you susng it all over? Most ppl use DMAE to spot treat, in which case, it is less of a concern anyway for overall issues.
Part of the Vit C issue is the form of Vit C used, and its pH. If it is L-Ascorbic, then it would need a low pH 2.0 or so to be effcetive, with a recomended 10% concintration.
If applyed imediately to high 10% DMAE on the skin, then this raises the Vit C pH up. You may still get some benifit, but you will also loss some.
If you wait for the DMAE to absorb, and wait 20 min or so for pH to lower - then add the Vit C -you are not raising its pH. So your would get more C benifits.
BUT Vit C likes to go on clean skin for best penitration. So if the DMAE is in a thicker form, that also hampers the Vit C.
Vit C in a Cream base tends to be less effectve in many cases.
Vit C in other forms, not Ascorbic, are less pH sensitive, so in those cases the DMAE could be applyed first, but you still may have formulation issue, and the fact that C likes a clean base. |
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Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:56 pm |
Remember Vit C is not the only Collage builder.
A study performed upon 20 volunteers showed that after 30 days, the formation of ProCollagen, a precursor of Collagen, increased 70% (shown by skin biopsy)with Copper users, compared with 50% formation from Vitamin C and 40% due to Tretinoin
Three other studies performed by James Leyden, M.D. of the University of Pennsylvania showed the effectiveness and benefits that Copper Peptides provided in skin rejuvenation.
One also compared the GHK Copper Peptide to retinol while another compared it to Vitamin K (for eye region).
The Copper Peptide gave impressive results in both studies with little irritation.
Thee are many many many good antioxidants in a large variety for formulations and low cost that are very effective, and not pH sensitive. Certainly quite simular to Vit C in effectiveness. |
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Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:32 am |
okay if anyone has C question, PM me and I will help, if I can. If not, no worries.
For scars:
I had a 1 scar on my forehead, along my outer eye. This went from outer eye up to, and through eye brow.
It was shallow, not raised, flat but noticeable. May be 1/4 inch wide I think.
Similar to this one on Sandra Bullock but wider, and up into the brow
http://www.skinema.com/Act2Scars.html
I received it as a teen, so it was 22 years old approximately. I actually was not “trying” to spot treat it per say. I really had forgotten about it. But while treating my face, using an advanced treatment plan, I looked up one day and it was completely gone. I had had this for years, so this was not “normal” healing. It took about 6 to 9 months to remove it. Not positive since I was not monitoring it exactly.
I used mild cleansers on my skin, once a day. (low pH, mild detergent)
And I was using 10% Lactic Acid with a low pH 1.9 daily. (I was using the Diana Yvonne One at that time)- once a day for 30 minutes
Skin Biology Exfol BHA Serum twice daily. (I now use the stronger I Feel Pretty BHA/AHA blend, but the Exfol is fine also)
Super Copper Peptide Serum, from Skin Biology twice daily.
COP 2X cream once daily. (Skin Biology)
Moisterizing oil with Emu, Jojoba Hazelnut, Raspberry Seed oil and some Essential Oils added.
30%, low pH Glycolic acid from Platinum Skincare once a week all over face.
Since I was doing an advance routine at that time I had twice daily applications of Copper and exfoliates. (I was not working at the time, so was able to fit this into my schedule)
My routine was like this.
AM
Water wash with Microfiber cloth.
BHA 2%, low pH for 30 min
AHA 10 %, low pH for 30 min
Super Copper Serum all over
Moisturize with Emu, Jojoba, oils blend mixed with water
Makeup and Sunscreen
PM
Wash face with mild low pH cleanser
AHA 10 %, low pH for 30 min
Super Copper Serum all over
COP 2X Cream all over
BHA 2% lotion applied on top as a penetration enhancement agent (no exfoliation action)
Moisturize with Emu, Jojoba, oils blend mixed with water
Rest skin two days a week. (Weekend for me)
One day a week, when I remembered, I replace one AHA step with 30% AHA peel strength for 6 weeks. I tried a few brands, Glycolic and Lactic. Lactic was gentler. I have since learned I like TCA also. Glycolic is the most irritating of the three, and the least recommended option IMO.
Normally you would not use this intense program all over, though you certainly can to “spot treat” areas. Some people do use this advanced program twice daily all over face, and that’s fine too – after you build up to this level, if skin can tolerate it. It took me one year to ramp up to this level.
If I was treating a facial scar now I would do it slightly differently.
I would spot treat the area with Super Copper Serum mixed 50/50 with COP 2X. Or 2X alone if you can tolerate it. (the 2X is much stronger then the Super CP Serum, and not for the faint of heart) I would try to do this once to twice a day, based on skin tolerance, skin area, and your schedule.
Apply Lactic 10% BHA 5%, low pH serum once or twice daily. (I like the all in one from I feel pretty, but you can use two separate products with two wait times instead)
Use the I Feel Pretty lotion BHA as a push/penetration enhancement agent if needed in the PM.
Use a 12%-15% TCA or Lactic peel once a week. Platinum Skincare orwww.bestskinpeels.com, orwww.makeupartistchoice, orwww.dianayvonne.com
If skin is sensitive or you are a beginner to copper and acids this is too advanced. Though one can use this as a spot treatment only, depending on area.
And you can make adjustments with your acids, and copper strengths to make it more acceptable for a beginner. But you must proceed at a level suited for your skin.
Apply Emu before your Copper acts as a buffer to lessen irritation.
Do not add the extra BHA Push step in the PM if you are to sensitive.
Dilute Copper more and or lessen acid time on skin to lessen irritation.
Use once a day, or once every other day etc if sensitive.
Alternate acids used, alternate type and strenghths.
Many ways to work around that.
If you are using Retin A or similar products, skin will be more sensitive then normal. So use caution and common sense.
Pitted or sunken scars, or raised keloid scars will require intense treatment and take longer for results.
Some scars will not change; scars are NOT easy to treat. They do take time, patience, and usually powerful products, and still no guarantees.
Using the similar steps above I have also removed raised skin tags and raised moles on neck and body.
I have also tried RetinA, on the same scar for three years and no change. |
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Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:12 pm |
DMAE products in any form do not have any wait times in relation to its function and its pH at all.
Though Amine form is a HIGH pH, (around 10 I believe) so can affect OTHER products used after it, if they have a lower pH (copper for example, at 6.0).
Bitrate is lower pH, (4.5 - 6.0) so this is not an issue, its not really pH sensitive on its own.
Copper, DMAE, etc. are not altered when used with each other or after each other. They all have about the same pH 5.0-6.0
They do have a wait time, only in relation to absorbency on the skin, which depends on the thinness/thickness of the formula.
If you use a thin DMAE like the I Feel Pretty DMAE/Anti Oxidant – which is water like. Then really there is not much wait time.
But if your DMAE is a thicker cream or lotion, then you would wit for it to absorb. This could be as long as 15 min.
So they all use the thin to thick application order, though DMAE does like clean skin best if possible to absorb deepest. But if products used under it ARE thinner, it often will absorb well enough.
The Vit C does have a wait time of roughly 15 minute, to allow the Vit C to absorb deeply into skin while at the lower pH needed for most Vit C products. Applying something with a high pH before that 15 min wait will slow and lessen Vit C absorption levels and amounts.
I don’t really recommend any drugstore cleansers at all. Most have irritant ingredients, pore cloggers, detergent issues, or pH issues.
You can use an alcohol free irritant free toner. I know Nivea Visage is one, and Neutrogena also make a mild alcohol free toner. I don’t know the pH of either. I called the company, they could not tell me. But I believe they are 5.0 to 6.0 range. If you have pH strips you can check it. I did not have them when I used that toner. I don’t use a toner now.
You can also do a mild toner with 4 ounces of dististilled water and ½ to 1 ounce of Apple Cider Vinegar. This will be lower pH, but can be drying or irritating to some skin types. Use less vinegar as opposed to more, to lessen irritation risk.
You could also use an inexpensive AHA or BHA toner/liquid treatment which is low pH. Like the one from I Feel Pretty or Paula’s Choice Solution. But depending on your skintype this can be two irritating for daily use. This will not effectively exfoliate the skin when used in this manner. It is simply a way to lower pH before using you other pH dependant product like your Vit C.
Many oil only wipe off methods work to remove makeup, without causing pH issues, but personally I am not a fan of those methods, unless one follows with a cleanser or toner to remove all oil residue first. In many cases residue is left on the skin or in the pores, which can lead to cystic acne for those prone to this. Dry skin often can do better with this method then oily or sensitive skin.
Oil methods that are based on OIL ONLY products, with no added detergents etc. Are genbnerally around 3.0- 4.5 pH depending on the oil involved. Which is all perfectly fine. Oil pH is hard to measure with conventional test strips because of lack of water in the product. But most skin friendly oils are at the pH or the range noted above.
Face should be clean of makeup, sunscreen, and residue before applying any acids or treatments including Vit C. So your really need to wash all products off of skin before using Vit C and treatments. Water only will not normally do this. Though water with a microfiber cloth can be used for AM only washing when you are not dealing with heavy sunscreens, or foundations, or thick creams or lotions. (If your skin is not sensitive to the cloth)
I don’t use the GHK copper, that’s the first Generation Copper version. I actually use the stronger Second Gen from Skin Biology. I have never used the First Gen product – though it is supposed to be milder. But use methods/application order would be the same.
The AO from I Feel Pretty is not pH dependant on its own. Mainly its your ACIDS that are pH dependant. It is liquid so can go under all other products except your Acids and vit C – because they (acids) are pH dependant.
You would do:
Cleanse (wait 20-30 min if pH is high)
Acid (wit 30 min for aha/bha to let it exfoliate, 15 min for C) (AHA, BHA, Vit C)
Anti ox from IFP (no wait after)
Copper Serum(no wait after, except to absorb as needed)
Moisterizer lotion, cream or oil (no wait after except to absorb as needed)
Sunscreen (no wait after, except to absorb as needed)
Makeup
AO, Copper, Moisturizer none require wiat. They are not pH dependant. Layer based on thickness, with Sunscreen your last step before your foundation.
Copper can be applied to clean skin, as could AO, or Moisturizer, or Sunscreen. (if any are used alone)
The issue with cleansers – if the pH is high (over 7.0) and it has a strong detergent even if you balance the pH immediately – the damage is already done. The damage occurs immediately when you apply the detergent with a high pH to skin. It literally happens in seconds. So if that is a concern, lowering the pH as a second step is really to late to prevent damage.
Aim for a lower pH cleanser below 7.0, preferably around skins normal pH 4.5-5.0-5.5 – 6.0 there ‘bouts. You can even go lower, but don’t go above 7.0. Stay close to 5.5 range or so as possible for least irritation issues..
Use mild detergents.
If you are only concerned with lowering pH to move to your next step
- then use a mild toner, alcohol free, low pH,
- -or a low cost BHA or AHA liquid to lower the ph (be aware you are going to lose some exfoliation action here, because of the higher skin pH, but this will effectively lower pH to add a second step. Which could be another higher cost acid or other pH dependant ingredient)
- Use apple cider vinegar VERY dilute to lower pH |
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Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:38 am |
yes, you are correct on the GHK acids, they do break down easily with acids.
I had forgotten that! I don't use them, so tend to forget that important detail. Thanks for the reminder.
The GHK (first generation coppers) are more sensitive to acids in relation to stability, so should be used at differnt times of day from your acid session. (one AM one PM)
CP serum does have a small amount of BHA added, but mainly as a penitration enhancer, it does not do well as an exfoliant. Which is oine reason Skin Bio also sold the Exfol BHA gel, to use with it. The CP Serum is the Second generation acids.
With Second Gen and Vit C, the recomendation is mixed. In general it is recomended that Vit C and Copper be used at differnt times of day, 12 hours a part. This is how I use it.
But many people do use in the same session, with good results. I was remiss not to address that. But with all the other questions I was focusing on., I forgot to add in that clarifying info. |
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Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:12 am |
Okay I will try to cover it all. If I forget, or confuse you, please ask again or PM me.
GHK copper is the original product Dr P worked on and helped develop, in his early research. Eventually he went out on his own and created Skin Biology. But the original work was owned by the companys he originally worked with. So THEY developed the GHK line of Copper, which is the First generation products and milder.
Dr P, with Skin Biology developed the “stronger” Second Generation of Copper Peptides, which is what Skin Biology has been selling for years.
I guess possibly now the original Patients are now out dated, so now Dr P is also adding the milder First Generation GHK coppers to his line.
These are nice for beginners, or those with sensitive skin, or those who cannot tolerate the stronger Second Gen coppers. So they are fine for you to start with.
I have never used them myself though, so cannot comment on effectiveness.
After using up your GHK products, if skin is doing well, you can then bump up to the lower level Second Gen copper products like the Copper Serum (I you want)
I can’t comment on Epidermix since I don’t use it. I think it is a manual scrub product? I know many love it, so its working for them.
Personally I like a chemical exfoliate better. I have used a number of scrubs, and they are fine, I just personally feel a chemicial product is more effective.
A chemical exfoliate (at appropriate levels) only removes the dead skin cells, in all dips and valleys of the skin and very evenly, because it can reach into all dips etc. that fingers and scrub my not reach evenly.
A BHA can exfoliate INSIDE the pores, lessening enlarged pores, inflammation, acne, black and whiteheads etc. Enhances penetration of other products.
AHA can soften fine lines, thin thickened aged skin, brighten dullness, and at appropriate levels can help in collagen production, scaring, pigmentation issues etc. Helps other treatments penetrate better.
Acids have anti-inflammatory properties.
Can be irritating or sensitizing if overused, wrong strength, or wrong acid type. Lactic is my preferred AHA as it is less irritating compared to Glycolic.
Some people cannot tolerate acids at all even mild low pH.
They are pH dependant for optimal effectiveness.
Many brands are poorly formulated for good effectiveness, or used incorrectly.
A Manual scrub, no matter how gentle can cause fine scratching and tearing on skin surface. This can lead to aging issues, sensitivity, inflimation and minor scars.
Scrubs Can exfoliate unevenly, because it cannot reach into all areas as evenly. Can exfoliate deeper in some areas lighter in others. Can exfoliate living tissues. Cannot exfoliate inside the pores.
The scrub motion can contribute to skin pulling and sag and stretching/tearing.
Can enhance product penetration, can help brighten skin, and soften fine lines. May help some for collagen production to a lesser degree. Can exfoliate faster deeper then a low level acid on scars and damage areas. Bumping up acid strength, changing pH , type etc can give a deeper effect with acids also.
Many manual scrubs contain irritating ingredients like menthol, camphor, mint etc. Not good for skin, as it causes cellular inflimation issues, can b irritate cause opilyness, dryness, peeling dehidration.
Many times it is a personal preference, some love manual some love chemical. Both can be effective, depending on your needs. One can use either or both.
I think acne prone, oily skin or those with pore enlargement issues should conceder and effective well formulated BHA product. Manual scrubs can exserbate the problem.
Those with dull skin, fine lines, thick or UV damaged skin or needed refinement should use AHA.
Sensitive skin can have issues with either acids or scrubs. So should use either carefully and the correct type for their needs.
One can use both together, or one on one facial area and one on another. (BHA on T Zone for example)
Can be used daily, every other day, every third day or once a week – depending on needs, strength etc.
I feel the acid does help the copper penetrate better. But with GHK copper it does need to be used on a separate session. And never start acids AND copper at the same time. Start both slowly with at least two weeks between product introductions to minimize irritation and adjust dose.
Copper can help with Firmness, as can DMAE. Acids can also help because of collagen growth aid effect. Retinols can help also.
Never underestimate supplements!!!! MSM paired with a multivitamin and Vit C can really help skin overall in many ways. Lots of other good suppliments can be benificial as well.
I would love to go to Scotland. Someday I will make it! I may take you up on an order one day – but not on haggis. LOL
Is this “Clear as Mud” ??
pH is an issue because some products, like acids, that penetrate deeply into the skin and exfoliate it – work best at a specific pH. If their pH is changed they stop working.
Most other products are close to the skins normal pH – which is good, and enables them to work effectively, because they are “Skin Friendly” and absorb well without irritating or inflaming the skin. Which can alter penetration.
Cleansers are an issue, because most, by their nature are irritating and a higher pH. (also irritating) This allows them to penetrate skin fast but irritates skin. So you want to lessen that.
And because of their high pH, they alter skin pH for 20-30 minutes, making it higher then normal.
Since Acids NEED a low pH to work well, placing them on a high pH area (skin with high pH from a cleanser for example) this “neutralizes” the acid, or makes them less effective then they would be if used on “normal” skin with “normal” pH.
Acids take roughly 30 min to penetrate well and “finish” their exfoliate action. So changing their pH during that time – slows their penetration. |
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Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:42 am |
pH test strips or rolls are available in many Drugstores and healthfood stores in the USA, for testing body fluids. Often near Diabetic supplies or weight loss aides. Not sure for other countries.
Ideally you should pick up a ROLL, not the STRIPS. And a Full range product that covers 0-13, not the smaller 3.0-7.0 range roll/strip.
I like rolls better, more usable product per cost vs the individual strips. But you can certainly use strips if that is all you have available.
You can also buy them online from many many sources, often from soap making supply companies, or companies that sell home chemistry supplies.
Here's one place I have bought them from, to give you an example.
http://www.snowdriftfarm.com/phtest.html
A search on Ebay, Google and Froogle will supply many options. |
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Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:29 am |
I think there is one huge problem with this whole thread. The information about wait times is not based on any scientific articles or reliable sources.
According to the author of this thread, "info is compiled from a number of web and printed sources" and "some old posts on skin care forums".
As far as I have found, the only skin care products that certainly requires a wait time, are the vitamin A creams such as Tretinoin creams and Tazorac.
This is from the Tretinoin cream instructions:
I am currently using a 10 % vitamin C serum from SkinCeuticals, and the instructions on Melbourne Dermatology's website say nothing about wait times:
I have been using several vitamin C serums and other active serums from various brands throughout the years, and the directions for use rarely say anything about wait times. It's only mentioned some places that one should wait "a few minutes" until the serum has penetrated before applying moisturizer.
Also, I cannot recall that wait times before and after applying skin care products have been emphasized in any of the articles, blogs or excerpts from books I have read about skin care.
I must admit that I myself have been waiting, applying products, waiting again etc, but now I am wondering what I am waiting for...
It would be much appreciated if any members here will post links about skin care products and wait times from reliable sources. If such information does not exist, I think one should just follow the instructions on the products' packages. |
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Female, 40, Norway. Normal/dry skin, starting to see signs of aging. Staples: Glycolic acid cleanser, SkinCeuticals Phloretin CF, Revaleskin, NIA24. |
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Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:19 pm |
| longdonjamie - to find the pH of a product, either contact the mfg'r of it or use a pH testing strip. You can buy these on line. Buy strips that can test the whole value of pH from 0-10 and you need to test a liquid product (ie - it won't work on bar soap) |
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early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:36 am |
| foxe wrote: |
| longdonjamie - to find the pH of a product, either contact the mfg'r of it or use a pH testing strip. You can buy these on line. Buy strips that can test the whole value of pH from 0-10 and you need to test a liquid product (ie - it won't work on bar soap) |
I did a bit of research yesterday and it appears that any cleanser that is ph balanced is between 4.5-5.5 and won't interfere with the acid mantle of the skin or cause issues with what you apply after!
Bar soaps however are at lowest 7 and usually 9-9+ highly alkaline!
HTH
DM |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:22 am |
Here's a summary of all that I know about pH and skin and somebody please let me know if I am off-base:
- pH is important when using certain acid based serums like Vitamin C, because a certain pH level is required in order for the product to penetrate the skin properly (believe it needs a pH under 3)
- If you use a product with a higher pH too soon after apply the serum, you could make the serum less effective since it "mixes" with the higher pH product.
- with topical products used to protect or repair the outer layer of the skin, ideally you want a product with a pH close to that of your own skin.
Again, this is the summary, please edit/add/delete as appropriate to make this correct.
Thanks, BF |
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