Green Tea, Acids, Vitamin C & Chelators DIY Discussion
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free skin care · Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:42 am

Further to the discussion about combining Green Tea with Acids - Green Tea actually contains a similar amount of Ascorbic Acid as a lemon, so I'm not really understanding why it would be harmful to use a Vitamin C serum followed by a Green Tea serum. I'm also using a Green Tea serum before applying Retin-A - hope this is ok too.

free skin care · Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:28 pm

Keliu wrote:

Further to the discussion about combining Green Tea with Acids - Green Tea actually contains a similar amount of Ascorbic Acid as a lemon, so I'm not really understanding why it would be harmful to use a Vitamin C serum followed by a Green Tea serum. I'm also using a Green Tea serum before applying Retin-A - hope this is ok too.

Ok, so I've emailed my sister about this. She is an analytical research chemist with a PHd in bio-chemistry and currently works on stem cell research at the Rockafeller Institute in New York.

This was her reply:

There is absolutely NO reason to avoid the use of green tea and acids together. If you think about it, the stomach contains hydrochloric acid and many people in different cultures drink green tea. Furthermore, people sometimes include a wedge of lemon or lime with their green tea when drinking it. Manufacturers produce green tea products which also include green tea and lemon or lime. No one has ever said that the acid cancels the benefits of the green tea as an antioxidant. No one has said that it is harmful either. So my guess is green tea with acids is perfectly okay for your skin as a topical.

Green tea is a chelator; it binds to metals within the body (hopefully the unnecessary metals/minerals). This is one of the reasons green tea is applied to the skin after radiation therapy in cancer patients. As far as I know, There are many skin care products which contain green tea and some form of an acid. I don't see any special chelating agent used in most of them.

Here's a link to a study she sent me:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL%26_udi=B6VRJ-4SK6314-1 which states:

It was found that the mixture of the green tea polyphenol, vitamin E and vitamin C could act synergistically to protect lipid peroxidation. Kinetic and mechanistic studies on the antioxidation process revealed that this antioxidant synergism was due to the regeneration of vitamin E by the green tea polyphenol and the regeneration of the latter by vitamin C.

free skin care · Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:44 pm

Ingredients for Alpha Hydroxy Souffle:

Water, Glycolic Acid, Ammonium Hydroxide, Cetyl Alcohol, Propylene Glycol, Dicaprylyl Carbonate, Stearic Acid, Peg 40 Stearate, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Polysorbate 60, Steareth 2, Hydrolyzed Lupine Protein (Peptides), Green Tea Extract, Panthanol (Vitamin B5), Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E), Xanthan Gum, PVM/MA Decadiene Crosspolymer, Imidazolidinyl Urea, BHT

I can't see any Disodium EDTA in the above - maybe there's another type of chelating agent there, but I can't find it. And as Packratmack pointed out in a previous post, your pretreatment serum contains green tea and acids but no chelator - so I find this a bit confusing.

Also, concerning MY use of Acids and Green Tea - I'm not mixing them together, I'm applying them separately (with a wait time in between) - so I'm presuming this is ok. But if my face starts to disintegrate, I'll let you all know!

EC413 - I'm toning my skin with the green tea made from teabags, then applying a DIY green tea extract serum before my treatments - just making sure I've got all bases covered!

free skin care · Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:58 pm

Cellex-C Fade Away Gel:

Glucosamine HCL, ascorbic acid, acetyl tyrosine, zinc sulfate, green tea extract, sodium hyaluronate, cucumber extract, thyme extract.

Peter Thomas Roth Mega Rich Intensive Anti-Aging Cellular Creme:

Water, Glycerin, Acetyl Hexapeptide-3 (Argireliner), C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Glyceryl Stearate, Palmitoyl Tripeptide-3, Isocetyl Stearate, Cetyl Alcohol, Panthenol (Pro Vitamin B5), Persea Gratissima (Avocado) Oil, PEG-100 Stearate,Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E), Propylene Glycol Monostearate, Lanolin Oil, Algae Extract, Lactic Acid, Malic Acid, Trimethylstearyloxy Silane, Stearyl Alcohol, Hexamethyldisiloxane, Rosa Canina Fruit Oil, Viola Tricolor Extract, Foeniculum Vulgare (Fennel) Seed Extract, Superoxide Dismutase, Linoleic Acid, Oliec Acid, Retinly Palmitate (Vitamin A), Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Camellia Oleifera (Green Tea) Seed Extract, Camellia Sinensis (White Tea) Leaf Extract, Echinacea Angustifolia Extract, Sodium Ascorbyl Phosphate, Wheat Amino Acids, Sodium Hyaluronate, Bisabolol, Vitis Vinifera (Grape) Seed Extract, Centalla Asiatic Extract, Lanolin Alcohol, Hydrolyzed Elastin, Ascorbyl Methylsilanol Pectinate, Tocopheryl Linoleate, Collagen, Butylene Glycol, Carbomer, Palmitoyl Pentapeptide-3, Palmitoyl Oligopeptide, Polysorbate 20, Sodium PCA, Histidine HCL, Dimethicone, Diazolidinyl Urea, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Essential Oils.

Replenix Retinol Plus Smoothing Serum 3X:

Cyclopentasiloxane, Dimethicone Crosspolymer, Cyclomethicone, PEG/PPG 18/18 Dimethicone, Caffeine, Camellia Sinensis (Green Tea) Polyphenols, Retinol, Polysorbate-20, Purified Water, Hyaluronic Acid.

ALPHA HYDROX Souffle 12% AHA:

Water, Glycolic Acid, Ammonium Hydroxide, Cetyl Alcohol, Propylene Glycol, Dicaprylyl Carbonate, Stearic Acid, Peg 40 Stearate, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Polysorbate 60, Steareth 2, Hydrolyzed Lupine Protein (Peptides), Green Tea Extract, Panthanol (Vitamin B5), Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E), Xanthan Gum, PVM/MA Decadiene Crosspolymer, Imidazolidinyl Urea, BHT

I believe (and this is only MY opinion) that the above-noted cosmetic formulators know what they are doing. None of the products listed include any EDTA, but they all contain green tea plus an acid.

"EDTA (ethylenediamine tetraacetic acid) and its salts are widely used and can be found in moisturizers, skin care and cleansing products, personal cleanliness products, bath soaps, shampoos and conditioners, hair dyes, hair bleaches, and many other product types. Chelating agents, also called sequestrants, are ingredients that have the ability to bind with and inactivate metallic ions to prevent their adverse effects on the STABILITY or APPEARANCE of cosmetic products. These ingredients form complexes with calcium, magnesium, and iron, which allows for better foaming and cleaning performance of cosmetics and personal care products. The binding of metal ions helps prevent the deterioration of cosmetics and personal care products. It also helps to maintain clarity, protect fragrance compounds, and prevent rancidity." (from CosmeticsINFO.org)

free skin care · Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:20 pm

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7588783.html

The above link is for Flavinoid Derivative Patent 7588783 available from free patents online. Within the Description of the patent there is a paragraph which mentions chelating agents (part of which has been cited earlier). I have taken the liberty of modifying the presentation of that information, converting it to point form for ease of understanding. I have also eliminated the examples cited for ease of reading. The paragraph from this patent is as follows:

There are many proven substances known from the specialist literature which may be present as ANTIOXIDANTS, for example:

-amino acids and derivatives thereof
-imidazoles and derivatives thereof
-peptides and derivatives thereof
-carotinoids, carotenes and derivatives thereof
-chlorogenic acid and derivatives thereof
-lipoic acid and derivatives thereof
-aurothioglucose, propylthiouracil and other thiols and salts thereof
-dilauryl thiodipropionate, distearyl thiodipropionate, thiodipropionic acid and derivatives thereof
-sulfoximine compounds in very low tolerated doses
**(metal) chelating agents (for example α-hydroxy fatty acids, palmitic acid, phytic acid, lactoferrin)**
-α-hydroxy acids
-humic acid
-bile acid
-bile extracts
-bilirubin
-biliverdin
-EDTA
-EGTA and derivatives thereof
-unsaturated fatty acids and derivatives thereof
-vitamin C and derivatives
-tocopherols and derivatives
-vitamin A and derivatives
-coniferyl benzoate of benzoin resin
-rutinic acid and derivatives thereof
-α-glycosyl rutin
-ferulic acid
-furfurylideneglucitol
-carnosine
-butylhydroxytoluene
-butylhydroxy-anisole
-nordihydroguaiaretic acid
-trihydroxybutyrophenone
-quercetin
-uric acid and derivatives thereof
-mannose and derivatives thereof
-zinc and derivatives thereof
-selenium and derivatives thereof
-stilbenes and derivatives thereof.

As you can see, the metal chelating agents cited in the patent are α-hydroxy fatty acids, palmitic acid, phytic acid, and lactoferrin.

The above list is comprised of known antioxidants, not metal chelators. Hope that clarifies things.

free skin care · Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:00 am

Sorry Lacy53, but you are wrong again in your haste + zealousness to prove me wrong...

This is the patent I referred to, which the list is copied + pasted from;

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7314634.html

And this is one of the formulas in the claim;

1. A method of treating fine lines and wrinkles in skin by topical application, consisting essentially of the steps of: a. preparing a composition for topical application containing a therapeutically effective amount of at least one polyphenol derived from green tea dispersed in a suitable dermatologically acceptable vehicle, said composition comprising a cream having the following ingredients with said ingredients being provided in the below listed percentage by weight:
Ingredient %

Water 87.57
Carbomer 0.40
Methylparaben 0.10
Tetrasodium EDTA 0.12
Triethanolamine 0.50
Lecithin 5.00
Behenyl Alcohol 1.00
Stearic Acid 0.10
Sodium Hyaluronate 0.01
Glyceryl Stearate 1.00
C12-16 Alcohols 1.00
Germall II 0.30
Palmitic Acid 1.00
Bisabolol 0.10
Polysorbate 20 0.20
90% Polyphenol Green Tea Extract 0.25
Cucumber Extract 1.00
Chamomile Extract 0.10
Soy Phospholipids 0.25;

There are many examples in the patent, and ALL include EDTA, acids + green tea.

I would appreciate it very much if you would take any continuation of this into a new thread, and leave this thread for those who are interested in discussing LED's.. In any event, I for one am done with proving my point on chelating agents.

Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:23 pm

I just wanted to add a comment about chelators. From my understanding, one reason chelators might be needed in a formulation is to bind to any existing metal ions (which are often present in plants, including green tea) so that they cannot negatively react with the antioxidant (thereby destabilizing it) or other actives. Not all antioxidants react with metal ions, but L-ascorbic acid does. This is a known fact.

It's safest not to mix L-ascorbic with substances that contain metal ions, unless you know what you're doing.

If you are attempting to make your own recipe, you'd probably want to first add in the chelator and mix it up to give it time to do its work before adding in the reactive antioxicant.

Just my 2 cents.

free skin care · Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:28 am

DarkMoon wrote:

The JB not only contains no EDTA or other chelating agents I see they contain acids one contains vitamin C. Other base creams sold by many suppliers often purchased from here also don't GOW being one example?

From the recipe;

[For a base any of these can be used; After much trial and error with preservatives and emulsifiers, I've decided to take the easy way out and use the following as my bases.) This also cuts out an additional 2 or 3 formulating steps.

CVS brand Perfecting Cream (Olay knock off that's almost identical)
Juice Beauty Serums (any will do)
Base Cream (all suppliers have it) ]

Olay Regenerist ingredients; (CVS had the identical 'knockoff' ages ago when the recipe was posted)

Olay Regenerist:

PEG 100 Stearate, Water, Cyclopentasiloxane, Glycerin, Polyethylene, Niacinamide (Vitmain B3), Dimethicone Crosspolymer, Dimethicone, Stearyl Dimethicone, Propylene Glycol, Butylene Glycol, Panthenol, Palmitoyl Pentapeptide 3, Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E), Lavandula Angustifolia (Lavendar) Extract, Arnica Montana Flower Extract, Camellia Sinensis Leaf Extract, Alanine, Arginine, Betaine, Glycine, Lysine, Proline, Serine, Threonine, Glutamic Acid, Sodium PCA, Sorbitol, PEG 10 Dimethicone/Vinyl Dimethicone Crosspolymer, Cetyl Ricinoleate, Disodium EDTA, Phenoxyethanol, PEG 10 Dimethicone, Benzyl Alcohol, Butylparaben, Ethylparaben, Isobutylparaben, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Red 40, Blue 1, Fragrance

Juice Beauty Antioxidant Serum;

Ingredients
organic juices of vitis vinifera (white grape) juice, citrus aurantium dulcis (orange) juice & aloe barbadensis leaf juice, glycerin, vitis vinifera (grape) seed oil, organic essential fatty acids of oenothera biennis (evening primrose), linum usitatissimum (linseed) seed & borago officinali (borage) seed, organic algae extract, ubiquinone (coenzyme Q10), thioctic acid (alpha-lipoic acid), magnesium ascorbyl phosphate (vitamin C), dipeptide-2, palmitoyl tetrapeptide-3, tocopheryl acetate & tocopherol (vitamin E), retinyl palmitate (vitamin A), sclerotium gum, phenoxyethanol, sodium hydroxide, benzyl alcohol, disodium edta, phospholipids, hyaluronic acid, dimethylaminoethanol (DMAE), potassium sorbate, amyris balsamifera & litsea cubeba (may chang) pure essential oils.

Juice Beauty Soothing Serum;

Ingredients
organic juices of vitis vinifera (white grape) juice, rubus idaeus (red raspberry) juice & aloe barbadensis leaf juice, glycerin, organic cucumis sativus (cucumber) extract, organic botanical extracts of glycyrrhiza glabra (licorice) root, arctostaphylos uva ursi (bearberry) leaf, rubus idaeus (red raspberry) leaf, calendula officinalis flower & matricaria chamomilla flower, organic algae extract, vitis vinifera (grape) seed oil, organic essential fatty acids of oenothera biennis (evening primrose), linum usitatissimum (linseed) seed & borago officinali (borage) seed, organic sesamum indicum (sesame) seed oil, tocopherol & tocopheryl acetate (vitamin E), panthenol (vitamin B5), magnesium ascorbyl phosphate (vitamin C), phospholipids, retinyl palmitate (vitamin A), hesperidin methyl chalcone (vitamin P), potassium sorbate, hyaluronic acid, sclerotium gum, phenoxyethanol, benzyl alcohol, disodium EDTA, sodium hydroxide, limonene, linalool, lavandula angustifolia, tanacetum annuum (blue chamomile) & anthemis nobilis (roman chamomile) pure essential oils.

Juice Beauty Blemish Clearing Serum (Best for oily goils + boys.. Very Happy

)

Ingredients
organic juices of pyrus malus (apple) juice, citrus medica limonum (lemon) juice & aloe barbadensis leaf juice, organic raw cane sugar (glycolic), salix alba (willow bark) extract, glycerin, organic botanical extracts of taraxacum officinale (dandelion) leaf, melissa offficinalis (lemon balm) leaf, salvia officinalis (sage) leaf & camellia sinensis (green tea) leaf, organic algae extract, ubiquinone (coenzyme Q10), magnesium ascorbyl phosphate (vitamin C), tocopheryl acetate (vitamin E), retinyl palmitate (vitamin A), panthenol (vitamin B5), allantoin, phospholipids, sodium hydroxide, sclerotium gum, phenoxyethanol, benzyl alcohol, potassium sorbate, tetrasodium edta, xanthan gum, lavandula angustifolia & commiphora myrrha pure essential oils.

As for the base creams sold at formulating sites, they all have more than enough preservatives as is. Also keep in mind that the vitamin E + Retinol in the recipe act as chelators as well....

To all reading this; I would like to point out that way back in August of 2008 when I was asked to post this (and other) recipe's, I made it perfectly clear it was a hobby for me, and everybody should of course do research in case I overlooked any contraindications etc, etc... And also to get to know the actives and what was compatible to individual skin types/problems/concerns... I have said many times that I am learning along with everybody else, and we all have much to learn.

I am not a cosmetic chemist or formulator, never pretended to be, and I think it's quite unfair, that even after I've proved myself over and over again on this particular subject, these disingenuous questions from the same couple of members, are allowed to continue... (It's clear to me that it's a personal attack, and that is very sad.. Sad

)

free skin care · Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:46 am

Kassy_A wrote:

Alpha Hydroxy Souffle is a very stable formulation, and not prone to oxidation....In fact this particular cream gets stronger as time goes on ...

This statement confuses me completely. I have always learned that antioxidants are susceptible to breakdown when exposed to light and air. The Alpha Hydroxy Souffle is packaged in (what appears to me from the pictures at least) a clear or somewhat translucent, wide-mouthed jar. In order to use it you must expose a large surface area of the product to air. Normally antioxidants are packaged in opaque bottles, or at least brown or blue glass bottles (which limits the amount of light penetration).

If a product is stable, how can it get stronger over time? I have always thought that stability means no change within a product; no degradation and no molecular changes which alter the potency of the ingredients.

Is there a special ingredient in this product which stabilizes the formulation? If so, which ingredient is it? I know the high molecular weight PEGs help stabilize glycolic acid, but wouldn't the packaging negate some of the benefits of adding this ingredient?

free skin care · Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:26 pm

Mary Claire,

I could not agree with you more.

Kassy had been very generous to share the results of her intellectual work(to come up with truly working recipes takes a lot of creativity - not just what GOOGLE search returns), results of the experimentation (she tried many and posted only the ones that worked for her) and advice.

While it is very easy to sit on the sides and pick on every word it really is not a welcome contribution.

Nor is to "cut and paste" the results of the google search - we all know how to use a computer and can manage that ourselves.

What is invaluable is when a person freely shares what had worked for her and she has her beautiful skin to prove it.

I have over 10 books on Aromatherapy and nothing I tried had worked. Every Kassy's suggestion had worked beautifully for my skin.

If you disagree with her opinion you can just state your point and if anyone is interested they will pay attention, and if not - it is their decision and their skin.

So, please, if you can not contribute in a positive way - it would be wise to just lurk and keep quite.

If you have a legitimate question - please, reread your post and see if it may sound offensive to anyone, and if yes - please, rephrase.

It is not the 1st time it happened (same players), but I sincerely hope it is the last and that the moderators would not have to resort to harsher actions (I have seen several contributing members banned for inability to correctly interact with others - as a result everyone had lost).

Best wishes to all!

free skin care · Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:07 pm

I think that Kassy has spent much of her time trying and succeeding in helping members of this forum, through both her posts and answering private messages. I dont think that any person on this planet can be perfect and expected to be right every time - this isnt Kassys paid job......she is helping people!
I have sat back and studied as the same posters seem to follow her and try and 'trip' her up.... then profess innocence when questioned over it. Im sure many people on here feel the same as me over this.
Dark Moon et al..... please refrain from the constant nit picking...........it is becoming very tiresome and there is more than an element of bullying to it all.

free skin care · Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:20 pm

For purely selfish reasons, I respectfully request that no one on this forum tick off Kassy and scare her away. I love her DIY recipes and all of the wonderful advice, suggestions, and information that she shares. It would be a shame to lose all that she contributes to this forum.

Of course we can disagree as long as we do it respectfully.

Darkmoon, sometimes things do appear differently in writing than they were intended. I, personally, have offended people that way before without meaning to. Thank you for clearing things up in your last post.

free skin care · Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:21 pm

Sigma, well said.

The forum should be supportive not combative. It isn't helpful with the tone of many posts and I believe it also keeps others from posting for fear being put down.

This type of childish behaviour is not good for the forum and I hope it stops.

free skin care · Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:58 pm

The purpose of this thread is to discuss one statement, that being "when an acid is exposed to a metal ion, the interaction causes *pro* oxidation, which is very harmful to skin".

No one is questioning anyone's ability to to mix up DIY creams; no one is questioning anyone's credentials; no one is challenging anyone's helpfulness to EDS members. All that is being asked is where this knowledge comes from, and of course a simple explanation.

This is what I do know, from reading many threads at EDS:

1) Many of us here use a C product in the morning which contains LAA (that's an acid). We then layer over it a non-chemical sunscreen usually composed of zinc oxide and/or titanium oxide (which contain minerals). Some go further and apply mineral makeup, which may contain more metals (including mica and iron oxides). The above statement suggests that we are harming our skin because we are using both an acid and metals at the same time (unless of course a chelating agent is included somewhere).

2) Some people prefer to use an AHA or BHA product under mineral sunscreen and/or mineral makeup. Once again, acids are being used with metals. According to the above statement, this results in prooxidation.

3) Skin is naturally acidic; most formulators assume a pH of approximately 5.5 for adults. Does this mean that ANY minerals applied to the skin result in prooxidative damage?

4) Many members here use thermal spring water from companies such as Avene and LRP. These companies assure us that minerals are good for our skin. There is no mention of prooxidation that I am aware of. I have never seen a warning not to use those products with an LAA product.

5) As I noted before, there are well-known companies who formulate with acids and green tea (which contains trace metals) but they do not include any chelators such as EDTA derivatives. Are these companies formulating products which in the long term will damage our skin?

I think (and this is only my opinion) that if we knew the source of this assertion then our questions would be answered. The scientific data suggests that acids and green tea act in synergy (which is contrary to the statement that when an acid is exposed to a metal ion, the interaction causes *pro* oxidation, which is very harmful to skin). Only one person at EDS can answer this question, so we ask.

Hope that clarifies the issue somewhat.

free skin care · Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:22 pm

faeriedust wrote:

Lacy do you even use any skincare products? Please tell us what you use. All you ever do in this forum is provide us with chunks of information to either show how knowledgeble you are or to dissect everything Kassy says. It's getting old.
Is this forum becoming a debate? I've always thought a forum is to share reviews on products we've tried, make recommendations and not this.

Yes, of course I use skincare products. Personally I use LAA, glycolic acid, niacinimide, retinol, matrixyl and copper peptides; I also use a few oils. I do not however make my own products; I simply admit that I do not know enough about chemistry and formulating. I do not believe that the ingredients available to the public on DIY sites are exactly the same quality as those used by the major manufacturers (that is just my opinion); I have concerns about home-made products and preservatives and sanitation. I am more comfortable buying my skincare products, for those reasons. I have contributed some of this information on previous product review threads, so I do post more than research BTW.

I provide information so that others may learn; I read all the threads here so I may learn from others. I have no intention of "showing how intelligent" I am; rather it is my intention to inform. The intelligence is rightfully attributed to those who actually do the research ... I am little more than a messenger.

I question what I do not understand, regardless of who says it. I provide research when the science is contrary to information provided here. I see no debate; rather, I see discussion and sharing information. No one here is an expert but whatever we state (unless it is a personal opinion) should have some backing in currently known fact.

I hope this answers your questions.

free skin care · Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:14 pm

Not moi but I will provide you with some information I have read.

Green tea contains four major catechins, which are epigallocatechin-3-gallate (EGCG), that represents approximately 59% of the total of catechins; epigallocatechin (EGC) (19% approximately); epicatechin-3-gallate (ECG) (13.6% approximately); and epicatechin (EC) (6.4% approximately).

Matcha (sometimes called Japanese green tea powder)is generally considered to be the best source of catechins. It is produced from the young,new leaves of the plant, dried and then the veins and the stem of the leaf are removed; finally the dried leaf is stone-ground into a powder. The result is a bright green product.

For most green tea powder, the whole leaf (including the veins and stem) are ground. Mature leaves are also used. The mature leaves contain fewer catechins.

Oxidation is always a concern when processing the green tea into a powder. Apparently if the product is brownish in colour and smells like hay, that is an indication that oxidation has occurred.

I also wanted to add the following about the mineral content in green tea. The primary metals/minerals found in green tea are Chromium, Magnesium, Selenium and Zinc. While the absolute levels vary according to type of plant and growing conditions, generally speaking the levels found in green tea are extremely low, measure in micrograms and nanograms. (micro mean one-millionth; nano means one-billionth).

BTW green tea also contains also contains carotenoids, tocopherols, and ascorbic acid (vitamin C).

Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:04 pm

Skippie wrote:

moi,

Do you think this would qualify as a pure EGCG/EGC extract?

Nice that they included a content breakdown in the item description.

Assay:
Polyphenols 98.32% (UV)
EGCG 50.49% (HPLC)
EGC 11.65% (HPLC)
EC 4.74% (HPLC)
GCG 3.59% (HPLC)
ECG 11.76% (HPLC)
Catechins 83.04 (HPLC) Caffeine 0.62% (HPLC)
Identification: Positive
Mesh size: 80mesh
Loss on Drying: 3.25%
Sulphate Ash: 0.19%
Heavy Metals: <10ppm
Lead: <2 ppm
Arsenic: <2 ppm
Total plate Count: <1000 cfu/g
Yeast & Mold: <100cfu/g
E.Coli: Negative
Salmonella: Negative

I'm not sure if 10ppm for the heavy metals is considered high or not, but I'd use a chelator with this.

It might be very hard or impossible to find a pure polyphenol extract available for purchase.

Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:21 pm

I thought there was some interesting info in this patent that might be helpful to DIYers incorporating green tea:
http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20090017078

free skin care · Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:50 pm

moi wrote:

Nice that they included a content breakdown in the item description.

Assay:
Polyphenols 98.32% (UV)
EGCG 50.49% (HPLC)
EGC 11.65% (HPLC)
EC 4.74% (HPLC)
GCG 3.59% (HPLC)
ECG 11.76% (HPLC)
Catechins 83.04 (HPLC) Caffeine 0.62% (HPLC)
Identification: Positive
Mesh size: 80mesh
Loss on Drying: 3.25%
Sulphate Ash: 0.19%
Heavy Metals: <10ppm
Lead: <2 ppm
Arsenic: <2 ppm
Total plate Count: <1000 cfu/g
Yeast & Mold: <100cfu/g
E.Coli: Negative
Salmonella: Negative

I'm not sure if 10ppm for the heavy metals is considered high or not, but I'd use a chelator with this.

Not sure if this is informative to you, but the EPA has established an upper level of 15 ppb (parts per billion) for Lead, and 10 ppb for Arsenic in household drinking water.

The green tea powder noted above measures the heavy metal contaminants in parts per million. Translating the EPA standards to ppm, the allowable levels would be 0.015 for Lead and 0.010 for Arsenic.

(information taken from the United States Environmental Protection Agency website)

free skin care · Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:23 am

Hi all, I'm still bobbing around on the ocean and my internet connection tends to come and go but I'm following this thread with interest.

As Lacy pointed out earlier, we are having a discussion on the interaction of ingredients in cosmetic solutions, specifically Green Tea and Acids. Anybody who has any pertinent information to share should be allowed to do so without fear of recrimination or being accused of making personal attacks on other members.

There has been a disturbing trend on the Forum lately for some members to be completely intolerant of any differing opinions to their own. I think the Dr. Schultz and Facial Exercises discussion was an appalling example of this where we had a well known doctor using his own name (not a screen name), standing by his reputation to make his point, who was completely vilified by some members. I'm bringing this up because I've received a number of PMs from both old and new members who have expressed their desire to comment on issues but are becoming too frightened to do so for fear of a backlash. My advice to them was that this is a democratic forum and we are all entitled to express our opinions and ask questions.

Anyone who has taken part in any kind of academic study knows that the main criteria is to have an enquiring mind - students are encouraged to research and ask questions. Therefore, I find the "burn the books" mentality now being expressed as completely inappropriate. When Bethany was an active member of this Forum she was well known for researching everything - her research into Dermarolling was much appreciated by everyone and is now contained in a "sticky" thread. Nobody ever referred to her as a "troll" or found her penchant for studies annoying.

Of course, nothing in science is set in concrete. We've had discussions in the past on the use of Copper Peptides and Vitamin C. Dr. Pickhart says that they should not be used together, however, Dr. Lesley Bauman (I think it's her, correct me if I'm wrong) says that they can. We should be able to discuss both differences in opinion without resulting to name calling and feelings of persecution - the same applies to this discussion.

As a keen DIYer, I have many questions about my own formulations. I worry that I should be using a penetration enhancer or a preservative etc etc. I also worry about adding ingredients into OTC products - how do we know that the ingredients we add won't have an adverse reaction of some kind and render the product useless. It is not for no reason that EDS has its own disclaimer at the head of the DIY thread.

So with all of the above in mind, I will point out this paragraph in the study that Havanah directed us to:

[0002]Many polyphenols, especially the green tea catechins, however, are very unstable at room temperature and are oxidized and break down within days, especially in the presence of water (1). In order to assure the stability of polyphenols in topical mixtures, it is possible to formulate such mixtures without water (anhydrous), and to thereby increase the stability of the polyphenols. Other antioxidants such as vitamin C will add to the stabilizing effect. Plant oils, either saturated or unsaturated, are commonly used as a base in a variety of commercial topical mixtures, but polyphenols are poorly soluble in these oils. Many polyphenols, especially the green tea extracts, and more especially green tea extracts which have been enriched for polyphenols, do not solubilize or disperse evenly in anhydrous topical mixtures composed primarily of oils or waxes.

This study is saying that Vitamin C will actually help stabilize the Green Tea. So can we now have an intelligent discussion on this without people taking sides and making unfounded accusations?

I'll get back up on deck now and continue my swimming and sunbaking - which no amount of Green Tea is going to save my skin from the consequences of. Laughing

ETA: The various creams and gels formulated in the above study posted by Havanah all contain Green Tea and an Acid. The Green Tea has been incorporated with oils - which especially interests me.

Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:54 am

Keliu wrote:

So with all of the above in mind, I will point out this paragraph in the study that Havanah directed us to:

[0002]Many polyphenols, especially the green tea catechins, however, are very unstable at room temperature and are oxidized and break down within days, especially in the presence of water (1). In order to assure the stability of polyphenols in topical mixtures, it is possible to formulate such mixtures without water (anhydrous), and to thereby increase the stability of the polyphenols. Other antioxidants such as vitamin C will add to the stabilizing effect. Plant oils, either saturated or unsaturated, are commonly used as a base in a variety of commercial topical mixtures, but polyphenols are poorly soluble in these oils. Many polyphenols, especially the green tea extracts, and more especially green tea extracts which have been enriched for polyphenols, do not solubilize or disperse evenly in anhydrous topical mixtures composed primarily of oils or waxes.

This study is saying that Vitamin C will actually help stabilize the Green Tea.

Do you think the type of vitamin C matters? They are using ascorbyl palmitate (vitamin ester C) in the formulations described.

There's also this bit from wikipedia regarding pH:

In alkaline solutions (pH > 8 ) GTC (green tea catechins) is rather unstable; in acidic solutions (pH < 4), however, GTC shows excellent stability. The stability in alkaline solutions varies between four components of GTC in green tea extracts. Recent study demonstrates that EGCG and EGC is more unstable than EC and ECG in a basic solution, giving an explanation to the fact that EGCG and EGC do not circulate in the basic sodium phosphate buffer fluid of human body [2].

In a high temperature environment, GTC is not stable: an epimerization change is likely to occur, because heating results in the conversion from EGCG to GCG [2]. Thus it is considered inappropriate to infuse green tea or its extracts with overheated water.

Which brings me to another question: does this mean that tepid water should be used when making a "green tea" solution (whether by tea bag, extract, matcha powder, etc.) for use in conjunction with LED?

Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:52 am

DarkMoon wrote:

Thanks Lacey,
I wasn't sure of the acceptable amounts, but the ones listed seemed frighteningly high to me!

DM

These quantities do seem high, and it makes me wonder what the levels are in the green tea that we brew to drink, and apply to skin before AALS.

I tried to find a chemical Assay of plain brewed green tea, but couldn't find one. You probably have to factor in the conditions of the soil and environment where the plant was grown, and also how processed. There are so many variables.

In that light, it would be best to use a high-quality organic tea.

free skin care · Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:49 pm

moi wrote:

DarkMoon wrote:

Thanks Lacey,
I wasn't sure of the acceptable amounts, but the ones listed seemed frighteningly high to me!

DM

These quantities do seem high, and it makes me wonder what the levels are in the green tea that we brew to drink, and apply to skin before AALS.

I tried to find a chemical Assay of plain brewed green tea, but couldn't find one. You probably have to factor in the conditions of the soil and environment where the plant was grown, and also how processed. There are so many variables.

In that light, it would be best to use a high-quality organic tea.

I too have looked for information on brewed tea metal content and have been unable to find anything specifically for green tea in isolation.

I have seen studies done where the amounts of metals in brewed tea (in general) have been done though. I will summarize the findings here for you:

In a study done in Pakistan of teas widely available there, distilled water was used to prepare the tea solutions (not local water supplies). The authors conclude that only a small part of the "heavy metal content" of the tea get into the tea extract; a higher proportion remain in the tea residuals since they are insoluble. The metals found in teas in this study include Mn, Fe, Zn, Cu, Co, Pb, Cr, Ni, Cd, Na and K as well as the toxic heavy metals Pb and Cd. They discovered that the most abundant metal found in tea extract was K; the lowest concentrations were Pb and Cd. Solubility of metals ranged from 0.0% to 95%

In a study done in Saudi Arabia, various tea brand were tested for Mn, Fe, Zn, Cu, Ni, Co, Pb, and Cd. They found that Chinese green tea possessed the highest content of metals. Solubility of the metals ranged from 0.0 - 48%; lowest rates of solubility were for the toxic heavy metal Pb and Cd. Distilled water was used to prepared the brews. In the brewed beverages, the toxic heavy metals were undetectable by the testing equipment used in the study.

A summary of the metal content of green tea prepared by Cabrera et al states that minerals and trace elements, which comprise 5% of the dry weight of green tea, include Ca, Mg, Cr, Mn, Fe, Cu, Zn, Mo, Se, Na, P, Co, Sr, Ni, K, F and Al. Due to the great importance of the mineral presence in tea, many studies have been carried out to determine their levels in green tea leaves and their infusions. For example, Costa et al observed large variations of the mineral content (Al, Ca, Mg and Mn) in green tea from different origins. Fernández-Cáceres et al. determined the content of Al, Ba, Ca, Cu, Fe, K, Mg, Mn, Na, Sr, Ti, and Zn in 46 tea samples, and no clear differences were found between mineral content of green and black teas. Shu et al. observed the great variations among different tea varieties in accumulating fluoride and aluminum. Fung et al. indicated that black tea had higher Al and F concentrations than green tea. Xu et al. reported that the content of Se in green teas was greatly increased by foliar application of Se-enriched fertilizers; moreover, the selenium-enriched green tea exhibited significantly higher antioxidant activity than regular green tea. Belitz and Grosh (or Grosch) found that the mean composition (%) of minerals in dry green tea and black tea was 5%; they calculated that in tea infusions the mineral content was 4.5%

From all of this research, I would conclude that the mineral content of green tea in general will vary due to geographic location and local growing conditions (soil, air, water and use of fertilizers). It appears that when tea is brewed, most or all of the dangerous heavy metals remain as solid particles in the dregs (at least Pb and Cd appear to be insoluble). I could see nothing to indicate the presence of Arsenic in green tea(but of course the listed studies are not exhaustive). Comments were made about the metal content of Chinese green tea above, but I do not know if the metals referred to were dangerous or beneficial. Cabrera notes that "green tea catechins may have an affinity for iron, and green tea infusions can cause a significant decrease of the Fe bioavailability from the diet; the interaction between tea and iron can be mitigated by the addition of lemon".

Symbols used in this post:

Al (Aluminium); Ba (Barium); Ca (Calcium); Cd (Cadmium); Co (Cobalt); Cr (Chromium); Cu (Copper); Fe (Iron); F (Fluorine); K (Potassium/Kalium); Mg (Magnesium); Mn (Manganese); Mo (Molybdenum); Na (Sodium); Ni (Nickel); P (Phosporous); Pb (Lead); Se (Selenium); Sr (Strontium); Ti (Titanium); Zn (Zinc)

free skin care · Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:56 pm

sister sweets wrote:

Actually I thought everyone was stating their opinion (both sides and including Dr. Shultz) and that is a democratic process.

In my opinion, that thread got ugly, and out of hand. I completely stopped watching it, even though I was interested as I was tired of the doctor bashing.

free skin care · Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:03 pm

Keliu wrote:

Hi all, I'm still bobbing around on the ocean and my internet connection tends to come and go but I'm following this thread with interest.

As Lacy pointed out earlier, we are having a discussion on the interaction of ingredients in cosmetic solutions, specifically Green Tea and Acids. Anybody who has any pertinent information to share should be allowed to do so without fear of recrimination or being accused of making personal attacks on other members.

There has been a disturbing trend on the Forum lately for some members to be completely intolerant of any differing opinions to their own. I think the Dr. Schultz and Facial Exercises discussion was an appalling example of this where we had a well known doctor using his own name (not a screen name), standing by his reputation to make his point, who was completely vilified by some members. I'm bringing this up because I've received a number of PMs from both old and new members who have expressed their desire to comment on issues but are becoming too frightened to do so for fear of a backlash. My advice to them was that this is a democratic forum and we are all entitled to express our opinions and ask questions.

Anyone who has taken part in any kind of academic study knows that the main criteria is to have an enquiring mind - students are encouraged to research and ask questions. Therefore, I find the "burn the books" mentality now being expressed as completely inappropriate. When Bethany was an active member of this Forum she was well known for researching everything - her research into Dermarolling was much appreciated by everyone and is now contained in a "sticky" thread. Nobody ever referred to her as a "troll" or found her penchant for studies annoying.

Of course, nothing in science is set in concrete. We've had discussions in the past on the use of Copper Peptides and Vitamin C. Dr. Pickhart says that they should not be used together, however, Dr. Lesley Bauman (I think it's her, correct me if I'm wrong) says that they can. We should be able to discuss both differences in opinion without resulting to name calling and feelings of persecution - the same applies to this discussion.

As a keen DIYer, I have many questions about my own formulations. I worry that I should be using a penetration enhancer or a preservative etc etc. I also worry about adding ingredients into OTC products - how do we know that the ingredients we add won't have an adverse reaction of some kind and render the product useless. It is not for no reason that EDS has its own disclaimer at the head of the DIY thread.

So with all of the above in mind, I will point out this paragraph in the study that Havanah directed us to:

[0002]Many polyphenols, especially the green tea catechins, however, are very unstable at room temperature and are oxidized and break down within days, especially in the presence of water (1). In order to assure the stability of polyphenols in topical mixtures, it is possible to formulate such mixtures without water (anhydrous), and to thereby increase the stability of the polyphenols. Other antioxidants such as vitamin C will add to the stabilizing effect. Plant oils, either saturated or unsaturated, are commonly used as a base in a variety of commercial topical mixtures, but polyphenols are poorly soluble in these oils. Many polyphenols, especially the green tea extracts, and more especially green tea extracts which have been enriched for polyphenols, do not solubilize or disperse evenly in anhydrous topical mixtures composed primarily of oils or waxes.

This study is saying that Vitamin C will actually help stabilize the Green Tea. So can we now have an intelligent discussion on this without people taking sides and making unfounded accusations?

I'll get back up on deck now and continue my swimming and sunbaking - which no amount of Green Tea is going to save my skin from the consequences of. Laughing

ETA: The various creams and gels formulated in the above study posted by Havanah all contain Green Tea and an Acid. The Green Tea has been incorporated with oils - which especially interests me.

Very well said, Keliu! Thank you once again. I agree that this is a democratic forum and ALL should have a right to express their opinions and ask questions without fear of being persecuted.

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