TruthinAging article on Retin A/Tretinoin and toxicity
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free skin care · Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:23 am

Naturally I do,Rileygirl, especially when it's being recommended for young women

(and it's not only the retin a itself..but the lab created ingredients in the carrier cream or gel that's unsettling to me)... and especially since i know through personal experience ( myself and friends) that a truly holistic life style can have greater youthening regenerating effects than any of these lab created substances with their potential..and i believe inevitable... danger in al substances (virtually all created since 1945..after world war 2..never experimented on human beings in the totality of our history on earth) with the current effect being that 1 out of 2&1/2people in the USA will get some form of cancer in their lifetime (a fact..not a scare tactic)...

i mean in a sense it doesn't matter..because our spirit is what is ultimately most real and lasting....and does impact on our physical health..but ultimately it's walking out in the middle of a very powerful deadly tornado..most of us would trouble surviving..and why risk it...when there are other alternatives (for example in the case of the tornado we can simply wait it out...and really staying beautiful on a natural regime is just as simple ..we just need a little more patience to see the results of what nature can do.

free skin care · Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:25 am

I'm no doctor but here are my thoughts:

Most everything in excessive amounts (beyond normal, naturally occuring limits) is toxic, including water. So to call out tretinoin as being toxic is relative. The rate of systemic absorption of topically applied tretinoin is extremely low.

Tretinoin is teratogen, meaning it can cause abnormalities in physiological development. Studies on the effect of topically applied tretinoin (to the mother) on unborn children indicate the effect is limited. One even concludes that topical is not a potential human developmental toxicant. (See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9091512) Pregnant women are advised to avoid tretinoin during pregnancy due to potential adverse affects on the fetus, not because of adverse affects to the pregnant mother.

As far as tretinoin being used for anti-cancer treatment (which btw requires internal ingestion, not topical application), while that might be true, I don't think it's necessarily used as a 'last resort' due to toxicity reasons. I think it's used in limited cases because there are other, more effective treatments such as surgery, chemo and/or radiation. When you say it's a 'last resort', you are essentially saying that surgery, chemotherapy and/or radiation didn't work. Even if tretinoin is indeed more toxic than chemo or radiation, the toxicity of chemo and radiation are so high that beyond a certain point, differentiation becomes almost irrelevant. So to say tretinoin is used as a last resort because of toxicity doesn't sound right to me. Regardless, toxicity at the level that products all those severe side effects is associated with internal ingestion of tretinoin (which obviously has an exponentially higher systemic absorption rate), not topical application.

As a woman who is neither pregnant nor attempting to become such, I have no concerns about topically applied tretinoin.

Even if long term effects (15+) years of tretinoin are unknown, I'm confident that there are other things we do in our everyday lives that have a substantially higher adverse LT effect tretinoin, such as high fat or high salt intake. As I said before, in excessive amounts almost everything is toxic. In the end it comes down to cost (not monetary)/benefit.

free skin care · Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:44 pm

Anything in excessive manner is harmful to us. Many medications and treatments are avoided by pregnant women due to their impact on developing fetus. Retin A and Renova type products used in high strength over long period of time could have harmful affects. I use the lowest percentage of Renova every other night to keep wrinkles at bay. I do not feel that dosage being problamatic in the long run. Moderation is the key!

free skin care · Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:18 pm

Well here's something positive I recently heard from my Doctor that is interesting. He said the small amount of tretinoin that might be absorbed can help prevent macular degeneration.

I feel the same as Starlight, because it is a drug, moderation is key.

free skin care · Sat Jun 26, 2010 4:59 am

Hello... these are my thoughts!

1. Retin-A "toxicity": The concentration used in the study was higher than any concentration that is used in creams

2. The study not only tested the percentage of cells killed with Retin-A, but also tried it with detergent. Detergent killed MORE cells than Retin-A so in reality if there's cause of concern it should be the detergent Smile

3. People can have life-threatening allergic reactions to everything, including bread. So if the person (Junko) had indeed an allergic reaction (which we don't know if she followed up, and we don't know if the ophtalmologist knew what he was talking about), then I don't think then we all need to stop taking tretinoin. In fact, the mere fact that she still has dry eyes and blurry vision hints to the fact that it's not Retin-A but something else.

4. Systemic absorption of Retin-A is small and there are no reported cases (to the best of my knowledge) of hypervitaminosis or birth defects with regular Retin-A use. Out of precaution, you recommend patients to stop it.

5. Retin-A has been in use for decades and there is nothing we put on our face that has more research on both its effectiveness, side effects and toxicity, than Retin-A.

6. The study was done in 1993 before some of the mechanisms of Retin-A were elucidated. As you know, part of the effect of Retin-A is to "kill off" damaged cells... could it be that there was a great percentage of damaged cells in those cultures, especially at the time when cell culture was not as advanced as today? Yes, it could very well be... we don't know.

7. The study itself, understanding the effect of high vs. lower Retin-A doses, says that based on the results, the toxic and proliferative effects of Retin-A can be separated.

Anything that we take can have side effects... I think there's an artificial divide (construed for marketing purposes more than anything) between something called "natural" as something that's good and harmless and "artificial/drug" as something we have to be wary of. Natural things can be as harmful as drugs. There's a well-studied correlation between eating red meat and cancer yet I'm sure most people are not going to stop (or drastically diminish) their red meat consumption any time soon.

I do think, however, that these kind of articles (though I might not agree 100% with its content) are good to increase awareness so we are careful with what we put in our bodies. I have sadly seen people with their faces bright red from using Retin-A and thinking it's OK to be horribly irritated for weeks instead of going slowly and try to control the side effects.

free skin care · Sat Jun 26, 2010 8:31 am

I'm going to keep using it. It most likely has some risks but my philosophy is to stay away from toxic chemicals like in processed food, personal care and household stuff......and have as much of a stress free life (also agree with Keliu). So I can use things that I feel have benefit to me, and Retinoids benefits for my skin outweigh any possible risks.

Having said that......OMGOSH yesterday I decided to wax my chin...........I have super ultra sensitive skin and recently have ramped up my use of Tazorac.

Bad idea, I now have a TERRIBLE scape like injury on my chin. UGH!!!!

Slightly off topic:

A friend was telling me she knows a compounding pharmacist who's working with Vitamin D. Vitamin D is not a vitamin it's really a hormone just mis-categorized.

His mom's dementia was so bad that she couldn't carry on a conversation. He gave her compounded Vitamin D and her dementia has improved so that she knows who he is now and asks him about his business etc. He then compounded a Vit D cream for her face, he said her skin has haggard and grey and sick looking.

After using the Vit D cream she became vibrant looking and rosey. My friend is getting some of his compounded Vit D cream for me, I cannot wait to try it because my skin is such a huge issue for me.

I'm both distraught over my skin injury related to Retinoid, and excited over possibly getting some improvement with this new cream. I'm using some antibiotic ointment and I'm putting the Vitamin D drops I have, they are oral but I thought I'd try it?

I know that Vit D is used in creams and diaper rash ointments etc. But I think a compounded cream is probably higher dose, I'll find out and let you know if interested.

free skin care · Sat Jun 26, 2010 5:47 pm

rileygirl wrote:

Keliu, point me in the direction of the study on tea and it being carcinogenic.

I can't do that sorry - the report was on our TV news - I chose to completely ignore it! But if you do a Google search something might come up.

On the subject of Vitamin D - this is another of my annoyances. Their is a trend now to completely cover up babies in their prams so that not a single ray of sunshine or fresh air can get to them. Prams are now even being built with these fitted covers. We used to be encouraged to expose our naked babies to sunlight for a short period every day. Now, I think, that would be considered child abuse! I'm sure that the next generation of children are going to have Vitamin D deficiency. Not to mention the lack of mental development from being wheeled around in a dark "igloo" from which they can't see out.

Everyone is also becoming completely germaphobic - which is another thing that annoys me. My daughter's girlfriend continually wipes her babies hands with wet wipes everytime he touches anything - and if he puts something in his mouth, it gets taken away and the hands get wiped again. All those chemicals going on his little hands all the time! It's been shown that this is how children build up immunity to germs. We're just creating a generation of cotton-wool babies.

Sorry for the rant - but all this over-precaution on absolutely everything really gets on my nerves.

free skin care · Sun Jun 27, 2010 1:28 pm

In my (very biased) opinion, I think when we speak about "drugs" and "labs" and "standard medicine" and how evil it all is, we are forgetting that it was drugs and labs who have been mainly responsible for increasing our life expectancy, and our quality of life.

People used to die of common flu A LOT more often in the past than they do today, so I don't think we can say that new generations are worse with worse immune systems. In fact, new generations are taller, stronger, and smarter. If anything, by far the BIGGEST health problem we have in North America nowadays is obesity and all the related illnesses. And that is not consequence of pharmaceutical companies and medicine but just us not eating well, junk food being cheaper and more available than healthy food, lack of time to cook, etc, etc.

Yes, people die of cancer today... but before they died too young to actually die of cancer. If you see the statistics in Africa, the prevalence of all types of cancer is obviously a lot lower than the prevalence of cancer in North America. Is it because their standard of living and health are so much better? No, it's because they die of infectious diseases and too young to develop cancer of CV illnesses.

I am not saying that we're doing great, because we're not. There's lots to fix, lots to improve, and I think lots of people are realizing that going back to "basics" and relying more in nature (through good food, healthy lifestyle) is better than taking 1000 pills per day.

I also think that Western medicine has done a disservice to itself by not taking from the thousands of years of knowledge from eastern medicine and even native traditional medicine. I think there's a lot to learn from it and in an ideal world the two currents would exchange knowledge and take from each other.

But I don't think that our current state of affairs is awful, I don't think that pharmaceutical companies or western medicine is worthless or harmful on average.

Just my 2 (biased) cents!

free skin care · Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:10 am

jasminerosey wrote:

Josee, thanks so much for responding to my posts... (and i still have more to say re the original topic)..

and i feel your loveliness, truly, in your post (can one fall in love with another because of their beauty and sincerity in posting in a forum?)..

yet we see 'medicine' ie, health and healing as differently as day and night.

Hello jasminerosey,
I just wanted to thank you for your kind and gentle manners... I wish all disagreements in this world would be managed like this.

free skin care · Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:40 am

DarkMoon wrote:

OMG, Secretly you brought back such memories of the flack I took from Ex MIL and Mother for the bizarre way I fed my brood! ....now they are 21 to 29 and they all would rather have a healthy salad than a bag of chips? hmm

They all really have very healthy organic homemade food choices, and both boys and both girls know how to cook extremely well. They take their own food to work rather than buy junk that's out there. I wonder what I did so wrong? Bad Grin

Yay for you seriously...it's a battle to have your kids eat right, good for them too!! My son also loves to cook, work out, and his wife is so into my healthy ways. The other night she wasn't feeling well and I gave her Vitamin D drops, echinacea, and zinc....she's very open to learning and doing healthy things for her kids (my grandchildren).

I'm going to have to learn how to deal with DIL's mom though, I told my son I will be bummed if I see Brooke (the baby) eating the crap she gives her other grandkids, but like everyone is saying here she just needs to be educated!!!!!

free skin care · Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:36 am

Now that I am aware that some of my viewpoints are difficult to tolerate - instead of shutting up, I feel obliged to voice more.

I just wanted to address the continual doom and gloom mentality that seems to be rampant today - that everything in our world is killing us - when the fact is that we have never been better off.

So I would just like to point out what life was like in the 1900s (before both World Wars). Poverty was rampant, disease was rampant, a child was lucky to survive beyond the age of 5, average life expectancy was 40, it was common for women to die during childbirth, there was no birth control so women endured pregnancy after pregnancy even though many of those children would not survive, child labour was common, working conditions were abominable, education was available only to the wealthy, health care was available only to the wealthy, if you couldn't pay your debts - you were incarcerated in debtor's prison, "class" determined your position in life, women were not allowed to vote - and, in fact, they were considered inferior because it was thought they had smaller brains. Ok, so I could go on and on, but I'll stop there.

The fact is that our society, historically, has never been better off. Yes, there are still problems. But if people choose to eat crap and become sick and obese, no-one's forcing them to, that's their own decision. Today, most of us are in a position to make choices - that, in itself, is not something to be taken lightly.

I also don't quite understand why so many of you have a problem with taking modern medicine and yet consume so many supplements (which are also manufactured). And would like to point out that many of our modern medicines are derived from plant species. As I said in an earlier post - one of the greatest concerns for the governments of developed countries today is our aging populations. This isn't my opinion, it's a fact.

So, I suppose I choose to see the glass as half full. I try to be thankful for my blessings, I try and support those who are not as well off. I try to live a healthy life and to eat well. But no-one is going to tell me not to have my cup of tea and a slice of cheesecake - no forget that, make that a glass of wine!!

Sorry you've all had to "put up" with the above.

free skin care · Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:26 pm

gretchen wrote:

. Keep in mind though that there is such a thing as vitamin A toxicity and it is not something to screw around with.
http://www.annals.org/content/124/2/227.full

Gretchen, that particular case study is talking about people who have known liver disease, which the lady in the case study did (she had chronic Hepatitis C). The paper stated "Retinoic acid may produce the neurotoxic symptoms of hypervitaminosis A in patients with preexisting hepatic dysfunction". It also said the lady had been using Large amounts of topical tretinoin. According to that paper "The degree of topical tretinoin absorption through intact skin is reported to be less than 5%".

I am not sure if we can draw any conclusions from that particular case study in persons who do not have known liver problems?

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