Oxidized Ascorbic Acid
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free skin care · Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:24 am

From: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2589959/pdf/yjbm00096-0045.pdf

Title: Regulation of Collagen Biosynthesis by Ascorbic Acid: A Review

from the Yale Journal of Biology and Medicine
Excerpt: "EFFECT OF ASCORBIC ACID ANALOGS"

"Several analogs of ascorbic acid have been studied; these include dehydroascorbic acid, D-ascorbic acid, and D-isoascorbic acid [3]. As demonstrated in Fig. 4, each of these analogs was capable of stimulating relative collagen production, but none was effective at the low concentration demonstrated for L-ascorbic acid. In general, a tenfold increase in concentration was required for these compounds."

I did a google search for 'collagen, skin, dehydroascorbic acid' and read a lot of scientific literature. Personally, I wouldn't spend my money on a dehydroascorbic acid product. As always, everyone makes their own choices.

I know the dollars, the expertise, knowledge, research, etc that the larger skin care product manufacturing companies have available to them. If dehydroascorbic acid was better they would be using it. And stability would not be an issue. I have personally spent many years stabilizing liquid, powder, and lyophilized (freeze dried) components and formulations. Stabilization is not a new process. There is a known science and approach to it.

As the French say "chacun à son goût".

free skin care · Sat Dec 25, 2010 5:32 am

Hi Jonny,

A good find!

free skin care · Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:24 am

DarkMoon-just think of it as a 3 in one product. You can self tan, perm your hair, and get your vitamin C all from one sourse!

free skin care · Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:09 am

ReCverin wrote:

ReCverin 50/50 contains Glycerin, Vitamin C (as dehydroascorbic acid and ascorbic acid) and water. The concentration of dehydroascorbic acid is 2.5% and the concentration of ascorbic acid is 2.5%, giving a total Vitamin C concentration of 5%.

I don't mean to butt into this thread, but I have a few questions for ReCverin.

You state that your product has a total of 5% Vitamin C. Doesn't that seem kind of low? Studies have shown that collagen stimulation doesn't happen unless the product is 10% vitamin c or higher. Plus, on your website the directions state that you should mix equal parts of ReCverin with water before applying. So that would further dilute your product to only 2.5% concentration of total vitamin c. Can you please explain the reasoning for this?

Also I find it disturbing that your product contains no preservative whatsoever. I am all about organic, natural skincare, and I try to avoid harmful chemicals, but it seems like there should be some sort of preservative in there - even if it's a food grade preservative. I personally would never buy a product that doesn't have some type of preservative.

Also, I've never seen a vitamin c serum packaged in a squeeze bottle like shampoo. Most vitamin c serums are either in a dark glass dropper bottle or one of those airless pumps to reduce the chance of oxidation. Can you please explain why your serum doesn't need special packaging?

Please don't think that I'm trying to be confrontational here. But you started this thread obviously looking to stimulate a discussion about yur product. I just have some questions since the formulation & packaging of your product is so different from the standard in the cosmetic industry with other lines. Thanks in advance & Happy New Year! Very Happy

free skin care · Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:56 am

DarkMoon wrote:

You aren't butting in doodlebug, everything you said I completely agree with, this product makes no sense to me at all? I may be totally wrong on this but if 50% is oxidized what protects the LAA from also oxidizing?
Happy New Year! Very Happy

You're right DarkMoon! I never even thought of that. But it would make sense that it would degrade the LAA even further. It just seems strange that every other vitamin c serum out there & all the DIY recipes go to extreme lengths to avoid all of these things from happening, and this product seems to do them all on purpose. I'm just as confused as you! Think

You have a Happy & Healthy New Year too!

free skin care · Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:26 pm

Some interesting reading, including how to make your own version of ReCverin 50/50:

http://www.medhelp.org/tags/health_page/6652/STDs/How-to-Use-Vitamin-C-Correctly?hp_id=1196

free skin care · Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:18 am

doodlebug wrote:

…on your website the directions state that you should mix equal parts of ReCverin with water before applying. So that would further dilute your product to only 2.5% concentration of total vitamin c. Can you please explain the reasoning for this?

Our product is formulated with very pure, USP grade glycerin and contains very little water. This stabilizes the vitamin C components. Glycerin is an excellent humectant, and makes a pleasant moisturizing solution when mixed with water. Most people prefer the more rapid rate at which it absorbs, and the soft, smooth texture and non-greasy feel that it gives to the skin, when it is applied mixed with about 50% water. So that is why we recommend mixing ReCverin 50/50 with equal parts water, but it can be used undiluted, or mixed to whatever consistency the user desires. It is formulated to provide effective concentrations of both forms of vitamin C, and yet to be gentle enough for most skin types. Refer to my earlier post in this thread for more details about the amount of ascorbic acid needed to stimulate collagen synthesis. Refer to our website for more details about the most efficiently absorbed form of vitamin C called dehydroascorbic acid.

free skin care · Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:19 am

Keliu wrote:

Some interesting reading, including how to make your own version of ReCverin 50/50:

http://www.medhelp.org/tags/health_page/6652/STDs/How-to-Use-Vitamin-C-Correctly?hp_id=1196

Brilliant!! I have a lab Physist conection i never would have thought of.

With all due respect to ReCverin you are to be commended for coming here and squaring off with these very savey women. Other product developers who do not have the science,knowledge or facts,hide behind vague terms such as" DARK ENERGY, or ENERGIZED WATER" but will not expose themselves to serious questions. Yes, before I attempt to duplicate your product I will buy it. At least you believe in it enough to take the time to come here and defend and explain to some very tough women who understand the science behind Skin Care.

free skin care · Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:44 am

Kassy_A wrote:

Derivatives of vitamin C, including magnesium ascorbyl phosphate, ascorbyl-6-palmitate and dehydroascorbic acid, did not increase skin levels of L-ascorbic acid.

Dear Kassy,

A Yorkshire pig is pink, essentially hairless, and susceptible to sunburn, like a human. It therefore has been used as an animal model in sunburn and other skin studies. Unlike a human or a guinea pig, however, a Yorkshire pig is able to synthesize its own vitamin C.

In 2001, a study that is now very famous was published, which characterized vitamin C formulations for best absorption. That study was conducted on Yorkshire pigs. The statement quoted above, that you found on a commercial website, originally comes from that famous study.

The ability to absorb and utilize dehydroascorbic acid is found only in those species, such as humans, that cannot synthesize vitamin C. This ability is believed to be an adaptation to the genetic mutation that made us unable to make vitamin C in the first place. It allows us to recycle vitamin C, to use each molecule many times, and to stay alive even though we generally get a relatively small amount of vitamin C in our diet. These facts were apparently unknown to the authors of that famous study. So they undertook to test the absorption of dehydroascorbic acid in their animals. It is no surprise that they found no increase in the amount of ascorbic acid in the skin of Yorkshire pigs by applying dehydroascorbic acid, because those pigs are unable to absorb it into their cells.

The lead author of that famous study was Dr. Sheldon Pinnell, who passed away very recently. He is generally recognized as the pioneer in the use of vitamin C in skin care. A son of his is a founder of SkinCeuticals, the company that introduced the original CEF serum.

Although you consider dehydroascorbic acid to be impertinent in skin care, Dr. Pinnell certainly didn’t...otherwise he wouldn’t have tested it. And if he had chosen an appropriate animal model, perhaps his son’s company would have pursued a dehydroascorbic acid serum.

Unless I’m mistaken, you are the same Kassy who has gained some notoriety of her own by creating DIY recipes to mimic the original CEF serum of SkinCeuticals. If you are that same Kassy, then I’m surprised that you seem oblivious to the facts I’ve presented here, and to the current state of the science of vitamin C in general. If you want to be well-informed and knowledgeable, I’d suggest you start by getting your information by reading original, peer-reviewed scientific studies rather than commercial websites.

free skin care · Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:46 pm

ReCverin, I'm going to try at least one of your products. I've been on the fence about vitamin C serums but this looks like it could fill the bill for me.

However, I have a question.

I notice on your site you have two products: the 5% 50/50 DHAA/l-ascorbic in glycerin, and 10% l-ascorbic acid in glycerin.

What makes your l-ascorbic so stable? What is the pH? My understanding is that l-ascorbic needs a high pH in order to be effective. I think people here have tried straigh l-ascorbic in glycerin with no success. What makes yours different?

free skin care · Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:19 pm

Yubs wrote:

What makes your l-ascorbic so stable? What is the pH? My understanding is that l-ascorbic needs a high pH in order to be effective. I think people here have tried straigh l-ascorbic in glycerin with no success. What makes yours different?

OK, answers to your questions including info that most manufacturers don't want you to understand.

1. Our l-ascorbic acid is stable because it is anhydrous (no water). We provide it, YOU add the water...which absorbs from the air and skin into hygroscopic glycerin, or by applying to moist skin, or by mixing with a few drops of water when you apply it. And no, pure glycerin applied directly to skin doesn't dry your skin by drawing water out of it...it instead moisturizes by drawing water from the deep tissues into the dry outer layers. There is no lack of water in the deep tissues, and any that is drawn to the surface is instantly replaced in the deep tissues by the bloodstream.

2. pH of our LAA is 2.7 when mixed with equal parts water. pH is not defined or measurable in solutions that don't have water.

3. It is true that LAA absorbs through stratum corneum much better from solutions at pH less than about 3.5. After applying a small amount of a solution at exactly pH 3.5 and rubbing into your skin, the pH of your skin begins to slowly climb as more and more salts, etc. from the skin combine, and eventually the pH returns to the normal pH of skin which is around 5. Thus, a solution somewhat more acidic than pH 3.5 assures that the pH is optimal for a longer time.

4. (The part they don't want you to know). The reason many people don't get results from LAA are two-fold: it doesn't absorb through stratum corneum nearly as well as most people think; and, they use it incorrectly. Relatively high concentrations at proper pH are necessary; exfoliation helps immensely; but ENOUGH TIME is absolutely crucial. Why do we apply it in the day rather than at night? Something magic about daytime absorption? Heck no, it's very simple: if it all rubs off on your pillowcase, then it isn't on your skin for the many hours needed to absorb an effective amount. What about that study that showed how skin gets saturated in only 3 days? Well, do you know what a Hill Top Chamber is? It's a little device that holds a pool of fluid against the skin, in this case about 10 drops over a surface smaller than a dime. It assures that the pool is available 24 hours a day. So, it appears that if you were to soak in bathtub full of serum for 72 consecutive hours, then your skin will be saturated with vitamin C. Somewhat different than spreading a few drops on and washing it off at night, huh? (Forgive the plug for actually reading the studies, rather than assuming what the websites tell you is true).

So, does LAA even work? You bet, but you have to get enough into your skin. Your skin doesn't have to be completely saturated, but it clearly requires more than applying a little once a week, and in particular to applying for 30 minutes or so and then washing it off. I have read this method of using it many times!

Why is DHAA better than AA? The main reason is that it absorbs through stratum corneum 12 times faster, but there are other reasons too. Nevertheless, you still need to use it regularly, and leave it on for long periods.

So sorry for this voluminous post!

free skin care · Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:30 pm

ReCverin wrote:

So sorry for this voluminous post!

Thank you for taking the time to post it! Great info in this thread.

free skin care · Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:16 pm

For those who want to try oxidized vitamin C serum... Just drop a couple of drops of iodine into your L-AA product.. wala, instant oxidation! Laughing

Uggg! Seriously! Oy vey!

@ReCverin, apology accepted. Very Happy

free skin care · Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:26 pm

Kassy_A wrote:

sister sweets wrote:

Kassy_A wrote:

For those who want to try oxidized vitamin C serum... Just drop a couple of drops of iodine into your L-AA product.. wala, instant oxidation! Laughing

Uggg! Seriously! Oy vey!

@ReCverin, apology accepted. Very Happy

I'd like to know what ReCverin thinks. Really just drop in iodine and that's it!!! Shock

So Kassy you are saying by adding iodine this would replicate ReCverins product (seems rather simplistic)..?
OR are you saying it would oxidize an existing LAA product but not necessarily give the results of anything worthwhile?
Big Difference.

I was being facetious Sis, but the fact is that ANY metal (copper for ex) that is added to ascorbic acid, will degrade/oxidize it. Even bicarbonate of soda in a pinch. My point was simply this; why would anyone purposely expose their skin to oxidized/degraded ascorbic acid? Perhaps it has it's place as a supplement, with it's more neutral pH, but as an application to the skin, I'd give it a pass for sure.

I like my antioxidants to squelch free radicals, not generate more.

Anyhoo, I don't make the vitamin C rules, I just abide by the proven modalities.

I think the issue here is one of semantics (and proper chemical terminology) ...
I'll let ReCverin speak for himself, but he did say that he's making a distinction between oxidation and degradation. When we loosely use the word "oxidation", we're generally talking about degradation. He's using it in the more chemically correct way ... and the oxidation of LAA to DHAA is *not a bad thing*.
That's the point. DHAA is naturally occurring in our skin (and elsewhere in the body, but predominantly in the skin) and is more readily absorbed through the stratum corneum where it is than converted back into LAA.

He is not suggesting using degraded LAA.

I just find this to be kind of odd, that people are being perhaps purposely obtuse ??

Anyway, I'll let him speak for himself since I'm just learning about all of this, reading the links he's provided. But it doesn't go against anything else that we know about LAA.

free skin care · Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:11 pm

ReCverin wrote:

Kassy_A wrote:

I was being facetious Sis

Kassy, I assumed you were being facetious. But I must warn anyone reading this thread that the amount of iodine necessary to completely oxidize a single gram of ascorbic acid is a LETHAL DOSE if ingested, and it is easily absorbed through the skin. DO NOT MESS AROUND WITH IODINE. This is not the way our product is made, and not the way you should attempt to copy it.
Kassy, please be more careful about what you say.

Thanks D....I'm very interested in this chemistry. I have done the DIY gamut of fresh vit C (LAA, etc -copying the Pinnel mode (used Kassy's version and others - still do my own) However - I dose internally with iodine for health reasons. Shock

- Use Lugol's in water.. Still living and breathing so far as I can tell.

The main point for us on EDS: It's a departure to wrap around the concept of oxidized Vit C... We have regarded it for so long as a negative and almost as a contaminent of skin Vs having an understanding of it as a positive value for the skin.
Thank you for providing us with an understanding of something outside our box.

free skin care · Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:35 am

I did this little experiment a few weeks ago...this is a c/p from another forum:

Quote:

I decided to test my tolerance for various concentrations of glycerin. I generally don't like the feeling of humectants ... like I'm sweating underneath that layer of goo. Gross.

The ReCverin stuff is supposedly straight glycerin, no water, for stability reasons. Then you're supposed to either apply to a damp face, or mix with water and apply. Or simply allow the humidity in the air slowly help release the LAA. Basically just like the anhydrous C recipe we have here on another thread - the one with oils.

I made 3 different versions of this, all with LAA in them, although that wasn't really the point. Just trying to see how much glycerin I could cope with ...

1) 10% LAA in glycerin, diluted with water to 5%

Gly .9g

LAA .1g

H20 1g

2) 20% LAA in glycerin, diluted with water to 5%

Gly .4g

LAA .1g

H20 1.5g

3) 40% LAA in glycerin, diluted with water to 10%

Gly .3g

LAA .2g

H20 1.5g

For all 3, I "spatulated" the glycerin and LAA first and then added the H20 just before slapping on my face. I actually did #1 and #2 simultaneously as a split face thing. They both result in 5% LAA, which is same as ReCverin if you follow instructions to use 50/50 with H20.
#3 is 10% LAA, after adding water.

#3 by far the most tolerable, for me. I have to say that, even though #1 felt gross and oily and sticky, it looked fine. In fact, wearing this overnight made my skin look tastic. Really plumped up and almost poreless in the morning. Nice!

Ultimately, I'd like to not have to measure this every day, so I also need to take into consideration how to store the glycerin/LAA mixture. Version #3 is really almost a paste, so would have to go into a jar, I guess. But it's stable so that would be OK. I guess could use with a little scoop... then 3 scoops water, mix in my palm and slap and go ...

free skin care · Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:24 pm

I'm really glad you've said this, as I've been wondering about whether its the concentration or the overall amount of vit C.
I suppose the concentration would only come into play if it's necessary to have a certain pH...but given ascorbic acid is a weak acid the pH doesn't actually change all that much with a more dilute product.
Of course I suppose that's a moot point given that your product is anhydrous..... Hmmmmm....

Pondering ... Smile

free skin care · Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:42 pm

fawnie wrote:

Ive been mixing 2 gtts of the ReCvrin 50/50 serum in the palm of my hand with another AA2G/ethyl ascorbic acid serum that is oil free and a bit "too" dry feeling. So the resulting "Quadruple C" serum is just-about-right-feeling. Too soon to tell if this is the Perfect Mix but it def feels better this way. As DragoN sez, "Always a workaround!"

I like this idea fawnie - I might give it a go tonight since I have some AA powder lying around.

ReCverin wrote:

Yubs wrote:

So I guess that's a good question for RCevrin...how can the consumer dilute the product and still get a reliable Vitamin C concentration with every application?

If you apply 3 drops directly from the bottle without any water or lotion to "dilute" it, then you've applied a certain total amount of vitamin C to a certain area of skin. If you mix 3 drops with 10 drops of water, and apply it to the same area of skin, then you have applied the same total amount of vitamin C. What happens to the water? It either absorbs into your skin, or evaporates. Within a very short time, the amount of vitamin C per unit area of skin is the same. If the water helps the glycerin absorb and leave a texture that you prefer, then that's a good thing.
//
In regard to the bit about concepts that are contrary to people's thinking: I expect that I'm going to hear from folks who are going to say how "everyone knows that a serum must be at least 5% (or 10%, or some other number) to be effective." There is nothing magic about a certain cutoff concentration in regard to absorption. A serum must simply contain enough vitamin C so that when you apply a reasonable amount, you get enough vitamin C per unit area of skin. If you apply 1 drop of a 15% serum, or 15 drops of a 1% serum to the same skin area, you have applied the same amount of vitamin C. I will be happy to discuss this concept further with reference to the famous study previously discussed in this thread, but this particular post is already way too long!

I have a problem with the theory you present about the dilution ratio as I find that when my face is damp with water, that I can spread the serum farther (ie-down my neck). In doing so, I AM diluting the serum by making it go farther than intended.

free skin care · Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:03 pm

Reporting in to say that I've been using the ReCverin serum for the 2nd round of my dermarolling, which I just did today. I also used it prepping for a roll I did 6 weeks ago. Both times, I've applied it immediately after the rolls. This is my observation:

I find the serum to be too sticky and shiney to be able to use it during the day or to apply makeup over it. I will use it before I exercise and then, a few hours later, wash it off. I have found this to work best for me. Night time applications haven't worked out for me since I use Retin A in the evenings.
I have applied it for 3 weeks before each roll and immediately after the roll, plus the following 2 days. It might be moisturizing enough to help with the dryness that follows a deep roll (1.5mm) because my skin handled the dryness fairly well. I also did notice 'some' stinging upon application after the roll, but that lasted only a few seconds.

I cannot say I like this serum on my rather oily skin and I believe it is the glycerin in it that I despise.
I also feel that the 2oz container is too large and a smaller one should be offered. With my bottle approaching the expiration date of 8 weeks, I have more than 3/4 of it left. And this is with using it daily for 6 - 7 weeks. (Refrigerated in-between).
I'm also disappointed in the packaging. The label also needs to be made to stay on better than it does as mine started to peel off completely when I opened the bottle. I did manage to salvage the label somewhat, though. A shrink-wrap label doesn't seem to be the best you could offer.

Some might like this better than me. With my oily skin, it just doesn't sink in at all and I end up with quite a shine. I do think it works as well as a water based vitamin C serum works. It's hard for me to notice any changes in my skin, but that might be because I have pretty good skin to begin with. (My esthetician has noted the lack of wrinkles on my skin).
I did , however,see some significant peeling of a wrinkle I targeted with a 2.0 single needle (and, subsequent filling it of it) on that last roll. I'd like to believe it was my prepping of my skin before needling 6 weeks ago that did that. Using good quality products like Retin A, BHAs, CPs and a vit C product like ReCverin would help. Another good note is that I've noticed the serum helping with a few dry spots I have, so it is a fairly good 'moisturizing' serum.

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