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Thu May 24, 2012 6:12 am  |
Medical Edition, author: Lance Setterfield, MD.
Purchased on Amazon.com for about $65
Dr. Setterfield has a dermatology practice in Canada. He uses needling in his practice and has found that his patients have achieved results surpassing those provided by several types of lasers.
This book is the most helpful source I have ever found on the subject of dermal rolling/needling and the very best part is having all the information in one place. No more hours spent sifting through other,less detailed, sources.
Additionally, the book was issued in 2010 and updates much of the previous data we had uncovered about needling.
Dr. Setterfield studied under Dr. Fernandes and incorporates the methods first developed by Dr. Fernandes, but provides additional updates.
His book is divided into the following sections:
Skin Rejuvenation
Cell Function
Wound Healing
Dermal Needling
Treatment Parameters and Protocols
Case Studies
Overview of Modalities
Advantages and Disadvantages
Dr. Setterfield has answered nearly every (if not every) question I've ever had about needling and this is invaluable to me.
I will keep this nearby for further reference.
He delves into a deep discussion as how and why dermal needlig is superior to other dermatological procedures and treatments.
I am not aware of anyone who has refuted any of the information provided in the book, but would always be curious to hear about that.
I highly recommend this book.
BFG |
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Thu May 24, 2012 8:55 am |
oh! sorry, thanks!  |
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Sat May 26, 2012 6:40 pm |
| 10Sylvia5 wrote: |
Bethany,
would love to hear your thoughts on the book.
You are one of my "Derma Heros" if I hadnt seen your posts and references and sucesses on the long dremarolling thread, I really dont think I would have had the confidence to go ahead and do this
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If you read my posts from years ago, you must have really done your research. Good for you!!!!
I'll let you know what I see that is different from the professional protocol that I have read from Dr. F.
I am personally not a fan of making up crazy routines/overdoing it and rolling weird stuff into your skin...I prefer to stick to the rolling/product protocols designed by the medical experts who have a LOT of experience, and I think that is why I had such great results last time.
The fact that this doctor trained under Dr. F and has many years of experience is the only reason I was willing to spend the $65 for the book. (many thanks to BFG for pointing it out) |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sat May 26, 2012 7:48 pm |
- I learned more about the science behind it and in more depth than the articles
- I learned new information on needle lengths
- I learned more about the wound healing process
- I gained specific info about cleaning the rollers and the overall protocol.
- I learned more information about active ingredients.
Do I think anyone needs this book to get anything they can't get from a myriad of other sources? probably not - but if you want it all in one place, this is the book.
He writes from his studies, his clinical practice and his research. It is not a *great* book, it is a good book that pulls it all together, rather than what we have now - which is a bunch of disjointed articles.
BFG |
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Sat May 26, 2012 8:12 pm |
I forgot to mention two important things.
I learned that short needled rollers aren't just for product penetration, they also assist in the rejuvenation process - see details in the other thread on the DIY page if interested.
I also learned about the importance of keratinocytes over fibroblasts - he mentions this time and again throughout the book.
BFG |
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Sun May 27, 2012 3:05 pm |
| EthelM wrote: |
| BFG, would you please comment further on the needle length information in the book? I do know Dr. Fernandes mentioned that using a 1.00 needle a number of times will have the same cumulative results as the 3.00 (medical/surgical) needle. Does this book suggest even smaller size needles for real skin remodeling? Thanks! |
I know I posted it someplace but can not seem to find it now.
0.2 and 0.3 are considered cosmetic and safe for the patient to use at home.
0.5 to 3.0 are considered medical and should be preformed by appropriately trained cosmetic nurses, technicians and doctors.
That is according to the book, Dr. Setterfield. |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon May 28, 2012 8:19 am |
I re-read the entire book last night.
Toward the end, he makes one reference to home use of .5 mm rollers. I could make a wild assumption that maybe this refers to some clients who had already been treated in his office. This is with respect to rolling too often and triggering constant collagenese. His recommended treatment schedule differs from Dr. F.
The only specific info he gives regarding topical growth factors relates to colostrum. I see that Environ sells a product with this. He emphasizes that his list of actives is not intended to be comprehensive. He does refer to the broad category of peptides and specifies which have been proven effective. But again, no reference to a conflict between Vitamin C and copper.
I am beginning to draft some questions for him, letting him also know that his readership is increasing, lol.
If anyone has any questions to add, feel free to let me know.
BFG |
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Mon May 28, 2012 2:30 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
| Toward the end, he makes one reference to home use of .5 mm rollers. I could make a wild assumption that maybe this refers to some clients who had already been treated in his office. This is with respect to rolling too often and triggering constant collagenese. His recommended treatment schedule differs from Dr. F. |
I don't read the dermarolling thread anymore, but there used to be people rolling multiple times a day with .75mm and longer on an ongoing basis.
I'll be very interested to see what he says about this. |
That doesn't sound good to me... |
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42! Currently using: NCN All-in-One, Mito-Q cream, Eviron AVST, Osea, Grateful Body. Wouldnt be without: Rhassoul clay, avocado oil, Glorybe Herbals hydrosols and perfume oils |
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Mon May 28, 2012 3:42 pm |
Key excerpts:
| Quote: |
Understanding the predictable phases of wound healing dictates optimum timing for treatment and modalities to obtain greatest success. Prolonging the inflammatory phase (day 1-5) will result in more growth factors. Photomodulation and lymph drainage are valuable from day 2-14 and then cosmetic rolling combined with Sonophoresis and micro-current are beneficial to assist maximum delivery of nutrients to cells. Collagenase peaks at around day 14 to reorganize collagen fibrils, converting collagen 3 to collagen 1 and it therefore makes no sense to reinjure the skin more frequently than every 30 days.
Collagen synthesis requires Vitamin A (e.g. Retinyl Palmitate, Retinyl Acetate, Retinol or Tretinoin), Vitamin C (e.g. Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate, L-Ascorbic Acid), key amino acids (proline & glycine), bioflavonoids, growth factors, selenium, silicon allied with magnesium and calcium, copper peptides, zinc and iron (co-factors), hormones and essential fatty acids (for cell function and membranes). Stem cell products and platelet rich therapy hold enormous promise.
...
The 0.5mm produced best results in the shortest time (wrinkles 26% & UV 16%).
http://www.beautymagonline.com/index.php?start=42 |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon May 28, 2012 3:45 pm |
| Quote: |
Enlarging the pathways through the skin with cosmetic needling to allow up to 80 percent more nutrients to penetrate has proven to be safe and effective. It is possible to obtain significant improvement of hyperpigmentation, fine lines and wrinkles, scarring, hair restoration and even UV spots over time. Some want results faster, which leads to the next step up in treatment.
http://www.acaciadermacare.com/upload/docs/Cosmetic%20vs%20Medical%20Needling%20Abstract.pdf |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon May 28, 2012 4:18 pm |
One more since needle length keeps coming up....
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Further studies by Dr Fernandes and Dr Aust in Germany concluded that similar results could be obtained using a 1 mm roller. In 2008, Dr Greco authored an abstract and stated that biopsies revealed new collagen to a depth of 0.6 mm. Even though 2.0 mm needles were used, no new collagen fibers could be found in the sub dermal layer illustrating no benefit to using longer more invasive needles
http://www.acaciadermacare.com/upload/docs/Cosmetic%20vs%20Medical%20Needling%20Abstract.pdf |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon May 28, 2012 6:42 pm |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
Well I'm sure he would draw on various studies. But I guess what we're all looking for answers to is this:
1. How best to prepare/cleanse roller.
2. What needle length to use.
3. How frequently to roll.
4. What to apply directly after rolling. |
I agree and see Cookie's point also, I will have to check more in my book for definitive answers as to his recommendations .
Cookie I see what you are saying but are those various recs. from different sources/studies?
I have to be honest the chart is a bit confusing to me! |
The wording in the article is hard to follow. So I'm just going with the heading in the chart itself. I don't really know if this is right or not maybe someone else will know. |
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Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Mon May 28, 2012 7:15 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| Quote: |
Rolling frequency minimum of once a week (ideal once a day). Age range 29-68 yrs. (Avg. 49 yrs.) Vitamin A dose range 1500 IU to 50 000 IU. (Avg. 17 000 IU) |
This is confusing. First it says there is no sense in rolling more frequently than once every 30 days. And then it states "Rolling frequency minimum of once a week (ideal once a day".
What does everyone make of that? |
Yes, I am totally confused by that, too! For what it is worth, I do know that Dr. Fernandes likes the use of the cosmetic roll-CIT daily when your skin can handle it. |
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Mon May 28, 2012 7:49 pm |
| CookieD wrote: |
Rileygirl, I still think no dr. is going to tell you to roll everyday with 1 or 2mm. |
Definitely agree with you on that! |
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Mon May 28, 2012 7:51 pm |
| Lacy53 wrote: |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
| Quote: |
Rolling frequency minimum of once a week (ideal once a day). Age range 29-68 yrs. (Avg. 49 yrs.) Vitamin A dose range 1500 IU to 50 000 IU. (Avg. 17 000 IU) |
This is confusing. First it says there is no sense in rolling more frequently than once every 30 days. And then it states "Rolling frequency minimum of once a week (ideal once a day)".
What does everyone make of that? |
Yes, I am totally confused by that, too! For what it is worth, I do know that Dr. Fernandes likes the use of the cosmetic roll-CIT daily when your skin can handle it. |
"Methods: Measurements for brown spots, pores, wrinkles, evenness and UV spots were used to determine effectiveness of products alone vs. the use of rollers with 0.2 mm, 0.3 mm, 0.5 mm, 1 mm and 2 mm long needles combined with products".
That first line in the chart refers to daily topical application of appropriate products without any dermarolling. |
Your right on that but what does rolling frequency minimum of once a week (ideal once a day) mean. That's what we are trying to find out. |
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Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Tue May 29, 2012 5:37 am |
My take is there are differing opinions & some conflicting data coming out of various studies over the years, so finding the optimal rolling schedule, optimal needle length, optimal topicals is the key thing, at the risk of sounding obvious.
I don't see any issues with using cosmetic length rollers on a daily basis, it's the longer needled rollers that concern me, since regardless, don't we already know enough about the scarless wound healing cyle to determine optimal intervals?.. and is that cycle age dependent?
That's another thing on my mind lately, lol.
BFG |
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Tue May 29, 2012 9:21 am |
He is affiliated with selling the rollers and serums, as it seems all derms push one thing or another.
On this site, he is clear about using the .2 or .3 daily, then the .5 once/week. (see pull down menu)
http://ens-dermalintegrity.bridgelabs.ca/templates/textPage.php?pageid=70
I don't know, I think he is fence straddling on the .5 in order to promote that to home users, while indicating in his book, that it falls under the category of medical needling, not cosmetic needling.
Personally, I think I will stick with .2 or .3, then montly or longer with 1.0 or greater, but that's just me.
I find it interesting that his company dermaindividuals is selling serums that are similar to DIY, and combining copper peptides with HA.
BFG |
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Tue May 29, 2012 9:34 am |
Here's another informative piece:
http://www.humannurture.com.au/documents/DermalRollingWeb.pdf
This clarifies the .5 to be used once a month, not more frequently to avoid collagenese.
So we have Dr. F promoting 1.0 from his own clinical work and Dr. S promoting .5 from his own.
BFG |
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Tue May 29, 2012 11:44 am |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
I just read my last two posts and realized there might be confusion.
His list of "skin nutrients" is not wholly comprehensive, but it's a bunch more comprehensive than what we've seen elsewhere in other places.
BFG |
I agree BFG, it was not a criticism just that if he stuck strictly to Dr. Fernandez's protocol what would be the point of putting all his time in to research and writing a book based on that. |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Tue May 29, 2012 12:05 pm |
that;s what I am thinking too... Maybe someone who has this can share... pretty please  |
_________________
42! Currently using: NCN All-in-One, Mito-Q cream, Eviron AVST, Osea, Grateful Body. Wouldnt be without: Rhassoul clay, avocado oil, Glorybe Herbals hydrosols and perfume oils |
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Tue May 29, 2012 4:23 pm |
| erg wrote: |
thanks Bethany! Does anyone have the full ingredient list for this? I could not find online |
I have not found any ingredient lists online for Environ.
Ignore any typos!
Capylic/Capric Triglyceride, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil, Tocopheryl Acetate, Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmitate, Ethylhexyl Methoxcinnamate, Retinyl Acetate, Butyl Methoxydibenzoylmethane, Helianthus Annuus (Sunflower) Seed Oil, BHT |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Tue May 29, 2012 6:25 pm |
So I read the book this evening....definitely a nice summary for someone who is new to rolling and doesn't want to read a bunch of different articles. But if you read all the articles in the past and are well versed on the wound healing cascade, it may not be worth the money.
For me, it basically confirmed what I believed years ago after reading all those separate articles/studies:
- Less is more...rolling too frequently with longer needles can be damaging (collagenase)
- Rolling frequently with even a .5mm looks like it is producing early wrinkle reduction, but it is really just inflammation/edema
- Long needles really aren't necessary (he says .5mm provides both epidermal and dermal injury)
A new take away for me was that CP's should not be used right after rolling, and are better utilized 5 or more days after a medical roll (.5mm or 1mm) though I personally do not use CP's anymore. And it did encourage me to try the daily rolling for penetration again.
Truthfully, I wish this book was required reading for all new rollers. Maybe this will help get the word out in a more authoritative manner that people can actually damage their skin by overdoing the dermarolling. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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