Ethics & Sales
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free skin care · Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:24 pm

Deliberately lying about something for financial gain is definitely wrong, and there should be consequences. For a small example, if someone says their soap or shampoos doe not have SLS in it, but it does, and they know it even though they say it doesn't, they should be fined. Or something. (This actually happened to me once, LOL, but nobody could prove the vendor knew it beforehand. It was blamed on a change in formula by the manufacturer who did not tell the vendor).

But sometimes "truth" can be relative. What works for one person may not work for another, but the people that have a bad experience want a product pulled, without allowing that some people want the product because it works for them. I remember the Vioxx case when it was pulled. It's pretty plain that Merck did some nasty shenanigans there to keep the bad sides under wraps, and that the FDA was involved to keep it quiet for them, but I also remembered numerous passionate testimonials from pain sufferers who swore Vioxx was the only thin that had ever worked for them. They were terribly upset that they were no longer going to have access to it. I felt bad for those people. Their "truth" was different than mine. Their truth gave me a different perspective about the frequently relative nature of good and bad, even if it didn't change my mind about Merck.

Proof that something is true can also be relative. Sometimes truth cannot accurately be proven with the tools at hand. Sometimes truth is too far ahead of current concepts to be understood or believed, even though proof is available (think Galileo and his calculations). Proof can be skewed, and proof can simply be different from one person to the next. For instance, how many of us know (or are) people who believe the existence of the world is proof in itself that God exists? I don't necessarily believe that, but since I can't prove otherwise I don't waste my time trying to convince anyone who does that they may not be right. Plus, I believe they have a right to their opinions without me foisting my demands for proof upon them.

I also don't get ginned up if these people contribute money to a church or evangelist or whatever. It's their money to spend how they see fit. I can't prove the evangelist doesn't really believe in God (that is, I can't prove he's perpetrating fraud), so it's not fraud just because it doesn't jibe with my belief system.

Supplements are a good case in point about relative truth. Many doctors consider them to be essentially worthless or even dangerous, and think that they should be pulled from the market. Or at least, the ones that show some efficacy should be mediated (prescribed) through them. But most of us know that supplements are benign the vast majority of the time, and frequently work well. They can be indispensable to consumers. Thank goodness doctors do not have absolute authority to exercise their judgment over us!

Lying is wrong. But when judging we should try to keep in mind that not everyone who gives an unsatisfactory answer is a liar, just like everyone who purports to offer objective truth is honest. Also, some smart people believe in things that are untrue. It doesn't make them liars, it just makes them misguided. Lord knows I've fallen into that category often enough. Rolling Eyes

Plus consider that someone who is convinced of their absolute rightness on a moral crusade (Let's get all the lying liars who are lying to us!) can be just as dangerous as the outright liars they are trying to "get". Self-righteous people will typically bulldoze anyone who gets in their way, including innocent defenders of their targets.

There's a limit to all this temperance, of course...gotta draw the line somewhere or justice would never be served...but for everyday situations I find this kind of thinking suits better and leads to more happiness and contentment than more black & white thinking. Unless it's obvious fraud, the velvet glove suits better than the hammer.

Goodness, but I'm a gasbag sometimes. Sorry, every one. I wish it would quit raining so I could stop myself and go walk my dogs. Laughing

free skin care · Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:06 pm

Good read!

I'm someone who prides myself on being honest. I hate how selfish and passive aggressive lying is. It's one of those personality traits that I just can't stand when I see it.

I've also accepted that there are many, MANY people in the world who disagree with that. There are tons of people who'll do anything and everything just to get what they want. In the case of businesses, what they want is always bigger profits. Sometimes they get caught and sometimes not. There isn't much you can do if you're dealing with an entity who just hasn't been caught "yet." We just have to keep an eye out for dishonesty as best we can.

I'll say that it particularly bothers me when there is dishonesty in the medical and pharmaceutical fields. But that's another story entirely.

free skin care · Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:59 pm

Yubs - I love your brain. Logical, deep, fearless...
I was raised in a smaller town..my parents both from small towns and Mass every Sunday. What I learned was mostly to do the right thing. Be honest with who you are... and the golden rule unless someone has proven they cannot be trusted - then you seek to tolerate as needed and avoid. I have a tendency to trust people.. on the other hand being in my 50's I certainly recognize when big business or Pharmaceutical industry/lobbies and FDA are involved, politics relating to financial gain is almost a guarantee.

I do not think all companies are lying and unethical - but they are in business to make money and I'm okay with that. Some misrepresent things - such as amount of actives or overpricing a product. (LaMer anyone). At this point it comes down to degrees. I've found that being educated, following and trusting my best judgement I tend to be surrounded by great (and truly helpful) people. I like to believe you attract what you know and who you are... Conversely you may attract haters who want to jump on you or bring you down(odd dynamic) but you are less affected by them and they cannot stay in your positive energy field.
I have lived in big cities (Manhattan comes to mind) and there is a different dynamic of what is admired and revered. That's a whole'nother topic.

free skin care · Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:06 am

Panos..brutal sweeping generalisations, much?

free skin care · Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:42 pm

Just poked in today...

Sheeshka, what happened here??

To tap-dance abit around some of it, first -

Yubs wrote:

Kath91...sorry for misreading the whole post!

Yubs, apology accepted. Btw, I don't live in a glass house (would be interesting, though) and my DH does think I spend too much money. Very Happy

Yubs wrote:

...The post was snarky and full of insinuation and contributed nothing to the duscussion...

Bethany's post did not insinuate anything but just relayed facts that during her on line research she came upon some questionable postings. Furthermore, she DID contribute to the discussion (i.e. my post) re the lack of ethics in the manipulation of social networks.

If you read this is again where she states her point again (although I initially understood clearly her original post) re the matter at hand - given, again, the context of my post:

bethany wrote:

BTW, my point in mentioning that is that we really can't trust in anything we see online these days. Celebs and companies buy followers as mentioned above, and companies also negotiate for positive product reviews. Someone shared an email with me recently where the company specifically asked for a positive review in exchange for a discount...this happens all the time.

Of course someone that is very enthusiastic about a product may go leave positive reviews on 5+ different sites, but the likelihood of that is very slim.

I think bethany is tactful enough not to want to or have to name names but as her post specifies she only wanted to share the fact that even an EDS member can resort to online marketing shenanigans. IMO, esp for me, its a valuable rule of thumb to be mindful of as I navigate through this Forum. (see also Lotusesther's post above) Adding, even if I did have names/identity of shills, I don't have the innate grandiosity to reveal that information publicly.

Yubs wrote:

...I say if you're not going to make it clear then drop it and move on...

Yubs wrote:

...You're just annoyed that I called out on something you wrote, or that I'm not arguing for the right "side"...

Yubs, isn't the right side *integrity* in ethics & sales?

Yubs wrote:

I have not heard nothing but insinuation and innuendo around here regarding ethics and sales and whatnot...

errr...Yubs, this thread is entitled Ethics & Sales.
Anyway, maybe now that you've got *it* all out of your system about it *around here*, (despite in doing so, unfortunately and sadly, used bethany as a scapegoat), you'll still be participating around this Forum.

@bethany, I've not seen you compromise your integrity here or elsewhere (for that matter), please, keep that wonderful information you produce/possess flowing.

free skin care · Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:41 pm

Lord have mercy!

free skin care · Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:34 am

Well, that's awfully discouraging to read.
What makes one online forum draw more readers than another? ...the quality of the discussion.
It's really unfortunate. When people begin to lose confidence in what they can gain from a site, they go elsewhere...when the most knowledgeable and helpful posters leave, the rest beat feet and then the forum dies...I have seen it time and again. Because there are no disclosure rules here, the only way I know of gaining confidence in a poster's writing is to watch their writing styles and posting patterns...i.e. - do they only show up to tout one product, never showing up on other threads? do they ask questions? are they knowleageable about skincare in general? do they "cheerlead" one brand over others, over again?...this helps me to focus on the valuable posters and ignore the rest. Over time, I find myself only clicking on certain names..

free skin care · Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:20 am

Keliu wrote:

I notice that the posts which resulted in Kassy's response of "Lord have mercy" have now been removed. So I'll just echo Kassy, "Lord have mercy!"

Unless something is wrong with my browser window, Kassy's response of "Lord have mercy" came LONG AFTER the posts to which Keliu likely refers were deleted. Kassy made her remark on Sunday the 25th; the other controversial posts were deleted early/middle of last week (around the 21st, 22nd, or 23rd). As the etiology of the tangential controversy (not Ethics and sales) in this thread, I think it's safe for me to say that. I was "heavily moderated" in this thread.

Also have to say that although I don't always agree with the mods (like in the instance of this thread and others where I was moderated), after some thought I do think they do try to do a good job of keeping the forum going without squelching freedom of speech. It's a fine line between "editorial fascism" and letting a discussion board descend into anarchy because of a couple of opposing viewpoints (one of my jobs was to moderate a forum for a while so I know) and it's unfortunate that some adults here don't seem to understand that freedom of speech extends to people who say things they don't necessarily like or want to hear, as much as it extends to their views and opinions. Or even that if moderation were more draconian here, as they seem to want, that their behavior might actually put them on the wrong side of it. Does anyone really think EDS needs heavy moderation like at Skin Bio or Sarah Vaughter's forum?

I also think if it weren't for the fairly even-handed moderation this forum would quickly turn into an echo chamber where opinions and points that go against the grain of a handful of strong posters who have more time and energy to devote to forum dynamics than others would quickly be overshouted and overwhelmed. While that would probably suit this handful of people, it's good for the overall health of the forum that it doesn't happen.

FWIW, the "handful" changes periodically. It's not always the same handful...but the phenomenon seems to be peculiar to all forums that are not well moderated.

We should all also remember that this forum is supported by *a business*. Someone is paying for this bandwidth we use so freely, and especially those who do not buy products regularly from EDS should not complain about how this for-profit business uses the bandwidth they pay for us to use. EDS doesn't sell half the stuff we discuss here, so they're essentially paying for us to play. Even if they get a tax write-off to support this forum, this forum is also huge, so it's no inconsiderable expense and it's unlikely they're able to write off all of it. In light of that, if anyone *really* wants an echo chamber for only opinions and people they think are "correct", they should probably consider starting their own forum and moderating as they see fit. It's a big hassle and expense, and it's not easy to moderate well enough to suit a large group of people as has been done here, which is why so many forums are short-lived. Participation goes down because people get sick of the lack of diversity. But if the diversity of opinion here is that distressing, and people can't see the larger view of why the diversity shouldn't be squelched, it's always an option.

free skin care · Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:52 am

Barefootgirl wrote:

what action do we take?

In the past, I've seen posters here tout their great results and post photos of themselves - all while at the same time, appearing in online advertisements for the same products. I pointed out this out to one particular poster - that she should make her affiliations clear, but she continues to post here without doing so...so there you go.

Perhaps if we find this out, we can share the info privately or offline. I am willing to do so.

BFG

CookieD wrote:

BFG, I think if you find out about a conflict of interest with a member on EDS you should report it to the mods and let them deal with it.

ETA: I am concerned that I see whole post disappearing from EDS on a much regular basis lately.

CookieD I will tell you whom Barefootgirl is referring to: It is I. All this talk about people should come clean and whatnot is hot air because what she wants is a conspiracy theory or drama, not the truth. I know this because she has gotten the truth before but she still wants to beat this topic into a pulp.

Not only has she come out and asked me the question directly (and you will see from her posts below that the beating about the bush she was doing with the last post above is clearly about me) but I also answered her honestly. Yet she continues to insist that I need to come clean. So clearly she doesn't want the truth. She just wants to stir trouble where none exists. Let me show you what I mean.

For those who don't know, hooded (upper) eyelids run in my family (not under eye bags like someone once tried to twist my words to imply). I used to have hooded eyelids. I didn't think there was anything wrong with them and when I started face exercises, I didn't do them to change my eyes. But over the years, my eyes changed and stopped being hooded. So when I saw a discussion about an upper eyelid lift, I joined the discussion to offer an alternative in case someone was interested--just as I would hope someone would share tips they know with me if they saw me looking for a solution to a problem. It's what I do. If you look for my posts in any forum I have been a part of, what I do 90% of the time I'm posting is share information. I do this for free. I've even been asked to write a book or start a blog several times but I've not been interested.

Anyway, this is the link to the discussion in which BFG addressed this with me, if anyone is interested in reading the whole thing http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=44406, otherwise I will put out the relevant exchange between me and Barefootgirl below. (BTW when she started these string of threads in The Lounge talking about ethics and full exposure and whatnot, I wondered if this was directed at me because I had a moment of deja vu, but I dismissed it since we'd already been through this and I refused to believe she'd be this messy.)

So I was very active in that thread and because I find it hard to believe people when they make crazy claims without showing receipts, I make a point of backing up whatever I claim I make with evidence; so I posted photos of my family's eyes and mine before face exercises so people could see the change face exercises have made to my eyes (genetics defied) and hopefully be encouraged. I also posted results other people have had. My results by the way I got not with the program I do today (the one BFG seems to have an issue with) but with a previous program I did for 15 years starting in 1990.

This is where she started her indirect accusations:

Barefootgirl wrote:

I've been coming to this wonderful forum for several years now.

It's been my experience that the only time we ever see controversy here is when we get tangled up with people who have a financial interest in the products or procedures they are touting.

Other forums require disclosure of such. I don't know why EDS doesn't. Keeping shills around reduces the value and relevance of the forum.

It seems legitimate for a poster to come here to discuss or show photos of something they've done that worked for him/her...but when you start speaking for the success of others who aren't here - your motives are suspicious.

BFG

BTW, in that thread, I posted the results of many people who do face exercises. Not just of those who do Carolyn's Facial Fitness program, which is the program I do now, but rather I posted many other programs' results because my point was to show that face exercises can achieve results similar to getting cosmetic work done. I don't understand how that makes my motives suspicious, or is she claiming I'm on every face exercise program's payroll? Rolling Eyes

I don't know about the rest of you but seeing the results of one person tells me nothing. How do I know that person doesn't just have good genes? To me seeing many other examples of results gives credence to what's being shared and because I like to do unto others as I would have them do unto me, I don't give half info if I have more. I share EVERYTHING I can think of in order to leave no stone unturned. If BFG prefers that folks just believe her testament alone w/o proof, then she can knock herself with that. I prefer to do things differently and it doesn't make me suspicious. I'd think making claims of wonderful results w/o any proof and then adding a disclaimer that you aren't getting paid to tell us so when no one asked you looks way fishier to me (along the lines of "She doth protest too much!"). But anyway, I guess we all think differently.

So anyway, my response to her post:

Nonie aka AD wrote:

Barefootgirl wrote:

I've been coming to this wonderful forum for several years now.

It's been my experience that the only time we ever see controversy here is when we get tangled up with people who have a financial interest in the products or procedures they are touting.

Other forums require disclosure of such. I don't know why EDS doesn't. Keeping shills around reduces the value and relevance of the forum.

It seems legitimate for a poster to come here to discuss or show photos of something they've done that worked for him/her...but when you start speaking for the success of others who aren't here - your motives are suspicious.

BFG

LOL BFG since I am the one who's given examples of people who are not here guess it is I you are suspicious of eh? Funny the logic you use. I have used enough of my photos, more than I have ever posted elsewhere on this forum as proof of what I share. It just so happens that I am not the only one and unlike some people who may just love to toot their own horn and who are satisfied by just one story, I prefer more evidence than that. So far in this discussion my age and the fact that I started faced exercises early has been given as the reason I have had success. How else could I show that to be inaccurate without finding photos that fit the bill? I can't use mine. They have been deemed unhelpful, hello?

As for monetary gain, I guess you must know a bunch of selfish people who would not do anything unless there was something in it for them moneywise or people who aren't passionate about their beliefs. Or is it that no one has ever done something so good for you that you wanted to give them a review just for the heck of it? I mean, heck, what sort of people do you hang around?

I happen to spend hours on forums sharing stuff I know about hair, skin, face exercises, health, cats, etc and I don't get a cent for it. I have been a member one forum since 2003 and I think I have only started a handful of threads in that forum. The rest of the time I spend there is done to help people. When I come to this forum I browse through to see if there is a topic for which I can share useful info. And I never share anything I am not sure about. So forgive me for actually caring enough to put up with all I have been dealt since I joined EDS (not in this thread) in order to help others. I don't gain anything from sharing what I share. I don't even do Eva's program or Deb's but I talk about them because they help me explain what I am sharing at that time.

So quit making assumptions about people you don't know. Coz whether you wanna believe it or not, there are people with hearts big enough to give their all for free and to fight for what they believe with all they've got. Smile

She then came straight out and asked the question that was eating at her and you can see my response to her:

Nonie aka AD wrote:

Barefootgirl wrote:

Nonie,

Yes or No answer, please if you want to back up your helpfulness claim.

Do you derive ANY financial gain from the regimen you suggest?

Thank you, bfg

I just answered that in my last post, so I suggest you read that and get your answer there.

You're welcome. Smile

Because she either didn't read my long post or didn't care to know the truth, she accused me of not answering her--a misconception that was also corrected by another poster:

Nonie aka AD wrote:

Barefootgirl wrote:

Your un-answer is very telling.

I think we know the truth.

bfg

Bwahahahahaha! Bad Grin

Un-answer my foot. OK, here's your answer to the redundant question--redundant since I had JUST talked about that before you asked: NO I do not get any monetary gain for any of the face exercise programs I recommend. Razz

You would just love it, wouldn't you, if I were getting paid huh? Give you something to get all smug about.

Already someone suggested I was a specialist. WRONG! You suggest I'm getting paid. WRONG!

Can't understand my sort eh? Don't know how anyone could care so much about strangers to put out so much of themselves for nothing eh? Love it when folks can't figure me out. Hee hee hee!

BTW, my friends have asked me why I don't blog or have Youtube vids since I have so much to share. Some have even suggested I write a book or start my own program. Nah! Haven't got the time or patience for any of that. Don't think I'd be able to keep it up. I love forums coz I can post when I want and not have to feel the pressure to keep up with posts unless I want to.

Yes, BFG, I don't just work at being beautiful on the outside; I do try to be beautiful on the inside too. And selfless giving is part of that effort. Wink

Firefox7275 wrote:

Barefootgirl wrote:

Your un-answer is very telling.

I think we know the truth.

bfg

How is this an un-answer?
"I happen to spend hours on forums sharing stuff I know about hair, skin, face exercises, health, cats, etc and I don't get a cent for it."

Now after both I and Firefox7275 clarified for her, she thanked me and I assumed we'd put this nonsense to rest so never returned to the discussion:

Barefootgirl wrote:

Thank you Nonie for the clarification, it is good to read that in writing.

It sends off signals when a particular poster consistently shows up to tout a particular product or service, but rarely participates otherwise in the forum or never or rarely discusses other products/procedures, etc.

I just posted the case of the Lifestyle Lift above if you are interested in reading the problems there.

bfg

Until today, I didn't realize that she had gone back and posted something else. If I didn't know better, I'd swear she was writhing with jealous or just has it in for me or something--or wait, maybe it is she who is getting paid to pick on me? 8-[quote="Barefootgirl"]who'd be fattening her pockets for this sort of thing. Bad Grin

Barefootgirl wrote:

I just recalled something else. Nonie appears in advertisements for at least one seller of facial exercise that I am aware of, so there is a built-in bias.

In a community such as this one, where trust should be paramount, it would seem the ethical thing to do for anyone here who continually posts consistently positive (or even negative) reviews to disclose their affiliations up front.

The Real Self forum found itself in a jam over this very issue.

bfg

What person on this forum doesn't share positive results they get from a product they use? And wouldn't anyone be partial to something they themselves like because of how well it works for them? What makes her post laughable is the fact that while I may be biased toward a program that saved my face when I thought I was doomed after another one messed it up and which continues to deliver results even today, I have praised face exercises of not only that one program. So exactly what is her point? And why shouldn't I be biased toward something that has worked so well for me? I don't see her fussing over the bias other people have over programs they like. What about the bias she has shown for things that worked for her? Does that bias make her belief in them poppycock? So I love CFF so much that I'm willing to put my face where my words are because unlike many people, I'm not exaggerating or telling lies it makes me suspicious? Exactly what is her problem? I thought the theme of this thread was people who get paid to give false claims about a product. So if I'm not just giving praise but actually showing you that it does what I say it does...that makes me suspicious? And her post about her wonderful results with no evidence is supposed to be less suspicious? And just because she says she isn't getting paid we're supposed to believe her? See how crazy this can get? Laughing

And to answer her point about me not participating in other discussions, I don't go into discussions of things I don't care about or plan on using. I don't even know what actives are and don't use many anti-aging products. I go into discussions that cover things I know or care for. So there!

If you go to the Lounge, you will see a thread about thighs in which I mention programs I have used to shape my body and I share photos too. I am biased toward those programs because they worked for me. Doesn't mean I am getting paid for gushing about them. I have turned so many people to the things that have worked for me because unlike many people who just talk but cannot back up their words with proof, I don't sing praises of anything for which I cannot show you what it has done for me. And it just so happens, my recommendations have worked for people. Also in the Lounge you will see that when Fibolgbred told me about EVOO being good for nails and I tried it, I returned to share the results I got from following her advice even giving her credit (and no she didn't pay me for that either).

In the skin forum I posted my beautiful nails that grew from stubs to lovely almost 1/2 inch tips and I shared the product that got me those results. And no I don't get paid by the guys who make the product even though I have sang its praises all over the place and turned people onto it. Oh and I have shown how well Vaseline works for my hands and argued FOR Vaseline, and again, I don't have stocks with Petrolatum companies.

Now since you bring up my advertising for CFF, let me tell you why I am on the website. First of all, I was so grateful for the help I got from Carolyn in getting my face back to how it used to be, after it had been ruined by another program, that it was the least I could do. And secondly, just like I do with every other success I experience, I wanted to show people proof of what face exercises can do and thus show anyone who has had a bad experience with face exercises, that the horrible changes do not have to be permanent, and what better place to do it that on the website of the program to which I owe my success. Thirdly, I finally got the chance to tell my story after so many lies had been told about me and I wanted the truth to be known and had a platform to do so. And it was I who volunteered my photos to Carolyn. I am shocked that you cannot believe that people can be so thankful to someone that they freely offer reviews even pictorial ones. And FYI, I will continue to support Carolyn with any updates I may have to share because she has given me a gift I can never afford to pay back. Heck if anything I should be paying her for using her bandwidth coz I am deeply and will forever be indebted to her.

So wait a minute, are you BFG saying that all other websites PAY their before/after models? That sounds so shady to me. If anything it would seem to imply that the product doesn't work that well so folks are being coerced to pretend they do. Is that why you are obsessed with there being a monetary gain? Sorry to disappoint you yet again. I'm not greedy like that and my photos are up there with my permission for free.

So Barefootgirl you can stop starting any more parallel threads trying to bait me. If your life is filled with people who only do stuff for pay, I am not that sort, which might be why I'm not in your life. I have been so blessed in my life that paying forward is something I get pleasure from doing and that comes naturally. If you go towww.longhaircareforum.com (that's the forum I mentioned in a previous discussion) and do a search for Nonie's posts you will see that this is the sort of person I am. I am not selfish with information and if something I know can help someone, you can bet your bottom dollar I will share it. I was on that forum for exactly 10 years July 1, 2003 to June 30, 2013 and have over 23,625 posts and very few of them are of me asking questions. Most of them have me sharing information and usually with photos to back up the info. And in many of those posts, I'm raving about a product that I like because it worked for me and for which I don't get paid.

So please do not confuse me with whatever crooked or greedy people you know. I happen to like being happy and seeing other people happy and if I see something worthy of praise, you can bet your bottom dollar I will sing its praises, including posting photos even if that person is not here...because as far as I'm concerned, it is worth sharing and getting the limelight. Oh and in that thread of face exercise program founders, I am not getting paid by any of the ones I've posted links or photos of. Some don't even know I am showing off their great results if they aren't members of the forum. I just happen to like the topic of face exercises and as long as a discussion comes up for which I can chime in, you can bet your bottom dollar I will, and most likely I will also post photos of people not here... coz it's just Nonie's modus operandi to use props to explain stuff. And you know what, last I checked, people do appreciate it when I do, even if it seems to rub you the wrong way.

But really, I don't understand your obsessive need to "expose" people. How about just deciding for yourself who's a crook and just living your life without drinking the KoolAid they're selling? It seems like a recipe for stress, wrinkles, heart disease, even a quick death to be worrying your head as you've been doing, trying to police the world. Laughing

Don't you have enough in your life to keep you otherwise occupied? I don't think you can win a contest with Satan, Father of Lies...and last I checked he sorta runs the show on this earth so you can bet your bottom dollar, he has lots of cohorts who fit the bill you are seeking to expose. And with such great numbers, I doubt you can round them all up. So live and let live, I say is m advice anyway. Oh and that's for free too. Very Happy

Oy bloody vey!

free skin care · Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:03 am

ETA: I am concerned that I see whole post disappearing from EDS on a much regular basis lately.

Ultimately, this is a free site, no subscriptions required, so yes, the owners decide the rules.

In my opinion, we get enough advertising in our daily lives - they're coming at us from every angle *in many forms*, so having a place where we can discuss the benefits or disadvantages of products without constant bombardment of advertising is a valuable thing AND it draws eyeballs to the site - eyeballs that will spend money here.
If they want the forum portion of the site to diminish, they can make that happen. When posters show up and only get one sided viewpoints and trite responses, they will stop coming here. It's quite simple.
I will not participlate in long winded rants and diatribes against certain posters. It's not good for anyone's mental health and doesn't add anything.

My messages about disclosure are not complicated. Those who get them, get them. Those who don't - there is nothing that will help them get it.

BFG

free skin care · Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:58 am

Kath, your link is very interesting. Having had my brushes with a few personalities I am convinced had a narcisstic/sociopathic/borderline disorder, I've done some research on that topic, myself.

However, I will say it troubles me seeing it here because when you learn a little bit about the phenomenon, it becomes easy to snap-diagnose people who act in ways we don't like, or who commit something we consider a breach of ethics, etc. The tendency to do this is analogous to med-students who learn about about obscure diseases and then become paranoid they have them or maybe their loved ones have them because they exhibit a few of the symtoms. Laughing

But it's perfectly possible for people to be (for example) weirdly tone-deaf, strident, self-centered, bafflingly repetitive or argumentative to the point of nauseam, to act in foolish ways (such as lack of disclosure), even to be manipulative to an extent, or to act in myriad other ways that we all find offensive at different times, all *without* having a personality disorder.

This is especially true on forums (or Twitter, or FB), where non-verbal cues are absent or at best replaced by emoticons, and where many of the strictures on behavior that inhibit us in daily F2F contact are absent. For example, a friend may act on a forum towards online acquaintances in ways she would never do to your face. Most of us try not to be like that, but IMO plenty of people lack the self-awareness to realize the difference.

To speak to the original point of this thread: my take is that it's entirely possible to live your life and not be taken in *without* knowing everyone's affiliations.

It's also entirely possible to help friends with their business, without being crooked or morally compromised.

Not the popularly held belief, I know, but that's where I'm at.

That's not to say I believe that people shouldn't disclose their affiliations...they should, if for no other reason than to avoid the appearance of impropriety. But IMO lack of disclosure can be due to many things, top two of which are fear and foolishness. Fear is number one, because frequently people face unpleasant consequences as a result of their disclosure, even when their intent and affiliation is entirely pure and no wrong has ever been committed. "Political hay" can be made of any disclosure by people who don't like you, and frequently is.

Foolishness is the second reason for lack of disclosure. Stuff tends to come out, so it's foolish not to just be up front about it in the first place.

To speak to the point of the link on narcisstic/sociopathic personality disorder: please be *extremely* careful slinging that label around. Everyone exhibits some of those tendencies from time to time, and especially on the internet it's really, really easy to use it on someone we simply don't like.

IMHO it's worth noting right now that only a small handful of people on this forum have commented on this thread, yet there are many, many, many worthy regular posters who I am quite sure have read it and are not vendor shills. Are these people *really* of less value to the forum simply because they haven't posted in this thread?

For myself, for the most part, these days I choose to take people at face value, until I see proof otherwise that they are not what they seem to be. That is not to say I am particularly gullible (at least, I hope I'm not Laughing

), but experience lets me know it's a whole lot more pleasant than seeing a shill (or a troll) around every corner just because someone rhapsodizes about (or has an intense, ongoing dislike for) a product.

This mindset also makes me happier than I was when (for example) a dumb lapse in judgment or an annoying personality trait was enough to make me cut someone out of my life. Black & white is frequently a hard way to go through life.

free skin care · Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:47 pm

Barefootgirl wrote:

Well, that's awfully discouraging to read.
What makes one online forum draw more readers than another? ...the quality of the discussion.
It's really unfortunate. When people begin to lose confidence in what they can gain from a site, they go elsewhere...when the most knowledgeable and helpful posters leave, the rest beat feet and then the forum dies...I have seen it time and again. Because there are no disclosure rules here, the only way I know of gaining confidence in a poster's writing is to watch their writing styles and posting patterns...i.e. - do they only show up to tout one product, never showing up on other threads? do they ask questions? are they knowleageable about skincare in general? do they "cheerlead" one brand over others, over again?...this helps me to focus on the valuable posters and ignore the rest. Over time, I find myself only clicking on certain names..

A few thoughts on ethics and disclosure rules:

A few years back a dermatologist on EDS who looked 10 years older than his actual age criticized facial exercise: He criticized the work of peers who were His age who looked 10 years younger than him who did facial exercise. He disparaged facial exercise and everyone who did it. He also sold his own skin care line and advocated surgical methods. Interesting that he looked so aged as the expert in the field. Understandably this validated my personal belief in facial exercise and made me skeptical of opinions of many doctors.

We have people on EDS who have paid major money for surgical results - To be eithical: with every post they should have to say this in response to any other result - Eye lift, Brow lift, etc - not that a product is great... they should let the audience know their surgical history. it cannot be compared to someone who is achieving results naturally. Surgery/fillers, botox is fine but give credence to the results that come in a natural way.
If you have an eyelift - of course your eye cream may have a better look if your eye bags are lifted. etc.
I know we are being fair on EDS and need to let eveyone know their baseline about things.

free skin care · Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:04 am

This scenario I have witnessed many times since I joined in 2005, and many posters have left the forums out of frustration, good and bad. Witchhunts have commenced and many innocents burned in the fire.
I also have a valued group of posters that I follow and trust. I know these names, their issues, skin types and trust-worthiness. But sadly, we have also lost some of those valued members due to the drama, accusations and fighting. There is never a cause nor a place to be mean and petty. It casts a nasty film on an otherwise pleasurable pastime.
When I first posted about the Baby Q, I was accused of hawking it even though I never promoted it. When I did the NY Times interview on it, I even said that I couldn't tell you it did a darn thing and it was like the emperor's new clothes. Surely, the Quasar people aren't paying me to say that, haha. Yet there were many times I would find an article or a Baby Q for sale with my picture as if I did promote it. Nothing I could do about that.
So sometimes we just get enthusiastic about a product (like me and IS Clinical/Phyto-C serums).
As with any product or service in any field, be it cosmetic or financial, due diligence is required. Every stock I look at before buying I use DD. I will try something but I am also willing to answer for my own actions. You aren't holding my hand to the fire.
Having been a therapist and a minister for so long, I have seen that the amount of willing victims in the world completely/overwhelmingly outnumbers those that take responsibility for their own actions.
Caveot emptor.

free skin care · Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:39 am

sister sweets wrote:

A few thoughts on ethics and disclosure rules:

We have people on EDS who have paid major money for surgical results - To be eithical: with every post they should have to say this in response to any other result - Eye lift, Brow lift, etc - not that a product is great... they should let the audience know their surgical history. it cannot be compared to someone who is achieving results naturally. Surgery/fillers, botox is fine but give credence to the results that come in a natural way.
If you have an eyelift - of course your eye cream may have a better look if your eye bags are lifted. etc.
I know we are being fair on EDS and need to let eveyone know their baseline about things.

I thought we were discussing the forum ethics in regards to members selling here without disclosing their intentions? What does any of that have to do with selling ethics? If a person notices an improvement/worsening from their baseline skin health (whether they have had former procedures or not), surely they are entitled to share their reviews here? We all know that having a procedure does not stop aging in its tracks, or change someone's skin completely from another's. Even a total facelift will mean a person trying a new product will be able to notice whether their skin improves or stays the same, just as anyone else would. This really would entail anything that a person has done to their skin would need to be listed at every review, which would get tedious. Retin A has had one of the most beneficial results to my skin as my main problem has been sun damage, but must I repeat it every time? Even though everything else I do is surely enhanced by its use? What about autoneedling? Is it natural to have a device that makes thousands of holes in my skin and makes me swell for days, or lasers? The impacts are pretty significant, and everything effects everything else. Why would we just single out people that have 'paid major money for surgical results'? A tca peel I did gave pretty major results. I'm not sure how natural it felt burning off my skin at the time. What I do know is whatever we do, skin is skin, and it continues to age, so everyone should surely be entitled to review without having to give a caveat every time only for specific things they have undergone. It would seem unfair, almost as if those kinds of interventions are looked down upon, when really there is some great help for people with issues that could not be addressed otherwise.

I fail to see where the ethical issue is with people having surgical or non surgical treatments which are deemed 'unnatural'. How is it decided what is natural? Is using an electrical device like ultrasound or microcurrent continually on the skin 'natural'? The lists of everything you have ever done that may have contributed to an accumulated result would get exhaustive. Why is there an ethical issue anyway? Unless someone is trying to sell the device or product and has put pictures up of a surgically enhanced face and claimed it is natural - and I believe we have certainly seen this here, I don't see why other regular members not here to sell need to list every thing they've ever done. Members that are here to share and learn have nothing to gain by lying about or exaggerating their results. This really only pertains to those here to promote or sell, which is what the focus of this thread is.

I also have a problem with the 'supporting friends here to sell' and the excuses made why someone wouldn't disclose that they are pushing products onto unknowing members. I also do not think there is a grey area. Just like on any blog where laws state clearly if a product was given for free it should be made clear to the public for ethical reasons, so should people certainly make their connections clear here. It is unfairly advantageous to the seller to be singing the praises of your friends products, or of something you have a sweet deal with or even get freebies from without telling people you may be a wee bit biased. This is absolutely understood elshere in cyberspace, I would hope it would also be clear here, and that we had mods to protect us from those that take advantage of the trust this kind of forum promotes.

free skin care · Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:42 am

I hope this will be my last post on the topic.
Regarding photos - if someone posts photos here demonstrating success, they are more credible if they share their entire regimen: topicals, gadgets, surgery, whatever... I recall this was the subject of a big dust up in some of the FE photos. Regarding anecdotal reports - while I sometimes find myself scratching my head, I am not going to question someone else's reports. People see what they want to see.
I have learned a lot lately about this community and I am disappointed. I am no longer naive. This sandbox is apparently dirty. I won't play here the same way - there are others cleaner and more reliable.
I simply find it unethical to not disclose affiliations.
At the end of the day, our character is all we have. I am comfortable with mine.
BFG - one last mention: I am still interested in researching and discussing verifiable claims for various products. Anyone else interested in that, contact me privately.

free skin care · Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:38 pm

Tyger wrote:

I would never be naïve enough to buy anything on the say-so of one person (even if they haven't admitted a connection to the product). Reading a range of reviews is advisable and not just on the EDS forum (it isn't the be-all and end-all!!).

When that 'one person' has been a long term member, well known and trusted, and suddenly they are claiming the most dramatic results that everyone would love to have in a particular age group, you would be surprised just how many people would (and have) 'been naive enough to buy on the say-so of this one person'. When that person has taken time to build relationships here, and has appeared to be a giving and helpful person, many find it impossible to believe that this same 'wonderful' person was actually in it for the take.

Of course there are ways to smell a rat, and now I am far more aware than I was before too, such as:

Does this member seem mainly or only interested in pushing a given product or two at any given time?

Does this member seem to have a lot of direct contact with the vendor and sets themselves up as a conduit for info, sales blurbs, links to vendor sites, often declares sales and percentages off for members if you buy now?

Has this member allowed their photos to be used for marketing any products online before?

Does this member defend the product constantly, blaming user error or other things when another member is not getting results?

Does the member claim results from the product that don't seem to be able to be backed up realistically?

Does the member constantly mention the product of the moment in other threads, even when seemingly irrelevant?

And on and on. These are the kind of checks I now make. Of course not all of them mean someone has connections they haven't made clear, but I find that if it is ongoing and there is a decent strike rate on the points above, then it's time to get suspicious of the motives.

free skin care · Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:25 pm

Oh, another one I thought of:

Does the members results seem more exciting and better than other members seem to be getting?

Remember it is not always just one person here selling a particular product.

I'm sure you get the picture, and others can think of a few too.

free skin care · Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:47 pm

Maybe it's just me but I don't know what is so hard to figure out. If you are getting ANY kind of compensation, whether free product, money, free treatments, whatever you need to disclose that. This doesn't make you a bad person but it can make you biased. People need to know that information and they can draw their own conclusions. It has been show in studies something as small as a pen given to a Doctor can influence the drug that they write a prescription for.

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