Fragmented Hyaluronic Acid
EDS Skin Care Forums Forum Index » Skincare Tools & Do-It-Yourself Skincare

free skin care · Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:01 pm

I use a mixture of regular and ultra low MW HA. They each have their charms.

http://stores.skinessentialactives.com/-strse-22/moisturizer%2C-humectant-%2Cwound-healing/Detail.bok

ULMW HA penetrates skin better but doesnt thicken a serum like regular MW HA does.

Both are so easy to work with that its a shame to buy HA serums... formula is on the link above for making an easypeasy 1% HA Serum.

I am not affiliated with SEA in any way nor do I receive compensation from them.

free skin care · Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:50 pm

Just a few thoughts on Hyaluronic Acid in general. This is such an interesting topic. I'm totally looking forward to long term reviews from those of you using the LMW-HA products.

-Our bodies continue to make HA, but like everything else, the production slows down with advancing years.. The good news is, even in us older lot, a *healthy* dermis, still enjoys sufficient HA. It's the epidermis's supply of HA that diminishes more quickly. (Hence the crepier, dryer, lined skin of older folks.)

-LMW-HA (fragmented hyaluronic acid) is simply a degraded by product of HMW-HA (high molecular weight HA).. I'm more than perplexed when reading about these *secret* gels that are touting some magical penetration of LMW-HA with their secret sauce.. Confused

Bet you guys didn't know that you can *fragment* your very own HA in a number of ways.. i.e. ozone, buffering, microwaves, irradiation, ultrasonication and even conventional heating... hmm

! Anyhow, now that you have this small molecule HA that supposedly penetrates to the dermis, please tell me what fluid you are sending along with it, so it doesn't have to *pull* the necessary water needed for expansion, from your own supply that is hydrating your cells? (Keeping in mind that HA holds 1000 times it's weight in water.) If any of you DIY'ers make your own HA serum, you have seen 1st hand how THAT magic works.. Laughing

Perhaps LMW-HA doesn't have *that* specific particle left, that actually absorbs moisture. I have no idea, so just thinking out loud.. hmm

So since HA fillers like Restylane use a good deal of saline and/or other quantities of fluid in those injections, I am just really interested to know what else is penetrating from your "gels"? If anybody has a "ingredient" list, I'd love to see it.

Here are a few links that might be interesting to some;

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0026078

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0014579399007310

free skin care · Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:00 pm

Kassy_A wrote:

Anyhow, now that you have this small molecule HA that supposedly penetrates to the dermis, please tell me what fluid you are sending along with it, so it doesn't have to *pull* the necessary water needed for expansion, from your own supply that is hydrating your cells? (Keeping in mind that HA holds 1000 times it's weight in water.) If any of you DIY'ers make your own HA serum, you have seen 1st hand how THAT magic works.. Laughing

ReCverin explained something similar on her/his thread re glycerin... deeper layers have no shortage of water, it's constantly being replenished by the blood, its the upper layers/epidermis which lacks moisture, so it's no big deal if HA/glycerin absorbs water form the deeper layers as it's going to be easily replenished. This explanation makes sense to me.

free skin care · Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:25 pm

Read article posted above by Kassie
Validates the reasons for taking antioxidant supplements throughout adulthood: to decrease oxidative stress over the long term and be certain to take precautions to maintain or improve mitochondrial DNA.

free skin care · Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:06 pm

Kassy_A wrote:

CookieD wrote:

Lotusesther wrote:

I understand that sonication is one way to fragment HA. So possibly the final results with LW or regular weight may not differ all that much...

Lotus- do you know where you read that sonication
Fragmented HA?

She might have remembered 'me' saying it. Have a read here Cookie;

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0144861705002328

Thanks Kassy. I'll have a look at it. Also thanks for the HA recipe.

free skin care · Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:22 pm

I found this interesting, and thought you might too! Just as an FYI prior to reading, be aware that rodent skin is 4 to 6 times more permeable than human skin, and human forearm skin is only *less permeable* than soles and palms.. (My take away; HA that hasn't been stripped/fragmented, seems to penetrate human skin just fine.)

Please tell me if I've missed something all together.

Absorption of hyaluronan applied to the surface of intact skin.
Brown TJ, Alcorn D, Fraser JR.
Source

Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Monash University, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.
Abstract

Hyaluronan has recently been introduced as a vehicle for topical application of drugs to the skin. We sought to determine whether hyaluronan acts solely as a hydrophilic reservoir on the surface of intact skin or might partly penetrate it. Drug-free hyaluronan gels were applied to the intact skin of hairless mice and human forearm in situ, with and without [3H] hyaluronan. [3H]hyaluronan was shown by autoradiography to disseminate through all layers of intact skin in mouse and human, reaching the dermis within 30 min of application in mice. Cellular uptake of [3H]hyaluronan was observed in the deeper layers of epidermis, dermis, and in lymphatic endothelium. Absorption through skin was confirmed in mice by chromatographic analysis of blood, urine, and extracts from skin and liver, which identified 3H as intact hyaluronan and its metabolites, free acetate and water. Hyaluronan absorption was similarly demonstrated without polyethylene glycol, which is usually included in the topical formulation. [3H]hyaluronan absorption was not restricted to its smaller polymers as demonstrated by the recovery of polymers of (360-400 kDa) from both blood and skin. This finding suggests that its passage through epidermis does not rely on passive diffusion but may be facilitated by active transport. This study establishes that hyaluronan is absorbed from the surface of the skin and passes rapidly through epidermis, which may allow associated drugs to be carried in relatively high concentration at least as far as the deeper layers of the dermis.

PMID:
10571728
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Free full text
Publication Types, MeSH Terms, Substances

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10571728

free skin care · Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:34 am

I am fairly new to this forum and generally to the subject of skin care. Not that i am not interested or do not need it,on a contrary, at the age of 52 I finally understood that relying on those expensive creams promising anything between the earth and sky would not really help in fighting aging (in my case jowl sagging).
So I have been spending time reading on this forum, what to buy and what not to, right now debating whether I shall use already purchased LMW HA or not. Some of the stuff here you guys probably already know.
The skin seems not pass through anything that is bigger than 500 Da, normally. If the substance is ionized, even bigger molecules can go through.
The article the Kassy posted (thank you) mainly looks at mice and their skin permeability, which as Kassy pointed, is different from human.
But it looks like HA fragments of anything up to 300 kDa may penetrate the skin surface. Is it good or bad? When HA takes water in itself, the skin becomes smooth and small wrinkles disappear. Great! But is ti really great?
The molecular weight of HA that is in the dermis and is part of the extracellular matrix, is about 1,000 kDa, this is the natural size of HA. I checked as well that the HA used in fillers is the same size. The fragments of HA that are less than 500 kDa, especially the ones that are less than 20 kDa, are actually inducing the degradation of collagen through promoting inflammation, which is definitely not a good thing.
It seems that the only way to increase HA in the skin is to promote its synthesis and prevent its degradation. but not on its own, collagen production is needed as well. To cut it short, based on the published articles, a sufficient supply of the building blocks and antioxidants seem to be the solution. I just learned that ascorbil palmitate and N-acetylcysteine are inhibiting the enzymes degrading HA and collagen the best, Pro-Hyp (a dipeptide form fish-derived collagen) and MoQ10 are both inducing collagen and HA production, again the strongest.
So, what HA shall I put into my DIY cream? I am now convinced it is not going to be the 10 kDa HA that i just bought.

About the liposomes and emulsion; liposomes do survive and keep their form in an emulsion, but indeed there is no evidence that they pass through the skin surface and deliver whatever they have encapsulated. The very new study demonstrated that the liposomes are broken almost immediately and the pieces are absorbed. The desing of the study was smart, they labelled outside and inside of the liposome with different dyes. Bot hod the dyes were found absorbed, which normally will be translated as "it works". But the researchers look at at the time, whether the dyes moved at the same time and close to each other, whether the liposomes were intact or not, and they were not.
This of course is important if the liposomes are used to deliver drug through the skin deep into and maybe even into the blood circulation. For the cosmetical purpose may be a slight penetration of the skin surface would be enough, depends very much what are they loaded with.

My apologies if this all is already known to you, I got so inspired by some of the posts that I started digging into the issues.
Still worried about the fragmented HA, or so called LMW HA, could not find a single article that demonstrates any benefits of using them, but there are numerous ones showing the inflammatory effect of them on dermis.
All of the suppliers of LMW, ULMW HA are talking about better skin penetration, but is it a good thing to have it there deep or better keep it on the surface?

I bought my first batch of ingredients to do my first ever Kassy's vit C serum, probably will leave the HA out.

Have a nice day, here in Europe is dark already.

free skin care · Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:35 pm

Here links to some of the most interesting articles
plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0041340

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2631323/

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18641349

Happy reading!

free skin care · Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:40 pm

Daler, from Evonik.

free skin care · Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:25 pm

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

fawnie wrote:

Daler, from Evonik.

Fawnie!!

You might have just solved the Sqoom gel dilemma! Very Happy

(By the way, I've looked over your website and your products look lovely! Maybe you can formulate a nice, affordable version of the Sqoom gels for us?)

Edited to add: Evonik requires you to register with a company name, and they probably have a required minimum purchase, so I guess it remains to be seen if we've solved the Sqoom dilemma just yet...

But maybe we can petition Skin Essential Actives and see if they'll carry it for us?

Fawnie does make very nice products. And I would personally prefer that she make up something or carry it for us rather than have to deal with someone else.

free skin care · Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:27 am

fawnie wrote:

Thank you light123, v interesting.

This article suggests that HA of 50 kDa is not pro-inflammatory, but its supported by the company Evonik which mfr's HA:

Fifty-kDa Hyaluronic Acid Upregulates Some
Epidermal Genes without Changing TNF-
Expression in Reconstituted Epidermis

Ive used 50 weight HA and found it v nice for plumping up lines. Long term? dunno yet.

Hi Fawnie, First I was excited by the results of this article, until read more on the topic i found out that knowing TNF-alpha are not activate is good but definitely not enough when looking at the inflammation cascade. TNF are related to keratinocytes, the skin extracellular matrix degradation is induced by other factors, which are not covered in this study.
No doubt LMW HA works well on plumping the skin, I just would like to be sure i will not deplete the thickness of my skin.

jimmunol(dot)org(backslash)content/177/2/1272.long

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