Dermarolling for Product Penetration ONLY
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free skin care · Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:09 pm

Apparently I sent an email to Dr. F regarding this subject before (!). Page 8 of of this very thread!!

rileygirl wrote:

jjbeacham wrote:

rileygirl wrote:

jjbeacham wrote:

I know that whereas a 0.2mm roller does not hurt in the least, a 0.5mm roller does hurt my skin. So it is reaching the area where the nerve receptors are located. I have never had blood spots or any bleeding, but plenty of pain. Does this mean I have gone deep enough to cause new collagen to be created? That is the big question here, isn't it? Calling Dr. Fernandes........ Laughing

~ JJ

I've sent an email to Dr. Fernandes regarding the 0.5 mm roller and collagen production. Will report what he has to say when he replies.

Lovely, Riley! It will be nice to have his answer to that particular question. ~ JJ

Ok, Ladies and Gents. Here is Dr. Fernandes' answer regarding collagen production and the 0.5 mm roller.

"The most important factor is the depth of penetration. Only about half of the needle can penetrate into the skin. Remember that the needle tapers and as one gets to the end of the taper, there is more resistance to penetration. I have found that a 0.5 mm needle penetrates about 0.2 mm into the skin. This is just about the depth of the epidermis and so very few if any blood vessels are ruptured. I do not believe that the main reason for the induction of collagen is from the electrochemical changes induced by rupturing cells. In my histology many of the cells seem to have been separated rather than ruptured. Blood vessels I believe have to be ruptured to get the release of platelets and the subsequent release of TGF beta 3.

I think 0.5 mm acts mainly as a penetrant enhancer and unless one is using products that will in fact enhance collagen production then one will not see any real results. Vitamin C by itself will not be adequate from my trials. Vitamin A as retinoic acid should be adequate but I believe that the photo-sensitising properties of retinoic acid make it a problem. I also think that the irritating effects from enhanced penetration also restrict its value.

1 mm and 1.5 mm will both enhance penetration and also rupture blood vessels in the upper dermis and will induce collagen regeneration through the release of growth factors."

free skin care · Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:16 pm

I was just about to ask you to contact DrF again!! But his answer has been here all along!

So it seems we have to rupture the blood vessels - something I clearly haven't been doing.

free skin care · Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:21 pm

Keliu wrote:

I was just about to ask you to contact DrF again!! But his answer has been here all along!

So it seems we have to rupture the blood vessels - something I clearly haven't been doing.

Luckily for us, someone has a better memory and pointed me back to that post! Laughing

free skin care · Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:33 pm

That's great information Rileygirl. I still wonder about other nonablative lasers like fraxel and why they make collagen and don't draw blood.
And that still makes you wonder how Dr. S got such good results from the .05 roller.

free skin care · Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:29 pm

Thanks for sharing that old response from Dr F!

free skin care · Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:00 am

CookieD wrote:

That's great information Rileygirl. I still wonder about other nonablative lasers like fraxel and why they make collagen and don't draw blood.
And that still makes you wonder how Dr. S got such good results from the .05 roller.

From the link from acaiadermacare, "In this study, patients were treated first with products and rollers added subsequently". I am thinking the results were mainly due to the A and C product being delivered deeper? Also, for the woman they show who has remarkable results, it says she used products for 18 months, and rolled for 6 months. This also leads me to believe her results were from product penetration, as it says she used the CR3.

free skin care · Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:09 am

bethany wrote:

Thanks for sharing that old response from Dr F!

You're welcome! I really should go back and see if I have anymore gems tucked away in old emails. Unfortunately, I am not sure that I kept all of them!

free skin care · Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:34 pm

rileygirl wrote:

CookieD wrote:

That's great information Rileygirl. I still wonder about other nonablative lasers like fraxel and why they make collagen and don't draw blood.
And that still makes you wonder how Dr. S got such good results from the .05 roller.

From the link from acaiadermacare, "In this study, patients were treated first with products and rollers added subsequently". I am thinking the results were mainly due to the A and C product being delivered deeper? Also, for the woman they show who has remarkable results, it says she used products for 18 months, and rolled for 6 months. This also leads me to believe her results were from product penetration, as it says she used the CR3.

I don't know if this has been posted before but this is one of the best studies I have seen that compares 4 different groups-control, product only, dermaroller only and dermaroller and product.

Now the BIG problem is it is done on rats but it has all kind of microphotographs of skin stains, charts and pictures that show gene expression changes in collagen 1,3,EGF and EGF7 at 2,4 & 8 weeks etc. So we can actually see and read much more information about the study as apposed to just seeing a chart like in Dr. S's study. Maybe this will help us determine how much skin remodeling is done by product only vs needling vs. product & needling. The study use a 3mm roller and Environ Vit A & C products.

http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/pdfs/journals/1748-6815/PIIS1748681510001798.pdf

Sixty male SpragueeDawley rats (350e375g), age 4 months, were randomly assigned into four groups: group (A) (n Z 6: control); group (B) (n Z 18: skincare only); group (C) (n Z 18: needling only) and group (D) (n Z 18: needling plus skincare).
Group (A) was left untreated, and group (B) was anaes- thetised, shaved and treated additionally with skincare in the same way as group (D). Groups (C and D) received a 30% total body surface area skin needling (10min) on the shaved back skin under general anaesthesia and analgesia (Rompun 0.3 ml kg-1 of body weight, Ketanest 1.1 ml kg1 of body weight) to induce percutaneous collagen, using a medical needling instrument (Environ! Medical Roll- CITTM, Vivida SA cc, Cape Town, South Africa) (Figure 1c and d). Shaving was done only once in groups (B), (C) and (D). The length of the needles was 3 mm which penetrates right through the epidermis down to the dermis. The end point was achieved after rolling all animals for 10 min to create thousands of microwounds in the dermis that result in a confluent zone of haematoma.

free skin care · Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:30 pm

Thanks for posting this, Cookie!

free skin care · Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:35 pm

There does seem to be two schools of thought developing between DrS and DrF when it comes to needle length. This blurb promotes the use of the 0.5mm roller once a month with the 0.3mm four times a week.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:M0tH3WWJ3UIJ:www.humannurture.com.au/documents/DermalRollingWeb.pdf+0.5mm+dermaroler+and+dr+setterfield&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiSmtU7vaUlEt7iCo_4NUX47tBJkC_ilQQlkyWIBmSWp_N6kEaW1dc5y_jPOJMJzluKZKiVtCWp_GWRX8vGfWbAOGko7Hcaw5LN3C3OrbTcQVvGdwO8itYCcEcJFcRNgtN-Flm2&sig=AHIEtbRWltnYuN-gIJ49IcvF0l1suUG55Q&pli=1

free skin care · Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:32 pm

Keliu,

Thanks for the link of the document.

The document says that we shall use 0.3mm four times a week & 0.5mm once a month. Can I use them simultaneously?

free skin care · Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:37 pm

summer2004 wrote:

Keliu,

Thanks for the link of the document.

The document says that we shall use 0.3mm four times a week & 0.5mm once a month. Can I use them simultaneously?

Yes. I do either a 0.5mm or 1.00mm once a month and every alternate day I use a 0.25mm for product penetration. I wouldn't use them both on the same day though!

free skin care · Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:38 pm

Still plowing on with my product penetration rolls about 2 or 3 times a week.

Is it normal to barely get any redness? The little I do get, (mainly on my chest), is completely gone within 20 minutes.

***I keep thinking about poor bethany, and wish I could gift her some of my clearly non-reactive skin*** Laughing

free skin care · Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:09 pm

Kassy_A wrote:

Still plowing on with my product penetration rolls about 2 or 3 times a week.

Is it normal to barely get any redness? The little I do get, (mainly on my chest), is completely gone within 20 minutes.

***I keep thinking about poor bethany, and wish I could gift her some of my clearly non-reactive skin*** Laughing

I stopped getting red after the first couple of weeks I rolled with the .02 but I don't do my chest area and my skin is not at all reactive.

free skin care · Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:22 pm

I am still trucking along (using .20) with penetration rolls. My forehead bleeds with this small needle - I cant imagine when I am brave enough to do a deep roll. I can tolerate the pain fine on my checks, but forget about the nose and the forehead is not pleasant.
Ah, the things we do for beauty!

free skin care · Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:29 pm

Glad to know I'm not the only one Cookie, thanks for sharing.. Very Happy

@erg, I honestly don't feel much of a difference between the 0.25 + the .05mm. What's even more of a surprise, is that I am not at all sensitive to forehead and upper lip areas....Not even one sneeze!

I'm so mad at myself for procrastinating so long.. Don't let that happen to you. Just suck it up, and get a rollin' with a BIGGER one... Very Happy

free skin care · Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:32 pm

Yea, I am glad I am doing it. I am very tolerant to pain, but I have to psych myself up to do it. Getting ready to do one now.

It will be worth it. I am not sure if it is dermarolling or the AALS but my forehead wrinkles are SOOOO much better.

Edit to add: good to know you dont feel a huge difference in the longer needle. I am still deciding between .5 or .75 to get to that collagen!
Smile

free skin care · Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:49 pm

erg wrote:

I am still deciding between .5 or .75 to get to that collagen!
Smile

If I had it to do over again, I would have went straight for the .75mm. I honestly don't think the .5 goes deep enough on my mid face/cheek area.

It's a swift PITA trying to figure it all out. We have different depths of skin everywhere. How is one to know with certainty? There's a chart on one of the E-bay links for the "MT" roller, and it shows the depths in different areas of the face + neck. Frankly, after reading it, I've been concerned that I'm overdoing it around the eyes and my scrawny neck with the frequent penetration rolls. Shock

free skin care · Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:15 pm

I don't notice any difference between my .02 and .05 rollers either. I don't have any pain or bleeding. What does hurt a little and sometimes draws a couple blood spots is the Lyapko roller I bought to toughen up my skin for the big gun rollers. I do roll pretty hard with it but no harder then the real dermarollers. I don't know what the difference is.

free skin care · Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:28 pm

I just did one, look like a lobster.
Applied my GHK, then oil serum. Glad my boyfriend is out of town!

Good point about toughing up the skin - I think I need another month of this before I tackle a deeper roll!

free skin care · Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:36 pm

Question for everyone:

After a light roll, my skin is so itchy and feels so tight (even before I apply CPs). So tight it is uncomfortable. As soon as I apply oil, it goes away. Anyone else experience this?

My skin is on the dry side, would this make a difference?

free skin care · Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:28 pm

erg wrote:

Question for everyone:

After a light roll, my skin is so itchy and feels so tight (even before I apply CPs). So tight it is uncomfortable. As soon as I apply oil, it goes away. Anyone else experience this?

My skin is on the dry side, would this make a difference?

I don't really experience dryness but my skin is oily so that probably does make a difference.

free skin care · Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:04 pm

Finally! A device I can use for penetration purposes without looking like a lobster the next day. But this thing is TINY....there is no way you could do your whole face. I am just treating trouble areas. It sure does not look like much for the money, but it is the only one I can use daily.

If you have sensitive skin, this is it. If you don't, don't waste your money....go for a roller.

Quote:

Environ Cosmetic Focus CIT

$59.99

Environ Cosmetic Focus CIT is a small micro-needling tool that is 'patted' across the skin to boost the penetration of Environ's skincare creams - it is a mini-version of the full-featured Cosmetic Roll CIT.

Measuring just 5cm in length, the device consists of 15 needles, measuring 0.2mm, set in a 1.5cm diameter head, allowing users to target specific, traditionally difficult areas to reach, such as the mouth, eye area and frown lines.

Customers wanting a full micro-needling treatment would better be served by the full-size Cosmetic Roll CIT which has a greater micro-needle penetration depth.

The Focus-CIT is to be used between two and seven times per week after toning and cleansing for a time period of between 10 and 15 minutes in order to achieve maximum effect.

http://www.touchofskincare.com/environ-roll-cit/environ-devices-focus-cit.html

free skin care · Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:51 pm

I ended up switching to the Environ roller, and am using the Environ Focus CIT just on my glabella lines.

I have major issues with inflammation, and this is the only roller that I can use for penetration and not looked like a lobster on day 2. I assume it is because the needles are thinner, and the Dr. Roller and Owndoc knockoffs have now been relegated to my arms. I can use the Environ rollers 2x a week now on my face, but the others cause so much inflammation that I can only roll my arms 1x a week.

free skin care · Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:10 am

bethany wrote:

I ended up switching to the Environ roller, and am using the Environ Focus CIT just on my glabella lines.

I have major issues with inflammation, and this is the only roller that I can use for penetration and not looked like a lobster on day 2. I assume it is because the needles are thinner, and the Dr. Roller and Owndoc knockoffs have now been relegated to my arms. I can use the Environ rollers 2x a week now on my face, but the others cause so much inflammation that I can only roll my arms 1x a week.

I have this roller as well, and the needles are definitely thinner. I also have major inflammation issues, and stopped using it in favor of ultrasound. I may have to pull it out and give it a shot again.

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