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Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:57 am  |
| 41yearsyoung wrote: |
| : Also, being an LPG product I am worried about later sagging due to the suction, especially on the face. Facial skin is so delicate that the suction has to have an affect eventually wherein creating some kind of increased sagging after time. Where with the STOP, from what I have read only works under the skin to build up the collagen in the dermis. Very interested in your comments. Cheers! |
You might be interested in this thread:
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=27735&highlight=cupping+skin+tightening
It's all about a suction device called the Vaculifter that is supposed to tighten the skin. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:39 am |
| I am so used to just reading and new at the writing that I didn't even think of reading around a bit. Just was thrilled when I saw something about the wellbox. Thanks for the thread to read. I will definitely check it out. I have read heaps and heaps but don't think I saw that. Thank you very much. |
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41yearsyoung |
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Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:46 pm |
| 41yearsyoung wrote: |
| I am so used to just reading and new at the writing that I didn't even think of reading around a bit. Just was thrilled when I saw something about the wellbox. Thanks for the thread to read. I will definitely check it out. I have read heaps and heaps but don't think I saw that. Thank you very much. |
We try to keep the threads focused on the title topic, but you can see that there are threads for almost everything you might be interested in. And if there isn't, you can start a new one!  |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:48 pm |
I am going to quote myself since we got a bit off topic, and see if anyone has any insight on the question I asked earlier....any thoughts are appreciated!
| bethany wrote: |
...one of the things I have been thinking about is how does the STOP keep new collagen from shrinking?  I really don't think it can be that selective. So if you use it weekly (or even every 2 weeks), aren't you really just shrinking the collagen that you just developed?  |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:24 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
I am going to quote myself since we got a bit off topic, and see if anyone has any insight on the question I asked earlier....any thoughts are appreciated!
| bethany wrote: |
| ...one of the things I have been thinking about is how does the STOP keep new collagen from shrinking? I really don't think it can be that selective. So if you use it weekly (or even every 2 weeks), aren't you really just shrinking the collagen that you just developed? |
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My guess is that it's just the aged skin with less collagen (or damaged collagen?) that would be affected in that way, and the new collagen would be formed that way to begin with. If I'm understanding it correctly, isn't skin tightness or laxity due to the way the fibers are knit together? So the new collagen would behave as usual, and the skin with less collagen/elastin would, in theory, tighten up. If you're among the lucky people who get that effect, that is.
Totally speculating here, so take this with the proverbial grain of salt. |
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Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:27 pm |
| 41yearsyoung wrote: |
| PhilipWB wrote: |
Bethany wrote:
| Quote: |
Philip - that is a great choice. Skin can only remodel so quickly, and all these tools, etc., can really fatigue your skin. That's also why I will not dermaroll more than every 3-6 months now.
Plus, one of the things I have been thinking about is how does the STOP keep new collagen from shrinking? I really don't think it can be that selective. So if you use it weekly (or even every 2 weeks), aren't you really just shrinking the collagen that you just developed? |
Bethany, I totally agree, I think I am going to spoil my skin with lots of nice creams and pump it with moisture and give it time to rest.
I did buy a Wellbox about a year ago when they were first released in the UK. I used the firming program on my face and neck the other evening and the firming was very noticeable and my skin was glowing. I will give STOP and a rest and start using the Wellbox in about a month.
I need to focus on the garden for a while. 
PWB. |
 I am totally interested in the Wellbox and would love to hear how this works for you. Can you keep us updated. Is it for the face only or also for body. I have a brochure from a conference but it is in French and I didn't get too much out of it. I have heard some interesting this about it. But did hear that it take much more time that what the POSE is claiming. Also, being an LPG product I am worried about later sagging due to the suction, especially on the face. Facial skin is so delicate that the suction has to have an affect eventually wherein creating some kind of increased sagging after time. Where with the STOP, from what I have read only works under the skin to build up the collagen in the dermis. Very interested in your comments. Cheers! |
I am finding the Wellbox an interesting piece of equipment, will keep you updated, but my experience is the skin feels VERY taught, firm and radiant when treating the face, the Wellbox doesn't really suck the skin but gently pinches it.
I ordered my POSE today from STOP, should get it early April, so will report back on that too.
Off to do some dermarolling.
Philip |
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49, male, using STOP, Wellbox, Nuface, Baby Quasar, LightStim, New-U, Tao Viso, UP5, dermarolling, and Cleo II |
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Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:11 pm |
...one of the things I have been thinking about is how does the STOP keep new collagen from shrinking? I really don't think it can be that selective. So if you use it weekly (or even every 2 weeks), aren't you really just shrinking the collagen that you just developed?
If the STOP was having an adverse effect on newly generated collagen, it would also have been having an adverse effect on OLD collagen from the moment you started using the device. Therefore, the whole process would be completely negative. I thought it was supposed to be stimulating collagen - therefore the effect should be cumulative. Isn't it supposed to be just shrinking the elastic fibres that support the skin to snap them back into place? |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:12 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
...one of the things I have been thinking about is how does the STOP keep new collagen from shrinking? I really don't think it can be that selective. So if you use it weekly (or even every 2 weeks), aren't you really just shrinking the collagen that you just developed?
If the STOP was having an adverse effect on newly generated collagen, it would also have been having an adverse effect on OLD collagen from the moment you started using the device. Therefore, the whole process would be completely negative. I thought it was supposed to be stimulating collagen - therefore the effect should be cumulative. Isn't it supposed to be just shrinking the elastic fibres that support the skin to snap them back into place? |
Here is what the STOP website says:
| Quote: |
Immediate Results: Collagen fibers in the dermis are heated by the TriPollar™ RF energy forcing them to contract. This contracting of collagen fibers results in immediate skin tightening that can be seen after the first treatment.
Long Term Results: By using the STOP™ device 2-3 times a week for 6-8 weeks, the fibroblasts are stimulated to produce more collagen, creating a thicker dermis layer that will provide better support to the skin while minimizing the appearance of wrinkles and fine lines.
http://www.stop-age.com/how-it-works.php |
Here is a little more info from the Pollogen site:
| Quote: |
Regeneration occurs by an increase of fibroblast activity, the contraction of collagen, and a remodeling of new collagen and other dermal matrix proteins.
The elastic fibers of the skin, collagen and elastin are produced by a skin cell, the fibroblast. As they contract, collagen strands are pulled closer resulting in immediately tightened skin (immediate results). Followed by collagen remodeling and regeneration over the full treatment course (long term results).
Clinically proven on all skin types to regenerate collagen, tighten and tone the skin and improve overall skin laxity. TriPollar treatments can gently and effectively tighten the skin on your face, neck, arms.
http://www.pollogen.com/int/tri_tech.html
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And the real meat of the matter...from a Tripollar long term study:
| Quote: |
RF energy for medical procedures has been usedfor many years. When applied to tissues between two electrodes the RF current generates heatthrough resistance of the dermis and subcutaneous tissue. This source of heat has been extensively used in surgery for hemostasis and tissue ablation(electro-surgery), but more recently it has been applied as a means of shrinking redundant or lax connective tissues through the mechanism of collagen denaturation.
Collagen molecules are produced by fibroblasts which synthesize three polypeptide chains that wrap around one another in a triple helix. The phenomenon of thermal shrinkage of collagen begins with denaturization of the triple helix of the collagen molecule. When collagen is heated, the heat-labile intra-molecular cross-links are broken, and the protein undergoes a transition from a highly organized crystalline structure to arandom, gel-like state (denaturation).
Collagen shrinkage occurs through the cumulative effect of the “unwinding” of the triple helix, due to the destruction of the heat-labile intra-molecular cross-links, and the residual tension of the heat-stable intermolecular cross-links (Ref 1). Heated fibroblasts are also implicated in new collagen formation and subsequent tissue remodeling which can also contribute to the final cosmetic result. The precise heat-induced behavior of connective tissues and the extent of tissue shrinkage are dependent on several factors which includes the maximum temperature reached, exposure time, tissue hydration and tissue age.
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:Kr9MRVrnzHoJ:www.tripollar.co.uk/CaseReports/Dr_Omer_CS.pdf+tripollar+radio+frequency+heat+collagen&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us |
So...is denaturing your new collagen good or bad? It sounds to me like 2 things are happening:
1. It cooks your existing collagen to tighten your skin
2. It causes the fibroplasts to generate more collagen to replace what you just cooked.
That said, I am now right back at my "less is more" outlook and I can see why they recommend maintenance as every 2-4 weeks. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:28 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| charis wrote: |
| Sorry to get off topic, but I think people should be warned about the potential of this product to cause harm. Enough said. |
No, that is not enough said. What actual proof have you that harm has been done? Have you personally viewed Kassy's skin both prior to and after treatments? You cannot accurately determine skin damage from a set of photos published on the net. I don't wish to call into question Kassy's results - if she feels that the STOP has been detrimental to her skin, then so be it. However, as a professional photographer, I know how very difficult it is to take accurate photographs of the condition of the skin. To make a proper comparison, all conditions need to be equal - lighting, focal length of the lens, exposure etc. This is next to impossible to do at home and I am sure that if this matter were taken to court, this particular argument would be made by any good defence attorney.
I would also point out that this is not the first time that Kassy has experienced a problem from using a skin device. This was posted on the "Any Dermawand Users Out There" thread on October 28, 2007:
"OMG!! I'm 55 and received and used Derma Wand for the first time yesterday exactly according to instructions. I woke up this morning with broken caps + spider veins all over my cheeks and chin. My chest is also extremely red and looks like chicken skin...I'm so upset I don't know what to do now. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
For the record: My skin is fair with only the beginning signs of aging ie; laugh lines, puffy under eye, slight skin slackening. I did have the "chicken skin" + redness from sun damage, but it completely disappeared after a vigilant month of LightStim use. My skin responded wonderfully to treatment with the "LightStim". I also woke up with what looks like a lot of fluid filled pouch bags under my eyes.
Should I just continue with the LightStim? Should I wait a few days and then try the Derma Wand again in a different manner? I don't know what to do now. I'm also desperate for any words of wisdom from all of you "Guru's" about how to minimize the pouchy bags I now have which are 50% worse than they were."
I happen to remember this incident because I replied to her post. To my knowledge, Kassy is still using the Dermawand, having sorted out her issues with it.
I have a feeling that I might now upset Kassy in posting this (I certainly hope not) but I want to make it quite clear that this type of incidence happens allot - not to just Kassy, of course, but to ALL of us.
To suggest that we should all immediately start contacting our lawyers is scurrulous and irresponsible.
Edited to add: I have just started using the Tua Viso and at this point am worried that it is actually exacerbating my marionette lines - I posted my concerns about this earlier on the Tua Viso thread. Maybe I should just contact my lawyer? |
As a Stop user myself, I agree that this whole thing is WAY overboard on the personal feelings. These are reviews, not challenges!
But this may indeed be the first time Kassy has had problems, because your quote above cannot be from Kassy, or at least not the one posting here.
The one posting in this thread is 59 years old. A poster who was 55 in October 2007 could be no older than 57 today, and only with a birthday sometime between October and March. So whomever was posting about the Dermawand in October 2007 cannot be this Kassy. |
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Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:33 pm |
Bethany, not sure if this will help you with your question or not, but take a look at this. Scroll down "De-Nature Not The New Collagen"
http://www.davidloh.sg/tighten/titan.htm |
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Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:55 pm |
This would appear to completely support Bethany's viewpoint. However, in the section where it recommends complimentary treatments to the Titan - it recommends RF treatments  It also says, "Each Titan shot delivers a very accurate and measured dose of Infrared energy into the skin." So the Titan is not RF? But I guess the principal with the collagen denaturing would be the same. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:58 pm |
| starriest wrote: |
But this may indeed be the first time Kassy has had problems, because your quote above cannot be from Kassy, or at least not the one posting here.
The one posting in this thread is 59 years old. A poster who was 55 in October 2007 could be no older than 57 today, and only with a birthday sometime between October and March. So whomever was posting about the Dermawand in October 2007 cannot be this Kassy. |
Kassy has already verified on this thread that it was indeed her that posted in the DermaWand thread.
Edited to add: I don't want to get back into all of this again - but I DO want to point out that my purpose was not to point out Kassy's experiences per se, it was more to highlight how silly it was to bring up the issue of lawsuits everytime someone has a bad experience. That is why I also mentioned Jasminerosey's experience with the AALS earlier on. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:02 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| So the Titan is not RF? But I guess the principal with the collagen denaturing would be the same. |
Correct. The Yarosh book pointed out that the skin/collagen looked exactly the same after being treated by both the Titan and RF, though they are different technologies. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:15 pm |
WOW....now that was a great article, and pretty much confirmed exactly what I thought. 
Note that they only recommended RF as an ancillary treatment IF ther was fat around the jowls that needed to be eliminated. They are NOT recommending anything that will denature the new collagen.
Now this certainly seems like something that should be mentioned in the STOP manual.
And we have people that have been using this multiple times a week since September, and people who use this regularly on their lips? (neither of which is recommended by Ultragen, I might add) Over time, that should result in ultra-compact, shrunken skin layers with very limited fully-developed collagen. Of course the chronic inflammation might make them THINK that things are just fine. Oh my.... |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:29 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
WOW....now that was a great article, and pretty much confirmed exactly what I thought.
Note that they only recommended RF as an ancillary treatment IF ther was fat around the jowls that needed to be eliminated. They are NOT recommending anything that will denature the new collagen.
Now this certainly seems like something that should be mentioned in the STOP manual.
And we have people that have been using this multiple times a week since September, and people who use this regularly on their lips? (neither of which is recommended by Ultragen, I might add) Over time, that should result in ultra-compact, shrunken skin layers with very limited fully-developed collagen. Of course the chronic inflammation might make them THINK that things are just fine. Oh my.... |
Yikes! I haven't read all the links yet, but so much for me thinking I had some kind of idea of the specifics re: collagen formation.
Thanks for all the info being shared, ladies! Armed with this info, and combined with your personal experiences - do you think it's worth it? Do you think it may be helpful in certain areas of the face, perhaps?
Also, I'm still wondering if there isn't some specific variable that sets the Stop device apart. |
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Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:35 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
| And we have people that have been using this multiple times a week since September, and people who use this regularly on their lips? (neither of which is recommended by Ultragen, I might add) Over time, that should result in ultra-compact, shrunken skin layers with very limited fully-developed collagen. Of course the chronic inflammation might make them THINK that things are just fine. Oh my.... |
It just hit me....the perfect example of what skin with TOO much STOP usage on a long term basis would look like.....
....anyone remember SHRINKY DINKS? |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:37 pm |
Darn, I am sitting here cracking myself up. 
| Quote: |
Shrinky Dinks are a children's toy/activity kit consisting of large flexible sheets which, when heated in an oven, shrink to small hard plates without altering their color or shape. They reached the height of their popularity in the 1980s. Most sets are pre-printed with outline images of popular children's characters or other subjects, which are then coloured in before baking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrinky_Dinks |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:44 pm |
| Lowbrowscientist wrote: |
Thanks for all the info being shared, ladies! Armed with this info, and combined with your personal experiences - do you think it's worth it? Do you think it may be helpful in certain areas of the face, perhaps?
Also, I'm still wondering if there isn't some specific variable that sets the Stop device apart. |
I think we are going to have to take this up with Dr. Azar, the head Shrinky Dink at Ultragen.
At this point, I am not certain that I would want to use it more than every 6 months max for tightening purposes. But you are just going to shrink some of what you generated in the last 6 months.
Maybe it's like Fraxel...kind of a pixelated approach to collagen cooking? But someone that is very thorough and a frequent user could probably cook a good percentage over numerous usages.
Very interesting topic. I think I was better off before I thought of this crap, lol. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:50 pm |
Shrinky dinks....Yes, I remember them.... eegads. This is what would be termed "too much of a good thing."
It makes perfect sense. Initially the denaturing of 'old' collagen and encouraging fibroblast production for collagen turnover is a good thing. Eventually you would be denaturing beyond necessary and taking away all previous collagen turnover and not allowing nature to take over with just a little help from a friend!
The immune system will work this way also if given the opportunity (ie: too much inflammation). |
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Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:39 pm |
I still don't think we're comparing apples with apples. If these home-use devices were just as effective as professional salon lasers, why would surgeons spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a professional machine when they could just be using a cheap gadget. I just don't think you can compare the two treatments. ...And as I said earlier - I have had Thermage - it was extremely painful. When the laser beam is shot into the face it feels like you've been drilled by a pneumatic drill. In no way can it compare to the soothing warmth from the STOP.
In addition to this, if the Titan uses infrared beams - does this equate to using our LED devices. So what I'm saying is, are we denaturing our collagen by overuse of LEDs too? |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:36 am |
| starriest wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
| charis wrote: |
| Sorry to get off topic, but I think people should be warned about the potential of this product to cause harm. Enough said. |
No, that is not enough said. What actual proof have you that harm has been done? Have you personally viewed Kassy's skin both prior to and after treatments? You cannot accurately determine skin damage from a set of photos published on the net. I don't wish to call into question Kassy's results - if she feels that the STOP has been detrimental to her skin, then so be it. However, as a professional photographer, I know how very difficult it is to take accurate photographs of the condition of the skin. To make a proper comparison, all conditions need to be equal - lighting, focal length of the lens, exposure etc. This is next to impossible to do at home and I am sure that if this matter were taken to court, this particular argument would be made by any good defence attorney.
I would also point out that this is not the first time that Kassy has experienced a problem from using a skin device. This was posted on the "Any Dermawand Users Out There" thread on October 28, 2007:
"OMG!! I'm 55 and received and used Derma Wand for the first time yesterday exactly according to instructions. I woke up this morning with broken caps + spider veins all over my cheeks and chin. My chest is also extremely red and looks like chicken skin...I'm so upset I don't know what to do now. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
For the record: My skin is fair with only the beginning signs of aging ie; laugh lines, puffy under eye, slight skin slackening. I did have the "chicken skin" + redness from sun damage, but it completely disappeared after a vigilant month of LightStim use. My skin responded wonderfully to treatment with the "LightStim". I also woke up with what looks like a lot of fluid filled pouch bags under my eyes.
Should I just continue with the LightStim? Should I wait a few days and then try the Derma Wand again in a different manner? I don't know what to do now. I'm also desperate for any words of wisdom from all of you "Guru's" about how to minimize the pouchy bags I now have which are 50% worse than they were."
I happen to remember this incident because I replied to her post. To my knowledge, Kassy is still using the Dermawand, having sorted out her issues with it.
I have a feeling that I might now upset Kassy in posting this (I certainly hope not) but I want to make it quite clear that this type of incidence happens allot - not to just Kassy, of course, but to ALL of us.
To suggest that we should all immediately start contacting our lawyers is scurrulous and irresponsible.
Edited to add: I have just started using the Tua Viso and at this point am worried that it is actually exacerbating my marionette lines - I posted my concerns about this earlier on the Tua Viso thread. Maybe I should just contact my lawyer? |
As a Stop user myself, I agree that this whole thing is WAY overboard on the personal feelings. These are reviews, not challenges!
But this may indeed be the first time Kassy has had problems, because your quote above cannot be from Kassy, or at least not the one posting here.
The one posting in this thread is 59 years old. A poster who was 55 in October 2007 could be no older than 57 today, and only with a birthday sometime between October and March. So whomever was posting about the Dermawand in October 2007 cannot be this Kassy. |
THis is hopefully the last thing I will say on this subject, but I think Kassy would have to make a case for how much value she has lost as a result of her experience, and that would be quite hard to do. An actress or model who could argue that they've lost jobs could put a nominal value on the issue, but Kassy would have a hard time with it. She would have to put in monetary terms how much damage was done- and then it would have to go into international law perhaps if she is in the US. It's most likely not worth the trouble.
There is a certain risk to being the first to try these gadgets and I am grateful that Kassy 'went' for it and shared her experience with us. |
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49*~~dark auburn, light, blue/green*~~ Red/Infrared/Amber LED*~~ Dermarolling*~~ Retin A*~~ Cupping*~~Homeopathic HGH*~~Ionic Footbaths*~~About to put my Incline Table Together**** See what all you people are driving me to???****Don't get me started on the supplements, you'll regret it**** Love Wins... |
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Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:39 am |
| Keliu wrote: |
I still don't think we're comparing apples with apples. If these home-use devices were just as effective as professional salon lasers, why would surgeons spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a professional machine when they could just be using a cheap gadget. I just don't think you can compare the two treatments. ...And as I said earlier - I have had Thermage - it was extremely painful. When the laser beam is shot into the face it feels like you've been drilled by a pneumatic drill. In no way can it compare to the soothing warmth from the STOP.
In addition to this, if the Titan uses infrared beams - does this equate to using our LED devices. So what I'm saying is, are we denaturing our collagen by overuse of LEDs too? |
The only way STOP can shrink skin is by denaturing the collagen, though it may not hit as much, or as deeply as a professional machine does at one time. But the pro (and con) of STOP is that you can use it far more frequently, so that negates the "not as much as a pro machine" distinction.
LEDs are FAR weaker than lasers like Titan or even STOP, so denaturing should not be an issue. But too much of anything is never good, and using any tool every day does not give your skin time to produce collagen AND recover. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:32 am |
And just to add to the general confusion, apparently collage will denature naturally at and below body temperatures, meaning collagen is thermally unstable in vitro,especially during the time period from cell extrusion to incorporation in a fiber.
" Apparently, helices confined in fibers cannot melt completely because their confinement would not allow chains to gain as much entropy as in solution (15). Nevertheless, the molecules can melt and refold locally as needed (1), giving fibers their great combination of strength and elasticity."
To summarize the study conclusions: newly produced collagen starts out organized in helices, then naturally denatures to a less organized state to facilitate incorporation into fibers, where it becomes more stable (i.e. less susceptible to thermal de-naturation) and organized again. Presumably, the application of heat via STOP speeds up the natural process.
To read the full (and very interesting) study:
http://www.pnas.org/content/99/3/1314.full
( are we having fun yet?) |
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50+, fair brown/brown, Obagi, L2K, AALS; battling: pigmentation, crepeyness, sag |
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Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:47 pm |
| tessera wrote: |
To summarize the study conclusions: newly produced collagen starts out organized in helices, then naturally denatures to a less organized state to facilitate incorporation into fibers, where it becomes more stable (i.e. less susceptible to thermal de-naturation) and organized again. Presumably, the application of heat via STOP speeds up the natural process.
To read the full (and very interesting) study:
http://www.pnas.org/content/99/3/1314.full
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Very interesting! I'll check that out later... |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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