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Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:23 pm  |
| lipper, when you found it did it say Ageless.pdf, or was it another kind of file? |
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Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:30 pm |
| bluugrass wrote: |
| lipper, when you found it did it say Ageless.pdf, or was it another kind of file? |
Well I have the GOM player, so mine might look different than people with other video players, but it says AgelessDVDcomplete.wmv |
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Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:41 pm |
| Oh, ok I had only downloaded the book. |
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Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:24 am |
Well I think your experience isn't so limited, you really know your stuff and I'm glad your here sharing it all and your kind of a facial expert!
So if you were wanting to build up the zygo how would you go about it just out of curiousity?
| cm5597 wrote: |
From my very limited experience  , I would guess that everyone will limited to a degree by their genetics pre-deposition, bone structure, previous lifestyle habits, bodyfat percentage, etc., so *exactly* that look will not be achievable for many people. But I would think that something along those lines is achievable for everyone, meaning, everyone should be able to build up and emphasize their zygomatic muscles and get a more sculpted look. This is just my guess...the facial exercise experts would know better than me |
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Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:35 am |
| cm5597 wrote: |
| Yes, exactly. For someone just beginning exercise or in the early intermediate stages, the answer is: "As you are engaging the muscle, it will have an impact." which is true...but not the whole picture. The real answer is "Engaging the muscle will always have an impact, but how your engage the muscle and your training routine do significantly matter". |
Yep agree with you whole heartedly!
| cm5597 wrote: |
Well, part of it makes sense to me and part of it does not. The part that makes sense to me is that often deep wrinkles will form in junctions between to muscles. But I'm not sure that muscles actually sag and need to snap back into place...certainly skin can sag... I mean, for example, I've never seen a sagging calf muscle, but I have seen sagging skin over a calf muscle and atrophied (very small and aged) calf muscles. I've also never heard anyone who is truly a professional in the field say that muscle sags...thinking about it, sagging muscle would mean that the muscle would have to stretch over time significantly away from the bone....Then again, I am no expert here
Also, that's not the only possible cause of deep wrinkles, as you mention. Lack of hydration, lack of fullness, skin damage, etc., are all factors. |
Yep Im in two minds about it too. I mean I have forehead lines that go across from one side to the other, and I know the frontalis is underneath them, but I can't see how they can be caused by the muscle sagging as they are in the centre of that muscle. I've always wondered if the sagging part was just talking about those ones that end into the mouth itself, as I can see how when they sag, the corners drop down, but then I've often wondered about that. Do you really think hydration lack is really all that. I know at FlexEffect they say so, but I've not really seen any other professionals out there give it such importance and I've often wondered it its just an excuse (probably due to improper technique as you say).
| cm5597 wrote: |
| Yeah, so I go either way on these. I know for a fact that diet, sleep, etc. matter a lot in training, but I do sometimes feel that they are over-emphasized relative to both technique and training schedule. My philosophical bias, from training in the gym, is that virtually anyone should be able to put on muscle, even with poor diet and more sleep. I'm not claiming optimum results here, but rather that they should be making some progress. I mean, I see people in the gym, who even at 50, eat a terrible diet, mostly of pizza, etc., but still are able to build a significant amount of muscle. But let me add: the urban legend in bodybuilding is that nutrition, sleep, etc. tend to affects one's training results more and more as one grows older, so that younger people can get great build with a poor diet, while older people need a good diet to get great build. I don't have first hand experience with this, but it is often passed along as dogma. Soooo....I think in the particular case of people who fail to see *any* muscle build, it is more likely to be a technique or training problem, than a healthy habits problem, since the number of people with diet, sleep, and other habits that are bad enough to impede any progress is small (an example would be Nene, who even when smiling too much, ran into problems with his face looking tired). BUT in terms of overall progress of the face, I think diet, sleep, massage, etc., are EQUALLY important to the OVERALL look and health of the face, as are exercise. So to sum up, I think FlexEffect is right to emphasize ALL aspects of health and they should be just as vocal as they are about it, BUT sometimes in past, I felt that they are quick to imply the that the problem might be nutritional, rather than first fully checking whether there are any problems with technique or the training regimen. For example, I can think of two very dedicated people, who quite regularly post on the FE forum, who after 1.5+ years of doing FE, learned that that their technique was just wrong and that it had been negatively impacting their progress, so I can only imagine that they are not the only ones struggling to get good results for some muscles because of inadequate technique...and certainly, I've had my own struggles with technique for a couple muscles...so I feel quite strongly about the important of both technique and the training schedule. Anyhow, I did register this small critique to Sean a while ago, among others, when he openly asked for all kinds of general feedback on the forum and a potential revamping of it. Anyhow, I hope this distinction is clear enough--that I do agree that they are equally important, but yes, every once in a while, I do feel that technique and training deserve more attention . Overall, I do feel like the FE trainers do a fantastic job, especially since they are given limited information about a person and have to piece together what is going on. |
You know that got me thinking. I mean Cathy and Deb were both bodybuilders and I've not seen them emphasis technique at all. It makes a lot of sense that improper technique could be the cause of many problems. I'm also wonder sometimes that age is a factor. Don't get me wrong, I'm 60 this year, and have had great success with facial exercises, but they were slow in coming for me for sure. I know others on the forum openly speak about being older and not getting the same results as youngsters. I remember one girl Peaprincess at one point posted photos that she was troubled with and I was soo jealous. If I had achieved half her results I'd have been one happy lady I can tell you. You seem to suggest this isn't true though. Can I ask what makes you believe this as I know when I exercised my face it was slow to respond and I know others in their mid 50s also report the same too.
Who are the dedicated people your talking about, I'd like to read up on their messages to see what your speaking of in more detail? I didn't think Sean had anything to do with the forum itself – thought it was run by Deb and Claudia mostly. Sometimes I think he adds an air of importance to himself and appears quite big headed at times I have to say.
That’s why I love EDS – its great to get this kind of information that we wouldn't get on the FE forum. |
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Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:30 am |
Thanks a lot Theresa. Its messages like this that really make me feel great about what I do and the people I try to help.
All the time I've spent helping you out via PM's free of charge with all your numerous questions, and time on my part.
To be clear on this, I've simply asked people for feedback many times during my time on the forums, simply for my own development as much as anyone elses as like many people, I'm constantly learning and relearning things and trying to ensure I give people information in easy to handle ways without overwhelming them or over complicating things.
Sorry that my attempts at self improvement seem to be yet another topic for criticism!
| TheresaMary wrote: |
I didn't think Sean had anything to do with the forum itself – thought it was run by Deb and Claudia mostly. Sometimes I think he adds an air of importance to himself and appears quite big headed at times I have to say.
That’s why I love EDS – its great to get this kind of information that we wouldn't get on the FE forum. |
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FlexEffect Trainer |
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Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:39 am |
Sean:
I don't know you and we have never communicated directly, but I have read page after page of threads in the past few weeks as I tried to gain an understanding of the types and benefits of facial exercises. For me, your posts have been among some of the most clear, generous, and helpful.
So as a lurker who has just slightly exited lurkdom as I begin to venture into facial exercises, I felt I should say thank you, as I already have benefitted from your expertise and contributions here.
Kiley |
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Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:26 pm |
Hear hear Kiley!
I am also new to facial exercise and if it wasn't for Sean and his concise descriptions of how to do or not to do certain exercises, I would be lost indeed.
Keep up the good, selfless work Sean!
| Kiley wrote: |
Sean:
I don't know you and we have never communicated directly, but I have read page after page of threads in the past few weeks as I tried to gain an understanding of the types and benefits of facial exercises. For me, your posts have been among some of the most clear, generous, and helpful.
So as a lurker who has just slightly exited lurkdom as I begin to venture into facial exercises, I felt I should say thank you, as I already have benefitted from your expertise and contributions here.
Kiley |
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Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:33 pm |
TheresaMary,
To quickly answer your questions....
* Yeah, I think it would be interesting to ask the other facial exercise experts for their opinion/experience on whether muscles do significantly sag away from the bone...I really don't know, but was guessing...
* I agree and have personal experience with hydration being a *huge* factor for skin health, mood, metabolism, and overall health. I'm in total agreement with FlexEffect I don't know the direct impact, though, of hydration on muscle-building ability.
* To be clear, technique and training are discussed on the FE boards, I just felt that sometimes they should be emphasized a bit more during the trouble-shooting process relative to the other factors that were being emphasized But I think FlexEffect has always been very clear, consistent, and spot-on that many factors affect progress. Another good illustration of this, besides Nene, is when Toby found green smoothies and they made such a difference in her lower face, and she admitted to having before thought diet wasn't so important
* I don't know the role that age plays in terms of getting progress in facial training...Rather, I was just saying that in bodybuilding, the myth is that diet and other lifestyle factors tend to matter more as one gets older....Perhaps because of the cumulative effects...?
* As for building up the zygomaticus, it's mostly the same for other muscles. If you want to build up the zygomaticus relative to other muscles, then you need to increase the resistance you apply and/or reps, while still resting long enough to recover. If you were to take the bodybuilding approach, you'd do a couple to a few sets with heavy weights/high resistance, and then rest 1-3 days, then repeat. I do something similar, but I have a lot of experience with bodybuilding, so I know what is a appropriate amount of weight, stress, and soreness for my muscles; I've been training for a while now; and I always make sure to rest for long enough....so I hesitate a bit to recommend anything specifically for others, as I would *hate* for anyone else to mess up their faces because of something I said. The one other thing I do is to dramatically vary where on the zygomaticus muscles I apply resistance and I also target the lowermost rings of the orbicular oris, as I've come to realize that they can play a small role, too, in giving the appearance of high cheekbones.
HTH |
_________________
34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:25 am |
Hi cm5597,
I found your paragraph on building the zygo's very informative, as this is an area I seem to be struggling with after stopping FE, and re-starting again. When you say you target the lower ring of the orb oris, can I ask what you do particularly? FE or another technique?
many thanks
Jackie |
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Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:20 am |
| Yikes... seems to have opened a can of worms here. Can I just say, at no point did I say you haven't helped me, and I'm truly grateful for what you have done and it seems silly to have a tantrum over a couple of comments I made, but its my personal opinion which I'm 100% entitled to. All I said simply was that you add an air of importance to yourself and seem quite big headed and this post proves just that. |
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Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:23 am |
I agree with Jackie, plus I'd love to know how you get the orb oris involved. Is it by squinting or something when you do the exercise to engage that muscle?
| Jackie284 wrote: |
Hi cm5597,
I found your paragraph on building the zygo's very informative, as this is an area I seem to be struggling with after stopping FE, and re-starting again. When you say you target the lower ring of the orb oris, can I ask what you do particularly? FE or another technique?
many thanks
Jackie |
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Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:00 am |
| TheresaMary wrote: |
I agree with Jackie, plus I'd love to know how you get the orb oris involved. Is it by squinting or something when you do the exercise to engage that muscle?
| Jackie284 wrote: |
Hi cm5597,
I found your paragraph on building the zygo's very informative, as this is an area I seem to be struggling with after stopping FE, and re-starting again. When you say you target the lower ring of the orb oris, can I ask what you do particularly? FE or another technique?
many thanks
Jackie |
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My zygomatic muscles both tend to build more slowly than my caput infra-orbitale and caput angulare muscles (and I'm in maintenance mode for the latter two), so I do more sets with for my zygomaticus muscles relative to the other two muscles and I push my muscles very hard, but I only train them twice a week. I feel in an awkward situation, as I don't want to and am not qualified to give any particular training advice, so if you do experiment with harder training but resting longer, please work with an expert or proceed extremely slowly or cautiously. Newbies should not do this at all and should stick with their program and focus on good technique and consistency, as that will bring the most results in the long-term. Intermediates could probably safely try an Ageless-type program, which is effectively equivalent to 2 sets per session, but training every other day.
Regarding the lower eye muscle, I basically just do FE's lower lid lift, but in addition to the placement in the book, I do it a little further down in three different places, at where I believe the orbicularis oculi meets (a) the caput infra-orbitale muscle, and (b) the sygomaticus minor muscle, and (c) outwards along the zygomatic arch. Basically, I also do it all along the lower edges of the eye muscle, which I determine basically by squinting my eyes and feeling a contraction and seeing how far down that extends. I don't know enough to know how far down the eye muscle extends, but it is farther than one might initially guess. I don't think the lower eye muscle is necessary to build to get high cheekbones at all, so this might be something to try for the person who wants to go the extra mile and some.
HTH |
_________________
34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:16 am |
Yeah, I genuinely think Sean is always trying to be helpful and I almost always find his posts to be incisive, well-reasoned, and generous. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, of course, and constructive criticism is always important, but sometimes in voicing our opinions, they can come across as hurtful rather than constructive, and I think that's what's happened here.
I'm sure I come across sometimes as over-reaching in what I know or otherwise annoy people or seem self-important, which is never my intent...but in the excitement of trying to share our experiences, it is always so hard to convey exactly what one means over an electronic medium...I sometimes worry what I say will be misunderstood or that I make mistakes...
Anyhow, I'm just rambling here aloud, but this just got me thinking about how hard it is to tell people's exact intent and meaning...maybe I need to be more cautious, too, and less zealous...I'm not sure yet what is the right balance between sharing experiences and referring people to the real experts...I know I do try to give people the benefit of the doubt, as I know that I would want it, too |
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34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:27 am |
| cm5597 wrote: |
| * Yeah, I think it would be interesting to ask the other facial exercise experts for their opinion/experience on whether muscles do significantly sag away from the bone...I really don't know, but was guessing... |
Right, Sean pointed out that since many facial muscles attach to the skin (different from the rest of the body), if the skin sags, so does the attached muscle. I believe Loulou's argument goes a bit beyond this, though, in that she says something along the lines of after a muscle is worked out, it won't go back to its resting position right away or hug closer to the bone...so I'm just not sure about the merits of her arguments, if nothing else, simply to the degree to which it matters...but as I said earlier, I don't really know much here |
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34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:48 am |
I'm not sure I would class Sean as an expert, don't get me wrong, he knows a lot but I think its stuff that hes read and just kind of rehashed to suit himself. I mean what qualifications does he have. In fact I suppose that really opens up a mindfield of what qualifications does someone who teaches facial exercises need to have - maybe thats something worth discussing.
Funny as I had read that posting, and I thought he was saying the muscle sags first, and then it drags the skin with it, but i'm not sure that is correct as the skin is furthest so shouldn't it be the first thing that sags!
| cm5597 wrote: |
| cm5597 wrote: |
| * Yeah, I think it would be interesting to ask the other facial exercise experts for their opinion/experience on whether muscles do significantly sag away from the bone...I really don't know, but was guessing... |
Right, Sean pointed out that since many facial muscles attach to the skin (different from the rest of the body), if the skin sags, so does the attached muscle. I believe Loulou's argument goes a bit beyond this, though, in that she says something along the lines of after a muscle is worked out, it won't go back to its resting position right away or hug closer to the bone...so I'm just not sure about the merits of her arguments, if nothing else, simply to the degree to which it matters...but as I said earlier, I don't really know much here |
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Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:22 am |
| TheresaMary wrote: |
I'm not sure I would class Sean as an expert, don't get me wrong, he knows a lot but I think its stuff that hes read and just kind of rehashed to suit himself. I mean what qualifications does he have. In fact I suppose that really opens up a mindfield of what qualifications does someone who teaches facial exercises need to have - maybe thats something worth discussing.
Funny as I had read that posting, and I thought he was saying the muscle sags first, and then it drags the skin with it, but i'm not sure that is correct as the skin is furthest so shouldn't it be the first thing that sags!
| cm5597 wrote: |
| cm5597 wrote: |
| * Yeah, I think it would be interesting to ask the other facial exercise experts for their opinion/experience on whether muscles do significantly sag away from the bone...I really don't know, but was guessing... |
Right, Sean pointed out that since many facial muscles attach to the skin (different from the rest of the body), if the skin sags, so does the attached muscle. I believe Loulou's argument goes a bit beyond this, though, in that she says something along the lines of after a muscle is worked out, it won't go back to its resting position right away or hug closer to the bone...so I'm just not sure about the merits of her arguments, if nothing else, simply to the degree to which it matters...but as I said earlier, I don't really know much here |
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Hey TheresaMary--Sean is one of the Master trainers at FlexEffect. I believe that there are only a handful and change of Master trainers at FlexEffect, and it requires certification at two prior levels, as well as two years of training clients. So I know that at least under the FE system, he is considered an expert. HTH |
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34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:26 am |
you know what MT, i'm not sure if voicing our personal opinions about people who might 'rub' against our particular configuration/nuance of impressions/perception is really appropriate here..
for one thing it is just our own nuance of perception...and since we all have different nuances of perceptions ...these conversations can go on forever..distracting from the main purpose of the thread..
of course you have your 'right' to express yourself..but it's within the appropriate etiquette of this forum....
and imo, you extended your own perception... (and of course we all think our own perception is truth ..and then ...through our own nuances of perception find ways to 'prove' that it's 'true') in a way that was hurtful and potentially harmful to another human being.... |
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71 years, primarily raw living food 35 years(vegan 45 years) herbal tea decoctions, homeopathy, TCM, facial massage, facial exercises, vacu-lifting, gua aha, shiatsu/acupressure, intention, home microcurrrent |
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Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:29 am |
| whoops...i meant TM, not MT! |
_________________
71 years, primarily raw living food 35 years(vegan 45 years) herbal tea decoctions, homeopathy, TCM, facial massage, facial exercises, vacu-lifting, gua aha, shiatsu/acupressure, intention, home microcurrrent |
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Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:30 pm |
thanks cm5597
Jackie xx |
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Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:32 pm |
TM, first Critic and now Sean ... who's next? 
The Tanaka thread took one dickens of a beating, I sincerely hope this one does not suffer the same fate.  |
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Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:40 am |
I'm sorry you feel that way Jasminerosey, and whilst I can fully understand you might not appreciate my personal opinion, its not to say that I can't express that, just the same as you or anyone else on the forum, after all thats what its for isn't it to give such feedback so we can make appropriate decisions whether on skincare, exercises or whatever else we want to know.
Likewise, in the same way you accuse me of extending my perception, I could argue that you have done exactly the same in expressing your perception of my posts, but its a tireless thing to argue over, and its not in keeping with the general discussion. At no point was I attempting to be either hurtful or harmful, simply sharing my experience which is what the forum is about isn't it - or maybe I completely misunderstood the reason for the forum.
Theresa
| jasminerosey wrote: |
you know what MT, i'm not sure if voicing our personal opinions about people who might 'rub' against our particular configuration/nuance of impressions/perception is really appropriate here..
for one thing it is just our own nuance of perception...and since we all have different nuances of perceptions ...these conversations can go on forever..distracting from the main purpose of the thread..
of course you have your 'right' to express yourself..but it's within the appropriate etiquette of this forum....
and imo, you extended your own perception... (and of course we all think our own perception is truth ..and then ...through our own nuances of perception find ways to 'prove' that it's 'true') in a way that was hurtful and potentially harmful to another human being.... |
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Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:42 am |
Firstly I hate to say it that although I'm not a fan of either - to me they are worlds apart. Critic I have wrote about many times, but I never received incorrect instructions, or assumptions of instructions from Sean. However, in the same context neither did I ever get essays as responses to my questions, and somehow with Sean it was always something I wasn't doing, never FlexEffect's fault or the system and what is clear to me and your see yourself in the forum here, with programs there is no one size fits all.
I'm in agreement with you re this thread, so lets get back onto the subject of Ageless and leave the personal attacks out of this thread.
| HippoMe wrote: |
TM, first Critic and now Sean ... who's next?
The Tanaka thread took one dickens of a beating, I sincerely hope this one does not suffer the same fate. |
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Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:45 am |
Don't know if you noticed, but they're all master trainers at FlexEffect: Sean, Cathy, Loli. There's none other that I've seen except on the workshop by Pat, who was a trainer in training (and I was hopeful about hearing more from her but she's vanished).
There's no formal qualification route from what I can make out, only that you need to have done it a couple of years! So you could probably qualify as one!
For sure the stuff your discussing is advanced and I never hear them discussing this sort of thing which I think is a mistake!
| cm5597 wrote: |
| Hey TheresaMary--Sean is one of the Master trainers at FlexEffect. I believe that there are only a handful and change of Master trainers at FlexEffect, and it requires certification at two prior levels, as well as two years of training clients. So I know that at least under the FE system, he is considered an expert. HTH |
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Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:28 am |
Hey TheresaMary,
And Claudia, her sister, and Deb are all Master Trainers, so 6 in total (??) and how I got "a handful and change" of Master Trainers Here's the qualification page on how to be certified as a FE trainer: http://www.flexeffect.com/certification.htm
Anyhow, I apologize for side-tracking this conversation...and now back to Ageless  |
_________________
34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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