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Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:39 pm  |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
WOW! I just feel so sad seeing how my 2 cents always brings the "heat seeking missiles" raining down on me..  It's really quite hilarious, when you consider that "I" actually have everyone's best interest at heart, and not a damn thing to gain.
@Keliu, when/if you actually get and use the "new" anti-aging/wrinkle model, I'll be glad to hear your 2 cents on the "heat" factor. Until then, your comments are just attacking those of us who actually are experiencing the heat, and on top of that, you are totally disrespecting our input, and insinuating that we are imagining it all...(I wouldn't have thought that you would be so sucked in by what Steve or any other manufacturer has to say, so I can only assume that that takes priority for you over *actual* experiences???) Why do you feel it necessary to keep attacking our actual experiences? I just don't get that. Another thing is this; you have accused me in the past of being totally in support of LS products, and actually stated that I would "fight with people who didn't agree with me" on how wonderful the product was...Hell, you even suspected that I "worked" for the company a couple of years ago.. So I just have to assume that it is me personally that you don't like, and you have absolutely no respect for my opinions, based on my 3 1/2 years of using this product...Quite simply; I'm damned if I do, or damned if I don't in your humble opinion.. That's sad Keliu.. And it's so obvious that for anybody reading this thread that no matter what I say, you chime in with some sort of negative post. I thought we were all here to help each other figure it all out, but the gang up mentality, and side taking crap seems to be what it's really all about lately..  (Don't fret though, because your "thank you" ♥ committee has your back..  )
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Exactly what "heat seeking missiles" have I rained down on you? In my previous response I gave you a compliment on your appearance.
No I don't own the new model, but I do own the model that came after the original, which I believe has exactly the same configuration of recessed lights so, therefore, should have the same heat problem.
I have been concerned about all the claims of excessive heat from the start of this discussion. I have not been negative. I have asked those of you with both new and old models to try to measure the heat to try to get to the bottom of the situation. I have suggested that people contact Steve about it and ask for an explanation.
I have NEVER, NEVER, EVER accused you of working for, or benefiting from sales of the Lightstim.
I am not sucked in by what Steve, or anyone else has to say. I am trying to point out that in the US electrical devices are required to be manufactured to a certain standard. If they are not, then the company is responsible. If the devices are faulty then there should be a recall of all that have been sold. At this point, there has been no actual proof that the devices are over-heating.
In regard to the trial of the serum. I must have missed your review. All I can remember is you stating that you had contacted the formulating chemist because you were worried about it containing occlusive ingredients. Then you suggested that it could be improved upon by adding stuff to it.
I have never bullied anyone - I have NEVER been rude.
Sadly, it is now completely impossible to have a balanced discussion on anything on this Forum. If you make a comment that does not align itself with the general flow - you just get bad mouthed and the accusations start to fly. I always try to keep my comments balanced and unemotional. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:50 pm |
| Just to note: No electrical device should get hotter and hotter - if it did, it would eventually explode. The Lightstim is supposed to have a maximum temperature (which was posted somewhere) - it should remain at that temperature. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:17 pm |
The only response to that tirade that I will address is:
A) I do not see Keliu bullying anybody, anywhere, ever on this forum, I thank her and whomsoever I choose based on the information they provide or the amusement they add to a thread period.
B) I am not flip flopping, but you are entitled to believe as you wish. 
C) If and when I choose to purchase the LED I know exactly where and who to look to for assistance. I resent being spoken to like a child. I am a month from 57 a very few (4) years younger than both yourself and Keliu, the 2 of you have birthdays in January and celebrated 61 mine will be coming up in February.
D) I don't agree with your definition of what's occlusive to light so be it, adults should be able to agree to disagree it's not personal unless of course you choose to make it such. |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:50 pm |
I have heard back from Steve - he asked for my phone number and is going to call me about my experience with the new Lightstim.
Ladies, all I can say, is that I feel there is a definite bias against those of us experiencing a hotter Lightstim. It feels rather like bullying to me.
My skin has been through a lot over the years - lots of strong treatments, etc. I am a European trained esthetician and I KNOW when my skin feels dehydrated. I have seen it first hand on lots of skin types and I am intimately familiar with my own.
So, if this device seems hot, it is freaking hot. For me, that's the end of story. It bares scrutiny and thankfully, Steve seems willing to get to the bottom of it.
Hopefully I'll get more answers after I speak with him...
In the meantime, thank you Kassy and all who have the courage to share their personal experience. |
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43, CPs, glycolic 15%, Safetox, Lyapko roller (love), HF, Love my Barre workouts and all things skincare! |
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Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:00 pm |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
| @Keliu ... (I wouldn't have thought that you would be so sucked in by what Steve or any other manufacturer has to say, so I can only assume that that takes priority for you over *actual* experiences???). |
Although not addressed to me, I would like to comment on the above (edited) comment. I am copying this information from page 92 of this thread. I have edited Toby's post to reduce irrelevant and marketing information:
| Toby wrote: |
I shot an email to Steve at Lightstim about some of the concerns and this is his response.
| Quote: |
As to the warmth of the new LightStim for Wrinkles: We use a very sophisticated device for measuring the temperature of our Lights and of the skin after different treatment times. The new LightStim for Wrinkles has the exact same LED's and all electronic parts as the AALS. The only difference is the shape of the plastic handle. It was designed to be more ergonomic for using on oneself, as opposed to the shape of the AALS which was designed more for a professional to use on their clients.
We lowered the plastic lip around the LEDs on the LightStim for Wrinkles just a hair. We did this for 2 reasons:
1) so that less light "leaked" out the sides. 2) With the exception of a very small percentage of people who have very sensitive skin, our surveys of existing customers continually show they love the warmth of the light and find themselves pushing it harder against the skin to make it warmer.
That said, the LightStim for Wrinkles will only heat the skin to one degree higher than the AALS in a 3-5 minute application. And that is ONLY if you press it into the skin. If you follow the instructions, which say to hold it GENTLY touching the skin (gently meaning: just barely touching, or touching but not pressing into the skin), then there will be ZERO increase in skin temperature. So the LightStim for Wrinkles gives you a choice of being able to have a warmer application if you press it into the skin, or the same temperature if you just gentle touch the skin.
Additionally, as measured by our equipment in numerous cases, if the LightStim for Wrinkles is held TIGHTLY against the skin for 10+ minutes (not the recommended 3 minutes), the temperature of the skin will only rise to 102 degrees. This is a very minimal temperature and is even 2 degrees less than the MINIMUM temperature that the FDA requires to treat pain. The FDA has set safety standards of heating the skin to a temperature of 104 to 108 degrees in order to treat the human body for pain (as does our Therapy Light which is FDA cleared for pain and at this time can only be purchased by calling LightStim directly).
Steve
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The FDA has set very clear specifications as to how hot any consumer device can raise the temperature of the skin. Manufacturers are required to accurately test their devices prior to FDA clearance. If Steve is BS-ing EDS members, then he is also doing the same to the FDA; this would be disastrous to his company and his personal/financial well-being if/when it was discovered. For that reason, I think it is reasonable to assume Steve has been honest in his statements when he discusses the heat issue of the new Wrinkle LED device. The new device is warmer; one degree (Celsius?) but it is still within the safety levels set by the FDA for consumer devices according to pre-market testing. Some users may be sensitive enough to notice this difference but it can be overcome by not pressing the device into the skin.
Personally what I find most disturbing is the lack of trust and the use of the phrase "so sucked in by what Steve or any other manufacturer has to say" coming from someone who has been a happy customer of Steve's LED devices. It sounds like paranoia to me. After all, we do have to trust people sometimes otherwise we go through life being suspicious of everyone which is not mentally healthy. BTW, have you returned the loaner/tester yet? If not, why not? |
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Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:13 pm |
"For that reason, I think it is reasonable to assume Steve has been honest in his statements when he discusses the heat issue of the new Wrinkle LED device"
No one implied Steve has been anything other than truthful about the specifications for the new LS.
"Some users may be sensitive enough to notice this difference but it can be overcome by not pressing the device into the skin"
And some users might not be sensitive at all and are NOT pressing the device into the skin, but still find the new device is running very hot.
I am astounded that those of us who are having a problem are still having to defend, clarify and reiterate our statements.
"BTW, have you returned the loaner/tester yet? If not, why not?"
I have no knowledge of the past history here, but how is that any of your business or concern? |
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Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:16 pm |
Luminosity,
I'm glad you're going to discuss this with Steve and thank you giving us an update.
Kassy,
Sorry your skin has taken a turn for the worse. What are you going to do in terms of the LS going forward? |
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Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:20 pm |
I don't need to look at any links to be educated about the manufacturing capabilites and flaws in China as I have been doing business there for 20 years. Your original statement about this subject speaks volumes about you and no amount of bback peddling will change that. |
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Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:23 pm |
| Where is the difficulty in contacting the place of purchase for either a refund or exchange as suggested earlier, if it's running too hot possibly those having problems received defective units? It happens with all products, I don't doubt what anyone is saying I just believe they may need to be replaced. If a new unit or the older model is still too hot for your skin then like JR maybe it's just not a product for you? |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:32 pm |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
| Where is the difficulty in contacting the place of purchase for either a refund or exchange as suggested earlier, if it's running too hot possibly those having problems received defective units? It happens with all products, I don't doubt what anyone is saying I just believe they may need to be replaced. If a new unit or the older model is still too hot for your skin then like JR maybe it's just not a product for you? |
There is no difficulty. this is a venue where we discuss this device and after posting my experience last night I was told by Keliu:
"Sorry, but I can't see this happening at all. I think the question of the heat is totally subjective."
the conversation took off from there and people are still trying to tell us that we have sensitive skin or are pressing the device too firmly into our skin and that's why we "think" the device is running too hot.
Hope that helpls bring you up to date:) |
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Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:44 pm |
I am up to date I read this last night as well and it's plain that you said it WAS running too hot, but after a time of not using the unit it now does not run too hot?
| Keliu wrote: |
| fmvalentina wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
| fmvalentina wrote: |
I have both the original and the QVC model and had posted that the QVC device ran much much hotter than the original. I had stopped using it during the holidays and resumed it again and noticed that it's not getting as hot as it did originally.
I think that's a good thing, but I wonder why it changed. I didn't travel with it or move the LS, curious why the heat output changed. |
Sorry, but I can't see this happening at all. I think the question of the heat is totally subjective. |
Yes, I'm delusional. Give me a break! Heat can be measured and felt it's not subjective like someone's opinon. |
Yes, heat can be measured if you have the correct equipment. So if you believe that the heat of your device has changed you should send it back to Lightstim and have it checked out. No device should have a fluctuating output.
As for the subjectivity on the question of heat output of the new device. Steve from Lightstim has assured everyone that both devices are exactly the same technically, so therefore, they are giving out the same amount of heat.
ETA: By the way, your opinion is subjective because it hasn't been verified by fact. |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:49 pm |
that would be CORRECT, Dark Moon. I thought it was odd that after not using it for 2 weeks or so that it didn't run as hot as it did since I received it. I had posted a long time ago about the newer device running hotter than the original and looked at my post last night as an update.
Is there a problem with my saying that? I thought the intention of this forum and thread was to share experiences, that's what I was doing. |
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Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:09 pm |
| fmvalentina wrote: |
that would be CORRECT, Dark Moon. I thought it was odd that after not using it for 2 weeks or so that it didn't run as hot as it did since I received it. I had posted a long time ago about the newer device running hotter than the original and looked at my post last night as an update.
Is there a problem with my saying that? I thought the intention of this forum and thread was to share experiences, that's what I was doing. |
Yes,it is why we are here and NO problem about your posting that at all. We are here to share, not to fight. My point is if I received a product that behaved as oddly as yours has I would return it and get a replacement. That is what I would choose to do. You will of course make your own choice. |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:14 pm |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
| fmvalentina wrote: |
that would be CORRECT, Dark Moon. I thought it was odd that after not using it for 2 weeks or so that it didn't run as hot as it did since I received it. I had posted a long time ago about the newer device running hotter than the original and looked at my post last night as an update.
Is there a problem with my saying that? I thought the intention of this forum and thread was to share experiences, that's what I was doing. |
Yes,it is why we are here and NO problem about your posting that at all. We are here to share, not to fight. My point is if I received a product that behaved as oddly as yours has I would return it and get a replacement. That is what I would choose to do. You will of course make your own choice. |
Because of QVC's holiday return policy, I have until 1/30 to return this to QVC, thats what I'm going to do. This was a 2nd unit for me as I have the original. I will see how things play out with the newer unit and decide if I want to purchase another of the QVC devices or the original model. At this point I don't remember if LS is still going to stock the original units. |
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Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:17 pm |
| brierrose wrote: |
For those of you that have the original I have a couple of questions.
1) Does your AALS heat up more the longer you use it or stay at an even temp.?
2) Did you experience an adjustment period for awhile at the start such as things looking worse before better? TIA
I plan on contacting Steve so that he's aware. |
Hi brierrose, shall answer simple and straight:
1) My AALS heats up in the first few minutes and then keeps at an even temperature. I usually actually press it against the skin as the warmth is no problem.
2) No adjustment period in things looking worse except what I have found is that the skin seems thicker but as I've mentioned here before I find the skin to be dry, fewer lines but the ones existing deeper looking due to thicker but dry skin.. I've changed my protocol using a moisturizer before.. just started recently so can not say. I have always used ELS serum-just finishing it! after treatment, but skin still dehydrated looking. Hope to get on better with applying moisturizer before treatment! |
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Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:35 pm |
fmvalentina,
I understand returning has a time limit and it can be a PIA!
I do recall it was posted somewhere that Steve had said the original model was still being stocked and that he would happily swap one for the new model. I can not recall if that applies to those purchased only from him or any? That you would have to find that post or contact Steve. |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:43 pm |
I feel very fortunate to have a normal LightStim. It's feels mildly warm, even when pressing it against my skin.
I hope that those that have a defective device will get it replaced with one that works fine like mine. That's what I would have done right away.
I do think that people should overlook any slights on these forums. It just leads to strife. |
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Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:03 am |
| fmvalentina wrote: |
I don't need to look at any links to be educated about the manufacturing capabilites and flaws in China as I have been doing business there for 20 years. Your original statement about this subject speaks volumes about you and no amount of bback peddling will change that. |
This was my original statement:
| Quote: |
| If the Lightstim was manufactured in China, then the situation could well be different. |
I see no reason to back peddle given the fact that the Chinese have very few safety regulations regarding the manufacture of their goods. If you find this statement in any way anti-Chinese, then that is your interpretation. I am simply stating a fact.
For your information - my husband is half Chinese, I speak, read and write Chinese (very badly), I have lived and attended university in China, I have made many business trips to China and I have a Degree from the University of Queensland in Chinese and a Major in Asian Studies.
I can tell you that my foot is well and truly out of my mouth when I say that, both world- wide and in China itself, there has been allot of concern about the safety of goods manufactured in China.
BTW, my screen name is actually my Chinese name - it means a jade like stone ke and a willow tree liu. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:33 am |
| fmvalentina wrote: |
"For that reason, I think it is reasonable to assume Steve has been honest in his statements when he discusses the heat issue of the new Wrinkle LED device"
No one implied Steve has been anything other than truthful about the specifications for the new LS. |
I believe that this is the crux of the matter. If the specifications are the same, and both the new and old lights are functioning within a degree of each other - then it is impossible for the new light to be giving out excessive heat and causing burning. This has been my simple point from the outset.
Kassy has said, I wouldn't have thought that you would be so sucked in by what Steve or any other manufacturer has to say, so I can only assume that that takes priority for you over *actual* experiences??? Which implies to me that she herself does not believe in what Steve says.
I have taken Steve's words at face value. If there is some problem with the manufacturing of the light and some are over-heating and causing burns - this would be a very serious situation for the company and leave it open to litigation.
All along I have tried to calm the fears of those worried that their light was too hot. I have explained that LEDs are used in humidicribs, I have related that I have fallen asleep with mine on my face for hours. I have always told those who think their light is defective to inform the company - in doing so, I have never "attacked" anyone. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:16 am |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
| So I just have to assume that it is me personally that you don't like, and you have absolutely no respect for my opinions,... |
I just have to reply to this comment. My opinions are my opinions, and I express them wherever I see fit. My stance on a topic has nothing to do with whether I like someone or not. I have lived in marital "bliss" with someone for 30 years - and we have never yet managed to find one topic on which we agree. I have said this before, and I'll say it again - you take everything so personally. If someone does not agree with you, you become offended. I think all of this is unnecessary. We can all agree to disagree without any nastiness. Yes, I do disagree with you over the "occlusiveness" of serums to light - because I can find no scientific evidence to back your theory and it makes absolutely no sense to me. However, I have agreed with you on other threads, such as the Ageless Secret Gold and have given you a 'thank you' for your comments.
As for the excessive heat of the new Lightstim - I neither disagree or agree - how can anyone form an opinion on something that is yet to be proven.
As long as I have all of my faculties (and that might not be for too much longer), I will continue to voice my opinion on topics. And I will not be altering my opinion in order to make friends and placate people - it will simply be my opinion, it will be because that's what I believe. It will be stated honestly and with no bias. Surely, that's all anyone can hope to do? |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:03 am |
| Keliu wrote: |
| fmvalentina wrote: |
I don't need to look at any links to be educated about the manufacturing capabilites and flaws in China as I have been doing business there for 20 years. Your original statement about this subject speaks volumes about you and no amount of bback peddling will change that. |
This was my original statement:
| Quote: |
| If the Lightstim was manufactured in China, then the situation could well be different. |
I see no reason to back peddle given the fact that the Chinese have very few safety regulations regarding the manufacture of their goods. If you find this statement in any way anti-Chinese, then that is your interpretation. I am simply stating a fact.
For your information - my husband is half Chinese, I speak, read and write Chinese (very badly), I have lived and attended university in China, I have made many business trips to China and I have a Degree from the University of Queensland in Chinese and a Major in Asian Studies.
I can tell you that my foot is well and truly out of my mouth when I say that, both world- wide and in China itself, there has been allot of concern about the safety of goods manufactured in China.
BTW, my screen name is actually my Chinese name - it means a jade like stone ke and a willow tree liu. |
Very special indeed!
:::sighs:::
::::bangs head::::
You still don't see how your original statement about China is wrong and you never will. I don't care if you were raised in China and never left your country, your original statement shows just what is wrong and how you have derailed this conversation. |
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Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:19 am |
| Keliu wrote: |
| "I believe that this is the crux of the matter. If the specifications are the same, and both the new and old lights are functioning within a degree of each other - then it is impossible for the new light to be giving out excessive heat and causing burning. This has been my simple point from the outset." |
This is what is wrong!!!! you don't have the device in your hand that is in my home or the others who have complained. it is not impossible because it is happening. what the heck is the matter with you?
You don't know what you're talking about, period.
You are derailing what should be a lovely exchange of experiences and feedback from people who own the device with your own crazy ideas about what is IMPOSSIBLE, UNPROVEN and in your opinion NOT HAPPENING. WHY can't you leave us alone and stop fighting us on this issue.
For goodness sake, stop already!!!
| Keliu wrote: |
| All along I have tried to calm the fears of those worried that their light was too hot. I have explained that LEDs are used in humidicribs, I have related that I have fallen asleep with mine on my face for hours. I have always told those who think their light is defective to inform the company - in doing so, I have never "attacked" anyone" |
You have not calmed anyone's fears because you don't have our devices, so the time has come for you to stop, just stop!!! You are making things worse. Bow out and stop this ridiculous arguing with us. Steve is interested in what is happening, leave it in his hands and the ones who are having the problems. I speak for myself here, but at this point I'm not interested in how you don't believe us, can prove us wrong, find it impossible to be happening, etc. I don't care one iota about what you have to say on this issue because you have absolutely no respect for the people experiencing a problem and are only interested in telling us we're wrong, it can't be happening and its impossible.
LET IT GO and move on!!! |
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Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:27 am |
[quote="fmvalentina"]
| Keliu wrote: |
| fmvalentina wrote: |
I don't need to look at any links to be educated about the manufacturing capabilites and flaws in China as I have been doing business there for 20 years. Your original statement about this subject speaks volumes about you and no amount of bback peddling will change that. |
This was my original statement:
| Quote: |
| If the Lightstim was manufactured in China, then the situation could well be different. |
I see no reason to back peddle given the fact that the Chinese have very few safety regulations regarding the manufacture of their goods. If you find this statement in any way anti-Chinese, then that is your interpretation. I am simply stating a fact.
For your information - my husband is half Chinese, I speak, read and write Chinese (very badly), I have lived and attended university in China, I have made many business trips to China and I have a Degree from the University of Queensland in Chinese and a Major in Asian Studies.
I can tell you that my foot is well and truly out of my mouth when I say that, both world- wide and in China itself, there has been allot of concern about the safety of goods manufactured in China.
BTW, my screen name is actually my Chinese name - it means a jade like stone ke and a willow tree liu. |
Very special indeed!
:::sighs:::
::::bangs head::::
"the Chinese have very few safety regulations regarding the manufacture of their goods"
Again, you have no idea what you're talking about, you're in way over your head. You have no idea about the scope of products produced in China that are much more dangerous and complicated than an LED device and are manufactured to exacting standards. You don't know what you're talking about when you use one broad stroke to color an entire country's manufacturing capabilities with your statements. You and your husband's lineage and screen names don't mean a thing and are nothing but red herrings you've thrown into this already ridiculous conversation.
You still don't see how your original statement about China is wrong and you never will. I don't care if you were raised in China and never left your country, your original statement shows just what is wrong and how you have derailed this conversation. Please stop! I know you want to and have to be right, but you aren't and you won't be, so just stop. |
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Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:17 am |
I had the original AALS from 2 years ago, and bought a new one from QVC hoping to save treatment time. I used in on one side of the face and the old AALS was used on the other. One was noticeably hotter then the other, and after the treatment was done - the side of the face where the QVC one was used had very vivid red rings on it, that luckily dissipated within a few hours. Since they were seen by my husband, and not just by me - to me it was objective enough to return QVC model ASAP.
I have not posted any negative reviews, just returned it. Then I bought another old AALS from Steve (which works exactly like my old one), and the also a Therapy Light, which works for muscle/mild joint problems.
So to summarize:
1). the problem is definitely there (and I will believe my own eyes over anyone's educated or uneducated opinion)
2). presence or lack of reviews are rather meaningless nowadays imho (even though I do look at them I regret too many things I had bought based on them and no longer value them as high as before)
3). FDA means very little in this case(sometimes just UL compliance, it is too complicated for this discussion, but knowing from my Bio_Medical engineer husband who deals with them frequently in the med. devices area)
I am planning to get another AALS for my mom (she works and lacks the time to do treatments with just one). I also found the timer that Toby recommended (thanks!!!) invaluable to make the treatment go smoother.
HTH |
_________________
Early 50s, Skin: combin.,semi-sensitive, fair with occasional breakouts, some old acne scars, freckles, under-eye wrinkles; Redhead with hazel eyes |
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Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:22 am |
| sigma wrote: |
I also found the timer that Toby recommended (thanks!!!) invaluable to make the treatment go smoother.
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Sigma or Toby, can you share about the timer. I remember reading it, but I can't remember where and I would like to purchase the timer! |
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