Micro-current devices vs manual facial exercises...
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free skin care · Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:31 pm

I saw KayS picture and it is beautiful. Sorry Kay, I had to tell everyone. No WAY this woman looks 60 or even close and her jawline is gorgeous.
I am a faithful facial exerciser and she makes me want a STOP and a tv. Very Happy

free skin care · Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:01 am

Although I agree with Cm here, I think its worth mentioning that there have been several famous bodybuilders who have used such devices in conjunction with resistance training (and won their competitions) and then been accused of cheating because they used such devices - so I don’t think its wise to rule it out entirely. I think there probably is a very high number of people using them behind the scenes who won’t confess to using them.

Although I can see how the EMS devices can cause temporary concentric contractions (which is a temporary shortening of the muscle), because they don’t stretch the muscle or engage it in its full range of motion, all that you will get is a temporary effect in my mind (other than if your using them as a massage device where they will increase the circulation and nutrients to areas). You won’t find it mentioned in bodybuilders magazines because more often than not bodybuilders magazines are created and made by supplement companies which is why you often get 100 adverts for supplements in them.

I don’t know if anyone can remember but Jane Fonda originally was an advocate of using EMS devices on the face!

Basically I can see how they are appealing to people, because they can be done while watching the telly etc, and don't require much focus or effort (other than placing) but I think its really best to get the best of both worlds - using EMS and manual facial exercises to really ensure your helping your face be its best!

Sean

cm5597 wrote:

Keliu wrote:

Well I'm hoping it does increase the size of the muscle because I'm trying to build up my cheeks. If you exercise your arm muscles, don't you increase your strength and the size of the muscles as well? I can't see why the cheeks wouldn't be any different.

So what I do know is if facial muscles are similar to body muscles, then you're only going to get an increase in muscle tone, but not an increase in muscle size. This is why you will find exactly ZERO bodybuilders use electro-current devices. I've never ever even once seen them mentioned in bodybuilding magazines over the years, and a lot of the info in those magazines is cutting-edge...They all lift heavy weights with low reps instead as that has been what has proven to increase the size of muscles the most.

Also, I just Wikipedia'ed it, and the Wikipedia article says "The effectiveness of the devices for sport training has been debated. A niche of coaches regularly use professional EMS devices as integral part of the training of their athletes, some of these are high profile coaches who used the technique to supplement the training of Olympic-level athletes.[28]" I think that obviously if electrical muscle stimulation was just as or more effective than conventional weight training, most Olympic and other serious athletes would be using it, but instead, most do not.

What these devices do is stimulate the muscle to contract, but they don't really provide any resistance, to my knowledge...This isn't to say the devices aren't worthwhile, but to indicate which particular goals they can help you achieve and which they cannot. These particular devices, when effective and used properly, should be good for increasing muscle tone and improving facial sag...so, for example, while they could make your cheeks look better by raising them back where they belong, they are unlikely to significantly increase the size of your cheeks...I hope that distinction is clear.

HTH Smile

free skin care · Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:45 am

Just a heads up because of the economy I am selling my STOP which I think is awesome. If interested you cam pm me.

free skin care · Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:49 am

SeanySeanUK wrote:

I think its worth mentioning that there have been several famous bodybuilders who have used such devices in conjunction with resistance training (and won their competitions) and then been accused of cheating because they used such devices - so I don’t think its wise to rule it out entirely. I think there probably is a very high number of people using them behind the scenes who won’t confess to using them.

Hey Sean!

Oh, sorry I wasn't precise enough, but I've never heard of bodybuilders using electric muscle stimulation (EMS) to **increase muscle size**, but I have heard of a small handful that used EMS for either rehabilitation, to boost muscle recovery, or to cut fat faster pre-competition, but that's totally different from using EMS regularly to build muscle size.

I Googled EMS and bodybuilding, and the only references I found were Lee Haney reportedly using EMS, but only pre-competition as a way to speed muscle recovery after workouts, and Ronnie Coleman uses it to increase energy and stamina, but neither of use it to build muscle size. Who are the other serious bodybuilders you've heard of who have used it? Did they just use it pre-competition, perhaps to boost muscle recovery or to cut fat faster? Or, were they actually trying to build muscle? I admit that I'm no longer seriously in bodybuilding, but I'm skeptical that there really are people seriously using EMS to build muscle size. Just curious Smile

free skin care · Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:15 am

LOL don’t worry CM, but I figure its worth sharing knowledge. Also I understand that there is currently a study being undertaken in Sweden which has a 7 year span, and is part way through already.

Like you I don’t see how it can increase muscle size - as the full range of motion isn’t there, and its just causing a temporary concentric contraction, but I do remember that it was a team of people who two different countries competing which seemed to add further to the argument and it got rather political in names like Cheaters etc being used left right and centre!

Then of course there were arguments that EMS was not compatible with bodybuilding, because bodybuilding, as you say above was hard work, and people felt that EMS was the lazy way out. I can kind of see where they are coming from on that one - but still not so sure its wise to write it off completely.

Many people who use the EMS devices on their face report that they do get muscle build from it - and I figure thats worth noting.

Sean

cm5597 wrote:

Hey Sean!

Oh, sorry I wasn't precise enough, but I've never heard of bodybuilders using electric muscle stimulation (EMS) to **increase muscle size**, but I have heard of a small handful that used EMS for either rehabilitation, to boost muscle recovery, or to cut fat faster pre-competition, but that's totally different from using EMS regularly to build muscle size.

I Googled EMS and bodybuilding, and the only references I found were Lee Haney reportedly using EMS, but only pre-competition as a way to speed muscle recovery after workouts, and Ronnie Coleman uses it to increase energy and stamina, but neither of use it to build muscle size. Who are the other serious bodybuilders you've heard of who have used it? Did they just use it pre-competition, perhaps to boost muscle recovery or to cut fat faster? Or, were they actually trying to build muscle? I admit that I'm no longer seriously in bodybuilding, but I'm skeptical that there really are people seriously using EMS to build muscle size. Just curious Smile

free skin care · Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:16 pm

As a user of both facial exercises and nothing to offer but my experience....nothing scientific.....but I like both. The facial exercises produce quicker results and more build, while the Tua Viso is more toning for me than building. And hey there are places where I just need toning and then there are places I want build...so for me both have their place. I also think the muscles and skin respond to not having the same approach all the time. I will say there are several points that can be reached with the Tua Viso that I can't do with facial exercises. And also we can't forget the Safetox for the forehead wrinkles and 11s......folks I had zero results with facial exercises there but when I used the Safetox it immediately transformed my forehead wrinkles that had been there since childhood. Again, just my experience but both have made me a happy camper!!! Laughing

free skin care · Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:50 pm

Toby - thanks for coming on board here. Now I want Safetox and a tv.... Very Happy

Can I ask where does the tv act on your face in ways facial exercises does not? And where does the STOP come into play?

free skin care · Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:54 am

That’s a perfect example Toby, and your not the only one who has reported that, as I have had many clients doing both TV and manual exercises.

I’m interested in learning more about the points you can’t get with facial exercises, as I have been playing about with one for my clients that reaches the area behind the ears on the TV - but I haven’t come across any others (and I’m going to share them shortly).

Re Safetox, the only thing that makes me feel uneasy about that device is the idea of paralyzing muscles. Toby are you still able to move your brows/forehead or do you feel that the device has inhibited this?

Sean

Toby wrote:

As a user of both facial exercises and nothing to offer but my experience....nothing scientific.....but I like both. The facial exercises produce quicker results and more build, while the Tua Viso is more toning for me than building. And hey there are places where I just need toning and then there are places I want build...so for me both have their place. I also think the muscles and skin respond to not having the same approach all the time. I will say there are several points that can be reached with the Tua Viso that I can't do with facial exercises. And also we can't forget the Safetox for the forehead wrinkles and 11s......folks I had zero results with facial exercises there but when I used the Safetox it immediately transformed my forehead wrinkles that had been there since childhood. Again, just my experience but both have made me a happy camper!!! Laughing

free skin care · Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:06 am

Hi everyone,

I just wanted to chime in with regard to the safetox. It seems most people have very positive results from it, but I look awful from using it. My brow has dropped and my 11's look worse. My eyes are also puffy and look quite red. It definitely does something, but unfortunately on me, it has made things worse. I would rather it have done nothing,

Jackie x

free skin care · Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:28 am

SeanySeanUK wrote:

.. that reaches the area behind the ears on the TV - but I haven’t come across any others (and I’m going to share them shortly).

I cannot get the TV to twitch my muscles behind my ears and yet.... I can pull my ears back and forth quite well. Odd.

free skin care · Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:39 am

Its worth playing about with the positioning hold for that one, as I know thats a favourite everyone seems to struggle with. Although if your able to move your ears back and fourth quite well, then there are other ways of working that muscle! Laughing

This is Miranda wrote:

SeanySeanUK wrote:

.. that reaches the area behind the ears on the TV - but I haven’t come across any others (and I’m going to share them shortly).

I cannot get the TV to twitch my muscles behind my ears and yet.... I can pull my ears back and forth quite well. Odd.

free skin care · Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:14 am

So, looking at the 'lengthening/stretching' concern regarding the EMS machines and successful hpertrophy - I was thinking about the isometric approach (mainly met it in body toning capacity) and wondering if this has any application to the face for us. Would this be met using the EMSs, and could we then supplement with stretching exercise for the face? (utilising facial yogic stretches, for example). That would give us 'contraction' and 'lengthening' (possibly). Am I on a reasonable line of inquiry here, or has this already been covered?

Here is a link to an explanation of isometric exercise in case anyone needs refreshing on it:

http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/isometric-exercises.html

Yes, I like the Tina Richards approach as well - even though I don't care for the hands-on of the TV.

Sean, this a bit unfair, I know - but if I said to you 'here is an open cheque, go get the EMS device that most appeals to you' - do you know which one you might go for at this stage? Please state reasons... Very Happy

free skin care · Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:29 am

Well I think that for EMS to be really successful, you would need to have the muscles stretch, before it would contract in order to build tone. So with manual exercises you can do this easily - look at FlexEffect for example, we often stretch the muscles and then lock on (use resistance) and then contract the muscle against the resistance, so that the muscle moves through its full range of motion. You can’t really achieve that with EMS devices that I’m aware of yet.

So I’m not sure that you could do facial yoga stretches and then do EMS and reap the same benefits as compared with doing a manual facial exercise in which you would do both positions and the range of motion associated with it.

It’s a good line of thinking, but as you can see I’m not sure its physically possible. The EMS cause the muscles to concentrically contract (i.e. shorten) so I suppose if you were to stretch the muscle and then apply the EMS device you might have some luck but this might also be very painful.

Re isometrics, they do work well on the body and face, but really they are only for toning the muscle not so much building it and engaging all muscle fibres.

As for which device I would go for, I have to say hands on heart I honestly wouldn’t go for one as I think the benefits of the manual facial exercises I have seen far outweight them, but the one that I did try at the workshop of Tina’s was the Tua Viso and I must admit I was impressed with that one, but haven’t used it regularly. I like Photoqueens device also but I haven’t used that either. I am not convinced in their ability to build muscle and engage all fibres, although I can appreciate others are using them with great results!

semayden wrote:

So, looking at the 'lengthening/stretching' concern regarding the EMS machines and successful hpertrophy - I was thinking about the isometric approach (mainly met it in body toning capacity) and wondering if this has any application to the face for us. Would this be met using the EMSs, and could we then supplement with stretching exercise for the face? (utilising facial yogic stretches, for example). That would give us 'contraction' and 'lengthening' (possibly). Am I on a reasonable line of inquiry here, or has this already been covered?

Here is a link to an explanation of isometric exercise in case anyone needs refreshing on it:

http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/isometric-exercises.html

Yes, I like the Tina Richards approach as well - even though I don't care for the hands-on of the TV.

Sean, this a bit unfair, I know - but if I said to you 'here is an open cheque, go get the EMS device that most appeals to you' - do you know which one you might go for at this stage? Please state reasons... Very Happy

free skin care · Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:39 am

SeanySeanUK wrote:

That’s a perfect example Toby, and your not the only one who has reported that, as I have had many clients doing both TV and manual exercises.

I’m interested in learning more about the points you can’t get with facial exercises, as I have been playing about with one for my clients that reaches the area behind the ears on the TV - but I haven’t come across any others (and I’m going to share them shortly).

Re Safetox, the only thing that makes me feel uneasy about that device is the idea of paralyzing muscles. Toby are you still able to move your brows/forehead or do you feel that the device has inhibited this?

Sean

Toby wrote:

As a user of both facial exercises and nothing to offer but my experience....nothing scientific.....but I like both. The facial exercises produce quicker results and more build, while the Tua Viso is more toning for me than building. And hey there are places where I just need toning and then there are places I want build...so for me both have their place. I also think the muscles and skin respond to not having the same approach all the time. I will say there are several points that can be reached with the Tua Viso that I can't do with facial exercises. And also we can't forget the Safetox for the forehead wrinkles and 11s......folks I had zero results with facial exercises there but when I used the Safetox it immediately transformed my forehead wrinkles that had been there since childhood. Again, just my experience but both have made me a happy camper!!! Laughing

Okay the areas that the Tua Viso can reach that are unique is behind the ear and the neck. The behind the ear spot I could never get right until I got the extra DVD and then seeing the demonstration helped me to fine tune that point as well as others. I love how it handles the neck in a way that is different from exercises. My neck is naturally very firm but I still use it there because it feels neat Wink

Now for the paralyzing of the forehead muscles with the Safetox...the word paralyzing is rather strong wording here because it doesn't actually do that. It really just helps to flatten the muscle and encourage it to stay that way. I have no limited movement of the forhead but the wrinkles dont form as I raise my brow and of course they don't appear when at rest either.It is truly an amazing device and I had results from the first use. I do a lot of public speaking and use facial expressions a lot to make points so I might be more animated than most people in using the face. But for me it has nearly removed the 11s and taken the frown lines almost completely away. It is not botox(I have never tried botox) but the effects for me are 100% to my satisfaction. Now as with anything else you have to keep it up to maintain but isn't that the case with most treatments?? Wink

I also notice it opens the eye area and front of the face in a youthful way...can't explain that totally but check their website for details about areas it affects.

free skin care · Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:21 pm

Cool! Thanks, Sean Smile

I've only followed the American bodybuilding scene, so I was unaware that a few famous Russian, Japanese, and Swedish bodybuilders use EMS. I still suspect they are just are using it for muscle toning and recovery, not muscle building. This is not to say EMS is good or bad, but rather to just be as correct as possible as what works specifically for what, so that people can get the best results Very Happy

I don't have a particular angle on EMS, as I've never tried it, but I know that different people have different needs as regards muscle toning, muscle isolation, and muscle building, so I just felt strongly that we should all contribute whatever pieces of information that we have to the discussion, so that people can have as much information from a variety of sources as possible. Additionally, most usefully, hopefully more people who have actually had experience with both can chime in! Smile

As you and Toby have so well said, EMS may work better for some people and/or for certain applications, whereas facial exercises of varying types may work better for other things. Best of luck to all Smile

free skin care · Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:26 pm

Toby--A curiosity question for you, since you have used FlexEffect, Ageless, and Tuo Viso. Since cheeks are such a big issue for so many people, of the six cheek muscles, are there any cheek muscles that you felt EMS targets better than resistance facial exercises? And how about the jawline? Just curious and fascinated by it all. Thanks so much! Smile

free skin care · Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:01 pm

CM,
I think to answer your question approriately you must know a little about my face shape, age, and problem areas as well as skin type. I am 54,thicker skin prone to sag(not to wrinkling). My face shape is full cheeks all my life and started slight sag around 48. Used several type of EMS devices on and off during my forties and wasn't sure about trying facial exercises. At 52 started facial exercises and massage and had immediate improvement. Added Tua Viso and Safetox a year later. I have always had a firm neck and jaw, my problem areas were slight jowls,and n/l fold sag. The facial exercises worked FAR better on the cheeks and lift of upper eye lids as well as jowling area than EMS devices. Build without question for me comes with facial exercises. For the forehead now I only using Safetox and use the Tua for areas of toning. I like to keep my workout varied so I don't get bored and my skin seems to respond better that way. As far as the EMS the Tua Viso is more appealing to me because it contracts the muscles and holds the contraction for 4-5 sec. and it is strong.

free skin care · Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:26 pm

Don't mean to hijack this thread, but wondering if anyone has a Tua Viso they want to sell or trade for a DPL?? PM me!

free skin care · Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:51 pm

Toby, thanks so much for sharing! It's very interesting to hear about all your results experimenting with different things. This is super valuable Smile

Hugs

free skin care · Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:55 pm

cm5597 wrote:

Toby, thanks so much for sharing! It's very interesting to hear about all your results experimenting with different things. This is super valuable Smile

Hugs

Well what I hope to convey is age,skin type, and face shape might be a factor to why some things work for certain people and not for others.

free skin care · Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:34 pm

Toby wrote:

cm5597 wrote:

Toby, thanks so much for sharing! It's very interesting to hear about all your results experimenting with different things. This is super valuable Smile

Hugs

Well what I hope to convey is age,skin type, and face shape might be a factor to why some things work for certain people and not for others.

Hi Toby:

I was wondering which facial exercise programs you have used and which ones gave the most improvement?

Thanks

LC

free skin care · Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:38 pm

Well, I went looking for Tua Viso reviews: stopped by Tina Richard's own site and was well impressed with her, the site and the testimonials - and then came across this forum! What on earth is all this about? I don't know what to think (I'm referring to the fact that several people have posted on this link that their faces worsened after the Tua Viso):

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/chat/r/t-9925138/p-1/index.html

free skin care · Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:50 pm

semayden wrote:

Well, I went looking for Tua Viso reviews: stopped by Tina Richard's own site and was well impressed with her, the site and the testimonials - and then came across this forum! What on earth is all this about? I don't know what to think (I'm referring to the fact that several people have posted on this link that their faces worsened after the Tua Viso):

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/chat/r/t-9925138/p-1/index.html

Oh, sorry everyone. I found the Tua Viso thread today and see this has already been discussed! My apologies... Embarassed

free skin care · Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:08 pm

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I'm very wary of people who say that they've seen massive improvements or disastrous results from using a skin care gadget for a short amount of time.

I use all manner of devices and nothing has made an immediate impact on my skin - a slow and steady improvement, yes, but no miraculous or disastrous results. IMO using home-use gadgets is akin to eating a healthy diet - you'll benefit from long-term use.

free skin care · Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:11 pm

The only thing that worked in a reasonably short time (a few months) was facial exercise and I see improvements on a regular 3 month basis I would say. It's the most encouraging thing I've done and I would give up all of my skin care and anything else before I would give up facial exercise.

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