TENS, EMS, MENS, MC + DIY Devices
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free skin care · Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:11 pm

daler wrote:

Hi sistersweets, a lot of devices bought over ebay requires a converter to be used in North America an those can be bought for $10 or so.. even less.. not sure why this became such a huge issue now; most ebay buyers know this fact already.

Absolutely right! I had to buy a voltage converter for my HF Wand and it is extremely small and portable.

free skin care · Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:34 am

Quote:

Pico is the kind of device you just have to use because you know you are going to look better, rested, younger. I won't go to any big event without giving it a spin ahead of time and the results stay with me for several days. I expect it will become more and more cumulative.

I agree Sis. To that point, this past weekend I went to see a friend I hadn't seen in over 10 years. We've kept in touch mostly via Christmas cards, email, etc. Sad - I know! Anyway, she recently went through a nasty divorce and has a lot of stress in her life. So I promised to bring my Pico w/the wands to give her a nice relaxing treatment with the stem cell gel. My friend is heavy set with a full face, lots of neck creasing and her jawline is not well defined at all. In fact, there isn't a lot of separation between her jawline and neck. She recently had fillers put into her nasal labial area and it has helped somewhat, but there is still some creasing there. Well, I must say that at the end of the 30-minute treatment, she looked pretty damn good. She *did* look well rested, her jawline much more defined, a definite separation between her neck, her cheeks were higher on her face and as a result her nasal labial area picked up. She was very happy and told me that after I left she had dinner with a friend who commented that "You look fantastic!!"

So despite the discussion of other cheapie knock-offs on this thread, I for one would not settle for an immitation. Seriously folks you cannot compare the results, but also you might be flushing the money down the toilet, only to keep trying to find something that even comes close. There's really no comparison, and I know because I previously owned one of those cheapie units before the Pico. FWIW, the probes died twice, tarnished and the unit didn't seem to be putting out any current in the end. So instead of calling for another replacement, I finally just pitched it.. Smile

Best, Aprile

free skin care · Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:10 am

I have a thought regarding the quality and effectiveness of gloves.

Most all of us know who Philip (PQ) is. Philip did impedence testing of the Caci gloves as a comparison to the Pico gloves. (He posted this somewhere and it may be on his blog).

The point was to compare and to measure the effectiveness of the gloves. The Pico gloves outperformed the Caci gloves which are considered a higher end than the Chinese gloves.
If PQ were still here I'm sure he'd get a pair of the gloves similar to Angela's and test them for us as a comparison to the Pico gloves.

Bottom line is the Pico gloves do not have the impedence. This results in them being highly effective. Isn't that what we're going for?

free skin care · Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:21 am

Hello Angela. Do you mind giving us an idea of your age and what issues you are trying to address with microcurrent (or anything for that matter)? It may be that a simpler, less powerful unit may show results for a younger person.

I am in my mid 50's and I have all kinds of stuff to address Laughing

If you've read through the thread there are many on here who insist on pictures as evidence to prove that your machine works. (Keliu who just posted being one as I'm sure you aware).

I don't tend to require pictures - although it's quite nice and apparently it's the only thing that some on here take as valid proof. I can dig up the posts if you want me to.
Based on that, I'll ask the question - do you have before and after pictures to share?

Toby - has amazing before and afters of Pico toner results and shared them extensively with those who have asked. Did you see them by chance?

free skin care · Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:08 pm

Just chiming in to share something from a medical stanpoint in case it helps anyone.

I own a $5000. Medical grade TEN/EMS unit, complete with all the bells and whistles, and there is no way it will come anywhere near my face.

free skin care · Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:41 pm

sister sweets wrote:

Hello Angela. Do you mind giving us an idea of your age and what issues you are trying to address with microcurrent (or anything for that matter)? It may be that a simpler, less powerful unit may show results for a younger person.

I am in my mid 50's and I have all kinds of stuff to address Laughing

If you've read through the thread there are many on here who insist on pictures as evidence to prove that your machine works. (Keliu who just posted being one as I'm sure you aware).

I don't tend to require pictures - although it's quite nice and apparently it's the only thing that some on here take as valid proof. I can dig up the posts if you want me to.
Based on that, I'll ask the question - do you have before and after pictures to share?

Toby - has amazing before and afters of Pico toner results and shared them extensively with those who have asked. Did you see them by chance?

I have two lines underneath my eyes that 'appeared' a couple years ago that I absolutely hate. Hate, hate, hate, HATE. Laughing

Other than that, I have two small lines on each side in the "crows feet" area but nothing else. I'm 47. I've actually had my picture in my signature file for quite some time here. I used to have real, permanent wrinkles from "sleep lines" I get during deep sleep, but I was able to make those go away completely by using a portion of a ScarAway pad under my eyes each night, which I've shared about on a couple of other threads.

The lines are definitely softening. They are to the point now where someone else looking at me would probably say they can't see them at all. I, of course, know they are still there so I will keep working with them until *I* can't see them anymore either. (We are our own worst critics, after all.) I can't get a picture to actually show the lines so I can't get a "before" picture. My pictures don't look quite the same as what I see when I look into the mirror because I see a lot more detail on my face when I look at it in a mirror.

I've been using my "knock off" while doing some of the facial exercises. I've taken "gems" from several programs and put together my own routine. Loulou's "cheek exercises" work very well with the knock off. I'm pleased with the results and don't think I'd ever put out the $600 required for a Pico Toner. I'd have to have absolute, hard evidence that the Pico Toner does things that no other device can do before I'd ever consider that sort of expense. I spent $500 for the Palo Via laser thingy but that did not take away the under-eye lines and it did give me a lot of redness and two patches under my eyes (top of cheek area) that still turn red very easily; more so than any other area of my face. And I haven't used it for well over a year. I'm not about to spend hundreds more dollars for a device that is most likely very similar to what I already have.

P.S. EMS and Microcurrent are not quite the same thing. I think of microcurrent being "smaller" or more 'micro' than what you get with EMS. The EMS machines don't have to be turned up to a painful level or anything like that, of course. But EMS is not "microcurrent".

free skin care · Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:25 pm

I agree EMS is NOT microcurrent.. Neither TENS nor EMS are an alternative to the microamps of microcurrent devices designed for facial use... Like comparing apples and oranges and not a discussion I care to get into.

TENS and EMS are intended for pain management and can compromise ATP. I'd never use them on my face. What a risk. Basically the manufacturers are jumping on a bandwagon trying to put 'it all' in one device as a sales pitch.

free skin care · Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:29 pm

Angela - I so agree with your method of doing facial exercise. I love the freedom facial exercise gives and the opportunity to do them whenever, wherever. It is a wonderful adjunct to microcurrent use.

I missed what you posted in your sig line. Embarassed

Thanks though. Very nice of you to point me in the direction.

free skin care · Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:30 pm

sister sweets wrote:

I agree EMS is NOT microcurrent.. Neither TENS nor EMS are an alternative to the microamps of microcurrent devices designed for facial use... Like comparing apples and oranges and not a discussion I care to get into.

TENS and EMS are intended for pain management and can compromise ATP. I'd never use them on my face. What a risk. Basically the manufacturers are jumping on a bandwagon trying to put 'it all' in one device as a sales pitch.

TENS is for pain management. EMS is not. A lot of athletes use EMS along with their weights and workouts to develop bigger muscles. It's very, VERY common for athletes. I haven't ever heard one word about ATP being compromised by someone using an EMS machine on any portion of the body.

If you're happy with the Pico Toner, that's wonderful. I'm glad. But I honestly don't think it's necessary for me to pay $600 for yet another "microcurrent" device. I have the NuFace and the Micro Mini device and I use my EMS with my silver gloves for facial rejuvenation and I'm happy with the results.

free skin care · Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:39 pm

Sounds good. I still use my NuFace for a quick product penetration and a perk up!

free skin care · Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:38 pm

sister sweets wrote:

I agree EMS is NOT microcurrent.. Neither TENS nor EMS are an alternative to the microamps of microcurrent devices designed for facial use... Like comparing apples and oranges and not a discussion I care to get into.

TENS and EMS are intended for pain management and can compromise ATP. I'd never use them on my face. What a risk. Basically the manufacturers are jumping on a bandwagon trying to put 'it all' in one device as a sales pitch.

Hi sister sweet, if you look on your post from Patricia/Neurotris on the last page you will see were she says " the first generation microcurrent devices were Tens/EMS units" and mostly used for therapeutic purposes and for pain control.

It seems to me that Neurotris says that Tens/ EMS units can be mircocurrent devices (of course this would depend on the power settings)

free skin care · Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:01 pm

Here is a good article on the athletic use of EMS. You can see that it's used especially to enhance muscle development and also to promote circulation:

EMS for Maximum Strength and Performance

free skin care · Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:22 pm

CookieD wrote:

sister sweets wrote:

I agree EMS is NOT microcurrent.. Neither TENS nor EMS are an alternative to the microamps of microcurrent devices designed for facial use... Like comparing apples and oranges and not a discussion I care to get into.

TENS and EMS are intended for pain management and can compromise ATP. I'd never use them on my face. What a risk. Basically the manufacturers are jumping on a bandwagon trying to put 'it all' in one device as a sales pitch.

Hi sister sweet, if you look on your post from Patricia/Neurotris on the last page you will see were she says " the first generation microcurrent devices were Tens/EMS units" and mostly used for therapeutic purposes and for pain control.

It seems to me that Neurotris says that Tens/ EMS units can be mircocurrent devices (of course this would depend on the power settings)

So if the Pico is 2nd gen, that means that all TENS/EMS units (depending on power output) are microcurrent based on her definition. Good to know.

free skin care · Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:29 pm

CookieD wrote:

Hi sister sweet, if you look on your post from Patricia/Neurotris on the last page you will see were she says " the first generation microcurrent devices were Tens/EMS units" and mostly used for therapeutic purposes and for pain control.

It seems to me that Neurotris says that Tens/ EMS units can be mircocurrent devices (of course this would depend on the power settings)

My understanding is that microcurrent is just a power current that is micro (under 500 micro-amps). This current has been successfully used for the treatment of muscle injuries - but for facial rejuvenation, the clinical studies aren't really there.

The Pico device uses Specific Frequency Signatures. I think it was PQ who stated that this current does not have to be under 500 micro-amps - but whether this has been verified, I'm not sure. Also, Frequency Specific Microcurrent is considered pseudoscience by some. http://scepticon.wordpress.com/2008/08/11/frequency-specific-microcurrent/

I'm still not completely clear on how the Pico current (which Neutrosis calls next generation microcurrent) is different from "traditional" microcurrent. But IMO it does "feel" different.

free skin care · Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:34 pm

bethany wrote:

So if the Pico is 2nd gen, that means that all TENS/EMS units (depending on power output) are microcurrent based on her definition. Good to know.

I think TENS units are measured in milli-amps which is 1000 amps whereas EMS is micro-amps which is under 500 amps. I THINK! Therefore, EMS is the same as microcurrent. The FDA doesn't seem to discriminate between the two. But if the Pico isn't under 500 micro-amps then does that mean it's more like a TENS machine? See why I'm so confused!

free skin care · Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:37 pm

Kassy_A wrote:

Just chiming in to share something from a medical stanpoint in case it helps anyone.

I own a $5000. Medical grade TEN/EMS unit, complete with all the bells and whistles, and there is no way it will come anywhere near my face.

Can you elaborate why.

free skin care · Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:41 pm

From Wiki:

A Microcurrent Electrical Neuromuscular Stimulator or MENS (also microamperage electrical neuromuscular stimulator) is a device used to send weak electrical signals into the body. Such devices apply extremely small (less than 1 milliampere) electrical currents to nerves using electrodes placed on the skin. One microampere (uA) is 1 millionth of an ampere and the uses of MENS are distinct from those of "TENS" which runs at one milliamp(mA) or one thousanth of an amp.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcurrent_electrical_neuromuscular_stimulator

free skin care · Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:10 pm

Further to the difference between TENS and EMS - I believe the Tua Trend is a TENS device - this is why you get the muscle contractions.

Also, as for as I'm aware, microcurrent is just microcurrent - there's no "special" microcurrent for facial rejuvenation and "special" microcurrent for muscle therapy. Therefore, I can't see any problem in using an EMS device for facial rejuvenation as long as it is 500 micro-amps.

free skin care · Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:23 am

AngelaE8654 wrote:

Here is a good article on the athletic use of EMS. You can see that it's used especially to enhance muscle development and also to promote circulation:

EMS for Maximum Strength and Performance

Hey Angela,

From everything I've read, electronic muscle stimulators (EMS) or even TENS units are used to cause muscle contractions via electrical current applied to the muscle. They are FDA approved for many uses, but mostly related to medical therapy. I have heard of them being used *temporarily* to try to stimulate facial muscles of Bells Palsy or stroke patients, where there is no muscle control or response. I have never seen them recommended for facial toning and lifting. I would be scared to death to use such devices on my face for fear of the fat burning or sag. Not a good look!! The link you provided promotes use on the body, not the face.

Btw, I can understand why you wouldn't want to purchase the Pico right now, I saw your photo in your tag line, and honestly you don't really need it!! You look great! Perhaps in the future if you experience sagging or loss of volume, you might consider a Pico or something similar that performs better than the cheapie units.

Best, Aprile

free skin care · Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:43 am

aprile wrote:

AngelaE8654 wrote:

Here is a good article on the athletic use of EMS. You can see that it's used especially to enhance muscle development and also to promote circulation:

EMS for Maximum Strength and Performance

Hey Angela,

From everything I've read, electronic muscle stimulators (EMS) or even TENS units are used to cause muscle contractions via electrical current applied to the muscle. They are FDA approved for many uses, but mostly related to medical therapy. I have heard of them being used *temporarily* to try to stimulate facial muscles of Bells Palsy or stroke patients, where there is no muscle control or response. I have never seen them recommended for facial toning and lifting. I would be scared to death to use such devices on my face for fear of the fat burning or sag. Not a good look!! The link you provided promotes use on the body, not the face.

Btw, I can understand why you wouldn't want to purchase the Pico right now, I saw your photo in your tag line, and honestly you don't really need it!! You look great! Perhaps in the future if you experience sagging or loss of volume, you might consider a Pico or something similar that performs better than the cheapie units.

Best, Aprile

I really think there is some confusion as to the intended use of microcurrent. As I've said before, microcurrent has been historically used for muscle injury healing. Microcurrent used for facial rejuvenation is exactly the same thing - it is not a different technology - as long as it is 500 micro-amps.

Quote:

Microcurrent units may operate well below that, at about 900 µA. Current levels that seem to be most effective in helping tissue heal range from 20 to 500 MicroAmps.

Microcurrent is used for the relief of pain, because of its close proximity to our own body's current, and is thought to work on a more cellular level.
http://www.gordinmedical.com/eng/electrotherapy.php

So if your EMS device is operating at 500 microamps and below, it will be fine for use on the face. But if the EMS device causes muscle contractions I would say that it would not be suitable for facial use.

Sis, I would be very interested to know what ampage the Pico uses - could you find out for us please?

free skin care · Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:35 am

It is more about the the type of signal being used to determine whether it is for use on facial tissues or body muscle. 500 ua of a biphasic square wave will contract muscle where 500 ua DC will not.
In this understanding microamp numbers become *somewhat* secondary.
The current level is determined based on the type of signal used.... efficacious current levels vary and need to be matched with the type of signal being used.

free skin care · Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:40 am

aprile wrote:

AngelaE8654 wrote:

Here is a good article on the athletic use of EMS. You can see that it's used especially to enhance muscle development and also to promote circulation:

EMS for Maximum Strength and Performance

Hey Angela,

From everything I've read, electronic muscle stimulators (EMS) or even TENS units are used to cause muscle contractions via electrical current applied to the muscle. They are FDA approved for many uses, but mostly related to medical therapy. I have heard of them being used *temporarily* to try to stimulate facial muscles of Bells Palsy or stroke patients, where there is no muscle control or response. I have never seen them recommended for facial toning and lifting. I would be scared to death to use such devices on my face for fear of the fat burning or sag. Not a good look!! The link you provided promotes use on the body, not the face.

Btw, I can understand why you wouldn't want to purchase the Pico right now, I saw your photo in your tag line, and honestly you don't really need it!! You look great! Perhaps in the future if you experience sagging or loss of volume, you might consider a Pico or something similar that performs better than the cheapie units.

Best, Aprile

From the article above:

Quote:

Just as your body doesn’t know the difference between squats or deadlifts, it also doesn’t know the difference between voluntary contraction or an electrically induced one, it only recognizes stimulus.

The EMS contracts the muscle anywhere in the body by use of electrically induced stimuli. We are doing the same, exact, thing with facial exercises. Same thing. The reason the units were used "temporarily" on the face of stroke victims and people with Bell's Palsy is because once they got their proper muscle use back, there was no need to continue the treatment!! It's not because the units will do anything harmful to the face. Just like I no longer need a prescription to penicillin when I no longer have the illness it was prescribed for.

There is absolutely no "impedence" with the gloves or the pads or anything else with EMS. That concept was made up by the Pico Toner people to delude people into believing their unit is "special". How different can their technology be as opposed to other things that are available? Trust me, once something successful comes out, other companies copy it or if it's patented, do something similar enough to work the same but not exact enough to violate the patent. (Look at all the Vitamin C, Furelic, and Vitamin E combo serums you can find. That combination is patented, too but the 'knock off' companies make theirs just enough different so as not to violate the patent but their serums work exactly the same.) This is especially true when companies can get away with charging hundreds of dollars for their products. No way can one company keep their technology totally "secret". In the case of the Pico Toner, I'm convinced that that company simply created an EMS/Microcurrent type device but marketed it as something "special". That's why they're so defensive and misleading in their FAQ. Look at the FAQ that was shared right here in this thread. It leads people to believe that if you get a piece of equipment that requires a 220v receptacle, that it will be complicated and "dangerous" (their words) to convert it. Here is what they said:

Quote:

These devices from China are nothing like the Pico Toner. The magic gloves in that eBay ad will not work in North America because it requires 220vac. You will have to purchase an expensive, heavy and dangerous step up transformer in order to operate the device. I am surprised that was not disclosed to you.

We ALL know that these "converters" are small, inexpensive, and there's nothing "dangerous" about them.

I am a product creator. That's what I do for a living. (My products are digital/online products.) My products have also been copied by many, many, many other people and sold by them. Why? Because my products were successful and made money!! There is no getting around other companies "copying" what a successful company does. So there is absolutely NO WAY that Pico Toner has something "special" that you cannot get anywhere else. Again, I think their "secret" is simply marketing a common machine as if it was something "special". And then charging $600 for it. I was reading through this entire thread and there are plenty of people who have used the Pico Toner and stated that either they don't see very much improvement OR that the improvement is short lived. Just like any other microcurrent device.

Having to have a "special" device for facial tissues/muscles is the same thing as the belief that our facial skin is "different" and "fragile" and not like the skin on other parts of our bodies. Many people believe that, too...but it has been proven to be untrue. The only difference is that the skin of our face is actually attached to the muscles in some places. But a toned muscle is a toned muscle. It doesn't matter if it's on our face or on our thighs or abdomen. Toned muscles are going to look a lot better than flaccid, untoned muscles.

If you want to believe that the face is "different" from anything else on the body then you're going to be spending hundreds and hundreds (maybe thousands) of dollars on products that are marketed in a deceptive way to lead you to believe that only this product will work for what you are hoping to achieve. That's fine; it's your money. But be forewarned that it is cloak-and-dagger, deceptive marketing techniques that are leading you to part with your hard earned money. Not "special" pieces of equipment or lotions and potions and such.

If you're worried about fat loss then I assume you steer clear of any facial exercise at all; however, there are people who have done facial exercise for years and have proven that it works and works very well to "rejuvenate" the face. Look at Deborah Crowley and Carolyn and Carole Maggio and Loulou. (Even Facial Exercise has many different "programs". Why? Because people copy what's successful!!!) You can see many, many, MANY "before and after" photos online of people who have rejuvenated their faces using facial exercise. There is absolutely no difference with manually induced muscle "working" and electrically induced muscle working. The brain does not recognize the difference between the two.

Thank you for your kind words about my photo. Smile

free skin care · Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:39 pm

sister sweets wrote:

It is more about the the type of signal being used to determine whether it is for use on facial tissues or body muscle. 500 ua of a biphasic square wave will contract muscle where 500 ua DC will not.
In this understanding microamp numbers become *somewhat* secondary.
The current level is determined based on the type of signal used.... efficacious current levels vary and need to be matched with the type of signal being used.

Hi Sistersweet- can you tell me where you learned this? I would like to read up on it. Thanks

free skin care · Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:52 pm

Cookie - It was a discussion with an engineer. There was more involved to tell but I get the idea that it doesn't matter. The current track or goal of this thread doesn't seem to be to discuss the Pico toner.
Realistically the discussion of Chinese units or other units should be elsewhere. This thread is constantly being derailed by things that are not even close to the quality of the Pico toner.

Angela - Toby has at least 7 different microcurrent units and she'd be the first to tell you that "Indeed" the Pico is a major cut above the rest. She has options and she has results to prove the outcome of the Pico. She is a person who is in a position to make comparisons and speak about them knowledgably.

This is for Kassy: HER QUOTE: {I own a $5000. Medical grade TEN/EMS unit, complete with all the bells and whistles, and there is no way it will come anywhere near my face} -

Kassy - According to recs I've read on this thread recently: you should be able to strap that "bad boy" unit of hubbys on your face and let us know what it does for you Razz

EEEK.

free skin care · Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:55 pm

photoqueen wrote:

I will also post information on my blog as well as EDS as always.

PQ

http://homebeautydevices.wordpress.com/category/pico-toner/

This is from Philips blog - relates directly to the Pico. Lots of great information.

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