Another Gadget, TriPollar STOP
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free skin care · Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:39 pm

Kassy_A wrote:

I'm just wondering if any 'post' menopausal gals are seeing positive results with STOP?

Me's thinking maybe I just don't have enough collagen left to tighten ... Sad

BTW, I looked at my log/calendar, and I did 8 STOP treatments, not 7.

Argh! The older I get, the harder it is to keep up.. Everyday seems to bring a new obstacle to deal with .. Crying or Very sad

I am not menopausal. I'm 29 and haven't seen any improvements from STOP either after 7 treatments. I now have delayed it probably for over a week, because I became worried about possible damaging effects (in the long run or not). I started to think I might produce already enough collagen at my age, so that I don't see any difference with using STOP and maybe my sagging is due to facial muscles not lying flat..

hmm

, or either it works after longer time of use for some of us, or we are in the 2 %(or is this percentage in reality a 'bit' higher?) of not responding to RF..

My other worry is, if you use this device (too much), would it interfere with your natural ability to produce collagen? Could your own collagen producing mechanism become 'lazy' and produce even less collagen if you stop using STOP? Embarassed

Don't wont to scare anybody, but these are just some thoughts I've been having.. Rolling Eyes

free skin care · Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:53 pm

Kandy wrote:

Kassy_A wrote:

I'm just wondering if any 'post' menopausal gals are seeing positive results with STOP?

Me's thinking maybe I just don't have enough collagen left to tighten ... Sad

BTW, I looked at my log/calendar, and I did 8 STOP treatments, not 7.

Argh! The older I get, the harder it is to keep up.. Everyday seems to bring a new obstacle to deal with .. Crying or Very sad

I am not menopausal. I'm 29 and haven't seen any improvements from STOP either after 7 treatments. I now have delayed it probably for over a week, because I became worried about possible damaging effects (in the long run or not). I started to think I might produce already enough collagen at my age, so that I don't see any difference with using STOP and maybe my sagging is due to facial muscles not lying flat..

hmm

, or either it works after longer time of use for some of us, or we are in the 2 %(or is this percentage in reality a 'bit' higher?) of not responding to RF..

My other worry is, if you use this device (too much), would it interfere with your natural ability to produce collagen? Could your own collagen producing mechanism become 'lazy' and produce even less collagen if you stop using STOP? Embarassed

Don't wont to scare anybody, but these are just some thoughts I've been having.. Rolling Eyes

Kandy,
I think you are asking some good questions, especially because of age(nice and young but wanting to keep looking good!) I really think asking these kind of questions to Dr. Zion Azar would be wise.
Toby

free skin care · Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:57 pm

Toby wrote:

Kandy,
I think you are asking some good questions, especially because of age(nice and young but wanting to keep looking good!) I really think asking these kind of questions to Dr. Zion Azar would be wise.
Toby

Yeah Toby, that would be interesting to hear what his response is to my questions, allthough I can't believe just everything he says. First of all, because my last question can only be known after longterm use, which dr Azar never investigated and his last response about inflammation wasn't really satisfying to me. (he hardly said anything about inflammation, just that it wasn't an issue with STOP)

free skin care · Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:21 pm

On that website I pointed out earlier, in the Q&A section they discussed since what age can this method be recommended - the answer was since 28 years old depending on the condition of the skin.

They also talked about synergy of using it with muscle stimulation (such as electrical current stimulation like Tua Viso, etc.), or light peeling, but not deep peeling.

Since Stop is a home use device and obviously it would take many treatments at home to be equal to 1 done with the professional equipment, it seems to me that it may take a lot longer then 7 treatments to see results.

I also think that Dr. Azar assumed certain level of medical knowledge in his answer, so he assumed since he explained the mechanism how this device works it would make it clear to all of us why inflammation is not a factor.

I can try to talk later in the day to an MD to see if it makes sense to them. If I succeed I will post an update.

I often encounter it in my field when trying to explain something to the layman, so I am willing to give him a benefit of the doubt.

free skin care · Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:18 pm

sigma wrote:

I can try to talk later in the day to an MD to see if it makes sense to them. If I succeed I will post an update.

Ok thank you. I don't think it was that difficult to follow though (Dr Azar's answer). Just that he was like more explaining something else (or I may not have been reading thoroughly) and the answer about not using STOP with LEDs was a bit short (I would like to know why) Confused

free skin care · Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:26 pm

Kassy_A wrote:

I'm just wondering if any 'post' menopausal gals are seeing positive results with STOP?

Me's thinking maybe I just don't have enough collagen left to tighten ... Sad

BTW, I looked at my log/calendar, and I did 8 STOP treatments, not 7.

Argh! The older I get, the harder it is to keep up.. Everyday seems to bring a new obstacle to deal with .. Crying or Very sad

Included on Dr. Azar's reply was a chart showing how collagen depletes after the age of 20. Unfortunately, it won't let me copy and paste to here. However, it shows that at 60 we're supposed to have about 60% collagen left, so that's not too bad.

Kassy, I totally agree - it gets harder and harder to keep up. I've been having one of your "downers" lately and basically can't stand the sight of myself. However, we have to face the fact that we're just too hard on ourselves. And considering the fact that many of my country folk are in misery because of fires and floods, it seems totally pathetic to be worrying about wrinkles!!

I took a while to respond to LED treatments - in no way did I see an immediate improvement. After I've done a Stop treatment I do see some slight plumping (no real swelling) but it doesn't last. I'm still remaining positive about this though and enjoy the treatments.

free skin care · Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:17 pm

Kandy wrote:

I am not menopausal. I'm 29 and haven't seen any improvements from STOP either after 7 treatments. I now have delayed it probably for over a week, because I became worried about possible damaging effects (in the long run or not). I started to think I might produce already enough collagen at my age, so that I don't see any difference with using STOP and maybe my sagging is due to facial muscles not lying flat..

hmm

, or either it works after longer time of use for some of us, or we are in the 2 %(or is this percentage in reality a 'bit' higher?) of not responding to RF..

My other worry is, if you use this device (too much), would it interfere with your natural ability to produce collagen? Could your own collagen producing mechanism become 'lazy' and produce even less collagen if you stop using STOP? Embarassed

Don't wont to scare anybody, but these are just some thoughts I've been having..

It seems you are too young to need much work, and that might be why you aren't seeing "results".

Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:32 pm

I am absolutely amazed that some of our members would support someone who gave such a rude and condescending response. This is completely counter productive to the purpose of this forum. All related posts have been deleted. Please move on and stick to the topic (which most of you have done all along, so thank you Smile

).

free skin care · Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:42 pm

I did briefly touch the subject with one of the MDs I happen to have easy access to. Her reply was that the process described does not involve triggering inflammation. However, her major concern was cell growth stimulation and potential safety issues and possible side effects from long term usage.

HTH

free skin care · Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:22 pm

sigma wrote:

I did briefly touch the subject with one of the MDs I happen to have easy access to. Her reply was that the process described does not involve triggering inflammation. However, her major concern was cell growth stimulation and potential safety issues and possible side effects from long term usage.

HTH

So how does it generate new fibroblasts?

free skin care · Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:32 pm

Quote:

The medical face lift: a noninvasive, nonsurgical approach to tissue tightening in facial skin using nonablative radiofrequency.
Ruiz-Esparza J, Gomez JB.
University of California, San Diego, San Diego, California, USA.

BACKGROUND: Traditional surgical rhytidectomy is aimed at correcting facial skin that is sagging, which is caused by excessive skin laxity as a result of photoaging. Operating room facilities, general anesthesia, and a skilled surgeon are needed. The patient has recuperation time, which may be prolonged if complications arise. Incision lines are where they could be easily camouflaged or where they blend with natural lines. Nevertheless, healing of surgical wounds and concurrent scars are seen in all patients. OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the function of a novel technology that tightens tissue, using energy in the radiofrequency segment of the electromagnetic spectrum to produce internal heat within the skin. METHODS: Fifteen patients had one treatment session under topical anesthesia and without sedation. Ages ranged from 41 to 68 years. The total treatment time lasted 40 minutes or less. A new radiofrequency unit with concurrent delivery of a cryogen spray to spare the epidermis from burning was used. Pain was used as a clinical indicator of maximum tolerable energy delivered. No postoperative care was needed. RESULTS: All patients experienced minimal discomfort and were able to return to their normal activities right away. One patient did not respond to this treatment. For all of the others, Four independent visible results appeared approximately 12 weeks after the treatment session. In one patient, however, the results started at only 1 week after treatment.physicians outside of the study reviewed standardized photographs to evaluate results. The patients were followed for 6 to 14 months. CONCLUSION: Fourteen of 15 patients obtained cosmetic improvement from facial skin tightening induced by a novel nonlaser, nonablative, noninvasive source. Nonablative radiofrequency is a safe and effective method to achieve tissue tightening of the face to correct excessive sagging from photoaging. Patients had visible results as early as 1 week and generally within 3 months after the procedure without wounding or scarring.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12656808

free skin care · Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:41 pm

Quote:

Bipolar fractional radiofrequency treatment induces neoelastogenesis and neocollagenesis

Abstract

Background

We recently introduced RenesisTM, a novel minimally invasive radiofrequency (RF) device, for the treatment of human skin. The wound healing response post-fractional RF (FRFTM) treatment was examined in human subjects.

Study Design

The FRF system delivered RF energy directly within the dermis via 5 micro-needle electrode pairs. Tissue temperature was held at 72°C for 4 seconds using an intelligent feedback system. The wound healing response was evaluated histologically and by RT-PCR up to 10 weeks post-RF treatment. Neoelastogenesis and the role of heat shock proteins (HSPs) were assessed by immunohistochemistry.

Results

FRF treatment generated a RF thermal zone (RFTZ) pattern in the reticular dermis that consisted of zones of denatured collagen separated by zones of spared dermis. RFTZs were observed through day 28 post-treatment but were replaced by new dermal tissue by 10 weeks. HSP72 expression rapidly diminished after day 2 while HSP47 expression increased progressively through 10 weeks. Reticular dermal volume, cellularity, hyaluronic acid, and elastin content increased. RT-PCR studies revealed an immediate increase in IL-1, TNF-, and MMP-13 while MMP-1, HSP72, HSP47, and TGF- levels increased by 2 days. We also observed a marked induction of tropoelastin, fibrillin, as well as procollagens 1 and 3 by 28 days post-treatment.

Conclusion

Our study revealed a vigorous wound healing response is initiated post-treatment, with progressive increase in inflammatory cell infiltration from day 2 through 10 weeks. An active dermal remodeling process driven by the collagen chaperone HSP47 led to complete replacement of RFTZs with new collagen by 10 weeks post-treatment. Furthermore, using both immunohistochemical and PCR studies, we successfully demonstrated for the first time evidence of profound neoelastogenesis following RF treatment of human skin. The combination of neoelastogenesis and neocollagenesis induced by treatment with the FRF system may provide a reliable treatment option for skin laxity and/or rhytids.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/121638003/abstract

free skin care · Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:16 pm

Bethany,

If I understood Dr. Azar's answer correctly -

Quote:

Existing Collagen fibers contract – making immediate skin tightening and firming.

Fibroblasts metabolism increases, producing new collagen molecules at an accelerated pace for the long lasting effects.]

-
it does not generate Fibroblasts, it speeds up the new cell generation by applying heat and thus generating collagen. Again, it is not my field, so I could be totally off.

It seems to me that it is the case when a little knowledge makes things even more confusing then none. I would suggest that if inflammation is still a concern - to write him directly and ask him to explain it in detail to people outside of medical field.

I am now much more concerned whether it can lead to skin cancer down the road (cell proliferation, etc).

free skin care · Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:43 pm

sigma wrote:

Bethany,

If I understood Dr. Azar's answer correctly -

Quote:

Existing Collagen fibers contract – making immediate skin tightening and firming.

Fibroblasts metabolism increases, producing new collagen molecules at an accelerated pace for the long lasting effects.]

-
it does not generate Fibroblasts, it speeds up the new cell generation by applying heat and thus generating collagen. Again, it is not my field, so I could be totally off.

It seems to me that it is the case when a little knowledge makes things even more confusing then none. I would suggest that if inflammation is still a concern - to write him directly and ask him to explain it in detail to people outside of medical field.

I am now much more concerned whether it can lead to skin cancer down the road (cell proliferation, etc).

I missed the metabolism comment before...very interesting. I would write to Dr. Azar and ask, but I would prefer to get an answer from someone without a financial stake. I am going to ask my derm for her opinion when I go in March.

Based on my personal results, there is no doubt in my mind that the STOP generates inflammation, though that may not drive the fibroblast activity. Considering that it takes 2 days before my visible inflammation is gone after a treatment, I will be taking a more conservative route than most people...and that will probably help from the cell proliferation risk standpoint as well.

At this point, we should be using any and all tools in moderation since we really have no idea what the long term ramifications are. I have been stretching my current STOP treatments out to every 4 days, and I think I'll continue with that. And once I hit maintenance, I think I'll dial back to once every 2 or 3 weeks.

BTW, I noticed today that my skin does not look nearly as good as it did prior to starting STOP. Hopefully that will turn around soon.

free skin care · Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:34 pm

Bethany,

I agree with you 100%. I am now also very concerned, even if for a different reason.

If I come across any additional information I will try to post it as well. I hope everyone will do the same.

For now - everything in moderation.

free skin care · Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:29 am

I just want to remind everyone that just about every skin clinic around the world now uses some kind of laser or RF machine to offer skin treatments to clients. There's IPL, Fractional Laser, Thermage and a myriad of others - this is the technology of the day and it has been embraced widely. To my knowledge, the safety of these professional and more powerful treatments has not been widely discussed on this Forum and yet everybody seems to be increasingly worried about the Stop.

Personally, I believe that these types of machines are the future of anti-aging and will, eventually, take the place of invasive cosmetic surgery altogether. As for their long term safety, I guess we will only know that in another 50 years or so. But I do have faith in our protective supervising bodies who oversee such health matters.

Incidentally, I was at the supermarket today buying a lightglobe - I picked up one of the newer energy saving ones and the woman standing next to me said, "Don't buy that love, I just read an article saying that they give off radiation, they're supposed to be very unsafe". I mean honestly, EVERYTHING you touch today is supposed to give you cancer! I can remember when TVs first came out (yes, I am that old) and we were told that if we went too close to them we would get a dose of radiation. Well, I'm not glowing yet!

IMO, there is one thing that is bad for you - and that is stress. That's why I try not to stress about all this stuff too much but, of course, each person must do what makes them most comfortable.

free skin care · Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:42 am

bethany wrote:

Bipolar fractional radiofrequency treatment induces neoelastogenesis and neocollagenesis

I read the summary on the Renesis study - very interesting. (That was after wading through a bunch of stuff about Mazda's new rotary engine of the same name. Rolling Eyes

) Is it your theory that STOP works in the same manner via wound healing response, although the radio waves are not delivered directly via micro-needle electrodes? (Or maybe they are, and I just haven't realized it?) The fractional component doesn't appear to apply to STOP; does STOP also reach a sub-epidermal treatment temperature of 72C? (The STOP doesn't appear to have a method of cooling or by-passing the epidermis, so I'm wondering how hot the reticular dermal layer actually gets.) The Renesis article doesn't mention fibroblasts at all, so I'm guessing new ones aren't generated, it's just that the old ones are kicked into high gear... The article did not discuss the structure of the new dermal tissue; do we assume it is not organized as scar tissue, in contrast to Fraxel? (I guess I ended up with more questions than answers!) The 10 week period for neo-collagenesis appears to correlate with the 12 week STOP program, which is encouraging.

free skin care · Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:05 am

Keliu,

you are correct. The safety questions are not specific to Stop.

When I asked one of the USA leading skin cancer specialist at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, his answer was - the only ones that the safety had been established for were lasers; LEDs and RFs (I did not ask about them at the time I was unaware of their existence) are too new and not yet enough research had been done to confirm their safety.

The reason Stop is an issue - it specifically induces faster cell division/production and that may be a dangerous thing.

free skin care · Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:22 pm

Treatment #9 under my belt, with nothing positive going on yet; zilch, nada, zippo, nanda... Rolling Eyes

I'm not giving up though, and will continue every 3rd day till #12, then figure it out from there..

I absolutely love doing this treatment though, it feels fabulous!

I'm probably in the dreaded 2% that doesn't respond positively to RF.. Sad

.. Argh!

free skin care · Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:31 pm

I've done 8 treatments and have had the same results - meaning nothing. I too will continue on hoping that collagen is building under there! It seems like it's not working for a lot more than 2% of the people.

free skin care · Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:47 pm

Charis,

I'll be happy to buy yours if you want to sell it.

Inky

free skin care · Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:43 pm

tessera wrote:

bethany wrote:

Quote:

Bipolar fractional radiofrequency treatment induces neoelastogenesis and neocollagenesis

I read the summary on the Renesis study - very interesting. (That was after wading through a bunch of stuff about Mazda's new rotary engine of the same name. Rolling Eyes

) Is it your theory that STOP works in the same manner via wound healing response, although the radio waves are not delivered directly via micro-needle electrodes? (Or maybe they are, and I just haven't realized it?) The fractional component doesn't appear to apply to STOP; does STOP also reach a sub-epidermal treatment temperature of 72C? (The STOP doesn't appear to have a method of cooling or by-passing the epidermis, so I'm wondering how hot the reticular dermal layer actually gets.) The Renesis article doesn't mention fibroblasts at all, so I'm guessing new ones aren't generated, it's just that the old ones are kicked into high gear... The article did not discuss the structure of the new dermal tissue; do we assume it is not organized as scar tissue, in contrast to Fraxel? (I guess I ended up with more questions than answers!) The 10 week period for neo-collagenesis appears to correlate with the 12 week STOP program, which is encouraging.

So did I, but figured that maybe I just need to think less, lol.

free skin care · Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:53 pm

Keliu wrote:

I just want to remind everyone that just about every skin clinic around the world now uses some kind of laser or RF machine to offer skin treatments to clients. There's IPL, Fractional Laser, Thermage and a myriad of others - this is the technology of the day and it has been embraced widely. To my knowledge, the safety of these professional and more powerful treatments has not been widely discussed on this Forum and yet everybody seems to be increasingly worried about the Stop.

Personally, I believe that these types of machines are the future of anti-aging and will, eventually, take the place of invasive cosmetic surgery altogether. As for their long term safety, I guess we will only know that in another 50 years or so. But I do have faith in our protective supervising bodies who oversee such health matters.

Well, maybe that's because you don't live in the US, where approval of products depends more on how much Big Pharma, etc. contributes to various political campaigns, lol.

There are lots of things in the US that have been banned in other countries, so we really have to do our due diligence. And many things are simply not acknowledged here...like the existance of systemic candidiasis because the US health system has contributed greatly by handing out antibiotics like candy, and lessing the reliance on drugs would financially hurt Big Pharma. Aspartame is another example.

That said, I am not scared of STOP at all...I just want to HOW it works at a detail level, and that will drive how often I use it. Keep in mind that I also happen to think that if Botox kills some of my brain cells, my senior years will be far more tolerable...so I definitely try to see both sides of the coin! Very Happy

free skin care · Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:58 pm

InkyProse wrote:

Charis,

I'll be happy to buy yours if you want to sell it.

Inky

If I have no results by the end of 10 weeks (total), then you've got a deal! I am still holding out hope though!

free skin care · Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:10 pm

Kassy_A wrote:

Treatment #9 under my belt, with nothing positive going on yet; zilch, nada, zippo, nanda... Rolling Eyes

I'm not giving up though, and will continue every 3rd day till #12, then figure it out from there..

I absolutely love doing this treatment though, it feels fabulous!

I'm probably in the dreaded 2% that doesn't respond positively to RF.. Sad

.. Argh!

How long did it take before you began to see results from LED - wasn't that a matter of months? I'm not seeing any results either but now that I have this device, I'll continue to use it.

The results after 12 treatments confuses me a bit also. When I had my Thermage treatment, I was told that results wouldn't be fully visible until six months down the track. (The fact that I saw very little visible improvement from Thermage doesn't bode well for Stop but I will keep going with it).

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