302 Skincare- 2 moisturizers, 3-4 facial cleansers?
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free skin care · Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:17 am

Hi,
There had been some posting on this forum regarding Dr. Huber and his line of 302 skincare products. It all sounds extremely interesting and the website for 302 is very informative. It recommends alternating between 2 moisturizers and 3 (even 4) facial cleansers.
What would be the purpose of this practice, does it have to do with the issue of receptor fatigue? What ingredients should we look for for when choosing a moisturizer and cleanser?
I'm hoping Dr. Huber or another EDS forum member can shed some light.

Thanks,
Katie

free skin care · Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:10 am

hi katie,

i personally have three different cleansers, which i use for different purposes. i really try to pay attention to my skin, and it is purely intuitive, of course. I'm not sure what the actual reasons are behind Dr. Huber's recommendations, since I have not looked into them, but here is a list of the cleansers I use and why:
1. Osea cleansing milk: a light, non-foaming, enzymatic milk cleanser that cleans my skin and leaves it feeling soft and healthy and never stripped. I use it twice per day and most often--it is my "base" cleanser.
2. When I feel like my skin might be breaking out, or when it needs a bit more cleansing, I use an essential oil based foaming cleanser: Sanoflore's organice rosewood and argan radiant complexion foam. it leaves my skin feeling a little tight, though, so at most i use this once or twice per week. it is very light and frothy, and my hormonal skin loves the rosewood oil.
3. osea's cleansing mud--this is an exfoliation cleanser with tons of active ingredients and a very high concentration of essential oils. it is a deep pore cleanser, sos i only use it once per week. it really removes every last speck of dirt from my skin without stripping it; what's more, it reduces the size of my pores.

so, in general, i have a normal, nourishing cleanser, and then a couple of others that are more heavy duty. i wash my skin according to its needs; if i spent an entire summer day bicycling around nyc, i'd most likely use the mud--if i spent all day in the air-conditioned library, i'd happily reach for the cleansing milk... hth!

--avalange

free skin care · Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:07 am

Katie,

I also have a few different cleansers and moisturizers. It all started out from me wanting to try different products and couldn't resist buying them all. Now, I'm using different ones for different times and occasions.

1. Yon-Ka Cleansing Milk - It's my HG cleanser (or so I thought). It never irritates my skin and leaves my skin feeling clean unlike other milk cleanser I've tried. However, I'm suspecting it's drying out my skin so I've stopped using it for now.

2. The Organic Pharmacy Rose Cleansing Gel - I use this every morning. It's very gentle and doesn't lather up. I don't think it's great at removing makeup traces, so I only use it in the morning. I really love it as it doesn't dry out my skin, leaves it feeling fresh and it smells lovely.

3. Babor Hy Ol with Babor Phytoactive Sensitive - These are 2-step cleansers. You put oil onto your dry skin first, and follow with Phytoactive, then wet your face and rinse off. It's unlike other cleansing oils I've tried. It doesn't dry out my skin at all, but I think I've noticed film it leaves on my skin (still undecided). I use it in the evening on those days I don't wear makeup, but need to remove my high SPF sunscreen.

4. Eve Lom Cleanser - This is my new found love. It's also using OCM. I tried it last night and fell in love with it. It didn't irritate my skin and left my skin feeling soft. It also helps getting rid of my flakies a bit as I had to clean it off with a muslin cloth. It's definitely a keeper for evenings when I need to remove makeup.

I think it's important to listen to my skin and pick an appropriate cleanser. I would be happy to use Eve Lom Cleanser every evening as I live in a very polluted city, but it's just too expensive. Same applies to The Organic Pharmacy Rose Facial Cleansing Gel.

Lynn

Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:17 pm

Varying your routine and choice of products will help to avoid 'receptor fatigue' - however, I need to fully explain this coined term of mine: 'receptor fatigue' first.

Almost everything you put on your skin breaks down into metabolites (smaller chemical structures) from enzymes in the skin OR if the substance does not go that far into the skin to be acted upon, will hydrolyze (break apart) or oxidize in the air and be sloughed off.

Some of the substances are easier to break up into metabolites than others. When the skin goes to work on a substance that has managed to get down below (and it is much like trying to get something to soak in through a shingled roof) a lot of alarms go off.

Applying anything topically will trigger an immediate jump in both desirable and undesirable cells and cell constituents. This includes warm water.

The resulting metabolites often modulate, that is, alter the rate of protein synthesis as well as the quantity and quality of constituents in the cells which affect all aspects of its vitality.

Certain substances, say vitamins for example, key on specific functions in the cell. The many hows and whys of that and the pluses and minuses are the subject of zillions of research papers.

For purposes of understanding very complex biochemistry, I have done a bit of violence with the terminology to summarize the many cascades of events that take place when topical substances arrive at the cell door. Ultimately these substances, whatever their chemical construction, will alter protein synthesis - the rate of it and the quality of it.

Protein synthesis occurs as receptors, or connecting points, take up the materials needed for metabolism.

If there is a line forming around the block to get into the cell and energize it, say, and increase the rate of metabolism and form new protein cells, the cells will after a short time, say a few weeks, become quite inhospitable and reduce the number of cell factories to process the good stuff lined up outside AND will notify other areas in the cell to reduce production of protein and everything else until the characters outside go away.

The receptors that were working overtime to turn all that metabolic activity into new protein are given a vacation, laid off, told to find other work. The overwhelming amount of material to process and move up to the receptors has worn the whole system out - because the excess of metabolites has to be removed if it isn't used.

Ergo, receptor fatigue. Maybe we can think of a better term, but you get the idea.

But there's more, in that the epidermis has NO blood vessels and hence no lymphatic garbage collection system, the excess of goodies for the cell (vitamins, nutrients, antioxidants, 302, ANYTHING) becomes like a sullen, over-fed, spoiled teenager with nothing to do - and so, fires start - oxidation reactions, free radicals form, skin weakens, and the rapid improvements are just as rapidly lost as the skin spends most of its energy trying to throw the bums out, or at least put out the fires.

What is doubly unfortunate in all this is that if the substance that has flooded in from the top continues to flood in, day after day, sometimes twice a day, a whole new metabolic community pops up - one dedicated to handling the flood - it supplies a whole new protein fighting force and all the support that goes with that - so that if the flooding stops, that community collapses.

It is as if FEMA came into town, set up shop, everyone becomes dependent and then one day, it leaves. The whole place goes bananas. Itching, redness and so forth until the flood comes back.

This is topical * spam alert *.

The main thing to remember is that some substances set this up faster and to a more severe degree than others. What they are specifically depends on YOU. Some of you may tolerate a lot more flooding than others of certain substances. This is because the available enzymes, among other things, varies from person to person in quality and quantity to do the work of handling the 'stuff.'

Just as some people respond better to one thing than the other person does, the converse is true, some will respond worse. Natural biochemical differences are why you can be confused to find that Jane had a great result and you had a so-so result, and vice versa.

As a general rule, if you respond quite well to something, that is, your skin really blooms - back off, don't form a line around the block at the cell door. Punctuate your dosing of this desirable substance. Go to every other day, for example.

Moisturizers with different chemistry will help somewhat. Ditto, cleansers. Don't let the skin get too familiar with any one thing. Easy for me to say.

And recall too, the exceptions prove the rule. There are some people who can find a substance, say a retinoid, or a 302 and just bathe in it and it is like a hand in glove relationship that goes on for decades. They are not common.

One last note, and then I must get back to the vats - charged particles tend to cause more problems than non-charged particles. Acids are charged particles - they have a direct hot line to the skin FEMA department and will set up * spam alert * faster than anything I know of.

Now, if you don't believe it my acid head friends - then try stopping your regime for a few days - go naked - if your skin goes in the tank - well, you're addicted.

I double dog dare all of you, acids heads or not (and especially you retinoid addicts). Take the * spam alert * test. Let's see how it sorts out.

See ya,

free skin care · Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:25 pm

302 Doc wrote:

Varying your routine and choice of products will help to avoid 'receptor fatigue' - however, I need to fully explain this coined term of mine: 'receptor fatigue' first.

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=20546 (CLICK ON THIS LINK)

Boski

free skin care · Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:54 pm

Dr.Huber, thank you very much or taking the time to explain your theory to us. We truly appreciate it.

I just heard about receptor fatique and topical * spam alert * last week on this site.

I had been using Retin A 0.025%, lactic acid and Vit C in the acidic, water soluable L'ascorbic acid serum form building up to daily application within the last three months. I knew I had to change s.t. because after getting used to the topicals and improving beautifully, my skin got more irritated once again. Furhtermore, the acidic potions just never felt right when applied. But I thought this is how it is supposed to be. I put up with it Smile

So, I stopped all the actives starting last week Wednesday morning. No tretinoin, AHA or Vit C.

My skin started looking and feeling better and better with each day.

I am going to stay off all acids except a low strength Renova 0.025% on a 1 day on followed by 2 days off basis. I intend to add 302 C booster 2 days a week.

Im looking forward to learning more and hearing others experiences.

Thanks again also Boski Smile

free skin care · Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:59 pm

Dr Huber,

Thanks for posting and explaining things in layman's terms. I still have a hard time understanding the first time I read your explanations sometimes, so your analogies are helpful.

As a way of introducing yourself, can you give us a brief summary of your academic credentials, research background, and just exactly what your role at 302 is today? I'm sure people would like to know you alittle better.

Also, tell us how you discovered and developed avocatin? I think that is a fascinating story.

free skin care · Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:13 pm

Dr. Huber,

Thank you for taking the time out to post such a lengthy, in-depth response. You presented a very different (and desperately vital) perspective to skincare in my opinion. I hope you will continue to share your knowledge with the rest of us.

To Boski- Thank you so much for introducing us to the doc!!

free skin care · Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:18 pm

So, essentially, it's the 'trash can theory' doctors use for the immune system?

ie., you are subjected to mold most of your life, your immune system becomes overflowed and you become allergic to it.

Execpt, I don't get the leaving town part. I mean, If something is working for you and you totally stop, of course the symptoms you had will come back, right?

Well, I know I am not addicted to acid yet. But, I am at the begining of this trip!

free skin care · Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:58 am

zumlya wrote:

So, essentially, it's the 'trash can theory' doctors use for the immune system?

ie., you are subjected to mold most of your life, your immune system becomes overflowed and you become allergic to it.

Execpt, I don't get the leaving town part. I mean, If something is working for you and you totally stop, of course the symptoms you had will come back, right?

Well, I know I am not addicted to acid yet. But, I am at the begining of this trip!

I believe by using the term "* spam alert *", he is implying that if you stop a product that the skin is addicted to, the skin will "immediately" react and be worse than when you started. Say you have used Retin A to get rid of wrinkles on a daily basis for years, then you suddenly stop. If within a week or two the skin turns dry, itchy, red, breaks out, or becomes even more wrinkled than when you started - that would be an * spam alert * reaction. It's not a gradual going back to your original state. Just like when drug addicts stop using and go cold turkey, the body reacts by giving you fever, chills, nausea, headaches.

free skin care · Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:36 am

boski wrote:

zumlya wrote:

So, essentially, it's the 'trash can theory' doctors use for the immune system?

ie., you are subjected to mold most of your life, your immune system becomes overflowed and you become allergic to it.

Execpt, I don't get the leaving town part. I mean, If something is working for you and you totally stop, of course the symptoms you had will come back, right?

Well, I know I am not addicted to acid yet. But, I am at the begining of this trip!

I believe by using the term "* spam alert *", he is implying that if you stop a product that the skin is addicted to, the skin will "immediately" react and be worse than when you started. Say you have used Retin A to get rid of wrinkles on a daily basis for years, then you suddenly stop. If within a week or two the skin turns dry, itchy, red, breaks out, or becomes even more wrinkled than when you started - that would be an * spam alert * reaction. It's not a gradual going back to your original state. Just like when drug addicts stop using and go cold turkey, the body reacts by giving you fever, chills, nausea, headaches.

Thank you, that makes sense.

free skin care · Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:22 pm

Monica, how did you go about ordering that? When I looked at the website it won't let me order anything.
I can't use anything(yet) till I get done testing candys c serum, but I am trying to hold off doing that until my face calms down. I want to give it a fair chance.
But I like the sounds of this whole thing. When its not confusing me.

free skin care · Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:27 pm

razinkane wrote:

Monica, how did you go about ordering that? When I looked at the website it won't let me order anything.
I can't use anything(yet) till I get done testing candys c serum, but I am trying to hold off doing that until my face calms down. I want to give it a fair chance.
But I like the sounds of this whole thing. When its not confusing me.

Here' a website for you:

http://www.ellensplacesalon.com/302.htm

free skin care · Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:11 pm

Here's another website you can check out.

http://www.shlomitskincare.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=SSC&Category_Code=302

free skin care · Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:43 pm

I don't see how we can order a product to try (much as 302 drops intrigue me). I don't think you can continue using all your reg. skincare & just add one of the 302 products. You have to stop using all acids for a week before you even start, apparently. Unfortunate..don't see how I can take the plunge...I have too much invested in my other stuff. Wish I could just try 302 drops..not that I think my depressed acne scars will disappear..but....hope springs eternal Confused

free skin care · Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:50 pm

How about product frequency in Dr.Huber's terms on scars? Do the same rules apply? Retinoids 1-2X weekly and Vit C 2-3X weekly only? Or is the tolerance of damaged tissue higher?

I suppose no chemical exfoliants there either?

I would like to treat a bodily scar which is nine months old.I didnt find anything about this on his site.

free skin care · Fri Mar 02, 2007 7:09 pm

Thanks

free skin care · Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:33 pm

Here is another link where you can order 302 products from. Another reason Im posting it is that they have some pretty good reading material on there as well.

http://www.ellensplacesalon.com/302.htm

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