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Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:19 pm  |
I was wondering if anyone has been alternating each night between using a tretinoin and a copper peptide product?
I thought this way I could stimulate collagen each night without irritating my skin. The copper would also be anti inflammatory in addition. |
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Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:07 pm |
| Good question and I really don't know. I want to follow up with your thread to see what other members will say. |
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Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:21 pm |
| I have been using copper peptides for only a couple of months now, so I am by no means an expert. But I did read Dr. Pickart's book, and I also learned a little from reading his forum on which there are quite a few older posts addressing retin-A. In his book, he recommends using retin-a and copper peptides at different times of the day. This is the approach I take. On the forum, he states that it is ok to use them together if you layer them, first retin-A, then CPs. In other words, there are no hard and fast rules. The golden rules are a)don't go to fast and b)watch for signs of irritation/slackness, at which point pull back for a bit. He also states that CPs calm the irritation from retin-A. So in other words, I think your approach would work just fine. |
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Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:27 pm |
| Pachouli wrote: |
| I have been using copper peptides for only a couple of months now, so I am by no means an expert. But I did read Dr. Pickart's book, and I also learned a little from reading his forum on which there are quite a few older posts addressing retin-A. In his book, he recommends using retin-a and copper peptides at different times of the day. This is the approach I take. On the forum, he states that it is ok to use them together if you layer them, first retin-A, then CPs. In other words, there are no hard and fast rules. The golden rules are a)don't go to fast and b)watch for signs of irritation/slackness, at which point pull back for a bit. So in other words, I think your approach would work just fine. |
when you layer them, after putting on the Retin-A, how long do you wait before putting on the CP??
thanks,
Chrissie |
_________________
46 yrs old, I live at the beach and love being out in the sun. |
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Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:49 pm |
| On his forum, some people state they actually mix them together. So I don't think you have to wait very long if you layer them. He just suggests retin-a first. (But I don't do this personnally. I use them at different times of the day.) |
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Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:33 am |
Thanks Patchouli  |
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Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:48 am |
| Chrissie wrote: |
| Pachouli wrote: |
| I have been using copper peptides for only a couple of months now, so I am by no means an expert. But I did read Dr. Pickart's book, and I also learned a little from reading his forum on which there are quite a few older posts addressing retin-A. In his book, he recommends using retin-a and copper peptides at different times of the day. This is the approach I take. On the forum, he states that it is ok to use them together if you layer them, first retin-A, then CPs. In other words, there are no hard and fast rules. The golden rules are a)don't go to fast and b)watch for signs of irritation/slackness, at which point pull back for a bit. So in other words, I think your approach would work just fine. |
when you layer them, after putting on the Retin-A, how long do you wait before putting on the CP??
thanks,
Chrissie |
I wait 30 minutes. |
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Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:29 am |
Bumping because the retin-a/CP question was asked in another thread. I also found this posted by Dr.Pickart on the skinbiology forum:
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There was a report in Dermatology Times a few years ago that said GHK-copper and retinoic acid were used together and the overall result was better than either alone.
So the best way would be to first apply the GHK-copper, then the retinoic acid cream. The retinoic acid cream will push more GHK-copper into the skin. |
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Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:36 am |
That's confusing Patchouli because I swear in other places he says not to use anything acidic with the original GHK molecule because it breaks down too quickly which is backed up on other sites too.  interesting! |
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Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:46 am |
| Molly wrote: |
| That's confusing Patchouli because I swear in other places he says not to use anything acidic with the original GHK molecule because it breaks down too quickly which is backed up on other sites too. interesting! |
Oh agreed. He contradicts himself more than once. He originally said the reverse order of retin-a, then CPs  I guess it is whatever works for you, which is something both Dr. Hannah and Dr. Pickart have said about the use of their actives.
I personally use CPS and retin-A at different times. |
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Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:10 am |
| Molly wrote: |
| That's confusing Patchouli because I swear in other places he says not to use anything acidic with the original GHK molecule because it breaks down too quickly which is backed up on other sites too. interesting! |
could it be that retinoic acid isn't actually acidic? I mean hyaluronic acid tests as neutral but it is still has acid in it's name |
_________________
my new jewellery website:www.gentle-medusa.com |
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Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:18 am |
| Yes, except I'm pretty sure I've read over on the SCB that it's an acid. Where's Tangal when you need her |
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Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:34 am |
Having taken biochemistry and organic chemistry, I can say there are two uses of the word acid. In chemistry, something is named an acid if it has a carboxyl (-COOH) group. Acid is also used for anything that changes the pH of a solution, usually by releasing a proton. (So yeah, what guapagirl said, an acid doesn't necessarily have to act acidic. It depends on other groups attached to the molecule and on the pH of solution it is added to, and on the presence of a buffer.)
An acid can denature a peptide (protein) rendering it inactive. But since there are a few variables involved, so it would probably either have to be measured or a best guess made. I would prefer the word of someone who studied the peptide than trying to make a guess myself. |
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Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:50 am |
I use copper peptite (super Cp) every night. I am waiting for my retin A order to arrive. I am going to keep using my copper every night, and then spot treat fine lines areas with retin A on top of my copper.
If I get any irritation then, I wont use the copper when I spot treat with Retin A, but I'm usually tolerate things very well.
I slap on a layer of emu oil on top of it all, so I'm not expecting too much flaking. If I get some, I'll just add more emu oil on top. |
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Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:58 am |
| Pachouli wrote: |
Having taken biochemistry and organic chemistry, I can say there are two uses of the word acid. In chemistry, something is named an acid if it has a carboxyl (-COOH) group. Acid is also used for anything that changes the pH of a solution, usually by releasing a proton. (So yeah, what guapagirl said, an acid doesn't necessarily have to act acidic. It depends on other groups attached to the molecule and on the pH of solution it is added to, and on the presence of a buffer.)
An acid can denature a peptide (protein) rendering it inactive. But since there are a few variables involved, so it would probably either have to be measured or a best guess made. I would prefer the word of someone who studied the peptide than trying to make a guess myself. |
Very interesting! Are acids only capable of denaturing peptides at a low pH or can this happen if the "acid" is a neutral pH? I guess what I am asking is are both types of acids that you defined capable of denaturing a peptide. Also, I thought that part of the problem with CPs and acids (using the term to indicate a low pH solution) was that the acid could cause the copper to dissociate from the peptide creating free copper which might not be a good thing. This is different from denaturing a peptide or am I wrong on this? And is there reason to be concerned about the copper and peptide dissociating. |
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Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:34 am |
| TheresaL wrote: |
| Pachouli wrote: |
Having taken biochemistry and organic chemistry, I can say there are two uses of the word acid. In chemistry, something is named an acid if it has a carboxyl (-COOH) group. Acid is also used for anything that changes the pH of a solution, usually by releasing a proton. (So yeah, what guapagirl said, an acid doesn't necessarily have to act acidic. It depends on other groups attached to the molecule and on the pH of solution it is added to, and on the presence of a buffer.)
An acid can denature a peptide (protein) rendering it inactive. But since there are a few variables involved, so it would probably either have to be measured or a best guess made. I would prefer the word of someone who studied the peptide than trying to make a guess myself. |
Very interesting! Are acids only capable of denaturing peptides at a low pH or can this happen if the "acid" is a neutral pH? I guess what I am asking is are both types of acids that you defined capable of denaturing a peptide. Also, I thought that part of the problem with CPs and acids (using the term to indicate a low pH solution) was that the acid could cause the copper to dissociate from the peptide creating free copper which might not be a good thing. This is different from denaturing a peptide or am I wrong on this? And is there reason to be concerned about the copper and peptide dissociating. |
Yes, a substance that acts as an acid (releases a proton and lowers the pH of the solution) can denature a protein. Bases can denature proteins too, that is why your skin burns if you touch liquid plumber. There a strong acids and weak acids, they both can chemically be named an acid because they contain the carboxylic group, but some acids will not give up the proton at all. Even water at neutral pH can act as an acid by giving up a proton, but it is chemically not named as an acid because it does not have a carboxyl group. Water is neutral because it acts as an acid and a base. In other words, whether something acts like an acid depends on the pH of the solution it is introduced to. In this case the solution is either your face alone, or your face + CPs.
When you put a lactic or glycolic acid on your face, you want it to act as an acid, it denatures the structural proteins (keratin) and that is how it exfoliates. This is why the strength of the acid you use for exfoliating depends on the pH more than the percentage.
When you put Retin-A on your face you want it to act as a delivery for Vitamin A, not as an exfoliant. But it does irritate the skin with the time. Additionally, retinoic acid is usually delivered with a buffer. A buffer is a substance that counteracts pH changes and maintains pH.
But the question is whether retin-A is strong enough acid by itself to denature the peptide binding the copper ion. Retinoic is by itself a rather weak acid, which means it does not want to give up its proton very much. So my guess would be I doubt it. |
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Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:50 pm |
So based on these two excellent and scientic analysis, should retin A go under or on top of copper 
You gals kick A@@ |
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Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:33 pm |
| SandraG wrote: |
So based on these two excellent and scientic analysis, should retin A go under or on top of copper
You gals kick A@@ |
All I can tell you is that Dr.Pickard says you can do it either way.
Tretinoin on top of copper supposedly pushes copper deeper into the skin.
Copper on top of tretinoin will reduce irritation the tretinoin might cause.
I personally dont mix tretinoin with anything because I am not sure it wont dilute it somehow. But, I only use Renova twice weekly and GHK the other days. |
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Sat Mar 24, 2007 8:02 am |
| I see. Thanks. I may just use the tretenoin on top of the copper. I'll know if the Retin A is not working as effectively, which would irrispectively mean, that it is being broken down. I know Retin A and my skin so well, if it's not working as well, I'll know it and I'll know why. |
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Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:47 am |
| Does CP really work for scars? I'm planning to get the mildest CP. |
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