Is it ok to layer products with Vitamin C?
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free skin care · Mon May 14, 2012 7:21 am

For example, is it ok to use a serum and cream together if they both have Vitamin C if you have sensitive skin? Or is that too much Vitamin C? Can too much cause reactions like redness and irritation etc. or can that only happen with high percentages of Vitamin C? TIA Smile

free skin care · Mon May 14, 2012 9:10 am

egyptiangoddess wrote:

For example, is it ok to use a serum and cream together if they both have Vitamin C if you have sensitive skin? Or is that too much Vitamin C? Can too much cause reactions like redness and irritation etc. or can that only happen with high percentages of Vitamin C? TIA Smile

My advice (depending on the % of C) and assuming it is LAA would be to alternate the two especially with sensitive skin.

There is really no need to overload (I shouldn't talk!) as C stays in the skin for 72 hours. But if you already have both a serum and a cream to use up I think alternating is your best option.
HTH

free skin care · Mon May 14, 2012 9:26 am

DarkMoon wrote:

egyptiangoddess wrote:

For example, is it ok to use a serum and cream together if they both have Vitamin C if you have sensitive skin? Or is that too much Vitamin C? Can too much cause reactions like redness and irritation etc. or can that only happen with high percentages of Vitamin C? TIA Smile

My advice (depending on the % of C) and assuming it is LAA would be to alternate the two especially with sensitive skin.

There is really no need to overload (I shouldn't talk!) as C stays in the skin for 72 hours. But if you already have both a serum and a cream to use up I think alternating is your best option.
HTH

Vit C stays on the skin for 72 hours? If thats the case, should we only be using it every 3 days, would daily then be a waste?

TIA, as you can see I've had too much coffee this morning, my brains actually working Shock

free skin care · Mon May 14, 2012 9:33 am

Tiny wrote:

DarkMoon wrote:

egyptiangoddess wrote:

For example, is it ok to use a serum and cream together if they both have Vitamin C if you have sensitive skin? Or is that too much Vitamin C? Can too much cause reactions like redness and irritation etc. or can that only happen with high percentages of Vitamin C? TIA Smile

My advice (depending on the % of C) and assuming it is LAA would be to alternate the two especially with sensitive skin.

There is really no need to overload (I shouldn't talk!) as C stays in the skin for 72 hours. But if you already have both a serum and a cream to use up I think alternating is your best option.
HTH

Vit C stays on the skin for 72 hours? If thats the case, should we only be using it every 3 days, would daily then be a waste?

TIA, as you can see I've had too much coffee this morning, my brains actually working Shock

It might be a waste but I use it daily, it's better than letting it sit and oxidize! That is JMO! Laughing

free skin care · Mon May 14, 2012 11:02 am

egyptiangoddess wrote:

For example, is it ok to use a serum and cream together if they both have Vitamin C if you have sensitive skin? Or is that too much Vitamin C? Can too much cause reactions like redness and irritation etc. or can that only happen with high percentages of Vitamin C? TIA Smile

Only damage is to your bank account Razz

free skin care · Tue May 15, 2012 6:58 am

LOL circus!

DarkMoon, I didn't know Vitamin C stayed on the skin for 72 hours. Shock

You're full of facts!

There are two forms of Vitamin C in my serum (Ascorbic acid and MAP) and one in the cream (Ascobyl Glucoside.) Probably not very high percentages but I was still worried it could be too much or they might interact etc. I was also going to use them after a salicylic acid cleanser. I wonder if that is bad or not.

free skin care · Tue May 15, 2012 8:00 am

egyptiangoddess wrote:

LOL circus!

DarkMoon, I didn't know Vitamin C stayed on the skin for 72 hours. Shock

You're full of facts!

There are two forms of Vitamin C in my serum (Ascorbic acid and MAP) and one in the cream (Ascobyl Glucoside.) Probably not very high percentages but I was still worried it could be too much or they might interact etc. I was also going to use them after a salicylic acid cleanser. I wonder if that is bad or not.

It is OK to formulate LA and MAP in the same product however MAP requires a much higher pH than LAA if you want it for exfoliating purposes.
MAP tends to oxidize in an acid environment so I think your serum is higher than a typical LAA serum which is normally between 2-3.5 here is the MAP recommendation from LC:

Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate (MAP) may discolor in formulations with a pH below 6, so is best used in products with a final formulation pH between 6.0 - 7.0.
http://www.lotioncrafter.com/magnesium-ascorbyl_phosphate-map.html

Ascorbyl Glucoside(AAG) Same as AA2G is stable at a higher less acidic pH in fo from Bulkactives here:

http://www.bulkactives.com/ascorbylglucoside.htm

Bottom line you can use your serum and cream at the same time, however after salicylic acid I would give your skin about a 10-30 minute wait time to return to a normal pH level.

I hope that helps, and anyone with more information please feel free to correct. Very Happy

free skin care · Tue May 15, 2012 9:26 am

I second DarkMoon's sage advice, but would also like to add that L-AA requires a low pH for absorption, so the issue is wider that simply formulation stability.

free skin care · Tue May 15, 2012 9:43 am

Firefox7275 wrote:

I second DarkMoon's sage advice, but would also like to add that L-AA requires a low pH for absorption, so the issue is wider that simply formulation stability.

Agreed, that is why I personally do not mix MAP and LAA in the same product. One must wonder if manufactures are using MAP in an acidic formulation or LAA in a more alkaline formulation? I do not own any that contain both forms together so can not test pH myself.

free skin care · Wed May 16, 2012 3:46 am

Thank you both! Very Happy

Oh my goodness I was incorrect when I posted! I just realized it contains Ascorbyl Glucoside and MAP. Embarassed

It's a lightening product (not a DIY serum.) This is the ingredients list if it matters:

Water, Propylene Glycol, Dimethicone, Isododecane, Glycerin, Niacinamide, Ascorbyl Glucoside, Triethanolamine, Betaine, Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate, 1-Methylhydantoin-2-Imide, Undecylenoyl Phenylalanine, Palmitoyl Oligopeptide, Palmitoyl Tetrapeptide, Tocopheryl Acetate, Dipotassium Glycyrrhizate, Citrus Medica Limonum Fruit Extract, Cucumis Sativus Fruit Extract, Camellia Oleifera Leaf Extract, Panax Ginseng Root Extract, Thymus Extract, Sanguisorba Root Extract, Morus Alba Bark Extract, Oenothera Biennis Seed Extract, Serine, Threonine, Proline, Arginine, Glycine, Alanine, Lysine, Glutamic Acid, Sodium Pca, Sorbitol, Polysorbate 20, Butylene Glycol, Laurenth-7, C13-14 Isoparaffin, Peg-12 Dimethicone, Polyacrylamide, Boron Nitride, Carbomer, Sodium Citrate, Disodium Edta, Phenoxyethanol, Methylparaben, Ethylparaben, Propylparaben, Butylparaben, Isobutylparaben, Mica, Titanium Dioxide

So does that make a difference then? Is it still not OK to apply that and the cream with Ascorbyl Glucoside together, right after using a Salicylic acid cleanser? (The cleanser only has 0.5% SA)

free skin care · Wed May 16, 2012 6:31 am

egyptiangoddess wrote:

Thank you both! Very Happy

Oh my goodness I was incorrect when I posted! I just realized it contains Ascorbyl Glucoside and MAP. Embarassed

It's a lightening product (not a DIY serum.) This is the ingredients list if it matters:

Water, Propylene Glycol, Dimethicone, Isododecane, Glycerin, Niacinamide, Ascorbyl Glucoside, Triethanolamine, Betaine, Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate, 1-Methylhydantoin-2-Imide, Undecylenoyl Phenylalanine, Palmitoyl Oligopeptide, Palmitoyl Tetrapeptide, Tocopheryl Acetate, Dipotassium Glycyrrhizate, Citrus Medica Limonum Fruit Extract, Cucumis Sativus Fruit Extract, Camellia Oleifera Leaf Extract, Panax Ginseng Root Extract, Thymus Extract, Sanguisorba Root Extract, Morus Alba Bark Extract, Oenothera Biennis Seed Extract, Serine, Threonine, Proline, Arginine, Glycine, Alanine, Lysine, Glutamic Acid, Sodium Pca, Sorbitol, Polysorbate 20, Butylene Glycol, Laurenth-7, C13-14 Isoparaffin, Peg-12 Dimethicone, Polyacrylamide, Boron Nitride, Carbomer, Sodium Citrate, Disodium Edta, Phenoxyethanol, Methylparaben, Ethylparaben, Propylparaben, Butylparaben, Isobutylparaben, Mica, Titanium Dioxide

So does that make a difference then? Is it still not OK to apply that and the cream with Ascorbyl Glucoside together, right after using a Salicylic acid cleanser? (The cleanser only has 0.5% SA)

There is no reason the two C's should conflict, it may well be a waste as your skin can only utilize just so much C at one time.

The pH of your products should be aprox. 6 or so , I am sure your SA cleanser is not too acidic (assuming here) but I would just wait say 10 minutes after washing to apply your C products.

HTH Smile

free skin care · Wed May 16, 2012 7:02 am

egyptiangoddess wrote:

Thank you both! Very Happy

Oh my goodness I was incorrect when I posted! I just realized it contains Ascorbyl Glucoside and MAP. Embarassed

It's a lightening product (not a DIY serum.) This is the ingredients list if it matters:

Water, Propylene Glycol, Dimethicone, Isododecane, Glycerin, Niacinamide, Ascorbyl Glucoside, Triethanolamine, Betaine, Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate, 1-Methylhydantoin-2-Imide, Undecylenoyl Phenylalanine, Palmitoyl Oligopeptide, Palmitoyl Tetrapeptide, Tocopheryl Acetate, Dipotassium Glycyrrhizate, Citrus Medica Limonum Fruit Extract, Cucumis Sativus Fruit Extract, Camellia Oleifera Leaf Extract, Panax Ginseng Root Extract, Thymus Extract, Sanguisorba Root Extract, Morus Alba Bark Extract, Oenothera Biennis Seed Extract, Serine, Threonine, Proline, Arginine, Glycine, Alanine, Lysine, Glutamic Acid, Sodium Pca, Sorbitol, Polysorbate 20, Butylene Glycol, Laurenth-7, C13-14 Isoparaffin, Peg-12 Dimethicone, Polyacrylamide, Boron Nitride, Carbomer, Sodium Citrate, Disodium Edta, Phenoxyethanol, Methylparaben, Ethylparaben, Propylparaben, Butylparaben, Isobutylparaben, Mica, Titanium Dioxide

So does that make a difference then? Is it still not OK to apply that and the cream with Ascorbyl Glucoside together, right after using a Salicylic acid cleanser? (The cleanser only has 0.5% SA)

You may find it helpful to test the pH of each product with pH test strips (AKA litmus paper) or find out by e-mailing the manufacturers. pH of your products is also highly relevant in inducing sensitivity as well as indicating how much of certain ingredients might have been used.

Generally niacinamide is used between 2% and 5% so you have 10% or less of vitamin C in there. MAP apparently stinks after a *relatively* short period (you say this is a commercial product so should have a decent inbuilt shelf life) below pH neutral so either that serum is alkaline or there is little MAP in the serum. IIRC both niacinamide and the AA2G prefer an acid pH which might indicate there is little MAP. The peptides likely have a pH preference but I don't know them off the top of my head. If there is little MAP you may as well layer on another vitamin C cream. But without an actual pH it's all just guessing! Laughing

free skin care · Wed May 16, 2012 7:36 am

Name: Ascorbic Acid 2-Glucoside (AAG2TM)
INCI: Ascorbyl Glucoside
CAS#: 129499-78-1

The stability of Ascorbyl Glucosideis influenced by pH. Please avoid leaving it under prolonged conditions of strong acidity or alkalinity (pH 2-4 and 9-12).

About MAP / Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate

suggested pH: may discolor in pH <6, best when used in emulsion based products at pH between 5.5-7.

From Bulkactives site linked to above.

MAP tends to have a "hot dog" odor when it has gone off usually in an acidic formula.

free skin care · Wed May 16, 2012 8:25 am

Vitamin B3 (Niacinamide USP)
FACT SHEET
Description: Niacinamide is the water-soluble form of niacin, an essential vitamin of the B group, known as vitamin B3. Purity 99-101 %, pH 6-7.5 (5 % water
solution). White powder, practically odorless. Easily soluble in water & ethanol,
soluble in glycerol. CAS# 98-92-0.
INCI Name: Niacinamide.
Properties: Anti-inflammatory activity useful for treating acne, improves appearance of aged, hyperpigmented & photodamaged skin. Has anti-wrinkle properties
& reduces fine lines by stimulating collagen & ceramide synthesis. Improves
functional & structural integrity of the skin barrier.
Use: Add to water phase of formula, usual final concentration 1-6 %. For external
use only.
Application: Acne products, lotions, cream

http://www.makingcosmetics.com/fact-sheets/fact-sheet-niacinamide.pdf

free skin care · Wed May 16, 2012 5:04 pm

vit C serums work best. Once Vit C is put into a cream, most of it's good stuff is pretty much useless.

free skin care · Thu May 17, 2012 4:40 am

BCgirl, that's not true. Not if it's the AA2G form. Regardless, this is a cream I'm just using up. I've got a ton of products to get through! Laughing

And I wanted to make sure that cream wouldn't interact with current serum as I have very sensitive skin and rosacea. Shock

DarkMoon and Firefox, thank you! All of that was really helpful! I really need some PH strips. Shock

Firefox, is that really true about peptides having a PH preference?! I've never heard that before. If you come across any info about that I'd love to read it. I did a search but couldn't find anything.

DarkMoon, so what happens if you wait ten minutes after washing with an SA cleanser? Is your skin acidic after washing and then goes more alkaline afterwards? And the Vitamin C only works on alkaline skin because it has to be acidic/low PH? I'm new to the PH stuff so just trying to figure it out. I mean, what do you want your skins PH to be at for the Vitamin C to be effective? Is that why you should use a PH balanced facial cleanser? Maybe Firefox knows too.

Thanks you two! Very Happy

free skin care · Thu May 17, 2012 5:01 am

egyptiangoddess wrote:

BCgirl, that's not true. Not if it's the AA2G form. Regardless, this is a cream I'm just using up. I've got a ton of products to get through! Laughing

And I wanted to make sure that cream wouldn't interact with current serum as I have very sensitive skin and rosacea. Shock

DarkMoon and Firefox, thank you! All of that was really helpful! I really need some PH strips. Shock

Firefox, is that really true about peptides having a PH preference?! I've never heard that before. If you come across any info about that I'd love to read it. I did a search but couldn't find anything.

DarkMoon, so what happens if you wait ten minutes after washing with an SA cleanser? Is your skin acidic after washing and then goes more alkaline afterwards? And the Vitamin C only works on alkaline skin because it has to be acidic/low PH? I'm new to the PH stuff so just trying to figure it out. I mean, what do you want your skins PH to be at for the Vitamin C to be effective? Is that why you should use a PH balanced facial cleanser? Maybe Firefox knows too.

Thanks you two! Very Happy

Hi EG,

I believe your cream to be in the 6-7 (close to 6 my guesstimate) range for the C's and Niacinamide to be working (and I assume the formulator knew what was what on pH).

pH test strips are great for liquids but you would need to invest in a pH meter to test the cream and that seems unnecessary if you are only using it up!

pH 4.6-5.5 = healthy skin, so a wait time may not be necessary for that but just being cautious give it a few minutes.

If you use LAA it is effective at a much more acid pH 2-3.5 so you would wait a bit longer for your skin to return to normal.

You will find this thread on pH very helpful, I keep it on my watched list! Smile

Info on pH and product application wait times.

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?tid=18360

free skin care · Thu May 17, 2012 5:12 am

Oh thank you so much! That thread is probably just what I needed! Smile

free skin care · Thu May 17, 2012 5:15 am

egyptiangoddess wrote:

Oh thank you so much! That thread is probably just what I needed! Smile

You are welcome EG,

After a while I manage to keep some in my head, but it is great to have at hand for quick reference!

Don't feel that you shouldn't ask questions though! Very Happy

free skin care · Thu May 17, 2012 7:23 am

egyptiangoddess wrote:

And I wanted to make sure that cream wouldn't interact with current serum as I have very sensitive skin and rosacea. Shock

DarkMoon and Firefox, thank you! All of that was really helpful! I really need some PH strips. Shock

Firefox, is that really true about peptides having a PH preference?! I've never heard that before. If you come across any info about that I'd love to read it. I did a search but couldn't find anything.

DarkMoon, so what happens if you wait ten minutes after washing with an SA cleanser? Is your skin acidic after washing and then goes more alkaline afterwards? And the Vitamin C only works on alkaline skin because it has to be acidic/low PH? I'm new to the PH stuff so just trying to figure it out. I mean, what do you want your skins PH to be at for the Vitamin C to be effective? Is that why you should use a PH balanced facial cleanser? Maybe Firefox knows too.

Thanks you two! Very Happy

'pH balanced' often means pH 7 AKA neutral; lower numbers are acidic, higher numbers are alkaline. As DarkMoon says healthy skin is acidic at pH ~5.5. L-AA will only absorb at a much more acidic pH than that: the pH of the carrier product and the skin both play a role. Do bear in mind that the pH scale is logarithmic which means pH 4.5 is ten times more acidic than 5.5 so 7.5 is one hundred (10x10) times more alkaline than 5.5! Shock

Research shows that people with certain skin conditions or with ageing skin often have a skin pH that is NOT within the ideal range, or their skin fails to 'reset' the pH when disturbed. Genetics plays a role here, as does your lifestyle because this affects the specific composition of your sebum and sweat and systemic inflammation. Even if you are able to 'reset' the pH with the next product this does NOT give the same effect as respecting the skin barrier in the first place. It doesn't magically eliminate irritation nor inflammation at the cellular level and does not restore the skin flora.

For those reasons IMO do not rely on wait times for your skin to magically return to normal - it may not do so. Instead choose products that respect and replenish the skin barrier. The article DarkMoon links to is excellent, but must be considered alongside knowledge of the differences between healthy and disordered skin types, or the effect of other products in our routine (Retin-A, topical antibiotics etc).

Peptides are effectively small proteins. Proteins are denatured (their molecular shape is changed) with changes in pH and with temperature - think what happens to an egg when you cook it, or milk when you add vinegar. This may affect the function and may affect their ability to cross the skin barrier. This can be a permanent change or reversible. That is a general comment, proteins are a huge class of molecule (includes enzymes) and some are 'fussier' than others. You should be able to find a ton of info on proteins and pH online.

HTH! Smile

free skin care · Mon May 21, 2012 2:49 am

Thanks DM! I've learned so much here from you all! Smile

Thanks Firefox! So what would be the ideal PH to have your skin at for optimal Vitamin C absorption? Or is it simply more about the Vitamin C product itself having the most appropriate PH?

Would you mind also clarifying something for me? In that "Skinactives has a new Vitamin C product" thread, you said something about how it was bad because the PH was 2 and was akin to lemon juice. Or something along those lines. But isn't the PH of an LAA serum supposed to be at ‹3.5 to be effective? I'm confused.

free skin care · Mon May 21, 2012 7:26 am

egyptiangoddess wrote:

Thanks Firefox! So what would be the ideal PH to have your skin at for optimal Vitamin C absorption? Or is it simply more about the Vitamin C product itself having the most appropriate PH?

Would you mind also clarifying something for me? In that "Skinactives has a new Vitamin C product" thread, you said something about how it was bad because the PH was 2 and was akin to lemon juice. Or something along those lines. But isn't the PH of an LAA serum supposed to be at ‹3.5 to be effective? I'm confused.

There is no one ideal pH for optimum absorption of vitamin C because different forms have different requirements. For skin health you want ~5.5 or maybe a little less. If you are applying an AHA or a product which has a specific acidity requirement for absorption it's key to have your skin below neutral. If you used, say, a traditional soap at pH 9 the residue might neutralise a L-AA serum at pH 3 meaning that it fails to absorb properly.

According to SkinEssentialActives
"LAA has proven to be effective at percentages as low as 5% up to 15%. Over 15% there is minimal measurable benefit to the epidermis. LAA is best absorbed by the dermis at pH 2.8 - 3.2."
http://stores.skinessentialactives.com/Categories.bok
See bottom of page 139 here for the more detailed science
http://www.skinc.com.tw/pdf/C_paper.pdf

If you take the pH too low you can induce irritation, inflammation and damage the skin's barrier function. Remember pH 2 is ten times times more acidic than pH 3, and one hundred times more acidic than pH 4. You can achieve a reservoir effect with a lower percentage and higher pH so what is the point? AFAIK we are all here to have beautiful skin, and L-AA is not the only proven active nor is it even the only proven form of vitamin C.

free skin care · Tue May 22, 2012 5:05 am

Thanks Firefox! Very Happy

Yes, I'm aware that there are other forms of Vitamin C too. I'm using a serum with MAP and AA2G right now. As well as a cream with a bit of AA2G sometimes. I used to use that one primarily though. (And I'm using a lot of other actives as well!) But it's all very interesting to learn about. Especially because Vitamin C is such a great antioxidant and is a lightening active that also stimulates collagen! You can't go wrong throwing that into your anti-aging arsenal! Laughing

It's especially good for those with hyperpigmentation and rosacea.

I enjoy learning about the PH info. Smile

Another form of Vitamin C that I find interesting is "Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate" or "Tetra Vitamin C". Apparently it's a stable form and is soluble in oil.

free skin care · Tue May 22, 2012 8:15 am

egyptiangoddess wrote:

Thanks Firefox! Very Happy

Yes, I'm aware that there are other forms of Vitamin C too. I'm using a serum with MAP and AA2G right now. As well as a cream with a bit of AA2G sometimes. I used to use that one primarily though. (And I'm using a lot of other actives as well!) But it's all very interesting to learn about. Especially because Vitamin C is such a great antioxidant and is a lightening active that also stimulates collagen! You can't go wrong throwing that into your anti-aging arsenal! Laughing

It's especially good for those with hyperpigmentation and rosacea.

I enjoy learning about the PH info. Smile

Another form of Vitamin C that I find interesting is "Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate" or "Tetra Vitamin C". Apparently it's a stable form and is soluble in oil.

EG,

The Tetra C is oil soluble and not pH dependent at all.
It is one of the easiest DIY C's all you do is measure the correct percentage and add it to your oil/s, assuming you are good with using an oil or oil blend! Smile

free skin care · Tue May 22, 2012 9:08 am

Thank you DM. That's why I was interested in it! Easy to DIY with it. Is it Tiny who always says she can't DIY? Maybe she would like this form of Vitamin C too. Very Happy

Yes I am unsure of oils. I've got a long road of testing oils ahead of me. Shock

I read tetra c is also soluble in silicones.

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