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Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:37 am  |
| calorblind wrote: |
i still dont really get it.
do we apply our serum (skinceuticals ferulic or any vit c serum) before we roll? or after? Instructions says apply before and after. But i think before makes more sense since the dermaroller is suppose to "push" these products into the skin |
Applying both before and after is the usual protocol. You've already acknowledged that applying before helps to push the products deeper into the skin. Applying afterward is really for the same reason - since you've just rolled, you'll get better product absorption, and your skin will utilize the higher amounts of actives to help regenerate and repair itself.
Does that help? |
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Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:52 am |
Yeah, great, i'll do it before and after then. Prolly use my Ferulic before and Phloretin after? Hehe. So i guess it's OK to roll during the morning since Ferulic is to be used during the morning? But most of them do it at night before sleep and before their Retin-A?
RIght now, I am putting my ferulic at night after dermarolling, and i put my Retanew(encapsulated Retinol w Matrixyl 3000)from SkinDoctors |
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Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:33 pm |
I have decided to take part in this thread. I did join back in May last year, but I really cannot remember if I made a post here or not...
I am here after reading Erin Leas posts on the Female First stretch mark thread.
I currently only own a 1.5mm roller (never used, bought from the Nova Clinic website). I am still yet to get some Retin A cream (tretinoin), as at the moment all I have is 0.015% in gel form.
I am still trying to find out where I can purchase the products to make my own Vit C spray (I'm in the UK).
I am willing to try a "test" area, just to see what results I get, if any. I am not yet ready to go straight into treating my "major" marks... so would rather try a test patch first.
PQ: you mentioned paying £55 for your roller, can I ask where you bought yours from?
I do believe the Nova rollers would now work out at about £80! I think I paid around £50 for it last year (stupid exchange rate!).
Btw, if anyone here uses the Female First Stretch mark thread, I am the user who goes by the name of bc8. I wanted to use the same name here to avoid confusion, but realised I already made an account last year but with a different username.
Anyway that is all for now  |
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Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:10 pm |
PQ - I wouldn't use Arnica, topically or internally, before rolling OR after rolling. It's basically an anti-inflammatory. You WANT inflammation afterwards--its part of the regeneration process.
With that said, I did my first roll in about 3 months, last night. I used Emla, wrapped my face well, and let it sit for about 45 minutes before wiping off, then wiping my face again with alcohol. I was sooooo numb, I couldn't believe it! I pulled out my 2mm and went to town on my face/neck. Having done about 15 rolls in the past, I've never numbed my skin like this before and I could really dig in. LOTS of blood, and I'm redder today than I've ever been the day after. I intentionally planned a day off from work, and am keeping the windows closed so no UV rays hit my bare skin. I used some Emu oil mixed with Textrahexylecyl C after the roll and this morning. I'm staying away from Retin A after rolling because I'm fearful of the absorbtion into the liver, since I'm a super long term Retin A user. I'm only going to roll about every 3 months now, so I'm going to stick with the 2mm to get the biggest bang for my buck!! Woo HOOOOOO! |
_________________
Vehicle is a 1952 scratch and dent model....olive-ish, dry skin, long curly gray hair. Staples: Tazorac, 2mm Dermaroller, Anti Aging Light Stim, Devita Sunscreens, homemade C serums, some positive affirmations and whatever else it takes! Kicking and screaming the whole way... |
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Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:21 pm |
| calorblind wrote: |
Yeah, great, i'll do it before and after then. Prolly use my Ferulic before and Phloretin after? Hehe. So i guess it's OK to roll during the morning since Ferulic is to be used during the morning? But most of them do it at night before sleep and before their Retin-A?
RIght now, I am putting my ferulic at night after dermarolling, and i put my Retanew(encapsulated Retinol w Matrixyl 3000)from SkinDoctors |
Whether you roll in the AM or PM is just a matter of preference. And, yes, some people do apply retin-a directly afterwards, although I can't do that because my skin is WAY too sensitive after rolling.
I also am one of those who rolls at night. I wait until I have several days of downtime coming up, and the night before, I'll do an intense roll. My skin looks TERRIBLE afterward - I have lots of swelling, redness, some bruising and "needle tracks" (like pinpricks). Then I spend all of my time off sequestered in the house. I'm usually pretty much back to normal by the time I have to resume my regular schedule, but there have been times when I still had a lot of redness and it was very difficult to cover with makeup. It's also a pain in the arse when i want to go run errands, or something, and then I remember that I look like a train wreck and shouldn't be seen in public 
I'm not familiar with those products you mentioned (Ferulic and Phloretin), but if you're using them during a rolling session, the time of day probably doesn't matter. |
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Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:29 pm |
| mountaingirl wrote: |
PQ - I wouldn't use Arnica, topically or internally, before rolling OR after rolling. It's basically an anti-inflammatory. You WANT inflammation afterwards--its part of the regeneration process.
With that said, I did my first roll in about 3 months, last night. I used Emla, wrapped my face well, and let it sit for about 45 minutes before wiping off, then wiping my face again with alcohol. I was sooooo numb, I couldn't believe it! I pulled out my 2mm and went to town on my face/neck. Having done about 15 rolls in the past, I've never numbed my skin like this before and I could really dig in. LOTS of blood, and I'm redder today than I've ever been the day after. I intentionally planned a day off from work, and am keeping the windows closed so no UV rays hit my bare skin. I used some Emu oil mixed with Textrahexylecyl C after the roll and this morning. I'm staying away from Retin A after rolling because I'm fearful of the absorbtion into the liver, since I'm a super long term Retin A user. I'm only going to roll about every 3 months now, so I'm going to stick with the 2mm to get the biggest bang for my buck!! Woo HOOOOOO! |
Impressive, mountaingirl - you're going to get some serious results! 
I don't quite have the nerve to go with a 2mm, but I'm wondering if it might be a good idea since my rolls are also very infrequent. I *intended* to roll in March, but I just haven't had the time (or more accurately, the recovery time, since I can NOT go out in public for several days after a roll ). I actually have a few days off starting tomorrow, with nothing else in my schedule that requires my public presence, so I may finally get around to doing a roll tomorrow. I'll be loading on the Emla like there's no tomorrow.... it's been four months since my last roll (in mid December) so I need to make it count! |
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Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:53 pm |
Hi, I have just been having a browse though the derma-rollers(dot)com website. I found the "My Derma Roller Diary" (stretch marks) ... I was just wondering if anyone else has seen this? is it another one of them "fake" pics/stories. I see so many people posting links to treatments on other forums, but people always come back and say "well they are using the exact same "before and after" photos on another website". Basically, websites stealing other peoples photos... and it's all a load of lies - giving people false hope over their treatment they are supplying.
Looking at the "day 1" and "week 1" photos, there is a major difference, mainly in depth... if I could achieve that with my marks by using a 1.5mm roller I would be OVER THE MOON!
PS: I cannot enter the actualy link to the diary because it wont allow me to post links. |
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Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:01 pm |
Hello Everybody another newbie here I have read this threat with great interest, infact I read al 129 pages twice!!
I bought a derma roller two weeks ago When I finished reading the entire thread the first time and then I read it all again before using the derma roller.
I tried my first roll today face and some areas on my body. I am using a 1mm roller. I felt somewhat  and drained thereafter but ok now and hoping it will be worth it.
I did not use numbing cream and could bare it on my body but not on my face so did the best I could but I doubt it was good enough even though I drew the odd spot of blood on my face only. All areas that I treated are very red now and got somewhat hot with all the bood rushing there.
Like many others on here I am treating stretchmarks mainly but also the gentle onset of skin laxity and some old acne scars on my face.
I really hope that this is all worth it in view of the pain and not another dream ending in disappointment.
In any event it is good to meet you all in this great forum
Elle |
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Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:17 pm |
| Kay2008 wrote: |
Hi, I have just been having a browse though the derma-rollers(dot)com website. I found the "My Derma Roller Diary" (stretch marks) ... I was just wondering if anyone else has seen this? is it another one of them "fake" pics/stories. I see so many people posting links to treatments on other forums, but people always come back and say "well they are using the exact same "before and after" photos on another website". Basically, websites stealing other peoples photos... and it's all a load of lies - giving people false hope over their treatment they are supplying.
Looking at the "day 1" and "week 1" photos, there is a major difference, mainly in depth... if I could achieve that with my marks by using a 1.5mm roller I would be OVER THE MOON!
PS: I cannot enter the actualy link to the diary because it wont allow me to post links. |
Hi Kay, I think you mean the Scientia website, I am also in the UK and this is a UK based company. I got my dermaroller there as it was £49 and it is the Dr. Roller brand.
I also called them and spoke to a chap called Chris who was very informative and helpful. I asked him if the pictures where true and he said they were and he knows the girl in the pic and that the stretchmarks were kinda gone but when you pull on the stomach you could see lines but no stretchmarks if that makes sense.
I wish you good luck with your treatment.
Elle |
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Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:24 pm |
| mountaingirl wrote: |
PQ - I wouldn't use Arnica, topically or internally, before rolling OR after rolling. It's basically an anti-inflammatory. You WANT inflammation afterwards--its part of the regeneration process. |
Thanks for the tip, I suppose we are all different, I am finding with ELMA with Arnica works well, as I have said before I wouldn't damage the skin enough to draw blood, as the supplier in the uk told me this was need required to reduce stretch marks, the results have been great.
I have to say I would never have discovered dermarollering - if EDS hadn't had such a great thread - and the product is working so well.
Thanks everyone again for the tips.
PQ. |
_________________
I am now blogging at Home Beauty Device Reviews. http://homebeautydevice.co.uk |
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Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:29 pm |
| Kay2008 wrote: |
PQ: you mentioned paying £55 for your roller, can I ask where you bought yours from?
I do believe the Nova rollers would now work out at about £80! I think I paid around £50 for it last year (stupid exchange rate!). |
Quote from sale page on this web site.
1 Derma Roller (Lasts approximately 3 months each) @ Sale Price £55 (GBP) RRP £79.99
http://www.derma-rollers.com/order-online/
PQ. |
_________________
I am now blogging at Home Beauty Device Reviews. http://homebeautydevice.co.uk |
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Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:39 pm |
| photoqueen wrote: |
Thanks for the tip, I suppose we are all different, I am finding with ELMA with Arnica works well, as I have said before I wouldn't damage the skin enough to draw blood, as the supplier in the uk told me this was need required to reduce stretch marks, the results have been great.
PQ. |
I'm interested to see if you still have good results in one year, though. When not done properly, these types of treatments can have dramatic reversals in a fairly short time.
It's necessary to penetrate deep enough into the dermis (i.e., you should have some blood) and to NOT hinder the inflammation process in order to get dermal regeneration. Drawing blood is not damaging the skin, by the way - the main mechanism of rolling is creating small, *harmless* puncture wounds that close within a matter of minutes or hours. Thus, not harming the outer layer of skin while still triggering the wound healing cascade (crucial to generating collagen).
That's the beauty of rolling, compared to other "injury" methods... if done properly, you get nice, new collagen that links up with the skin's existing collagen structure, instead of scar collagen. |
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Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:49 pm |
| Kay2008 wrote: |
| I do believe the Nova rollers would now work out at about £80! I think I paid around £50 for it last year (stupid exchange rate!). |
There's a thread devoted to discount dermaroller suppliers: http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=29392
Jack, listed on the first page, and Kaia (page 4 or 5, I think), are probably the most reliable and least expensive suppliers around.
Kaia ships from overseas, but she used to have free worldwide shipping, and her prices are probably the lowest if you're not in the USA. Her website is here:www.dr-roller.eu
Jack's prices and email address are listed right on page one. I have no idea what he charges for international shipping, but it wouldn't hurt to email and ask him for a quote. |
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Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:09 pm |
| Lowbrowscientist wrote: |
| mountaingirl wrote: |
PQ - I wouldn't use Arnica, topically or internally, before rolling OR after rolling. It's basically an anti-inflammatory. You WANT inflammation afterwards--its part of the regeneration process.
With that said, I did my first roll in about 3 months, last night. I used Emla, wrapped my face well, and let it sit for about 45 minutes before wiping off, then wiping my face again with alcohol. I was sooooo numb, I couldn't believe it! I pulled out my 2mm and went to town on my face/neck. Having done about 15 rolls in the past, I've never numbed my skin like this before and I could really dig in. LOTS of blood, and I'm redder today than I've ever been the day after. I intentionally planned a day off from work, and am keeping the windows closed so no UV rays hit my bare skin. I used some Emu oil mixed with Textrahexylecyl C after the roll and this morning. I'm staying away from Retin A after rolling because I'm fearful of the absorbtion into the liver, since I'm a super long term Retin A user. I'm only going to roll about every 3 months now, so I'm going to stick with the 2mm to get the biggest bang for my buck!! Woo HOOOOOO! |
Impressive, mountaingirl - you're going to get some serious results!
I don't quite have the nerve to go with a 2mm, but I'm wondering if it might be a good idea since my rolls are also very infrequent. I *intended* to roll in March, but I just haven't had the time (or more accurately, the recovery time, since I can NOT go out in public for several days after a roll ). I actually have a few days off starting tomorrow, with nothing else in my schedule that requires my public presence, so I may finally get around to doing a roll tomorrow. I'll be loading on the Emla like there's no tomorrow.... it's been four months since my last roll (in mid December) so I need to make it count! |
WOW mg- you've rolled 15 times and are STILL not satisified??? are you saying you didn't roll deeply enough to induce the collagen "cascade"? or were you simply rolling for product penetration? NOw i'm confused because the inventing Docs say if you have not seen the results you want by 4-6 rolls then you are not going to see results...
how long have you been rolling and are you happy w/ any of the results? are you rolling for scars or wrinkles or both --
Lowbrowscientist i'm sure you've read that 1.5m is where the healing takes place and after that your asking for trouble...
maybe i'm just chicken...the devil you know (ya, know) |
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Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:22 pm |
| Moongoddess....I started rolling almost a year and a half ago. At first I rolled once a week with a 1mm, then switched to a 1.5mm, once every two weeks and did that for about 8 months. I really believe that was TOO much!!!! and it did not produce the results because I stayed in the inflammation stage, never giving myself enough healing time inbetween. I'm am always compulsive and an over-doer, so I've paced myself in the last 6 months and only rolled 3 times. No, I haven't had the results yet that I think are possible, particularly around my upper lip lines. The Emla I used last night, numbed my face so completely, I could have driven a knife through my skin!!!! When I picked up my 1.5mm, I couldn't get a single blood spot and it seemed to barely penetrate. It might be dull and I may need a new one. The 2mm definitely dug in. It was by far the best roll I've ever done, and I can thank the Emla for that. |
_________________
Vehicle is a 1952 scratch and dent model....olive-ish, dry skin, long curly gray hair. Staples: Tazorac, 2mm Dermaroller, Anti Aging Light Stim, Devita Sunscreens, homemade C serums, some positive affirmations and whatever else it takes! Kicking and screaming the whole way... |
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Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:53 pm |
| moongoddess wrote: |
| WOW mg- you've rolled 15 times and are STILL not satisified??? |
Mountaingirl was one of the earliest rollers - one of those who started with once weekly and realized later that it was NOT optimal. That's why I always roll my eyes when new rollers who haven't read very much start off with an over-zealous treatment plan without heeding the advice of people who've been there and done that.
| Quote: |
Lowbrowscientist i'm sure you've read that 1.5m is where the healing takes place and after that your asking for trouble...
maybe i'm just chicken...the devil you know (ya, know) |
No, I did not read that..?
The inventors used the 2mm (among other lengths) in their clinical rolls. As long as you're very careful about disinfecting, and scheduling the sessions far enough apart, 2mm is fine. Another roller from back in the day (I think her screenname was Polka something) had excellent results rolling with a 2mm every 8 weeks. That would actually be too often for me, but she did medical grade rolls with plenty of rest time in between and her results were among the best reported.
I do think it's more than most people need for facial skin, if that's what you mean.
ETA: the mm length of the needles on your roller is NOT the exact depth of penetration you're getting. (for instance, a 1mm is going to penetrate about 0.75mm into the skin) I used to have a chart somewhere... if I can find it, I'll post it. But, anywhere from 0.75mm to 2mm is the depth you want for collagen induction. |
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Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:15 pm |
| photoqueen wrote: |
| Ella's Mommy wrote: |
| is ELMA better than the climax spray? |
I couldn't find the climax spray locally, so used google and found EMLA, it is a medically approved local anaesthetic - it takes about 30 minutes to numb the area, you only need a very thin layer of the cream, so my tube which costs me £3.00, should last me a month.
Once on I can't feel a thing, the main stretch mark I have been working on which is 20 years old, has gone, no sign, just smooth skin, I am delighted, it was on my lower inside of my arm. Get those t-shirts out! |
was there anything special that u did? |
_________________
~loving my Ella |
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Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:18 pm |
| Kay2008 wrote: |
Hi, I have just been having a browse though the derma-rollers(dot)com website. I found the "My Derma Roller Diary" (stretch marks) ... I was just wondering if anyone else has seen this? is it another one of them "fake" pics/stories. I see so many people posting links to treatments on other forums, but people always come back and say "well they are using the exact same "before and after" photos on another website". Basically, websites stealing other peoples photos... and it's all a load of lies - giving people false hope over their treatment they are supplying.
Looking at the "day 1" and "week 1" photos, there is a major difference, mainly in depth... if I could achieve that with my marks by using a 1.5mm roller I would be OVER THE MOON!
PS: I cannot enter the actualy link to the diary because it wont allow me to post links. |
you can't post any links because you haven't been on the tread long enough.. but i know exactly what link you are talking about... that's what made me buy one |
_________________
~loving my Ella |
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Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:38 pm |
| moongoddess wrote: |
| NOw i'm confused because the inventing Docs say if you have not seen the results you want by 4-6 rolls then you are not going to see results... |
One thing I meant to say earlier is that this statement above was made in reference to medical treatments done in a clinic -- performed with much more intensity, and in many cases, with longer needles. Dr. Fernandez was using 3mm needles, and Dr Liebl used a mixture of lengths that included 2mm.
The vast majority of home users will not be able to do quite as intense a roll, especially around the mouth area, because while docs are using a combo of nerve blockers and topical anesthetics, all we have are the anesthetics. And in addition to shorter needle lengths, a lot of people are also mixing and matching with their own actives; some of which are not the same as what the inventors used, or the same strengths. Using their specific protocol went a long way toward getting *those* particular results. If we're altering the protocol, it's a toss up whether or not we'll see anything that dramatic (and since not *everyone* responds the same way, some people may not get that anyway).
Bottom line, it is very possible that we'll need to do double (give or take) the amount of home treatments to see results similar to a treatment done in a clinic. I think it's possible to get those results, but it will take us longer at home, and we need to be diligent about following the protocol to increase our chances of success. |
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Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:04 am |
| For some reasons, I also thought or read somewhere you're not supposed to use needles longer than 1.5mm. |
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Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:12 am |
[quote="Lowbrowscientist"][quote="photoqueen"] Thanks for the tip, I suppose we are all different, I am finding with ELMA with Arnica works well, as I have said before I wouldn't damage the skin enough to draw blood, as the supplier in the uk told me this was need required to reduce stretch marks, the results have been great.
PQ.[/quote]
I'm interested to see if you still have good results in one year, though. When not done properly, these types of treatments can have dramatic reversals in a fairly short time.
It's necessary to penetrate deep enough into the dermis (i.e., you should have some blood) and to NOT hinder the inflammation process in order to get dermal regeneration. Drawing blood is not damaging the skin, by the way - the main mechanism of rolling is creating small, *harmless* puncture wounds that close within a matter of minutes or hours. Thus, not harming the outer layer of skin while still triggering the wound healing cascade (crucial to generating collagen).
That's the beauty of rolling, compared to other "injury" methods... if done properly, you get nice, new collagen that links up with the skin's existing collagen structure, instead of scar collagen.[/quote]
I suppose I am just waiting for the phone to ring with a the offer of a new show - and don't want to turn up for the audition looking like something out of Thriller.
PQ. |
_________________
I am now blogging at Home Beauty Device Reviews. http://homebeautydevice.co.uk |
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Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:22 am |
[quote="Lowbrowscientist"][quote="photoqueen"] Thanks for the tip, I suppose we are all different, I am finding with ELMA with Arnica works well, as I have said before I wouldn't damage the skin enough to draw blood, as the supplier in the uk told me this was need required to reduce stretch marks, the results have been great.
PQ.[/quote]
I'm interested to see if you still have good results in one year, though. When not done properly, these types of treatments can have dramatic reversals in a fairly short time.
It's necessary to penetrate deep enough into the dermis (i.e., you should have some blood) and to NOT hinder the inflammation process in order to get dermal regeneration. Drawing blood is not damaging the skin, by the way - the main mechanism of rolling is creating small, *harmless* puncture wounds that close within a matter of minutes or hours. Thus, not harming the outer layer of skin while still triggering the wound healing cascade (crucial to generating collagen).
That's the beauty of rolling, compared to other "injury" methods... if done properly, you get nice, new collagen that links up with the skin's existing collagen structure, instead of scar collagen.[/quote]
I am using a Scientia Derma Roller - I was told there are two methods of use - using the device heavyly once a week or lightly 4 times a week neither method should EVER draw blood, I have checked again today with customer services and they told me not to draw blood.
The Scientia Derma Roller has been approved by the FDA and the National Health Service and the advice is available in a video format.
I am following these instructions.
http://www.derma-rollers.com/35/scientia-derma-roller-instructions/
PQ. |
_________________
I am now blogging at Home Beauty Device Reviews. http://homebeautydevice.co.uk |
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Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:22 am |
| photoqueen wrote: |
I suppose I am just waiting for the phone to ring with a the offer of a new show - and don't want to turn up for the audition looking like something out of Thriller.
PQ. |
 .. That makes sense! Doing shallow rolls helps to thicken the epidermis, at least, which does help cosmetically. It just requires some more upkeep to maintain. On the other hand, if you can get a few days off to hide out and recover, the more intense rolls can be done far less frequently. Finding those few days can be very hard, though |
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Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:38 am |
| photoqueen wrote: |
I am using a Scientia Derma Roller - I was told there are two methods of use - using the device heavyly once a week or lightly 4 times a week neither method should EVER draw blood, I have checked again today with customer services and they told me not to draw blood.
The Scientia Derma Roller has been approved by the FDA and the National Health Service and the advice is available in a video format.
I am following these instructions.
http://www.derma-rollers.com/35/scientia-derma-roller-instructions/
PQ. |
I can't recall - were you using the shorter needles? 0.25mm or less? That schedule could apply to the shorter lengths.
Somewhere around page 75 or so of this thread, we had a pretty lengthy discussion about instructions like these... they are in complete conflict with what the inventors recommend. Eventually we concluded that it was in our best interest to ignore the instructions of the manufacturers, because their biggest goal is to sell rollers. The inventing docs, on the other hand, are making nothing from the sale of those rollers (and Dr Liebl quite vehemently insists that they should not be used in the home at all, and that people should only have this treatment done by a pro), and it's their protocol, not the manufacturers, that are getting the results in the before and after photos.
Of course, it is a matter of personal choice whose instructions you decide to follow, but I tend to lean on the side of the research, and all the research points to intense, infrequent rolls being the way to go for collagen induction (which is what you'd want for scars/stretchmarks). Just about every long-term roller who chose to do otherwise recanted after a period of several months, because what initially looked like success ended up reversing itself and eventually looking worse, in some cases.
Just be cautious if you're going to trust their advice over the inventors', and watch carefully for signs of trouble. And, keep reporting back with your results, good or bad, because inquiring minds want to know  |
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Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:07 am |
| Bira wrote: |
| For some reasons, I also thought or read somewhere you're not supposed to use needles longer than 1.5mm. |
One of the manufacturers' websites has some other doctor on their site who says that certain lengths are overkill (I think he was specifically referring to 3mm, and for home use, I happen to agree with him). He also claims that the standard needle lengths, like 0.15, 0.25, 1mm, 1.5mm, etc, are no good, and that you should buy the "odd" lengths offered on THAT website (i.e., for that manufacturer) because it penetrated the skin at more optimal lengths. He has a lot to gain by getting you to accept those claims, of course.
So, again, this is information that should be taken with a large pinch of salt. You're welcome to take his advice if you want to, but do keep in mind that Drs Fernandes and Liebl are the ones getting the impressive, dramatic results and they did so using the standard length needles... some of which were in the 2mm and 3mm range.
I do believe that for home use, 2mm is more than most people need, and 3mm is just complete overkill, but we'd all do well to maintain a healthy skepticism about claims made on the various manufacturers' websites. |
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