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Thu Apr 22, 2004 7:08 am  |
I've had a look round their site Avotox.com
and I'm always a sucker for new things but have you heard or tried this botox in a jar product? |
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Wed May 05, 2004 8:45 am |
| Haven't tried the Avotox. I have tried DDF's Wrinkle Release (Faux-Tox) and Seattle Skin's 3R Argeriline Serum. I am using Relax-A-Line (www.cellularskinrx.com) now. It works really well. It's a serum and just a drop at corner of each eye (for crow's feet) and a drop between eyebrows seems to do a great job. I have been using for about two months now and my friends tell me that my frown lines are barely noticeable now. Seems that the effect becomes more noticeable over time. For $36 bucks, it was a no-brainer for me. |
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joyce
New Member
 
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 5
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Fri May 21, 2004 5:43 am |
| I tried Avotox; took about three weeks, am happy, it really works. |
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Fri May 21, 2004 9:46 pm |
Hi Betterat40,
How did you come across with thewww.cellularskinrx.com site. I checked out the website. It looked impressive.
Rose |
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Fri May 21, 2004 10:25 pm |
| Rose, I live in Austin and my neighborhood paper had an article on it. I checked out the site and liked what I saw. In Austin, we are really into supporting the locally owned businesses. After trying the products and noting the prices decided they were worth supporting and recommending. |
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joyce
New Member
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 5
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Sat May 22, 2004 9:12 am |
"It doesn't work".
Joyce |
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Mon May 24, 2004 3:30 am |
| Reading more in to this stuff I've seen that Desert Essence has an eye cream which has the magic ingredient, I'll try it for a month and see what happens. |
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Mon May 24, 2004 7:34 am |
| Eve, there are lots of them out there, too. Besides the Dessert Essence, I have seen one called Bioque, Biotoc, Firma-Taux, etc. The thing is to make sure you get the Acetyl Hexapeptide in a 10% concentration. Otherwise it won't work. I'm not sure why Joyce had problems with Relax-a-Line. It has worked really well for me. Guess everyone's skin is different. Good luck! |
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joyce
New Member
Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 5
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Tue May 25, 2004 5:59 am |
Sounds like you guys have not tried Avotox; works better.
joyce |
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Tue May 25, 2004 7:44 am |
| thanks all. |
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Sat May 29, 2004 9:28 pm |
I live in Austin also and work with an Austin company that has a product called Esthers Secret. It's a system with a lifting masque and a serum. Both the masque and the serum have Argireline, but the serum has it at the 10% concentration.
We introduced it at the International Estheticians Convention and Trade Show in Las Vegas in May and got tremendous response from the Estheticians.
It has worked great for me and others who've tried it. It's only been out about 3 months, but is doing great!
JUDY |
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Looking young never grows old! |
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Sun May 30, 2004 7:25 pm |
| That's great, Judy! Do they "grow" argeriline in Texas? Ha, ha, ha...I'm just glad that we have easy access to the acetyl hexapeptide products here in good old Austin. With all the sun and all, we can sure use the help to keep the wrinkles away. I use Relax-A-line serum for the crow's feet and frown lines. What's the masque do that you were talking about? What's in it? |
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Sun May 30, 2004 8:37 pm |
Betterat40 says:
That's great, Judy! Do they "grow" argeriline in Texas? Ha, ha, ha...
Nope, it is patented by a company in Sunny Spain. 
<<What's the masque do that you were talking about? What's in it?
The System I used is called Esthers Secret. It's a lifting masque that gives an instant lift and is used 3 to 4 times a week for the first 90 days. The serum is used twice daily. Both the masque and the serum contain Argireline and in the serum it is at the 10% concentration.
You get an immediate result on lift from the masque and an immediate result on wrinkles from the serum. Then as you continue using it, you get a cumulative effect.
Other ingredients in the masque are: aloe barbadensis gel (which is kinda the "Rolls Royce" of aloe)
Acacia, grapeseed and green tea extracts, cucumber extract, echinacea extract, allantoin and Vitamins E, D3 and A
In the serum: aloe barbadensis gel, hyaluronic acid, glucosaminoglycans, and all the other anti-oxidants contained in the masque.
The system with the two products doesn't cost any more than some serums alone that I've seen.
JUDY
Looking Young Never Grows Old! |
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Fri Jun 04, 2004 6:16 am |
Hi
ive just joined this site. could you tell me a bit more about the relax-a. does this really work. i am just trying the Avotox at the moment and have been using it for one week only. maybe i am too impatient as i have not noticed any difference as yet. has anyone else used Avotox? |
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Sally |
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Fri Jun 04, 2004 6:41 am |
| Welcome to the Board! I have not used Avotox. I used DDF's Wrinkle Release and Seattle Skincare's 3R Serum before settling on the Relax-A-Line fromwww.CellularSkinRx.com. I like the Relaxaline because it contains the 10% concentration of acetyl hexapeptide 3 that is necessary to relax your facial muscles. The way it works is the acetyl hexapeptide interferes with something called the SNARE complex - by limiting release of catecholamines that are necessary for nerve signals to tell muscles to contract. The result is that those muscles cannot contract so intensely and thus, any lines created by those contractions are reduced in depth over time. There is a nice paper in the International Journal of Cosmetic Surgery that reports on a very small clinical study done with acetyl hexapeptide that showed this effect is measureable. I have had Botox twice and had awful headaches post-injection. I am so glad that I found the Relaxaline. I have been using it for probably 2 mos. or more now and my crow's feet and frown lines are very faint now. I cannot remember how long it took to see visible results. I know my crow's feet seemed to disappear almost immediately ---seemed like the frown line (the GROOVE) took much longer. Maybe it is a bigger, stronger muscle? Anyhow, the effect of acetyl hexapeptide is an additive one - so given enough time, the results will get better. Maybe you should check the ingredients on your avtx and then just continue to use it. Probably a week wasn't long enough? |
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Sat Jun 05, 2004 12:03 am |
What I've found is that it's hard to see the wrinkle reduction with the naked eye because it's so gradual. However, if the serum/cream contains Argireline at the 10% concentration, there are clinical trials to back up their claim of 17% reduction of fine lines and wrinkles in 15 days and 27% in 30 days. They used special camera equipment to measure that change.
I've also seen pictures taken with a digital camera under strong lighting that has shown immediate reduction in the appearance of wrinkles, but you might still not be able to see the same thing just with the eye.
JUDY 
| salster68 wrote: |
Hi
ive just joined this site. could you tell me a bit more about the relax-a. does this really work. i am just trying the Avotox at the moment and have been using it for one week only. maybe i am too impatient as i have not noticed any difference as yet. has anyone else used Avotox? |
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Looking young never grows old! |
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Sat Jun 05, 2004 2:16 am |
| thanks Judy and Peace for your help. the Avotox does contain 10% concentration of acetyl hexapeptide 3. i guess i will have to be a bit more patient. it seems to make my skin look better when put it on but once i put make up over the top the lines around my eyes dont seem to look very good. my skin is also dehydrated. do you know if the 10% concentration of acetyl hexapeptide 3 can dehydrate my skin more. i am also using Environ products (C boost and Debut containing vitamin A). does anybody else have any better ideas to help me improve my skin. thank you all for your help. its really great to have found this site - everyone seems real friendly and helpful |
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Sally |
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Sat Jun 05, 2004 9:04 am |
Hello, Salster,
I think you should apply your moisturizer around your eyes first, then put your Avotox on....This is what I do with my Relax-A-Line and I don't have any problems with dryness. The CellularSkinRx people told me that it doesn't matter if the serum is over or under moisturizer, the amino-peptide will still work. So, maybe that will help. Only other thing I can say is that I know the Avotox has an acrylic copolyamide?sp? ingredient in it which helps tighten up your skin but can be drying....The people at MakeUpAlley told me about that one. So, good luck - one thing you can be sure of = that acetyl hexapeptide works! |
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Sat Jun 05, 2004 3:26 pm |
Sally....
 I think there are other factors to consider to know if a product containing acetyl hexapeptide-3 is drying or not. First, just to be sure you're getting the version of acetyl hexapeptide-3 that the clinical trials were done on, you need to look for 10% Argireline. That's the patented name for the form of ah-3 (I'm abbreviating) that has clinical trials. If the bottle contains the actual Argireline, which is backed by clinical trials, why wouldn't they put that on the bottle? It makes me wonder if some companies are using something similar, but not quite the same and that's why their bottle doesn't identify with Argireline specifically. I really don't know, but it makes me wonder.
In the clinical trials, not only did Argireline reduce fine lines and wrinkles by specific percentages within 30 days, it also showed a 42% IMPROVEMENT IN DRYNESS. So, if you're getting the real thing, it certainly shouldn't be drying your skin.
A quote from the Journal of Longevity: "According to beauty advisers in the know, the best bet is to go for a formula that has the optimum concentration (around the 10 per cent mark) and look for other, more traditional wrinkle-fighting ingredients like antioxidants (Vitamins A, C, and E) in the mix, and few to no irritants like SD alcohol."
So, the other ingredients in the product are important as well. The Esthers Secret Serum that I use contains 10% Argireline, hyaluronic acid (great for moisture), Vitamins E, D-3, and A as well as grapeseed extract and green tea extract, echinacea, cucumber extract, allantoin, and stabilized Aloe Barbadensis gel; and contains NO fragrances or dyes. That's lots of anti-oxidants and moisture retaining ingredients with no irritants. 
Another quote that's important is this:
When choosing a personal skincare tool that is designed to perform a specific function (such as firming skin in the eye area), Dr. Patricia Farris of Tulane University School of Medicine advises: “The active ingredient must be stabilized, delivered to the skin at a therapeutic concentration, and remain in the skin long enough to exert its biochemical effects. Only when these conditions are met can real benefits be seen” (American Academy of Dermatology 2002).
Aloe Barbardensis Gel is like the rolls royce of aloe.  It has the smallest molecule of any aloe on the market. Aloe is an excellent "carrier". It penetrates deep into the skin and carries other nourishing ingredients with it that don't have the ability in themselves to penetrate as well. It's like you can have all the great ingredients you want, but it they can't get to the cells, they can't really have a biochemical or therapeutic effect.
When I read these quotes, I'm really glad I have this particular product. This afternoon, I used the facelift masque that has some of those same ingredients and then used the serum. Right now, my face feels wonderfully smooth, moist, lifted and many fine lines and wrinkles are not showing up like they did before. So, looks like it's doing the job it's supposed to.
I absolutely love having a product that performs the way it claims it will.  So often, I've been disappointed. 
JUDY
Looking Young Never Grows Old!  |
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Sat Jun 05, 2004 3:38 pm |
"I think you should apply your moisturizer around your eyes first, then put your Avotox on. The CellularSkinRx people told me that it doesn't matter if the serum is over or under moisturizer, the amino-peptide will still work."
Now, I have a little problem with that. It just doesn't make sense to me. Don't most of the instructions that we see on serums tell us to put the serum on first, let it penetrate and then put the moisturizer on. I always thought the purpose of a moisturizer was to sit on top of the skin and lock in moisture. If that's true, then how could the serum penetrate properly.
I'm not questioning you Betterat40  But, somehow that advice sounds to me like something a salesperson says when they don't have the answer to your question. You know how sometimes you get these young girls with perfect skin advising you and they'll say whatever? Maybe my suspicions are unjustified, but I'm not sure about that one.  Why not just get a product that has the proper moisturizing ingredients and none of the drying ingredients in the first place?
JUDY |
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Looking young never grows old! |
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Sat Jun 05, 2004 4:17 pm |
Hey, Judy,
The Relax-A-Line I use has hyaluronic acid in it and seaweed extract for moisturizing. I don't find that it has any drying effect at all. But I have combo skin, too. I'm not that familiar with avotox so I can't speak to that at all. Since I do have the combo skin, I'm really glad that this serum is so light. I use it on my forehead - and I don't want to breakout there. Btw, argeriline is the trade name for acetyl hexapeptide but it's not patented. That's why you see acetyl hexapeptide instead of argeriline on many products. So, about the Revive....can you post the link? Sounds nice. |
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Sat Jun 05, 2004 6:27 pm |
I had to go back and read the thread of our comments on this. LOL Wanted to be sure I wasn't confusing your comments with Sally's.
Better... I wasn't responding so much to your saying "you" were having problems with drying as I was to the comment made by the person at Cellular RX. Just wanted to clear that up 
I have combo skin too and I have to really watch my forehead and keep it from getting too oily during the day.
I'm glad you pointed that out about Argireline (patent?). I've been trying to sort all that out and it's just a little puzzling. Maybe you can help me understand it. I hate to talk about something unless I understand all the details. Someone had told me it was patented. Help me sort this out, please. Argireline has a registered trademark. So, that means that Centerchem got a US trademark for that name for the acetyl hexapeptide-3 that THEY sell. Other companies can sell acetyl hexapeptide-3, but not under the name Argireline. Right? I wonder if all companies process the acetyl hexapeptide-3 in exactly the same way? I do know that Centerchem prides themselves on only selling ingredients that they have clinically tested. And, I was told that they are the only company that has done the clinical testing. My question is, let's say company A sells acetyl hexapeptide-3. Is theirs exactly the same as Centerchem's Argireline? Can the other companies legally quote and claim the results of the Centerchem clinical trials? And would all acetyl hexapeptide-3 produce the specific percentages claimed in the trials?
Anyway, now back to the skincare. As I said, I have to be very careful that my forehead doesn't get too oily and it has a tendency to have those little bitty bumps that are like under the skin? I think it may be the Nourish that I use in the morning or the Replinish that I use at night. I wonder if I should not put anything on my forehead... or if I should put the various creams less often than every morning and every night. I've got to experiment a little with that and find the answer. Both creams are referred to as being very "active".
On the Revive eye cream, the ingredient list is pretty impressive. I won't name all, but it has shea butter, jojoba oil, soy peptides, ceramide 1, 3 and 6, Hawaiian seaweed, hyaluronic acid, borage oil, Vitamin K, green and white tea extracts and then a whole list of herbs. When you order from them, they automatically give you a website. I think it's some kind of referral reward, don't know for sure. I know they've said that if you go to their main website and order, you pay a little more than if a customer refers you. I don't think anyone has ever ordered from my site. The company is called NutritionForTheSkin (she likes to use what she calls "clean" ingredients.) Don't know if that means no synthetics, but I know on the ingredient list there are some "ides" and doesn't that usually mean it's some kind of synthetic? At the site, you click first on "shop" to see prices. It's a little confusing. They have some kind of deal where you become a Preferred Customer and can win prizes, but you have to pay $50 to join,  so just click on the other button, says something like "not right now, take me to the catalog". I checked out clicking on both buttons and the price on products is the same either way. Here's the link: http://www.nutritionfortheskin.com/judymarshall
I found out about them through my Longevity and Weight Loss Physician. I use their foaming cleanser, toner for combo skin, Nourish in the morning and Replenish at night and the Revive Eye Cream. I've liked the products very much mostly. On all my skin except my forehead, they give a really soft, creamy feel. But, as I said, I'm having a little problem with the forehead and have to do some experimenting with not using the creams there to see if it goes away. When I first started using them, they seemed to even out my combo skin, but I've been using them for about 3 months now and I'm having that extreme oilyness on the forehead. I called her office once and they suggested that I mix the Nourish and Replenish with their Hydrate to dilute them. But I don't think that's working.
I really didn't mean for this to go on and on and on, but I hate to give partial explanations because it might not be clear.
While I'm asking questions, this is really off-topic, but some of you are more experienced with the mechanics of posting here than I am. When I click on "reply" on other forum, the mail form that comes up usually has the subject already filled in, line re: xxxxx. You have to erase and change it if you want something different. Here, it's blank, so I have been typing in what I remember of the subject. Is it done so you can type any subject line you want, but it will still appear in the same thread? If you clicked on "post new message" it would start a whole new thread, right?
OK, I'm signing off now. That's MORE THAN ENOUGH rambling for one post.
JUDY |
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Looking young never grows old! |
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Sat Jun 05, 2004 6:50 pm |
Wow, Judy! You do go on (think Scarlett O'Hara voice). Just kidding. 
I'm glad you are thorough. I can only answer a little bit of your Argeriline question. Although trademarked/copyrighted protection may be registered for the name through Centerchem - unless they actually patented in the US, other companies could buy the acetyl Hexapeptide from them and then list it as acetyl hexapeptide on their ingredient list. They aren't required to use the trade name. (Unless Centerchem made that a condition for buying which would be a pretty significant obstacle to sales...) However, if they were trying to do an "Intel Inside" type of marketing push, they would require that Argeriline, the trade name be used everywhere. Without a US patent though....given that this is a synthesized amino-peptide, I'm sure there have been other companies that have figured out how to make it. Now, you have me wondering about it....I think I will have to do a bit of patent law research...should be easy enough here in Idea City. |
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Sat Jun 05, 2004 8:41 pm |
I would think that ah-3 itself isn't patentable (if that's a word), so most likely Centerchem did clinical trials, and trademarked the name Argireline. I was reading on Legalzoom and they state a reason for trademarking your product is to keep inferior products from hurting your product reputation. I suspect in this case that any ah-3 is pretty much the same, but when you see Argireline you know it's been held to certain standards. That's all just a guess from logic.
In a way, the same would be true of Botox. They couldn't patent botullinim toxin type A, but they had to do clinical trials to get FDA approval for the claims that it would reduce wrinkles. ah-3 isn't a drug, so it didn't do it for FDA approval, but most likely they had to do the clinical trials to make their claims or FTC or someone might slap a suit on them. Not sure how all that works. It will be interesting to see if Centerchem at some point ever trys to take legal action against other ah-3 making those claims because they don't have clinical trials. Lot's of legal maneuvering in all that stuff. And a lot of it is about marketing. There are probably companies other than Allergan that produce botullinim toxin type A, but with all the advertising, all of them are referred to as Botox. Again, just a guess. I know the rules may be different for Botox because it's approved as a drug and naturally is supposed to be administered only by Physicians. I read something tonight though that says that in some cases salons and spas are doing the injections and naturally FDA is upset about that.
Also, remember when Allergan (Botox) threatened to sue the company that was calling their product Fautox? And they had to change the name to Wrinkle Relex or something. There are so many of them out there now with names sounding like Botox, I think they've given up.
Oh well, I'm getting bored with this subject. I'd rather talk about something fun like lipstick.
JUDY |
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Looking young never grows old! |
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BarbB
New Member
Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 2
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Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:33 pm |
Betterat40,
I was just over at Makeupalley AFTER I put in an order for AVOTOX. I thought I'd get a product review.....nothing like putting the cart before the horse. Anyway, AVOTOX was recommended to me by my daughter, but after reading some opinions at "Alley" I called and canceled my order. Seems there's an ingredient called polyacrylamide which raised some red flags among the members. Guess this ingredient is used in nail polish and although it's been approved by the FDA those who researched this product felt that it's only safe if in a gel form and since it's like pulling teeth to get manufacturers to tell how an ingredient is used they've opted to use something that doesn't contain this. Consensus was that there are other products cheaper and safer.
Just thought I'd pass this on.
BarbB |
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