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Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:08 pm  |
| I am a "beauty advisor"but most of the training I get is from the companies of the lines that I sell so I always feels as though I do not get the full details so I do research myself and have learned alot on this board! The question I have is, does the continued use of glycolic acid creams thin the skin? Sames goes for Retinol. Neostrata has a cream with a 10% glycolic acid concentration that is time released and I was just wondering if this is okay to use everyday for many years? Has anyone had experience with this? |
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Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:59 pm |
| Jenw, if you PM me with your email address, I can send you a study I recently read that focused on longer term usage of glycolics, Retin-A, etc. and steps that must be taken to repair the skin barrier after using these products. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:39 am |
| bethany wrote: |
| Jenw, if you PM me with your email address, I can send you a study I recently read that focused on longer term usage of glycolics, Retin-A, etc. and steps that must be taken to repair the skin barrier after using these products. |
bethany, would you tell us all a summary of this study? main points? |
_________________
31, combo - oily, breakout-prone, fair complexion, sensitive and prone to rosacea |
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Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:40 am |
Retinoids and glycolic acid do thin the outer layers of the skin, stratum corneum, but supposedly these actives thicken the deeper layers of the skin by stimulating collagen synthesis, which erase fine wrinkles and promote a younger appearance.
Agents like niacinamide, ceramides and fatty acids may strengthen the skin barrier and counteract some of the thinning effect of the acids. |
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Female, 40, Norway. Normal/dry skin, starting to see signs of aging. Staples: Glycolic acid cleanser, SkinCeuticals Phloretin CF, Revaleskin, NIA24. |
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Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:42 am |
| Septembergirl wrote: |
Retinoids and glycolic acid do thin the outer layers of the skin, stratum corneum, but supposedly these actives thicken the deeper layers of the skin by stimulating collagen synthesis, which erase fine wrinkles and promote a younger appearance.
Agents like niacinamide, ceramides and fatty acids may strengthen the skin barrier and counteract some of the thinning effect of the acids. |
I have never heard that acids stimulate collagen production the way Retin-A does  |
_________________
31, combo - oily, breakout-prone, fair complexion, sensitive and prone to rosacea |
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Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:25 am |
| Aiva wrote: |
| Septembergirl wrote: |
Retinoids and glycolic acid do thin the outer layers of the skin, stratum corneum, but supposedly these actives thicken the deeper layers of the skin by stimulating collagen synthesis, which erase fine wrinkles and promote a younger appearance.
Agents like niacinamide, ceramides and fatty acids may strengthen the skin barrier and counteract some of the thinning effect of the acids. |
I have never heard that acids stimulate collagen production the way Retin-A does |
Hi, Aiva.
Glycolic acid has been shown to stimulate collagen production, but is supposedly less effective than retinoic acid.
| Quote: |
4. Glycolic acid peels
According to a 1998 study in Dermatological Surgery, glycolic acid treatments increase fibroblasts' production of collagen in vivo (in hairless mice) and in vitro (in human skin fibroblast culture) better than either lactic acid or malic acid. However, if you are deciding between prescription strength retinoids and over-the-counter glycolic acid peels, you may want to choose the prescription retinoid cream. According to a randomized, placebo-controlled double-blind study, it was found that 0.05 % all-trans-retinoic acid was more effective than 10 % glycolic acid (a concentration found in at-home treatments) in treating signs of aging.
http://www.futurederm.com/2008/03/08/how-can-i-rebuild-collagen/
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Female, 40, Norway. Normal/dry skin, starting to see signs of aging. Staples: Glycolic acid cleanser, SkinCeuticals Phloretin CF, Revaleskin, NIA24. |
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Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:07 am |
| So ifyou choose to use a glycolic or retinol product, would it help to use a ceramide product in conjunction with it to counteract the effects or is it going to happen anyway? Is it worth the side effects to get the results? |
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Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:25 am |
| jenw wrote: |
| So ifyou choose to use a glycolic or retinol product, would it help to use a ceramide product in conjunction with it to counteract the effects or is it going to happen anyway? Is it worth the side effects to get the results? |
I would say yes, it helps to use products with ceramides, niacinamide etc to strengthen skin barrier and counteract the thinning effects of acids. A study, that I posted on another thread recently, showed that niacinamide is proven to strengthen a skin barrier that is impaired from the use of retinoids.
Personally, I have not experienced any side effects from the use of tretinoin and glycolic acids. I am going to include a barrier strengthening cream in my regimen anyway. |
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Female, 40, Norway. Normal/dry skin, starting to see signs of aging. Staples: Glycolic acid cleanser, SkinCeuticals Phloretin CF, Revaleskin, NIA24. |
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Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:09 am |
| Septembergirl wrote: |
| Aiva wrote: |
| Septembergirl wrote: |
Retinoids and glycolic acid do thin the outer layers of the skin, stratum corneum, but supposedly these actives thicken the deeper layers of the skin by stimulating collagen synthesis, which erase fine wrinkles and promote a younger appearance.
Agents like niacinamide, ceramides and fatty acids may strengthen the skin barrier and counteract some of the thinning effect of the acids. |
I have never heard that acids stimulate collagen production the way Retin-A does |
Hi, Aiva.
Glycolic acid has been shown to stimulate collagen production, but is supposedly less effective than retinoic acid.
| Quote: |
4. Glycolic acid peels
According to a 1998 study in Dermatological Surgery, glycolic acid treatments increase fibroblasts' production of collagen in vivo (in hairless mice) and in vitro (in human skin fibroblast culture) better than either lactic acid or malic acid. However, if you are deciding between prescription strength retinoids and over-the-counter glycolic acid peels, you may want to choose the prescription retinoid cream. According to a randomized, placebo-controlled double-blind study, it was found that 0.05 % all-trans-retinoic acid was more effective than 10 % glycolic acid (a concentration found in at-home treatments) in treating signs of aging.
http://www.futurederm.com/2008/03/08/how-can-i-rebuild-collagen/
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Hi Septembergirl,
I found a study that says the total opposite, that peeling agents do not enhance collagen synthesis like retinoids 
http://www.springerlink.com/content/a113m1645x0412h4/ |
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Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:20 am |
| boski wrote: |
| Septembergirl wrote: |
| Aiva wrote: |
| Septembergirl wrote: |
Retinoids and glycolic acid do thin the outer layers of the skin, stratum corneum, but supposedly these actives thicken the deeper layers of the skin by stimulating collagen synthesis, which erase fine wrinkles and promote a younger appearance.
Agents like niacinamide, ceramides and fatty acids may strengthen the skin barrier and counteract some of the thinning effect of the acids. |
I have never heard that acids stimulate collagen production the way Retin-A does |
Hi, Aiva.
Glycolic acid has been shown to stimulate collagen production, but is supposedly less effective than retinoic acid.
| Quote: |
4. Glycolic acid peels
According to a 1998 study in Dermatological Surgery, glycolic acid treatments increase fibroblasts' production of collagen in vivo (in hairless mice) and in vitro (in human skin fibroblast culture) better than either lactic acid or malic acid. However, if you are deciding between prescription strength retinoids and over-the-counter glycolic acid peels, you may want to choose the prescription retinoid cream. According to a randomized, placebo-controlled double-blind study, it was found that 0.05 % all-trans-retinoic acid was more effective than 10 % glycolic acid (a concentration found in at-home treatments) in treating signs of aging.
http://www.futurederm.com/2008/03/08/how-can-i-rebuild-collagen/
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Hi Septembergirl,
I found a study that says the total opposite, that peeling agents do not enhance collagen synthesis like retinoids
http://www.springerlink.com/content/a113m1645x0412h4/ |
As mentioned above, glycolic acid is supposedly not as effective as retinoic acid in stimulating collagen synthesis, but studies have suggested that it most likely does boost collagen growth.
I don't know why the mice in the study you found did not respond to the treatment. Studies that are published on Pubmed and cat.inist.fr show that glycolic acid has resulted in collagen growth in the skin of other shaved mice and fibroblast cultures.
This is what the famous cosmetic critic Paula Begoun has to say about AHA/glycolic acid, with several references to scientific articles:
| Quote: |
AHAs are widely used for therapy of photodamaged skin, and also have been reported to normalize hyperkeratinization (over-thickened skin), and to increase viable epidermal thickness and dermal glycosaminoglycans content. A vast amount of research has substantially described how the aging process affects the skin and has demonstrated that many of the unwanted changes can be improved by topical application of AHA, including glycolic and lactic acid.
http://www.cosmeticscop.com/learn/cosmetic_dictionary.asp?id=6&letter=A (Scroll down to AHA)
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This is a quote from the skin guru, dermatologist Leslie Baumann:
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_________________
Female, 40, Norway. Normal/dry skin, starting to see signs of aging. Staples: Glycolic acid cleanser, SkinCeuticals Phloretin CF, Revaleskin, NIA24. |
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Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:35 am |
| It is said that there is a drop off point with glycolics but they do not thin the skin. Retin A or retinol products do not exfoliate the skin. They can help skin to look and feel smoother but ahas and bhas are the ingredients that affect the surface of the skin. |
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Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:31 pm |
| Aiva wrote: |
| bethany wrote: |
| Jenw, if you PM me with your email address, I can send you a study I recently read that focused on longer term usage of glycolics, Retin-A, etc. and steps that must be taken to repair the skin barrier after using these products. |
bethany, would you tell us all a summary of this study? main points? |
Here are some key quotes. The entire study is not avaiable online, thus no link.
| Quote: |
Chronic inflammation is etiology of extrinsic aging
Carl R Thornfeldt, MD, FAAD
Founder & CEO, Episciences, Inc., and Private practice, CT Derm, Fruitland, ID
The incidence of chronic inflammatory skin diseases appears to be significantly increasing in all age groups.
During this same period, however, the popularity of exfoliating strategies with alpha hydroxy acids (AHAs), retinoids, and microdermabrasion has exploded.
Any degree of repeated or chronic disruption of the stratum corneum barrier has been documented to activate chronic inflammation.8 Acute inflammation followed by complete rejuvenation of the stratum corneum permeability barrier does not seem to induce or exacerbate destructive chronic inflammation if more than 2 weeks elapses between treatments.
Chronic inflammation that is induced by both AHAs and retinoids seems to be primarily the result of barrier disruption.
The correlation of the rising skin cancer epidemic with increasing exfoliative strategies forces skin care professionals to consider whether chronic inflammation induced by stratum corneum permeability barrier disruption plays a contributing role.
This author and Elias established that a lipid mixture of ceramides, cholesterol, and free fatty acid applied topically effectively reversed compromised permeability barrier function.
Use of exfoliating procedures should always be followed immediately by barrier repairing formulations consisting of ceramides, cholesterol, and free fatty acid. Moreover, consistent use of AHAs and retinoids should be augmented with regular use of a cosmetically elegant formulation with anti-inflammatory/barrier optimizing properties. These strategies should be expected to maximize and maintain the protective function and structure of the mucocutaneous surfaces. |
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_________________
No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:32 pm |
| Septembergirl wrote: |
| boski wrote: |
| Septembergirl wrote: |
| Aiva wrote: |
| Septembergirl wrote: |
Retinoids and glycolic acid do thin the outer layers of the skin, stratum corneum, but supposedly these actives thicken the deeper layers of the skin by stimulating collagen synthesis, which erase fine wrinkles and promote a younger appearance.
Agents like niacinamide, ceramides and fatty acids may strengthen the skin barrier and counteract some of the thinning effect of the acids. |
I have never heard that acids stimulate collagen production the way Retin-A does |
Hi, Aiva.
Glycolic acid has been shown to stimulate collagen production, but is supposedly less effective than retinoic acid.
| Quote: |
4. Glycolic acid peels
According to a 1998 study in Dermatological Surgery, glycolic acid treatments increase fibroblasts' production of collagen in vivo (in hairless mice) and in vitro (in human skin fibroblast culture) better than either lactic acid or malic acid. However, if you are deciding between prescription strength retinoids and over-the-counter glycolic acid peels, you may want to choose the prescription retinoid cream. According to a randomized, placebo-controlled double-blind study, it was found that 0.05 % all-trans-retinoic acid was more effective than 10 % glycolic acid (a concentration found in at-home treatments) in treating signs of aging.
http://www.futurederm.com/2008/03/08/how-can-i-rebuild-collagen/
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Hi Septembergirl,
I found a study that says the total opposite, that peeling agents do not enhance collagen synthesis like retinoids
http://www.springerlink.com/content/a113m1645x0412h4/ |
As mentioned above, glycolic acid is supposedly not as effective as retinoic acid in stimulating collagen synthesis, but studies have suggested that it most likely does boost collagen growth.
I don't know why the mice in the study you found did not respond to the treatment. Studies that are published on Pubmed and cat.inist.fr show that glycolic acid has resulted in collagen growth in the skin of other shaved mice and fibroblast cultures.
This is what the famous cosmetic critic Paula Begoun has to say about AHA/glycolic acid, with several references to scientific articles:
| Quote: |
AHAs are widely used for therapy of photodamaged skin, and also have been reported to normalize hyperkeratinization (over-thickened skin), and to increase viable epidermal thickness and dermal glycosaminoglycans content. A vast amount of research has substantially described how the aging process affects the skin and has demonstrated that many of the unwanted changes can be improved by topical application of AHA, including glycolic and lactic acid.
http://www.cosmeticscop.com/learn/cosmetic_dictionary.asp?id=6&letter=A (Scroll down to AHA)
|
This is a quote from the skin guru, dermatologist Leslie Baumann:
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And one more...
Per Dr. Yarosh in "The New Science of Perfect Skin" (page 203):
"The key mechanism of AHAs is setting off a wound-healing response in the lower dermis, which triggers increased collagen production and has a visible antiwrinkle effect." |
_________________
No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:12 pm |
and the answer is  |
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Vangirl
New Member
 
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 2
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Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:16 pm |
| Can someone recommend some good skin barrier strenghthening creams please? |
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Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:34 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
| Aiva wrote: |
| bethany wrote: |
| Jenw, if you PM me with your email address, I can send you a study I recently read that focused on longer term usage of glycolics, Retin-A, etc. and steps that must be taken to repair the skin barrier after using these products. |
bethany, would you tell us all a summary of this study? main points? |
Here are some key quotes. The entire study is not avaiable online, thus no link.
| Quote: |
Chronic inflammation is etiology of extrinsic aging
Carl R Thornfeldt, MD, FAAD
Founder & CEO, Episciences, Inc., and Private practice, CT Derm, Fruitland, ID
The incidence of chronic inflammatory skin diseases appears to be significantly increasing in all age groups.
During this same period, however, the popularity of exfoliating strategies with alpha hydroxy acids (AHAs), retinoids, and microdermabrasion has exploded.
Any degree of repeated or chronic disruption of the stratum corneum barrier has been documented to activate chronic inflammation.8 Acute inflammation followed by complete rejuvenation of the stratum corneum permeability barrier does not seem to induce or exacerbate destructive chronic inflammation if more than 2 weeks elapses between treatments.
Chronic inflammation that is induced by both AHAs and retinoids seems to be primarily the result of barrier disruption.
The correlation of the rising skin cancer epidemic with increasing exfoliative strategies forces skin care professionals to consider whether chronic inflammation induced by stratum corneum permeability barrier disruption plays a contributing role.
This author and Elias established that a lipid mixture of ceramides, cholesterol, and free fatty acid applied topically effectively reversed compromised permeability barrier function.
Use of exfoliating procedures should always be followed immediately by barrier repairing formulations consisting of ceramides, cholesterol, and free fatty acid. Moreover, consistent use of AHAs and retinoids should be augmented with regular use of a cosmetically elegant formulation with anti-inflammatory/barrier optimizing properties. These strategies should be expected to maximize and maintain the protective function and structure of the mucocutaneous surfaces. |
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thank you bethany! 
do you happen to know in what topical product this lipid mixture of ceramides, cholesterol, and free fatty acid can be found? |
_________________
31, combo - oily, breakout-prone, fair complexion, sensitive and prone to rosacea |
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Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:35 pm |
| Vangirl wrote: |
| Can someone recommend some good skin barrier strenghthening creams please? |
NIA24 and some of the Olay moisturizers contain the strengthening ingredient niacinamide. Atopalm MLE face cream has got barrier strengthening ingredients, as well as Remergent Barrier Repair and Elizabeth Arden Ceramide capsules. |
_________________
Female, 40, Norway. Normal/dry skin, starting to see signs of aging. Staples: Glycolic acid cleanser, SkinCeuticals Phloretin CF, Revaleskin, NIA24. |
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Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:36 pm |
so did the authors of the study used one of these products? |
_________________
31, combo - oily, breakout-prone, fair complexion, sensitive and prone to rosacea |
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Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:34 pm |
| Aiva wrote: |
so did the authors of the study used one of these products? |
No...they didn't mention what they used. |
_________________
No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:35 pm |
So to answer the original question, it does appears that constant use of AHAs does thin the epidermis and induces collagen production through a repair response and inflammation. Retinoids have a genuine ability to promote collagen which is not inflammation driven, and that is good. The negative aspect of acids is that by causing this thinning and inflammation you are making yourself more prone to sun damage and/or possibly cancer unless you never go outside or apply a sunscreen (which may or may not protect you.) There is a big debate going on between dermatologists about sunscreens and their ability or inability to protect from melanomas.
In related news, it has been widely reported in the news lately that a study recently revealed that the occurrence of melanoma in women has increased 50% in the last 2 decades, but not so for men. Makes me wonder if it's because women are so accustomed to using peels and other strong topicals (which includes chemical SSs) which causes inflammation or microinflammation (unseen) and possibly promotes cancer as stated by Dr Thornfeldt in Beth's article. No explanation was given for the increase in women in the study, but it's being seen more and more in doctors office. You can assume it's because women tan more than men I guess. But women typically apply SS more diligently than men do, so it really is puzzling. It's not unreasonable to think it might be due to the overuse of irritating or inflammatory topicals, but until somebody does a study to prove or disprove this, nobody is going to know for sure.
THURSDAY, July 10 (HealthDay News) -- Cases of melanoma, the deadliest form of skin cancer, are increasing sharply among younger women in the United States, but not among younger men, a new study says.
"These findings are important, because they suggest that public education campaigns to educate Americans about the risks of skin cancer from sun tanning do not appear to have resulted in a reduction in melanoma rates among young women," said lead researcher Mark Purdue, of the National Cancer Institute's Division of Cancer Epidemiology & Genetics.
"We observed a 50 percent increase in the annual incidence of melanoma among young adult Caucasian women between 1980 and 2004," he added.
The number of cases among young women increased from 9.4 per 100,000 in 1980 to 13.9 per 100,000 in 2004, according to the report, published in the July 10 online edition of the Journal of Investigative Dermatology.
For the study, Purdue's team collected data on the incidence of melanoma among white men and women, 15 to 39 years of age. The researchers used data from the cancer institute's Surveillance, Epidemiology and End Results Program, which is a network of regional cancer registries that record all newly diagnosed cancers.
In addition to the rising rates of melanoma among younger women, the researchers found an increasing trend for thicker and later-stage melanomas, which suggests that the increase isn't the result of better reporting of the disease.
Purdue said it's not clear what's driving the melanoma trend among younger women.
"The leveling off in melanoma rates for young men gives cause for optimism regarding a possible reduction in future trends in older men," Purdue said. "However, our findings for young women suggest that we may see increasing rates of melanoma among older women for some time to come."
Dr. Jeffrey C. Salomon, an assistant clinical professor of plastic surgery at Yale University School of Medicine, said the findings reflect what doctors are seeing in their offices.
"Young people should consider these statistics as a warning that they, too, are susceptible to this potentially dangerous form of skin cancer," Salomon said. And, he added, "The data is similar to the findings of large-scale studies in Australia."
People -- whether young or not -- should take precautions and limit their sun and ultraviolet radiation exposure and incorporate the use of sunscreens containing UVA blocks, Salomon advised.
And people should routinely examine themselves for telltale signs of melanoma, such as suspicious pigmented lesions, Salomon said. "I regularly have patients who have had pigmented lesions noted by themselves or other people that turned out to be a melanoma. Checking yourself and others can save someone's life," he said. |
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Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:17 pm |
You may be right on the acids and peels etc and sun exposure Boski, that is very delicate new skin that is exposed.
The skin cancer clinic I go to states in no uncertain terms that sunscreen cannot protect against melanoma (they do say it can against other types of skin cancer).
Other studies also say that the ingredients found in chemical sunscreens have cancer causing properties so I am sticking to physical sunscreen and trying to avoid too much sun exposure, wear a big hat etc. Oh and no more peels |
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Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:28 am |
 This thread just confirms the fact that I have likely done more damage than good using retinoids, acids, etc. Oh well, lessons learned!
Oddly enough though, someone posted this article:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/9qn11455259l7669/
Lactic acid supposedly helps build and strengthen the skins layers...so I've been using lactic acid only.
I'm *loving* isomers copper p concentrate serum! it is so soothing and so wonderful. I did a lactic acid peel using the copper p concentrate serum and there was no inflammation (that I could feel or detect) or burning whatsoever and it was 50% strength. I'll never do a peel or use retinoids again without this stuff! |
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Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:28 pm |
About women getting skin cancer more than men:
Another contributing factor could be that men have thicker skin, so given the same amount of sun exposure the woman is more likely to get cancer. Recently both men and women have been tanning more, but the effect is more pronounced in women because of the thinner skin. |
_________________
24 yrs old. favorite sunscreen right now: Burnout [now 35] |
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Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:22 pm |
| Nimue wrote: |
About women getting skin cancer more than men:
Another contributing factor could be that men have thicker skin, so given the same amount of sun exposure the woman is more likely to get cancer. Recently both men and women have been tanning more, but the effect is more pronounced in women because of the thinner skin. |
That's certainly a possibility, and even more reason women should not be over exfoliating and thinning their skin unnecessarily. Instead of using skincare which is dependent on a repair model which injures and strips the epidermis, use one with a metabolic model which can stimulate and encourage collagen synthesis without disrupting the natural barrier.
I think that is a much safer and better way to go and alot more sustainable in the long-run. Your skin isn't meant to be in constant repair mode and will get stressed after awhile. |
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