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Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:15 pm  |
so... being in Europe where health safety regulations are known to be very strict I`ve bought Avene Lait Mineral SPF50 sunscreen.
it is a pure mineral sunscreen, active ingredients are titanium dioxide & zinc oxide. It is written on the package that the formula was developed for hypersensitive skins, skins with allergies to chemical filters, compromised skins (after surgery, peels etc.) and for babies & children.
then it says that the active ingredients consist of mineral nanoparticles... which provide high photostability and very long-lasting secure protection from the whole UV spectrum...
so the question is: if a european company with good reputation and strict control makes a mineral sunscreen containing nanotitanium and/or nanozinc aimed at children... are the nanoparticles really dangerous???? how can it be?
all the info I have found on nanoparticles is that they are able to penetrate the skin and enter the bloodflow... and they are not ehough studied yet... I`m confused  |
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31, combo - oily, breakout-prone, fair complexion, sensitive and prone to rosacea |
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Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:53 pm |
I wouldn't worry about them.
In the media the general consensus is that they will penetrate your skin and kill you and turn babies into zombies...
But in scientific journals, very few (like 1 or 2) studies have shown they penetrate, and only in very strict circumstances and I think one of them was in vitro.
Further study is needed, but I wouldn't lose sleep over using them at this point. |
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Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:05 am |
| I have the Avene Mineral sunscreen. On my box it states that the particles are microionized (both in English and French), not nano-particles. |
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Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:09 am |
m1rox, here I have scanned this part of the package - it is in French and in German.
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31, combo - oily, breakout-prone, fair complexion, sensitive and prone to rosacea |
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Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:12 am |
| and m1rox, do you probably know % of titanium dioxide and zinc oxide in this sunscreen? |
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31, combo - oily, breakout-prone, fair complexion, sensitive and prone to rosacea |
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Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:42 am |
| According to all the research I've seen, nano sized zinc oxide is totally safe, but nano sized titanium dioxide is slightly less safe. So it would be best to stick with zinc oxide, then you don't even have to worry about coated vs. uncoated. For zinc oxide, I actually prefer uncoated because then I also get the skin soothing/healing benefits of zinc oxide. |
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24 yrs old. favorite sunscreen right now: Burnout [now 35] |
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Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:50 am |
Oh my version (sold in Asia) says micronized and coated in English and micronises et enrobes in French. Could they have changed the formula?? +++edited: I think we have different products. Mine is the Mineral Cream (Creme Minerale 50). Apologies, they only sell this version of the Avene physical sunblock in Asia. I didn't realize there was a Lait version.
No I don't know the percentages of zinc oxide/titanium dioxide. It may be proprietary info. I didn't email to Avene because I had previously emailed another French company RoC for info on their ingredients and got a rather terse answer that it was proprietary info (in rather unfriendly tone) so was not keen to repeat the unpleasant experience again. Anyway, the sunscreens in Europe are well regulated and the PPD has to be at least one third of the stated SPF, so the PPD should be around 16 to 17 at least on this sunblock.
I received a pamphlet with the sunblock that stated that the recommended amount to be applied to get the stated SPF was one finger length for face and two finger lengths for front of chest. The diagram showed the 2nd (index) and third (middle) fingers being smeared with a "line" of the cream squeezed out from the nozzle. This is far less than the 1/4 tsp standard for other sunscreens. I wouldn't be able to apply 1/4 tsp of this sunblock due to the pale pink tone and how it sits on top of my skin. That one finger length amount for the face is just right for me (I use middle finger). |
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Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:33 am |
| Nimue wrote: |
| According to all the research I've seen, nano sized zinc oxide is totally safe, but nano sized titanium dioxide is slightly less safe. So it would be best to stick with zinc oxide, then you don't even have to worry about coated vs. uncoated. For zinc oxide, I actually prefer uncoated because then I also get the skin soothing/healing benefits of zinc oxide. |
Uncoated oxides do produce free radicals when placed in UV, so make sure you have some sort of full spectrum antioxidant protection as well. |
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Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:29 pm |
Well, I've yet to see any credible studies showing zinc oxide, in any form, has been shown to cause harm/produce free radicals, etc. So I'm not taking your statement on faith.
Can you tell I really really like zinc oxide?  I'm very loyal and protective.
| edenfield wrote: |
Uncoated oxides do produce free radicals when placed in UV, so make sure you have some sort of full spectrum antioxidant protection as well. |
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24 yrs old. favorite sunscreen right now: Burnout [now 35] |
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Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:40 am |
| Quote: |
so the question is: if a european company with good reputation and strict control makes a mineral sunscreen containing nanotitanium and/or nanozinc aimed at children... are the nanoparticles really dangerous???? how can it be?
all the info I have found on nanoparticles is that they are able to penetrate the skin and enter the bloodflow... and they are not ehough studied yet... I`m confused |
I agree with Edenfield. You shouldn't worry about it too much. From what I've learned at my derm office is that Euro sunscreens don't use particles under 30nm.
However, just make sure the particles are coated. At nanosize zinc oxide and TiO2 properties become completely different and they become much more reactive (Both ZnO and TiO2). The smaller the particle= the more toxic bc their is more surface area for the particle to interact with other elements and instead of just reflecting light they absorb as well at smaller sizes. Which means when they absorb a photon the electrons get excited and hence more reactive. In say an aqueous environment they will react with H2O to form hydroxide free radicals (one of the most dangerous). Nanoparticles have generally been shown to not penetrate past the stratum corneum however, there have been studies (only a few) that shown it has and furthermore its been shown to possibly penetrate the skin through the hair follices. Nano particles need to stay on the surface of the skin, bc once they penetrate they reflect light not just away from the skin, but in all directions damaging skin cells. If the particles are coated, then its much more safe and there is no photoreactivity. The coating on ZnO and TiO2 is also needed (especially in nanosize) bc without it, metal oxides have electrostatic attractive forces that tend to cause the particles to collect together and reduce the protection of the sunscreen.
Personally I look for sunscreens without nanoparticles bc I have slight eczema on my cheek bones and its possible and likely that nanoparticles can penetrate compromised skin barriers with people that have conditions like psoriasis, rosacea etc. I feel much more safe with a safe chemical sunscreen that I know my body will get rid of than a potential inorganic particle that can be stored permanently in the lungs, other tissues, and cross the blood brain barrier that the body cant get rid of. Again, that is only if it gets in through the skin, so for regular people its safe but for me with my eczema I avoid it. |
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Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:48 am |
Aiva,
I forgot to tell you that I've tried the Bioderma Mineral Sunscreen that I was looking forward to using. It is whitening, but that is what I expected from a physical sunscreen that has high ppd. I was actually glad to see this, bc if it went on invisible then I would know the particle size is not big enough to protect in the full UVA range. However, after awhile it was a little better and less white. I actually really like it for long days in the sun bc you dont have to reapply physical sunscreens bc they are stable and last all day. The texture was fairly nice as well. So overall, its not going to be an everyday sunscreen, but I do think it gives GREAT protection and I will use for days when I am outside alot. |
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Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:03 am |
| Quote: |
Well, I've yet to see any credible studies showing zinc oxide, in any form, has been shown to cause harm/produce free radicals, etc. So I'm not taking your statement on faith.
Can you tell I really really like zinc oxide? I'm very loyal and protective. |
LOL We know you love your zinc oxide Nimue!
Its true that zinc oxide does produce free radicals especially hydroxide free radicals, but in sunscreens the major question is if it penetrates enough to have an effect. If the zinc oxide stays on the surface then uncoated zinc oxide (esp. nano, to a lesser degree micro)then it will produce free radicals, but they will likely not have an effect. If however the particle do not stay on the very top of the skin (unlikely for nano) then the free radicals can be harmful. Best bet is to make sure the particles are coated. But like Nimue said uncoated zinc oxide does have benefits like anti-inflammatory properties! Also uncoated TiO2 is much more reactive and produces about 2x as many free radicals as ZnO so this ingredient should definitely be coated.
However, there is TiO2 doped with manganese? i think...which doesnt produce free radicals and actually works as an antioxidant to quench free radicals. I think the product was called Optisol or something similar to that. |
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Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:40 am |
thank you ladies for all the answers!  |
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31, combo - oily, breakout-prone, fair complexion, sensitive and prone to rosacea |
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Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:40 am |
| Ocean14 wrote: |
Aiva,
I forgot to tell you that I've tried the Bioderma Mineral Sunscreen that I was looking forward to using. It is whitening, but that is what I expected from a physical sunscreen that has high ppd. I was actually glad to see this, bc if it went on invisible then I would know the particle size is not big enough to protect in the full UVA range. However, after awhile it was a little better and less white. I actually really like it for long days in the sun bc you dont have to reapply physical sunscreens bc they are stable and last all day. The texture was fairly nice as well. So overall, its not going to be an everyday sunscreen, but I do think it gives GREAT protection and I will use for days when I am outside alot. |
Ocean, thank you for the review of Bioderma mineral |
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31, combo - oily, breakout-prone, fair complexion, sensitive and prone to rosacea |
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Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:06 pm |
| Quote: |
Its true that zinc oxide does produce free radicals especially hydroxide free radicals, but in sunscreens the major question is if it penetrates enough to have an effect. If the zinc oxide stays on the surface then uncoated zinc oxide (esp. nano, to a lesser degree micro)then it will produce free radicals, but they will likely not have an effect. If however the particle do not stay on the very top of the skin (unlikely for nano) then the free radicals can be harmful. Best bet is to make sure the particles are coated. But like Nimue said uncoated zinc oxide does have benefits like anti-inflammatory properties! Also uncoated TiO2 is much more reactive and produces about 2x as many free radicals as ZnO so this ingredient should definitely be coated. |
In response to my above post...this is mainly with nanosize uncoated zinc oxide. Micronized is less reactive and will not generate as many free radicals as at a smaller size. ZnO stays at the surface of the skin so if it uncoated, it can produce minimal amounts of free radicals, but as long as it hasnt penetrated skin cells (which its shown not to do) then its completely safe. Sorry if that above post sounded like ZnO is harmful...its definitely not and much less than TiO2. Uncoated ZnO only produces minimal amounts of free radicals and will not do damage bc it will stay at the skin surface with other dead skin cells of the stratum corneum, so no harm done!
I usu respond to posts late at night after studying and when I reread I sometimes don't write everything I mean to say! |
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Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:03 am |
Hi Ocean
do you have any links to papers on the TiO2 being a free radical with reference to this comment you made?
Also uncoated TiO2 is much more reactive and produces about 2x as many free radicals as ZnO so this ingredient should definitely be coated. |
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early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:58 pm |
| Ocean 14, then what about the Zinc Oxide & Titanium Dioxide in MMU? How can one tell if it's coated or not? So r u saying that ONLY nano size uncoated Zinc & Titanium Dioxide that are harmful to the skin? Uncoated micronized Zinc & Titanium Dioxide are fine? Thanks. |
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Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:46 pm |
| They aren't harmful if it is properly formulated, either coated with silicone or packed with antioxidants that can neutralize those particular reactive species. |
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Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:45 pm |
Hello,
I am confused. I thought that zinc oxide is not known to be harmful. |
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Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:44 pm |
| ruk1 wrote: |
Hello,
I am confused. I thought that zinc oxide is not known to be harmful. |
Hi ruk1, I think Ocean14 clarified with her quote above: "ZnO stays at the surface of the skin so if it uncoated, it can produce minimal amounts of free radicals, but as long as it hasnt penetrated skin cells (which its shown not to do) then its completely safe. Sorry if that above post sounded like ZnO is harmful...its definitely not and much less than TiO2. Uncoated ZnO only produces minimal amounts of free radicals and will not do damage bc it will stay at the skin surface with other dead skin cells of the stratum corneum, so no harm done! "
I'm in agreement with her, based on my own research, that zinc oxide is safe, and where people get concerned is in terms of nanoparticles and whether they're coated or not. This means that, as far as I know, MMU is not a problem for sure because it's not on a nano level. Personally, I'm less worried about the particle size, too, though some days it does seem as though all we're doing is picking the lesser of evils! In this case though, I feel pretty confident that with zinc oxide we've found a "goodie." |
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early 30s; combo skin: medium-fair pale with freckles, controlled breakouts. Love: argan and tamanu oil, Devita SS, NCN rhassoul cleansing bar, pumpkin peel, DIY Vit C serum. Getting into more DIY... Fan of natural/organic products. |
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Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:33 pm |
After briefly viewing the links you provided, Edenfeld (thanks, BTW) - I think I'll stick w/ regular TiO2 or ZiO.
Those papers all talked about nano particled or micronized physical SS and I don't feel comfortable using those. They do go on better, but I think I'll stick w/ normal sized physical SS. I don't like any SS that can get INTO the skin, and I would not like to use some that has a coating,either. I like my SS to stay on top.
Stardusty - I believe the TiO2 found in MMU is NOT nano sized or coated(and, therefore - safe to use).
rukl - ZiO alone is very safe to use (and soothing - it's what's found in diaper rash ointment). It's also VERY white. (it's downfall, as well as TiO2's) |
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early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:37 pm |
As a side note - I have found the physical SS of TiO2 to work wonders on my sensitive decolletage.
For years, I've suffered from any sun exposure there. I would get sun poisoning, a rash, burn horibly, and get pimples. No SS I tried ever really helped.
Just this year, I switched to a physical SS and have eliminated all those problems. I believe my skin reacted badly to the chemicals in the SSs I've been using or the nano particles in another SS I bought last year. |
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early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:22 pm |
| It seems all the posted links above are about TiO2. They didn't say anything about ZnO though... |
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Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:42 am |
| Quote: |
After briefly viewing the links you provided, Edenfeld (thanks, BTW) - I think I'll stick w/ regular TiO2 or ZiO.
Those papers all talked about nano particled or micronized physical SS and I don't feel comfortable using those. They do go on better, but I think I'll stick w/ normal sized physical SS. I don't like any SS that can get INTO the skin, and I would not like to use some that has a coating,either. I like my SS to stay on top. |
Good choice Foxe!
The "normal size" zinc oxide and titanium dioxide can give you full protection in both the UVA and UVB range. When zinc oxide is made into smaller particle sizes it loses protection in the UVA range (aging rays!), but increases protection in the UVB range. I know from my review of Bioderma Mineral Sunscreen that it has excellent particle size and protection and might be a good choice for people to check out.
| Quote: |
| I would not like to use some that has a coating,either. I like my SS to stay on top. |
You're right this is very important. Sunscreens physical or chemical need to stay on the skin surface (why so many sunscreens have silicones in them). However, coating actually helps to keep the particle on the skin surface and reduce penetration. The coating on the particles allow them to disperse more evenly on the skin, hence even coverage and reduce hyperpigmentation. But like I said before uncoated ZnO does have anti-inflam abilities so I guess its your choice! |
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