Can CPs and Retinoids (Taz) be used together?
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free skin care · Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:04 pm

Hello Everyone,
I'm a devoted Taz user as it's nearly cured by persistent acne and has definitely decreased some fine lines around my eyes. While it has smoothed my skin and reduced my shallow icepick scars a bit, I am wondering if CPs would be the way to go.

Can prescription retinoids be used with CPs? Also, after looking at the skinbio site, I'm confused as to where to begin. Any suggestions? Thanks for any and all help!

free skin care · Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:43 am

It should be fine. Unless u have sensitive skin.
I used CP and Retin-a(0.025% gel) together once.
Doesn't really affect me.
Just start it slow. Apply small amount then gradually build up. In that way, your skin will get used to it and wont react.

free skin care · Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:48 am

I would say no. To get the best result from Tazorac or any type of Retin A, use it alone and don't dilute it with moisturizers or other products. I've been using the RA for 24 years so i am very "old school" about it---- and I am NOT a fan of CP's! (One of the worst skin care mistakes I ever made!)

free skin care · Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:04 am

According to the skinbio site, they can be used together and are often done so successfully. Have a look on ncnproskincare.com. Nanci is wonderful starting people on the copper peptides and explaining where to start, etc.

If you do begin copper peptides, it is advised to start with the mildest form and slowly work your way up. The super GHK is the mildest form, which is first generation CP. If you want to try the 2nd generation CP, you could begin with Protect and Restore or the original copper peptide serum.

Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:30 am

Probably safer and more effective to alternate than mix. This right off one of the skinbio sites (under cautions/tips): "If you are using acne products recommended by your dermatologist, we recommend you alternate copper peptides and an exfoliator one day and your acne product the next day. Common products used alongside copper peptides include benzoyl peroxide, Retin-A and ProActiv. SRCPs (Skin Remodeling Copper-Peptides) help reduce the irritation caused by other anti-acne products and allow for their more effective use."
Taz isn't specifically on the list, but retinoids seem to be covered with Retin-A.

I'm trying a similar alternate-day protocol for wrinkles & age spots. It hasn't been long enough that I can report really noticeable positive results, but no irritation or other negatives thus far.

free skin care · Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:01 am

YES! And they compliment each other well.

I have used a retinoid (Retin A, Taz or Retin A Micro) for over 18 years. I started using CPs 10 months ago and am seeing great results with these 2. I also use a BHA since I have extremely oily, acne prone skin that was very congested.

The CPs will help get rid of the irritation that retinoids can give. You need to observe a wait time when using any exfoliative that's pH sensitive (like retinoids, retinols, AHAs or BHAs) to get the best results out of them.

Since you've been using Taz already, you probably (or should be) wait about 20-30 minutes after cleansing before applying the Taz. Doing this will help lessen irritation, but it also brings the pH of your skin to it's normal level of around 4.5-5.5. This is the best pH for your skin to be at when applying exfoliatives.

After applying the Taz, you may apply the CPs, but will need to wait approximately 30 minutes before doing so. This will give the exfoliative time to do it's job. The pH of Taz (like most exfoliatives) is around 3.0 and will work best without being disturbed during the time it is on your skin. Your skin's pH will take about 30 minutes to return to normal and nothing should be applied to your skin during this time. After a 30 minute wait, apply your CPs and then Emu Oil (optional - but is a great moisturizer and pushes the CPs in better)

This is my routine:

PM

cleanse (wait 30 minutes if the pH is higher than 5.5)
Retinoid (wait 30 minutes to allow it to work)
CPs (wait til absorbed)
Emu Oil

AM

cleanse (wait 30 minutes...)
BHA (wait 30 minutes)
CPs or Vit C (I like my CPs better, but using up some Vit C)
Sunscreen

I have had AWESOME results with this routine. My skin is tightening up, pores are diminishing, wrinkles lessening, skin tags have fallen off. My eyes have improved the most. I still see progress at 10 months out. I am considering moving up to using SC2X more often instead of just spot treating. I am on Super CP now.

free skin care · Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:01 pm

Wow Foxe, your results do sound fantastic! Do you think CPs would help with the slight icepic scars and rough texture issues that the Taz has only slightly helped? Nightmare stories about scarring and problems becoming worse with CPs has kept me from trying them.

free skin care · Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:00 pm

I think the CPs plus subscision or skin rolling would help with the ice pick scars and texture. Read the thread on dermarollers (very long) for more info.

The CPs would help with the texture by themselves. (Along w/ an exfoliative as they work best together). You could try the CPs first and see how it goes. It's a slow process and it's important to proceed slowly - they're very strong and can bring up bad looking skin before it's replaced with the good. Esp when you're dealing w/ scarring like acne ones. But that's how the CPs work. The exfoliator gets rid of the shedding/old skin and the CPs rebuild underneath with normal skin while the CPs push the bad stuff out. If taken slowly, you don't notice the uglies as much. Better to start with the milder CPs and work your way up to the stronger ones.

One thing I noticed the CPs doing is unclogging my congested pores. I've used a retinoid for years with a little success on my acne prone skin. Then, last year, I introduced a 2% BHA and saw more improvement. It wasn't until I added the CPs that they really started to clear up. I experienced some uglies along the way. The CPs seemed to purge the pores and they would go from looking like an enlarged pore to a small bump, then larger (or a blemish) and then disappear leaving behind a nice sized pore. My face is almost completely rid of all those clogged pores! There are some areas of my cheeks where I spot treated with the strongest CP (SC2X) that has the smoothest, poreless look to it. And it was that darn SC2X that caused the purging! Best of both worlds, I guess.

free skin care · Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:51 am

I have used both.... but with Retin you need to leave it half an hour before applying anything afterwards as it interferes with its absorption rates I am told.

I used to use them at opposites ends of the day - so using CP serum in the morning and Retin A at night. Also if I had any of the nasty side effects (redness, peeling, iritiation etc) from Retin, the CPs helped tremendously move them on very quickly.

free skin care · Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:34 pm

Everyone, thanks for all the helpful replies. Which skinbio serum should I start out with? Also, are the exfol serum and emu oil necessary?

free skin care · Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:38 am

Starting out with CP serum is really a good idea, it comes in higher strengths but they always advise you to start out slowly (that way you avoid overloading your skin).

Exfol serum isn't necessary, neither is the emu - but the emu (or squalene) are oils that you can use either before (if you have sensitive skin, it can be useful to apply the oil first and then the CP) or after (to push the CP further into the derma).

With CP usage, I think one of the tricks is to do some sort of exfoliation process though once a week, so you get rid of the dead older cells. CPs do work and take time to do their thing but if you don't exfoliate, your not going to encourage your facial tissue to begin making newer stronger cells and making use of the CP.

S[quote="Leigh"]Everyone, thanks for all the helpful replies. Which skinbio serum should I start out with? Also, are the exfol serum and emu oil necessary?[/quote]

free skin care · Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:50 pm

Leigh - some sort of exfoliation works best for CPs. You need to remove the old to bring up the new. Either daily use of your Taz or alternate something like Exfol with the Taz is good.

This is what Dr. P says:

Skin exfoliating hydroxy acids are often used to increase SRCP effects. Hydroxy acids exist naturally on the skin's surface. They act to loosen the chemical links between older skin cells and allow their removal. This removal of older skin allows your skin cells to move to the surface and speed skin renewal. Hydroxy acids slowly dissolve skin lesions and scar tissue. Some people use SRCPs one day and hydroxy acids on alternate days. Stronger hydroxy acids work faster but overuse can be irritating.

I happen to use both a retinoid and a BHA and I'm having great results. It might be using both of these is bringing my results along faster.

free skin care · Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:22 pm

Well I just ordered CP Serum and Emu oil and I can't wait to start using them on alternate nights with my Taz! Now I'm thinking I need a Dermaroller, LOL, to increase the effectiveness of all of this. After searching the numerous threads on this I'm at a loss as to which brand and needle length to choose.

I don't think I want to go longer than .75mm, so I'm thinking .5 mm would good for what I want. There are several brands on Amazon that have decent prices. Which brand and length should I choose! I do NOT want to read all 91 pages of the major Dermaroller thread!

free skin care · Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:57 pm

I have used cps with retinol with no problems. Currently I mix super cp serum with my retin a .05 and I love it. The retin a goes on so much easier. I don't feel like I have lost the benefits of either product doing it that way.

free skin care · Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:25 pm

Leigh - give Jack at One Stop a call. The EDS members have been giving him a lot of business. He gives us a discount too, so ask for it.

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=29392

Everyone likes the Dr. Roller brand.

cmayes - you will get BETTER results if you separate the 2 products. By mixing both the retinoid and the CPs together, you are changing the pH of the retinoid. Retin A, along with most other exfoliatives, are pH sensitive and need to be left alone to do their work. Their pH is around 3.0, and with your skin's pH at 4.5-5.5, the exfoliative is quite acidic. At this pH it is effectively working hard to remove old cells and help your skin to exfoliate. When you add a product to it before it's wait time of 30 minutes is up, you are stopping it's action immediately. The pH of most of the CPs are around 6.0. This will cause the retinoid to have barely any action at all.

Apply your retinoid, wait 30 minutes, then apply the CPs.

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