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Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:24 am  |
I think there is a lot of confusion when people use the term "bioidentical" BHRT vs. HRT.
When the say "BHRT" they automatically think of compounded drugs from a compounding pharmacy.
BHRT is also available from regular doctors at regular pharmacies....any doctor can prescribe BHRT and most do. BHRT comes in the form (just like HRT) of creams, pills, patches, etc.
There is a great need for people to self-educate.
BF |
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Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:50 am |
That Harvard article that rmc just linked is a great beginning resource to get educated about the types and forms of hormone therapy.
BF |
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Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:06 am |
| BF...agreed about the BHRT thing. I'm a journalist and this is the accepted term for it but it is very confusing. I used to write "Bio-ID" hormones until I was picked up on it by a newspaper editor. I still prefer it. |
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Born in 1952. Blonde, very good skin. A few noticeable wrinkles. |
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Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:23 am |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
I think there is a lot of confusion when people use the term "bioidentical" BHRT vs. HRT.
When the say "BHRT" they automatically think of compounded drugs from a compounding pharmacy.
BHRT is also available from regular doctors at regular pharmacies....any doctor can prescribe BHRT and most do. BHRT comes in the form (just like HRT) of creams, pills, patches, etc.
There is a great need for people to self-educate.
BF |
I think you make an excellent point about the Doctors that I haven't thought about. Before I schedule that appointment I am going to talk to my PCP He is so progressive, his group even uses massage therapy and acupuncture, I don't know why I wouldn't have thought of him in the first place. I do believe it must be that "fuzzy" thinking thing!  |
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Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:31 pm |
| Lacy53 wrote: |
| Antonia wrote: |
Toby, I asked my doc to check out my hormones via blood test. It came back as having "pre-adolescent levels." My saliva test said the same. So she just wrote up a script for biest and progestgerone. Three months after going on the biest my hair started to fall, which is why I could never be on the Pill in my younger years. Estradiol was converting to testosterone. She switched me to straight estriol and no problems.
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Are you sure estradiol can convert to testosterone? Do you have any research indicating this is possible? (I think it goes the other way around). |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
I think most hormones can be converted by the body to other hormones. Remember that the body strives to compensate whenever possible.
I wish Josee would chime in. I think she's a gynecologist and I am sure she would set me straight...
BF  |
Unfortunately I don't think Josee has time to post at EDS any longer. I was able to find some information from Dr. Leslie Baumann in her book Cosmetic Dermatology: Principles and Practices (2009):
In the adrenal gland, the precursor to both androgens and estrogens is DHEA, a derivative of cholesterol. DHEA is converted into androstenedione in the adrenal gland of men and women.
Both androstenedione and DHEA, which have weak androgenic activity, can enter the systemic circulation and can be converted into testosterone or estrogen by peripheral target cells. The enzyme responsible for this conversion is aromatase. Both men and women have the ability to convert testosterone into estradiol via this enzyme.
Other than that information (which I have read from various sources), I can't find anything which states that hormones can be converted from one form to another. I don't see any literature which suggests that estradiol can be converted into testosterone, as Antonia has suggested. Maybe I am looking in the wrong places for my information! I was hoping Antonia could lead me in the right direction. |
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Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:20 pm |
Lacy,
I don't know what you can make of this, it's more to do with males and hormones?
http://www.collegepharmacy.com/menshealth/andropause.asp
Currently there are several aromatase inhibitors on the market for prescription use as treatments for breast cancer. These aromatase inhibitors might block the conversion of testosterone to estrogen in men as well. There is also a natural aromatase inhibitor called chrysin. It can be found alone and in combination with other supplements used to improve prostate health,
such as saw palmetto. The main action of saw palmetto is to block the 5-alpha reductase from turning testosterone into DHT. There is some evidence that saw palmetto might also serve as an aromatase inhibitor.
It appears that neither testosterone nor dihydrotestosterone may be the problems, but estrogen. It is surprising to learn that the average 60-year-old male has more circulating estrogen in his bloodstream than the average 60-year-old female. Although estrogen might have numerous beneficial effects for menopausal women, excess amounts in "andropausal" men may appear to be catastrophic. |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:55 pm |
Just plug the words "hormone" and "convert" or "conversion" into Google and you'll see all kinds of hormones converting into other hormones..
I think the causes and effects of all of this are probably contained within an endocrinology text.
BF |
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Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:49 pm |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
Just plug the words "hormone" and "convert" or "conversion" into Google and you'll see all kinds of hormones converting into other hormones..
I think the causes and effects of all of this are probably contained within an endocrinology text.
BF |
I realize one thing if you put testosterone in, you get a lot pertaining to males.  |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:53 am |
Hi Lacy,
Regarding your statement ~ “I can't find anything which states that hormones can be converted from one form to another. I don't see any literature which suggests that Estradiol can be converted into testosterone, as Antonia suggested. Maybe I am looking in the wrong places for my information! I was hoping Antonia could lead me in the right direction.” I believe you are correct. I have read a lot about bio-identical hormones and have found Dr. Uzzi Reiss to be an invaluable source of information. He has written a number of books and also has a website and newsletter. I too have read that Testosterone can convert into Estradiol via the aromatization process. That is why some women never experience menopausal symptoms because their bodies are converting their Testosterone into Estradiol. I have never read that the reverse can occur. I have read that Estradiol can convert into Estrone (one of the three estrogens we have in our bodies, the other being Estriol which is most prevalent when a woman is pregnant.) DHEA can convert into Estradiol and Testosterone as well, albeit only slightly via the aromatization process. But it’s the DHT that actually causes the hair loss. Perhaps Antonia already had higher levels or sufficient levels of Testosterone in her body, and it was her own DHEA that was converting into Testosterone or perhaps she was taking a DHEA supplement. As for the birth control pill, the hormones in them are not bio-identical and will not be utilized properly in the body. So, of course, adverse effects are to be expected such as hair loss, bloating, fibroids, etc. Aprile |
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Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:04 pm |
Dark Moon,
Yes, but Testosterone is very important for women too. Not only can it help increase libido, it can increase lean body mass, stronger muscles, increased endurance, stronger bones, improved balance and hand-eye coordination, but also of equal importance: increased feelings of security, positivity and stability. I think its an important player for overall health in women. Of course, men should have much higher levels than women, just as men should have much lower levels of estrogen than women. 
Best,
Aprile |
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Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:19 pm |
Lacy, regarding the conversion to testosterone, this is something my doctor explained to me in some length. However, the precise details are now sketchy since this was a while back. I believe it involved some sort of back conversion or some such term to DHEA first. Let me see what I can find. My doc is now conducting clinical trials on pain therapy and is retired from being a GP. It makes sense to me though. When I was on the Pill (estradiol), my hair fell out and I was almost bald. This happened three times. It was believed to be progesterone until I was stuck on progesterone for another reason and my hair stayed put. When, years later, I tried testosterone, my hair fell again. After it had grown back in, I was put on Tri-est and Whoosh! out it went again. I had my hormones tested and the doc said that the elevated levels of estradiol were converting back to testosterone, causing the fall. I went onto straight estriol and no problems. All this time, I have used minoxidil too, except for when pregnant and on a couple of occasions to see if I still needed it. As soon as I have a few minutes off work I'll see what I can find.
OK, I'll look for more later but this from an acne site:
The idea of adding progesterone into the body is to balance up excessive estrogen over insufficient blood progesterone level. The androgenic effects become increased in this scenario of female sex hormone imbalances because the excess estrogen are converted into a kind of androgen (called androstenedione) in our adrenal gland. This chemical naturally found in body is the forerunner of testosterone.
There is also bigger conversion of excess estrogens into natural testosterone by the fat cells in the body; women with oestrogen excess tend to be overweight with fat cells, resulting in more testosterone conversion.
Therefore natural progesterone works by blocking the effects of rising androgen which are the result of excessive estrogen converted to testosterone. |
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Born in 1952. Blonde, very good skin. A few noticeable wrinkles. |
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Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:16 pm |
| Antonia wrote: |
Lacy, regarding the conversion to testosterone, this is something my doctor explained to me in some length. However, the precise details are now sketchy since this was a while back. I believe it involved some sort of back conversion or some such term to DHEA first. Let me see what I can find. My doc is now conducting clinical trials on pain therapy and is retired from being a GP. It makes sense to me though. When I was on the Pill (estradiol), my hair fell out and I was almost bald. This happened three times. It was believed to be progesterone until I was stuck on progesterone for another reason and my hair stayed put. When, years later, I tried testosterone, my hair fell again. After it had grown back in, I was put on Tri-est and Whoosh! out it went again. I had my hormones tested and the doc said that the elevated levels of estradiol were converting back to testosterone, causing the fall. I went onto straight estriol and no problems. All this time, I have used minoxidil too, except for when pregnant and on a couple of occasions to see if I still needed it. As soon as I have a few minutes off work I'll see what I can find.
OK, I'll look for more later but this from an acne site:
The idea of adding progesterone into the body is to balance up excessive estrogen over insufficient blood progesterone level. The androgenic effects become increased in this scenario of female sex hormone imbalances because the excess estrogen are converted into a kind of androgen (called androstenedione) in our adrenal gland. This chemical naturally found in body is the forerunner of testosterone.
There is also bigger conversion of excess estrogens into natural testosterone by the fat cells in the body; women with oestrogen excess tend to be overweight with fat cells, resulting in more testosterone conversion.
Therefore natural progesterone works by blocking the effects of rising androgen which are the result of excessive estrogen converted to testosterone. |
I am glad the doctor's explanation made sense to you because it made absolutely no sense to me. I think you found your above quote from this source:
http://synergy-acne-esthetics.weebly.com/birth-control-acne-pills.html
Actually, that paragraph is under the subheading Natural progesterone cream. I can't find anything to verify the accuracy of their statements and they give no references. I did find this though at T-Vox; I consider it a fairly reliable source of information about hormones:
Urban Legend #1: 'Excess' estrogens can be back-converted to androgens (MTF)
The Particulars
As everyone hopefully remembers from Hormonal A&P-101, estrogens are converted from androgens. Androstenedione is converted to estrone and testosterone to 17β-Estradiol, both via the enzyme aromatase. Oft repeated urban legend has it that 'excess' estrogens in the bloodstream (what exactly might constitute 'excess' is open to interpretation) will be converted back to androgens (presumably androstenedione and/or testosterone).
The Truth
There is no known back-conversion pathway. The conversion from androgens to estrogens via aromatase is strictly mono-directional. Anyone claiming that estrogens can be back-converted to androgens would need to demonstrate a viable back-conversion pathway for their claim to be taken seriously.
I also found this; it seems to verify the T-Vox statements and is presented in image form, making it easy to understand the conversions of hormones. Just follow the direction of the arrows!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Steroidogenesis.svg
My last post on the topic of conversion of estrogen/estradiol to testosterone. Sorry for taking the thread off topic! |
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Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:28 pm |
| Not off topic at all Lacy. I am most interested in this apparent conversion and the fact my doctor telling me this was the first I'd heard of it. I am still researching it as I have read it elsewhere and it makes a whole lot of sense as regards my personal situation. That said, in my cursory surfing earlier today I saw nothing concrete. I'll try to get hold of my "old" doc and see if she has refs. |
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Born in 1952. Blonde, very good skin. A few noticeable wrinkles. |
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Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:16 am |
Thanks Lacy and Antonia for this interesting discussion and I am interested in what your doc may have to say..we mostly know of androgens converting to estrogens, but not the other way around.. and the pathyway charts I've seen don't show an arrow in that direction.
I wonder under what conditions that could happen...
BF |
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Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:05 am |
| That's my concern, Barefootgirl... I heard yesterday eve that my doc is in Siena (lucky so-and-so). She is/was one of the first doctors here to recommend BHRT and to administer it. She seems well up on her endocrinology and, when she explained this, it wasn't the sort of thing even I, with my medical background could hope to remember. The strange thing was, as soon as I switched to estriol, I never had the problem again. I'm very sensitive to androgens, which is why my hair has become much thicker as I've grown older. (I use minox and a "root feeder" to help that.) I can't even have tribulus terrestris without my hair falling. |
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Born in 1952. Blonde, very good skin. A few noticeable wrinkles. |
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Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:01 am |
| aprile wrote: |
Dark Moon,
Yes, but Testosterone is very important for women too. Not only can it help increase libido, it can increase lean body mass, stronger muscles, increased endurance, stronger bones, improved balance and hand-eye coordination, but also of equal importance: increased feelings of security, positivity and stability. I think its an important player for overall health in women. Of course, men should have much higher levels than women, just as men should have much lower levels of estrogen than women.
Best,
Aprile |
Yes, I realize that, just pointing out it's not a great idea to use testosterone in a search engine, unless you want information about impotence, male pattern baldness, bodybuilding, male menopause................!  |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:15 am |
Found something here, but not much, in a site archived by the British Library, called Testosterone Deficiency Centre.
Effects of Excess EstrogenThe physiological effect of excess Estrogen is to suppress Luteinising Hormone (LH), which in turn, is supposed to stimulate the production of Testosterone vis a pulsatile response mechanism. It is easy to see therefore, how excess Estrogen can impact the Testicular and Pituitary health of men, as well as women. Perhaps it too should be measured as we grow up.
I'm not sure about the term "is supposed to" in there!
I should mention that Great Smoky Labs tested my estrogens and found that I had an excessive amount of circulating estradiol, which they suggested was due to the estriol plugging estrogen receptors, and this info was passed on to my doctor. |
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Born in 1952. Blonde, very good skin. A few noticeable wrinkles. |
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Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:23 pm |
Antonia, Are "The Effects of Excess Estrogen" that you have written about the same as Estrogen Dominance? I have been reading up on Estrogen Dominance and am really believing the symptoms are the same as mine. I am so happy This subject was opened up it is certainly an education in itself. Who said beauty is only skin deep? Us beauties are a force to be reckoned with! BTW, Love, your Blog.
I copied the following from Dr.Christine Northrup :
Here’s what you can do to decrease estrogen dominance: Increase nutrients in the diet: Take a high potency multivitamin/mineral combination.
Follow a hormone-balancing diet: Eat lots of fresh fruits and vegetables, adequate protein, and moderate amounts of healthy fat. Remember to get enough fiber. Estrogen is excreted by the bowel; if stool remains in the bowel, estrogen is reabsorbed.
Use transdermal 2% bioidentical progesterone cream: Many of the symptoms of estrogen dominance can be relieved with natural, bioidentical progesterone, available over the counter in a 2% cream (one-quarter teaspoon contains ~20 mg progesterone). Use one-quarter to one-half teaspoon 2% progesterone cream on skin (e.g., face, breasts, abdomen, hands) daily for two to three weeks prior to onset of period. If periods are irregular, use 2% progesterone daily, or from the full moon to the dark of the moon.
http://www.drnorthrup.com/womenshealth/healthcenter/topic_details.php?topic_id=118 |
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Too numerous to mention! |
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Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:08 pm |
| Hi Rmc. Thanks for the kind comment about my blog. We are getting nervous about our whole body shots for the AgeOff, lol! Don's terrified actually. Back to topic: I didn't write that quote... and I've never had estrogen dominance. I was just showing it as it mentions the possibility of estrogen converting to testosterone through some pathway or another. Dr. Northrup and Dr. Lee (deceased) are the experts on estrogen dominance and its symptoms. |
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Born in 1952. Blonde, very good skin. A few noticeable wrinkles. |
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Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:52 pm |
Am I mistaken about things here, I thought estrogen is dominant when still menstruating, drops as we enter perimenopause, bottoms when menopause hits? For men it happens also as they age their testosterone drops and estrogen becomes dominant?
What seems odd is the recommendation to use progesterone while still menstruating, unless blood work shows a woman's hormones are out of whack. |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:16 pm |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
What seems odd is the recommendation to use progesterone while still menstruating, unless blood work shows a woman's hormones are out of whack. |
I was put on the progesterone cream in my early 40's (still menstruating). It was supposed to help with the peri symptoms. It didn't do anything for me, so I quit using it. |
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Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:40 pm |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
What seems odd is the recommendation to use progesterone while still menstruating, unless blood work shows a woman's hormones are out of whack. |
I was put on the progesterone cream in my early 40's (still menstruating). It was supposed to help with the peri symptoms. It didn't do anything for me, so I quit using it. |
I understand what you are saying, the way the quote from the article reads almost seems that it would be used by women generally. It just struck me odd. I know woman who have been put on BC pills to try and regulate their cycle, so I guess it's just as I said the way it read? Maybe just how I read it. |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:01 am |
| I only know that I received HRT around my mid 40's and through most of my 50's until the "great scare". I felt and looked great. As I grew more "estrogen dominant" when I was taken off of HRT I have had more thyroid ups and downs, more fatigue, more migraines, more fuzzy thinking, more fibromyalgia flair ups, more rosacea flare ups ,more bladder infections and less libido (don't tell anyone, that is between us gals )and I wear a size 8-10 and this passed yr. I've developed love handles!!Since I started to use the estriol on my face, it has kept the rosacea at bay, or at least helped. And the combo of that and RetinA has been amazing for smoothing out wrinkles and thicken the skin. I really believe the more I read that the addition of progesterone cream may help to balance things out. At least in my case, I'm going to give it a try. |
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Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:46 pm |
| The great scare with HRT was due to the synthetic progesterone -- progestagen. Clever how Big Pharma spells it almost the same. Why suffer? Just get an estradiol patch and some ProGest from Whole Foods. You'll be right as rain! Of course, find a doctor who knows how to monitor your blood levels and prescribe the proper dose. |
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