Facial Aging Is More Than Skin Deep
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free skin care · Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:20 pm

A look at underlying changes in bone structure:

http://www.physorg.com/news188568383.html

This would suggest trying to prevent further bone loss and would render most skin tightening programs (lasers and especially facial exercise) marginal at best.

I believe this is important information. There really is only so much you can do on your own when it comes to maintaining a firm jawline (and preventing jowls).

There's lots we can do on our own to maintain clear, wrinkle free complexions but beyond that - we need to call in the reinforcements,lol and unfortunately $$.

BF

free skin care · Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:41 pm

Thanks for posting this BF. This study seems similar to earlier work done by Richard & Woodward which has been discussed previously at EDS on various threads. You can view that study here:

http://journals.lww.com/op-rs/Abstract/2009/09000/Analysis_of_the_Anatomic_Changes_of_the_Aging.11.aspx

For another view of the Langstein & Shaw study (with comparative CT scans) the press release from the University of Rochester can be seen here:

http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/news/story/index.cfm?id=2800

I am not sure if the "old female" and "young female" are composites or actual subjects. Not sure if I understand the authors conclusion either (they refer to chin implants). Personally I am not a fan of between-group study designs such as this, but I assume no longitudinal data is available.

free skin care · Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:14 pm

Barefootgirl wrote:

A look at underlying changes in bone structure:

http://www.physorg.com/news188568383.html

This would suggest trying to prevent further bone loss and would render most skin tightening programs (lasers and especially facial exercise) marginal at best.

I believe this is important information. There really is only so much you can do on your own when it comes to maintaining a firm jawline (and preventing jowls).

There's lots we can do on our own to maintain clear, wrinkle free complexions but beyond that - we need to call in the reinforcements,lol and unfortunately $$.

BF

Actually, the new version of FlexEffect has a component that focuses on bone loss. And even if it did nothing in that arena, facial exercise can still help mask bone decline with larger muscles, so I would personally say that it is better than "marginal." Especially since I just started facial exercising again a couple of weeks ago (via Safetox) and have already seen significant improvement in my jowls and marionette lines in that short period of time. I saw the same result when I did Ageless (and also saw them come back when I stopped exercising. Embarassed

)

Quote:

FlexEffect® was the first to develop Facial Resistance Training in 1979. Today it is the first to offer two new disciplines... Jolting® for addressing facial bone atrophy and Cross Stretching® for replacing lost collagen and elastin.

http://www.flexeffect.com/

My sister has also been getting skin tightening laser treatments in NYC for years...her skin actually looks too tight even with ultra low bofy fat, so they do work. (I don't feel the same way about LEDs though)

I think there is definitely a point where you need to pull in the big guns and $$$, but I wouldn't classify the impact of lasers and facial exercise as marginal. Instead, I think they can both help bridge the transition to needing something more invasive due to bone loss.

free skin care · Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:34 pm

I think those who do facial exercise long-term would agree with you Bethany - effects are better than marginal. The theory is that the use of muscles also affects bone in a positive way. Flex Effect does have a component called jolting to help activate bone rebuilding (osteoblasts). The question then is does this work? Exercise or impact on body bone works to reduce risk of osteoporosis and to keep bone strength so the theory is that you can keep bone on the face remodeling and maintaining as well. Let's face it - we don't exercise the bone on our face so it is going to change as part of aging. The action of facial exercise and hopefully bone massage will stimulate bone activity.

Anyone who has dentures will tell you they lose tremendous amounts of bone in the maxilla and mandible because they are not longer using teeth which impact the bone. Use it or lose it - that's what happens.

free skin care · Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:14 pm

bethany wrote:

Actually, the new version of FlexEffect has a component that focuses on bone loss. And even if it did nothing in that arena, facial exercise can still help mask bone decline with larger muscles, so I would personally say that it is better than "marginal." Especially since I just started facial exercising again a couple of weeks ago (via Safetox) and have already seen significant improvement in my jowls and marionette lines in that short period of time. I saw the same result when I did Ageless (and also saw them come back when I stopped exercising. Embarassed

)

But doesn't the Safetox numb the muscles rather than exercise them?

Incidentally, I've been using the Slendertone Face which does exercise the muscles - but have not seen any results at all.

In regards to bone loss of the face - as we age, don't we suffer bone loss over the entire body? This is why we actually shrink and become shorter as we get older.

free skin care · Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:23 pm

Another thought - we know that exercising the body is good for bone loss. And to do that we can move all our limbs and torso. However, the skull is basically a stationary object - apart from nodding and shaking and wiggling the jaw. I can't see how it can be exercised per se. Yes, I do the Tanaka massage, but still - I look upon that as massage and not bone exercise. Can you see where I'm coming from or does that sound stupid?

free skin care · Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:31 pm

Keliu wrote:

bethany wrote:

Actually, the new version of FlexEffect has a component that focuses on bone loss. And even if it did nothing in that arena, facial exercise can still help mask bone decline with larger muscles, so I would personally say that it is better than "marginal." Especially since I just started facial exercising again a couple of weeks ago (via Safetox) and have already seen significant improvement in my jowls and marionette lines in that short period of time. I saw the same result when I did Ageless (and also saw them come back when I stopped exercising. Embarassed

)

But doesn't the Safetox numb the muscles rather than exercise them?

Incidentally, I've been using the Slendertone Face which does exercise the muscles - but have not seen any results at all.

In regards to bone loss of the face - as we age, don't we suffer bone loss over the entire body? This is why we actually shrink and become shorter as we get older.

Keliu, Safetox numbs the front muscles, which then causes others to become more active (so it's indirect exercising, lol). A couple of excerpts from their site:

Quote:

Safetox inhibits the muscles that cause wrinkles and stimulates the muscles that open up the face and lift the skin.
...
Safetox® sessions modify the anteroposterior muscular balance of the head. With the anterior muscles relaxed, it is the posterior muscles (posterior auricular and occipital muscles) that become dominant. These pull on the ears and the skin of the forehead, opening up the face, eradicating tension lines and reducing deep wrinkles.

free skin care · Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:34 pm

Keliu wrote:

In regards to bone loss of the face - as we age, don't we suffer bone loss over the entire body? This is why we actually shrink and become shorter as we get older.

Correct!

Keliu wrote:

Another thought - we know that exercising the body is good for bone loss. And to do that we can move all our limbs and torso. However, the skull is basically a stationary object - apart from nodding and shaking and wiggling the jaw. I can't see how it can be exercised per se. Yes, I do the Tanaka massage, but still - I look upon that as massage and not bone exercise. Can you see where I'm coming from or does that sound stupid?

The jaw area and cheek bones are where the biggest loss occurs....maybe this means we should eat more to keep them moving? Very Happy

free skin care · Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:46 pm

Keliu wrote:

Another thought - we know that exercising the body is good for bone loss. And to do that we can move all our limbs and torso. However, the skull is basically a stationary object - apart from nodding and shaking and wiggling the jaw. I can't see how it can be exercised per se. Yes, I do the Tanaka massage, but still - I look upon that as massage and not bone exercise. Can you see where I'm coming from or does that sound stupid?

I agree Tanaka is more massage than bone work but Flexeffect pressure massage is another thing all together. Pressure is applied to the face and entire skull to stimulate bone thickening. It is totally new thinking but who wants a shrunken head

...not me...although it might match everything else in the end! Laughing

free skin care · Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:51 pm

Keliu wrote:

Another thought - we know that exercising the body is good for bone loss. And to do that we can move all our limbs and torso. However, the skull is basically a stationary object - apart from nodding and shaking and wiggling the jaw. I can't see how it can be exercised per se. Yes, I do the Tanaka massage, but still - I look upon that as massage and not bone exercise. Can you see where I'm coming from or does that sound stupid?

No, not stupid at all since we certainly cannot "exercise" the face the same way as the body but the facial bones can be used exercised to create tension and stress and decrease bone break down and loss.
A certain amount of bone loss can never be changed (body or face but you can slow the loss and try to maintain a higher level of bone with exercise)

Wolff's Law: (from flex effect) If loading on a particular bone increases, the bone will remodel itself over time to become stronger to resist that sort of loading. The converse is true as well: if the loading on a bone decreases, the bone will become weaker due to turnover (breakdown with less buildup).

Bones that are not used *see* no need for remodeling or building of the cells, body or face.

Facial bone, just like our body skeleton is highly responsive to use and also to disuse. Bone is capable of adjusting to strength and mass both in proportion to the stress (exercise, push/pull, etc) placed on it.

excerpt From Flex Effect: During facialbuilding the facial muscles that are attached to bone vigorously pull on the bone causing the bone to thicken and strengthen. Without such exercise (or stress) the same bone given it's normal tendencies would (over time) grow thinner and weaker

......(just like the body and just like the mandible/maxilla without the teeth to provide the stress during chewing).

free skin care · Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:54 pm

Toby wrote:

I agree Tanaka is more massage than bone work but Flexeffect pressure massage is another thing all together. Pressure is applied to the face and entire skull to stimulate bone thickening. It is totally new thinking but who wants a shrunken head

...not me...although it might match everything else in the end! Laughing

Gosh, I didn't think of that. Maybe we'll all end up little shrunken, withered up old ladies with heads like watermelons!

Still can't see how even pressure on the bone and provide real exercise though.

ETA - Sistersweets - your post arrived as I was writing mine - I'm thinking over what you said. Thanks.

free skin care · Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:57 pm

bethany wrote:

My sister has also been getting skin tightening laser treatments in NYC for years...her skin actually looks too tight even with ultra low bofy fat, so they do work. (I don't feel the same way about LEDs though)

Sorry to go off on a tangent but what kind of laser does your sister get that is effective? Sounds promising.

free skin care · Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:14 pm

amonavis wrote:

bethany wrote:

My sister has also been getting skin tightening laser treatments in NYC for years...her skin actually looks too tight even with ultra low bofy fat, so they do work. (I don't feel the same way about LEDs though)

Sorry to go off on a tangent but what kind of laser does your sister get that is effective? Sounds promising.

Here is his website...the laser is the eMAX. Since she doesn't read this, I'll tell you that the skin looks tighter, but it sure doesn't seem to have done anything for collagen growth. She has tight skin, but it doesn't look all that great..she still has some wrinkles and crepe paper flesh in places. I think she is probably a classic example of too much "cooked" flesh via using lasers 2-3x times a year. That's another reason for me not being too up on Fraxel.

http://www.drsobel.com/laser_procedures.htm

Please PM me if you have any more questions so that we can keep this thread on target. Smile

free skin care · Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:36 pm

There are a couple of ways of stimulating the bones in our face to prevent bone loss. Both are tai chi exercises. One simply consists of clicking our upper and lower teeth together for a minute or two so that the vibrations stimulate the jaw bone. This exercise is specifically to help firm up loose teeth, or prevent teeth becoming loose. The other is simply to use our knuckles to gently tap all over our face, once again the vibrations will stimulate the bones to help prevent bone loss. Obviously you only tap lightly, not heavily enough to hurt or bruise yourself.

free skin care · Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:39 pm

sister sweets wrote:

excerpt From Flex Effect: During facialbuilding the facial muscles that are attached to bone vigorously pull on the bone causing the bone to thicken and strengthen. Without such exercise (or stress) the same bone given it's normal tendencies would (over time) grow thinner and weaker

......(just like the body and just like the mandible/maxilla without the teeth to provide the stress during chewing).

Well if that's the case, I'm thinking that the Vaculifter might very well be performing some kind of bone exercise. Because when I use it I can really feel the tug of the flesh and muscle underneath.

free skin care · Mon Mar 29, 2010 3:18 am

Although Deb Crowley did Flexeffect for thirty years she says she had no sag, but was noticing something changing in her face and it was due to bone loss...she then started the pressure massage and experienced a change for the better. So the thinking of the vaculift being stimulation to the bone similar to muscle building( although experiencing both I see them very different) it was still not enough to stimulate the bone thickening for Deb to have noticed something missing in her face. The pressure massage is different from anything I have done....and I have done a lot Rolling Eyes

I can easily see how it affects the density of bone production. Now I need to make sure I get the rest of my body going so I don't look like I have the BIG Head! Laughing

free skin care · Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:25 am

The point of my initial post was to inform and spur lots of discussion.

Thank you for the additional discussion which serves to further enlighten.

Thanks, BF

free skin care · Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:28 am

Do Fraxel and Pixel use the same technology?

Thanks, BF

free skin care · Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:51 am

This is very interesting.... as I'm definitely not looking forward to losing bone mass in my tiny pinhead face.

I remember reading that "weight bearing" exercise was best for building body bone mass - ie, running, doing stuff in the gym, as opposed to things like swimming, where you're not on your feet.

Anyone got any ideas how the "weight bearing" thing relates to facial bones and facial exercise? I'm still too lazy to do facial exercise, although if I thought it would build bone mass it might just get me started.

I do work out quite a bit, but I'm wondering if the bone building benefits stop at my neck ... I want to keep my cheekbones! And, yes, I just spent a few strange moments pondering how I could do "weight bearing" facial exercise Laughing

free skin care · Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:55 pm

It's not so much the weight baring but the jolt that a bone endures during certain movements that cause the bone to respond by remodeling.

Wikipedia offers some great examples:

* The racquet-holding arm bones of tennis players become much stronger than those of the other arm. Their bodies have strengthened the bones in their racquet-holding arm since it is routinely placed under higher than normal stresses.
* Surfers who knee-paddle frequently will develop bone bumps, aka exostoses, on the tibial eminence and the dorsal part of the navicular tarsal bone from the pressure of the surfboard's surface. These are often called "surf knots."
* Astronauts who spend a long time in space will often return to Earth with weaker bones, since gravity hasn't been exerting a load on their bones. Their bodies have reabsorbed much of the mineral that was previously in their bones.
* Weightlifters often display increases in bone density in response to their training.
* Martial artists who punch or kick objects with increasing intensity (or of increasing hardness) to develop striking power to damage opponents, often display increases in bone density in the striking area.
* This process is known as cortical remodeling.

************************************************
It's true that Deb felt she needed something a bit extra... And as we researched it became very clear, that although she had great muscle tone, and her tissues were really healthy, the only thing that she hadn't aggressively addressed was bone loss. And it is Wolf's law that really impressed on us that it was necessary to somehow effect the load on the bone. Of course, resitance does this (same as weightlifting), but not as much as an older person likely needs. (We also found studies that indicate that women can lose up to 20% bone within 5-6 years of menopause.) Which would lend some reasoning for Deb to start noticing that things just weren't like they used to be.

We wondered if there really was a way to go beyond the resistance. If you could have seen us in our "try this, try that" sessions you might have run for your life or laughed REALLY Hard! This is where Jolting, what everyone is referring to above, comes into play. The idea is to impact the bone as much as possible to cause it to remodel itself (as much as possible), when it would otherwise just atrophy like the muscles in our face do over time as well...

free skin care · Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:07 pm

ClaudiaFE wrote:

If you could have seen us in our "try this, try that" sessions you might have run for your life or laughed REALLY Hard! This is where Jolting, what everyone is referring to above, comes into play. The idea is to impact the bone as much as possible to cause it to remodel itself (as much as possible), when it would otherwise just atrophy like the muscles in our face do over time as well...

But what proof do you have that your "try this, try that" sessions are going to impact on the facial bones? I'm just a little concerned that Flexeffect has jumped on the current fad of bone exercise promoted by the Japanese.

And whilst I very much agree with the "use it or lose it" philosophy, I'd like to point out that probably our most used part of the body is our legs - and yet they tend to be the first thing that goes in old age.

free skin care · Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:30 pm

Keliu - I agree - it does seem like bone massage is an in thing right now. We've seen a lot of it on EDS forum lately.

Everything goes in old age -not just legs Laughing

Legs age just like the rest of us, but let's face it a lot of people don't use their legs when they get older. They get lazy - don't take the stairs, don't walk the extra couple of blocks and therefore they lose strength and stamina in general. It really can be about using it or losing it.

free skin care · Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:50 pm

Well, interestingly enough, we were working on this way before even hearing anything about the Japanese stuff that has been posted here recently. Also, from what I can tell with the japanese bone stuff is that they are claiming you can reshape your bones and face. Which is not logical to me at all. I have yet to figure out how one could reshape their bones. Seriously, wouldn't anyone with say severely bowed legs do that? Granted, they can be braced in the young while the bones are NOT hard yet. (turns out that trashes the knees though) I just can't figure how that's possible with hard bones.

Bone remodeling however? Our bones continue to do that, or just thin out... One or the other.

Really, we base our work on what has already been studied and proven... Like the studies that were listed at the start of this thread.

Which is the same thing that led Deb to the facial resistance training some 30 years ago... only NOW being accepted by many but certainly not all.

What I can tell you through experience, is that we are not experiencing any negative effects from our work... and we're already hearing great reports from the newbies... but even that is still too soon to tell from a scientific point of view.

With any luck... studies in the future.

And although I agree legs can be the first thing to go... as joints have often been abused during ones life... I've also seen plenty of pretty "older" legs! And they only belong to people that have taken care of them...

Tina Turner anyone???

free skin care · Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:17 pm

I would also like to say, for the record, I'm not trying to convince you to make a purchase. I just jumped into this topic as we're mentioned over and over again, and mostly, I do think we're going to be hearing a lot more about bone loss and how it really effects the appearance, perhaps way more than anything else... keep your eyes peeled over the next couple of years for this information...

The work we do is quite aggressive. And it really takes a little leap of faith to get into the hardcore stuff. What we do has to be something that you just resonate with. Further, we don't recommend the new stuff for newbies... (for those of you that have already purchased but for some reason haven't read that!) Wink

And you know, PERHAPS in all reality, you could be taking those bone pills (if they are still FDA approved... (seems like I've heard some talk that they are causing problems???) and perhaps not have anything to worry about)... I would most certainly be doing anything that is scientifically proven to maintain bone mass... Calcium, Vit D etc..

free skin care · Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:28 pm

Something I don't see mentioned is as the human race is living longer our bones may well "go" if not used and cared for by supplements, healthy diet and exercise. However what gives out faster by far are cartilage, tendons and ligaments, they are much softer tissues than bone and the main reason for knee and hip replacements amongst the elderly in our population.

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