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Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:12 pm  |
| Keliu wrote: |
| Any information on where the conditioned media is coming from. All the players seem to have some connection with Irvine California. I'd be interested in knowing whether Stemulation and AnteAge are getting their media from the same place. |
Keliu asked a great question above, and while the number of stem cell products on the market is rapidly growing, it sounds like many of them might be getting their cytokines from the same place.
I am hoping with this thread that we can figure out which products are getting their cytokines from the same place. Once you know that the special sauce is all the same, all that is left is figuring out which vendor has the other ingredients that you may or may not want in your serum. |
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Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:17 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
| DrJ wrote: |
Stemulation uses conditioned medium. I know because I was one who originally created that product (at least the stem cell part). I no longer have anything to do with that company. I consider that my first generation, but we are now working on a 4th generation.
We (myself and my colleagues at the stem cell institute) have spent 2 ˝ years in R&D, going way beyond what I did back then. The science has advanced considerably. |
bethany - StemEssence (essence of stem cells) was the old name for Stem Cytokines. That's what it was called years ago when Cellese sold it's early versions as ingredients to several product manufacturers. StemEssence was quite primitive in comparison to the way things are done now. If we only knew then what we know now. There were 13 subjects in the pilot study, there were only a few of the most illustrative in the retrospective pilot study I authored some years ago. I'll send you a copy. |
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Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:20 pm |
| bushy wrote: |
| Skippie wrote: |
| bushy wrote: |
I have had a very detailed response from Stemulation regarding any links between it and Stemulance and any concern I had has now gone. Unfortunatley, the email is private so I can't reproduce it but the person who was originally instrumental in getting the formulation for the stem cell ingredients is with Stemulation and Stemulance is the copy cat. The person from Stemulation does not really know what Stemoxyl is and is not sure what, if any, stem cell ingredients are in Stemulance.
Based on the ingredients listed previously, Stemulation should have a coma separating HMSC Cultured Media(stem cell extract) and Glycerin.
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I wonder why Laurie Nicoll with Stemulation filed an application for a trademark for Stemoxyl then. You can do a word search in the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office database at http://tess2.uspto.gov/ and pull the record up. There are actually two applications, one by Laurie Nicoll and a more recent one which has the name of Rob Shively, co-founder of Stemulance. Also, searching for all the corporations involved in the database provided by the Nevada Secretary of State's Office where all the corporations are registered links the two names together (Laurie Nicoll & Rob Shively). Here's the link to the record for the company Pure Body Elements, Inc. (this name is all over the applications for trademarks for Stemoxly: http://nvsos.gov/sosentitysearch/CorpDetails.aspx?lx8nvq=p2P3hGdPwept5wloZ55fvw%253d%253d&nt7=0 |
I was probably a bit misleading when I said the person from Stemulation did not know what Stemoxyl was. I should correct it and say that I was actually told that they could not say what was actually in Stemulance's product.
Laurie Nicoll founded Pure Body Elements and directed the formulation of the stem cell ingredients using doctors and scientists active in stem cell research. Rob Shively was later invited as a partner. As a result of some problem, Nicoll and Shively parted company. Pure Body Elements was abandoned and Shiveley formed Dermatech Research and Nicoll continued with her own company, Cole Martin. Cole Martin have filed legal proceedings against Dermatech Research for trademark infringement. This might be why Stemulance does not list Stemoxyl in their ingredients list.
As for what the HMSC Cultured Media(stem cell extract is) I have been advised that it is the capture of the growth factors and cytokines produced during the cell proliferation process in the lab. These growth factors and cytokines are the messenger signals to trigger response from healthy cells.
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Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:23 pm |
| DrJ wrote: |
There is no shortage of intrigue in the early days of all this (and even some very funny stories). It's all fully documented and tucked away, a complete paper trail, complete with artifacts like the first serum ever concocted, should the Smithsonian ever want to preserve the early history of stem cell skin care. But I prefer to keep this the low drama thread, so we will leave it all in the deep archives. The bottom line is StemEssence was our first commercial product, we sold it as an ingredient to three different entities, who formulated it into products of their own. One of them co-sponsored the retrospective study, which Cellese conducted. But retrospective studies have inherent limitations. The prospective AnteAGE study, has more internal and external validity.
StemEssence was a first generation product, and the whole field has advanced in leaps and bounds since then. Many others have joined the fray, variations on a theme. We have early indications of a major market acceptance and uptake forming, which will help drive further innovation. So, its all working out for the good, we think.
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Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:27 pm |
| Tiny wrote: |
I am amazed, it seems the maker of this product (Stemulation), had not one but 2 employee's (one a partner) that ran off with her product and started their company. The other a consultant named Dr. J. Sanderson, ran off and started one too. I feel sorry for this lady. I found this information out when I asked her about some recent pictures posted.
It now also appears Reluma had the same problems, one a plastic surgeon now sells lumineesee (spelling sry) and then now the AQ guy, if I remember right, had some connection with them. [edit: it is actually Luminesce]
Guess there is NO loyalty in skincare at all. It's too costly to actually sue if your company isn't making a fortune yet. The court costs alone would sink any company.
It appearss ISCO and Reluma didn't borrow from anyone. |
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Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:33 pm |
So let's start the questions:
1. Who is using Adipose and who is using Bone Marrow cytokines?
Invitrix Reluma - Adipose
Cellese AnteAge - Bone Marrow
Stemulation - ?
AQ - ?
Jeunesse Luminesce - ?
ISCO Lifeline -
Please weigh in if you know, since I am not familar with all of these.
2.a - Who is sourcing the Adipose cytokines?
2.b - Who is sourcing the Bone Marrow cytokines?
3. Who can we get to help us figure out if there is really a difference between all these products? Initial ideas (please provide more!):
- Dr. Leslie Baumann
- Niki from FutureDerm
- ??? |
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Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:38 pm |
I believe ReLuma uses their own Lab, so they source their own.
About Invitrx:
Invitrx Therapeutics, Inc. is a biotechnology company specializing in the culture and engineering of adult stem cells by which we develop innovative products and therapies that are used in aesthetics, wound closure, and healing as well as plastic and reconstructive surgery.
Cellese web site:
Academic Collaborations
Cellese is fortunate to have access to a world-class academic stem cell research facility at a nationally recognized university.
The picture has been removed of the UCI Lab, but on the Cellese thread, he has said thats the Lab and on his own site he showed the building as the lab, until perhaps yesterday. In fact the whole site is different in regards to information, including anyones names, they are now missing. |
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Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:44 pm |
This place features somewhere in the equation:
Sue & Bill Gross Stem Cell Research Center:
http://uci.edu/2010/05/feature_gross_hall_100511.php
The third photo is featured on the Cellese website. |
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Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:49 pm |
WAS |
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Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:53 pm |
That now takes me to the University Of California-Irvine website, but not long ago??? |
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Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:54 pm |
If you scroll down to "Published Articles and Clinical Studies" on the AQ website, there is a study on Adipose stemcells for hair growth. So I'm presuming that is what is in their skincare serum, but I'm not sure.
http://www.aqskinsolutions.com/gf-technology/
I'm sure I saw the doctors name linked with Irvine California - but now I've forgotten where I read that. |
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Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:00 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
If you scroll down to "Published Articles and Clinical Studies" on the AQ website, there is a study on Adipose stemcells for hair growth. So I'm presuming that is what is in their skincare serum, but I'm not sure.
http://www.aqskinsolutions.com/gf-technology/
I'm sure I saw the doctors name linked with Irvine California - but now I've forgotten where I read that. |
Here is the email I received from Invitrx about that issue:
| DarkMoon wrote: |
Response to my email from Invitrx:
Diem Vo diem@invitrx.com
Hi XXXX,
Lacey brings up a very apt concern. I would like to reassure her and others which may have the same feelings towards our skin care line. Our anti-aging serum has been on the market for about 10 years now and sold close to 500,000 units. Our product will not stimulate hair growth in undesirable locations and here's why: Our product's growth factors and cytokines present in the stem cell conditioned media stimulates further cell signalling specific to the target area (ie dermal skin cells when applied topically to the skin). Furthermore, hair growth will only occur where active hair follicles exist such as applying the hair product to the scalp. Our products do all have the same underlying active ingredient and they differ slightly with other ingredients to create our various products in our skin care and hair care line.
If you have further questions, please feel free to contact us.
Thank you,
Diem |
Thread went over to here:
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=45705&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=225 |
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Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:10 pm |
So has the Sue & Bill Gross Stem Cell Research Centre been removed from Cellese? Because now they have this:
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An important collaborator in our mission is Frontiers in Bioscience, a non-profit research firm located in Irvine, California, whose principal areas of research are cellular aging and cancer cell metabolism.
http://anteage.com/research-facilities-partnerships/ |
http://www.frontbiosci.org/ri/ |
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Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:24 pm |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
If you scroll down to "Published Articles and Clinical Studies" on the AQ website, there is a study on Adipose stemcells for hair growth. So I'm presuming that is what is in their skincare serum, but I'm not sure.
http://www.aqskinsolutions.com/gf-technology/
I'm sure I saw the doctors name linked with Irvine California - but now I've forgotten where I read that. |
Here is the email I received from Invitrx about that issue:
| DarkMoon wrote: |
Response to my email from Invitrx:
Diem Vo diem@invitrx.com
Hi XXXX,
Lacey brings up a very apt concern. I would like to reassure her and others which may have the same feelings towards our skin care line. Our anti-aging serum has been on the market for about 10 years now and sold close to 500,000 units. Our product will not stimulate hair growth in undesirable locations and here's why: Our product's growth factors and cytokines present in the stem cell conditioned media stimulates further cell signalling specific to the target area (ie dermal skin cells when applied topically to the skin). Furthermore, hair growth will only occur where active hair follicles exist such as applying the hair product to the scalp. Our products do all have the same underlying active ingredient and they differ slightly with other ingredients to create our various products in our skin care and hair care line.
If you have further questions, please feel free to contact us.
Thank you,
Diem |
Thread went over to here:
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=45705&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=225 |
DM, I am confused...what does this have to do with any of the questions we asked above, and Keliu's AQ post? Keliu was specifically addressing the type of cytokines used by AQ, and specified where she found that based on the name of the study.
We already know that RL uses adipose cytokines, this thread is not about hair growth issues, and your post is about RL (not AQ). If you are going to participate, I would please ask that you post relevent, related info to specific to what we are addressing.
Anything else should stay on the appropriate product thread where it was previously shared. |
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Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:27 pm |
Here is what I know about ISCO (International Stem Cell Corporation). Lifeline Skin Care is a subsidiary of ISCO. ISCO is a publically traded company and their main business is focused on advancing its human parthenogenetic stem cell technology towards finding treatments for blinding diseases of the eye, liver disease, diseases of the nervous system and diabetes. Parthenogenesis (parthenos meaning "virgin" and genesis meaning "birth") utilizes unfertilized human eggs to create parthenogenetic stem cells (hpSC) that can be immune-matched to millions of persons of differing sexes and racial backgrounds. A relatively small number of hpSC lines could provide sufficient immune-matched cells to cover large parts of the world’s population.
I believe that ISCO may have been running out of money so they created the skin care subsidiary with the intent of using the Lifeline sub to help fund that main research arm. So the source of the Lifeline stem cells is unfertilized human eggs AND there is no conditioned medium involved. Lifeline is breaking up the stem cells, throwing away any bad stuff, and taking the good stuff – which would be cytokines and proteins and I think amino acids - OR SO THEY SAY. Apparently the whole idea of lycing (which is basically breaking the stem cell open and extracting it’s “stuff”) is iffy at best – according to DrJ and DragoN.
The good news is that Lifeline is the sole manufacturer and distributor or the product and they do not license the brand name, the technology, the stem cell extracts or proprietary ingredients to any other company. |
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Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:34 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
So has the Sue & Bill Gross Stem Cell Research Centre been removed from Cellese? Because now they have this:
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An important collaborator in our mission is Frontiers in Bioscience, a non-profit research firm located in Irvine, California, whose principal areas of research are cellular aging and cancer cell metabolism.
http://anteage.com/research-facilities-partnerships/ |
http://www.frontbiosci.org/ri/ |
Very interesting. I have to say that I was NOT wowed when I looked over their website. And is it just me, or does the name on the front of the building look photoshopped? It is almost like they are trying to prove that they exist? Plus they are begging for money?
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| Frontiers in Bioscience research institute in aging and cancer was launched in 2011. The mission of the institute is to find cure for cancer , identify pathways for reversal of aging and to provide a forum for public education and fund raising. Scientists at the institute will examine innovative non-radiotherapeutic and non-chemotherapeutic approach for treatment of all solid human tumors. New ideas that can reverse the age induced damage to DNA and cell organelles will also be pursued. The institute will also launch a rejuvenation clinic for slowing down the speed of aging. Interested individuals can contact the institute for further information. The institute will be funded through tax deductible donations, fund raising events, and educational programs. Galleries listed below participate in fund raising through providing artworks that are gifted to philanthropic donors. |
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Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:38 pm |
Great info shared already....keep it coming!
BTW, please note that we are NOT criticizing any manufacturers/vendors on this thread, so no one should feel a need to defend a product. (yay!!!) This is just about picking apart the sourcing details to find those that may have the same secret sauce.  |
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Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:45 pm |
Keliu, Rileygirl posted this link on the AQ skincare vs. reluma thread. This is where you saw the information about Irvine CA. Dr. Ahmed Al-Qahtani is the founder and creator of AQ skincare.
http://www.fmhs.uaeu.ac.ae/Homepages.asp?id=ahmedq&pgid=555 |
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Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:51 pm |
Updated info:
1. Who is using Adipose and who is using Bone Marrow cytokines?
Invitrix Reluma - Adipose
Cellese AnteAge - Bone Marrow
Stemulation - ?
AQ - Adipose
Jeunesse Luminesce - ?
ISCO Lifeline - unfertilized human eggs/no conditioned medium
Please weigh in if you know, since I am not familar with all of these.
2.a - Who is sourcing the Adipose cytokines?
Invitrix Reluma - sources their own
AQ - ?
2.b - Who is sourcing the Bone Marrow cytokines?
Cellese is working with Frontiers in Bioscience |
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Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:01 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
So has the Sue & Bill Gross Stem Cell Research Centre been removed from Cellese? Because now they have this:
| Quote: |
An important collaborator in our mission is Frontiers in Bioscience, a non-profit research firm located in Irvine, California, whose principal areas of research are cellular aging and cancer cell metabolism.
http://anteage.com/research-facilities-partnerships/ |
http://www.frontbiosci.org/ri/ |
Very interesting. I have to say that I was NOT wowed when I looked over their website. And is it just me, or does the name on the front of the building look photoshopped? It is almost like they are trying to prove that they exist? Plus they are begging for money?
| Quote: |
| Frontiers in Bioscience research institute in aging and cancer was launched in 2011. The mission of the institute is to find cure for cancer , identify pathways for reversal of aging and to provide a forum for public education and fund raising. Scientists at the institute will examine innovative non-radiotherapeutic and non-chemotherapeutic approach for treatment of all solid human tumors. New ideas that can reverse the age induced damage to DNA and cell organelles will also be pursued. The institute will also launch a rejuvenation clinic for slowing down the speed of aging. Interested individuals can contact the institute for further information. The institute will be funded through tax deductible donations, fund raising events, and educational programs. Galleries listed below participate in fund raising through providing artworks that are gifted to philanthropic donors. |
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I just looked at the cached version of the partnerships page from 7/13...it used to say Frontiers in Bioscience, but it had the pic of the big building on it.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:-g6bWSp50VMJ:anteage.com/research-facilities-partnerships/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
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Collaboration with Stem Cell Institute
Cellese is fortunate to have access to a world-class academic stem cell research facility, funded through State of California and philanthropic funds. This prestigious laboratory is home to several of the field’s most celebrated researchers.
Collaboration with Frontiers in Bioscience
Our mission at Cellese is “translating bioscience advances into products consumers can trust – products that deliver results and value.” An important collaborator in our mission is Frontiers in Bioscience, a non-profit research firm located in Irvine, California, whose principal areas of research are cellular aging and cancer cell metabolism.
Originally founded as an online bioscience journal in 1995, Frontiers in Bioscience recently opened its state-of-the-art research facility with research staff recruited from world leading laboratories in the study of aging. Sophisticated instrumentation and advanced cellular investigational approaches enable researchers to observe changes in cellular behavior in real time at a scale of just a few cells. Such remarkable research capabilities enable Cellese to maintain precise quality control, advance the understanding of cell cytokines, and create techniques to obtain optimal clinical responses and improvement.
The equipment and expertise of this collaboration provides Cellese access to a world-class research institute in the profoundly important areas of cancer and aging. Scientific discoveries will expand our intellectual property portfolio and accelerate development of new products in skin care and other disciplines. The collaboration of Cellese and Frontiers in Bioscience will ensure Cellese products are the most technologically advanced available. |
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Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:01 pm |
In regard to Stemulation - the site states that Laurie Nicoll learned about the healing aspects of stem cells when she was working as a Business Development Officer at a stem cell research company - but it doesn't give the name.
http://stemulation.com/laurie-nicoll
So maybe all we need to do is ask Laurie where she used to (or still does) work. |
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Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:06 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
In regard to Stemulation - the site states that Laurie Nicoll learned about the healing aspects of stem cells when she was working as a Business Development Officer at a stem cell research company - but it doesn't give the name.
http://stemulation.com/laurie-nicoll
So maybe all we need to do is ask Laurie where she used to (or still does) work. |
Here is her Linkedin profile...she worked at Pro Stem BioTech for less than a year in 2008.
http://www.linkedin.com/in/laurienicoll |
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Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:18 pm |
Check out this woman...maybe she can help validate some of the things we have been told about adipose vs bone?
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Dr. Deisher is an internationally renowned expert in the field of adult stem cell therapies and regenerative medicine, bringing 17 years of practice in senior scientific and corporate leadership positions concerning research, discovery, production and commercialization of human therapeutics. Tracy has earned numerous prestigious honors and awards for her pioneering scientific discovery and her distinguished scientific research has resulted in 23 patents issued in her name with such illustrious biotech organizations as Amgen, where she was named Principal Scientist, ZymoGenetics, Repligen and Immunex.
Dr. Deisher’s discoveries, particularly in the fields of cardiovascular biology and stem cell research, continue to be considered some of the most significant in the scientific community, including her initial discovery and identification of adult heart stem cells. She
has published numerous scientific manuscripts as well as materials for lay people on the factual aspects of adult stem cell research successes. Dr. Deisher is often sought out for her candid and rational look at the scientific research that is being done in the field of regenerative medicine and stem cell research and is a frequent international lecturer and guest speaker in the area of stem cell technology and regenerative medicine. Dr. Deisher graduated with honors and distinction from Stanford University, and obtained her Ph.D. in Molecular and Cellular Physiology from Stanford University.
http://www.soundchoice.org/leadership.html |
It looks like she is now President and CEO at AVM Biotechnology.
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/theresa-deisher/8/981/36b
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Welcome to AVM Biotechnology.
Advancing game-changing technologies for regenerative medicine, oncology and fully human biologics.
Our products address significant market opportunities and unmet medical needs by optimizing the clinical and commercial utility of Adult Stem Cells. However, we are not a stem cell company - we make the enabling technologies that make stem cells work better.
http://www.avmbiotech.com/home.html
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I'm shameless...think I should try and contact her? |
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Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:20 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
Very interesting. I have to say that I was NOT wowed when I looked over their website. And is it just me, or does the name on the front of the building look photoshopped? It is almost like they are trying to prove that they exist? Plus they are begging for money? |
Hi Bethany, Just FYI, I'm pretty sure I know where that building is in Irvine. A lot of the commercial and office space is owned and managed by The Irvine Company owned by a guy named Donald Bren. He is one the Fortune 100 list of richest people in the world. My husband company rents space for his office from them and Donald Bren does not allow any signage on his office buildings no matter how big your are. Just the building number. So that is why I think they did photoshop the name on the building. I don't think it was meant to mislead. Otherwise it just looks like you took a picture of some building.
Also a lot of these companies are start up companies. If you look on Reluma site they are asking for investors starting at $50,000(a very small amount by stockbrokers standards). Lifeline is also a penny stock looking for investors. As more and more of these companies start up all of them will be looking for funding. If they can't get grants they will look for funding from individuals( before IPO's) or donations. I don't view this as a bad thing because it stimulates competition and more and better research(ie: new products or procedures) |
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Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:20 pm |
That photo looks the same as this one which is of the Sue & Bill Gross Stem Cell Research Centre.
http://stemcell.uci.edu/ |
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