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Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:04 am  |
| m1rox wrote: |
Just interested to ask. For those of you who had good results, are you in the more mature age range? ie over 40. Because I read in another thread that perhaps the results are not so good for those who are younger and also those who do not have much in the way of skin problems. Those seem to be the ones who have less improvements and importantly more side effects. I must say I have had a good experience so far with the Neutrogena CP (although it is supposedly mild) but I am in the (ahem) more mature age range so perhaps not so prone to having bad "uglies" (lol maybe I already have "uglies" so there's no more "uglies" to show up  |
Hi mlrox,
I'm not quite sure what you mean "less improvement meaning more side effects"? That sounds like a bad rumor to me?
If anything, the less damaged the skin, the less noticeable the changes will be using any skin care products. So for someone who is relatively young, you won't see dramatic changes using any products. But if you are younger & have had any acne-related problems, you will bring the damage closer to the surface which makes things look worse for a period before it improves.
The more damaged the skin either from aging or acne-related will determine the rate of your improvement. Also it will determine the course of action on how aggressive you may need to be. Lots of variables to consider.
Hope that helps!  |
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Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:03 am |
mlrox - I remember reading threads like that one (I'm sure that WAS one of them) before I tried CPs. That's why I went with the slow approach. That worked out really well for me. And I didn't have a lot of issues - mostly firmness and a few acne scars. My neck was showing aging, but I didn't buy CPs for that area and only used it there later (with good success).
I think that if someone is on the fence about CPs, they should really use the slow approach. Buy the sample size bottles too - the CP Serum is only about $22 and last for months. The serum is also easily diluted. But, then you should also be using some sort of exfoliative to get better results - AND have patience (they do work slowly). JMO |
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early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:06 am |
| Sistersweets wrote: |
Foxe - What did you use on your eyelids to get them to firm up the way you wrote in one of your first posts?
And another question: What did you mean with regards to the body lotion - not a great smell? Does it have a bad smell? I'm thinking of getting this for the summer - use with the sunscreen. Is it better to get one of the scented ones?
I love patchouli but was thinking of jasmine or the ylanglyang. |
On my eyelids – I started out with Super GHK (a sample size), then moved to Night Eyes Premier, then Night Eyes. I’m back on the Super GHK and haven’t seen additional improvement, so will go back to the Night Eyes (it’s cheaper). I had not been using many products before that – perhaps a bit of Kinerase occasionally? I did see a big improvement with the GHK and the improvements continued with each new product.
The Body Lotion I use (only in the summer)is the unscented one (it comes in the combo pack with the Suntanning Lotion). Not having an additional scent – it’s not unpleasant, just not a nice one. Personal preference, I guess. DH and I both don’t like the smell of the Suntanning Lotion though. I do think adding an essential oil is a good idea – I just happened to pick up ylang ylang myself for that specific purpose. |
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early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:07 am |
| Bethany wrote: |
The Tin Peptide used in the nail product is the same as the one in Folligen For Blondes which I LOVE. You get a free nail treatment when you apply the hair product and massage in with your fingers! |
This is a bit of interesting information – thanks for sharing that one. Can you tell me if the Folligen for Blondes is a very thick cream? The Nail Peptide is (and seems to thicken up over time). What has it done for your hair? |
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early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:09 am |
| Star Model wrote: |
I introduced Retin-A (.025 - .05) a few yrs back. Only use it every 3rd night. I like to use Exfol in the AM followed by SS/Emu/DayCover, then LacSal in the eve on the nights I don't use Retin-A.
On the eyes, I started with Super GHK/ then Night Eyes Premier/ CP Serum/ then Super CP Serum over a course of time. Emu as my moisturizer. It took about a year for any real noticeable change to take place. Now I use SS/Emu lightly in the AM only. That's it!
I also like to REST my skin at least once a week by using P&R Cream only. I have found a nice balance for myself. |
You’ve got a really good routine, Star. I’m not that consistent yet on what I do (except apply CPs daily). I do need to figure out the best method for fitting in exfoliation. My problem is my skin keeps changing up so much since I have to keep dealing with oily/acneic skin. I just started using spirolactonate and hope that can control the hormonal influence on the oil (and hence –the breakouts) for me. I used Bactrim for 3 ½ months before this and my skin was looking PERFECT! The spiro is suppose to take 6 wks to work and I’m not sure I can hold on during the transition. |
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early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Mon Mar 29, 2010 3:42 pm |
| foxe wrote: |
| Bethany wrote: |
The Tin Peptide used in the nail product is the same as the one in Folligen For Blondes which I LOVE. You get a free nail treatment when you apply the hair product and massage in with your fingers! |
This is a bit of interesting information – thanks for sharing that one. Can you tell me if the Folligen for Blondes is a very thick cream? The Nail Peptide is (and seems to thicken up over time). What has it done for your hair? |
It is very thick...I just squeeze a thin line down numerous parts in may hair, massage into my scalp (thus the free nail treatment), and then top with emu oil.
Basically, the Folligen for Blondes helped stop my shedding and caused new hair to grow far faster than other hair loss options I have tried in the past. It is also a great option for eyebrows since it is colorless. I use it whenever I start going through a stress or seasonal induced shed.
However, as I mentioned on other threads, I am NOT a fan of the copper-based Folligen products. The blue/green in the product reacted with my reddish blonde hair color, and caused a horrid brown color to appear everywhere the Folligen had touched my hair. It cost me hundreds of dollars to have corrected, and took about 6 months before the halo of horridness disappeared. But the tin-based products rock! |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:33 pm |
| foxe wrote: |
| Star Model wrote: |
I introduced Retin-A (.025 - .05) a few yrs back. Only use it every 3rd night. I like to use Exfol in the AM followed by SS/Emu/DayCover, then LacSal in the eve on the nights I don't use Retin-A.
On the eyes, I started with Super GHK/ then Night Eyes Premier/ CP Serum/ then Super CP Serum over a course of time. Emu as my moisturizer. It took about a year for any real noticeable change to take place. Now I use SS/Emu lightly in the AM only. That's it!
I also like to REST my skin at least once a week by using P&R Cream only. I have found a nice balance for myself. |
You’ve got a really good routine, Star. I’m not that consistent yet on what I do (except apply CPs daily). I do need to figure out the best method for fitting in exfoliation. My problem is my skin keeps changing up so much since I have to keep dealing with oily/acneic skin. I just started using spirolactonate and hope that can control the hormonal influence on the oil (and hence –the breakouts) for me. I used Bactrim for 3 ½ months before this and my skin was looking PERFECT! The spiro is suppose to take 6 wks to work and I’m not sure I can hold on during the transition. |
Foxe, Do you think part of your problem may be from when you went off CPs onto another skincare program? I thought I read that you were a long-time user of Retin-A which generally works on the oil for someone your age.
It may only be a matter of time to readjusting your skin to Retin-A.
Let's Hope So! |
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Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:48 pm |
| Star Model wrote: |
Foxe, Do you think part of your problem may be from when you went off CPs onto another skincare program? I thought I read that you were a long-time user of Retin-A which generally works on the oil for someone your age.
It may only be a matter of time to readjusting your skin to Retin-A.
Let's Hope So! |
That did seem to cause a problem for me back when I first tried 302. I had a slew (waay more than a slew, actually) of new blackheads appear, and my esty thought I should've eased off of Retin A more slowly than I did. We reintroduced it - at twice/wk. (Still no good - but was more an issue of actually using the 302 line than not using Retin A more often).
I have always seemed to have pretty oily skin, even using Tazorac (which is suppose to be the driest one). My current derm thinks it's all hormones and this is the reason for trying spiro. I did the Bactrim as a short term therapy to get some clear skin as my skin had raised havoc after 6 mos of 302. I had also tried some 'natural'& OTC attempts to clear my skin before the anti-biotic, but those weren't working well enough for me.
With so many different attempts to get clear skin - it's no wonder I haven't settled onto a simple routine yet. |
_________________
early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:34 pm |
I am new to CPs, I've been doing some reading this past week and would like to try some but am still confused (and a little scared  ). I am hoping you all can help me decide what to try. I am 35 years old. I have fine lines on my forehead, around my eyes and the beginning of 11's between my brows. I also suffer from some hormonal acne mostly along the jaw line but occasionaly on other areas as well. I normally have combination skin but have recently started using Retin A Micro so now my skin is on the dry side. I have a clarisonic which I use occasionaly to buff off the flakey skin (would this be enough exfoliation)? I'm scared of getting the "uglies" so understand about taking it slow but I am wondering if starting with Super GHK would be too slow? Would I be better off starting with the CP serum and just diluting it? And how do you know when to bump it up to the next level? I am so glad you started this thread right when I needed it! |
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Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:51 pm |
It was this thread that caused me stop CP's. I was having good luck with them - adjusting nicely and everything. Most everyone I know who uses them is very happy with them. Even on that thread there was one person I recall who had difficulty and I'm not convinced it was due to CP's in retrospect. But I was vulnerable and didn't know a lot of people using them except for Nanci and NCN. Goes to show you need to evaluate things from lots of perspectives to make decisions.
karianne - you might want to get a sample size of the SuperGHK to start (smaller and a good starting point) and also a regular size of the CP Serum to adjust into. You can dilute this in the beginning (dilution schedule posted on page 1 of this thread) and work your way to full strength. I'd also get some EMU to put over and some Exfol if you can. AlphaHydrox makes a product that would work for exfoliating and it may be less expensive - you can find at TJMaxx sometimes or ebay. |
_________________
Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:27 am |
Great to have this comprehensive thread. The question I have been asking (and if it's answered here, I missed it!) is how long it takes to see anything. I have been using the CPs for several months now, including rolling in the Super CP serum. Do I need to move to the 2x to get results?
I am over 40 and have sun damage and old acne scars. I've been looking forward to seeing that old stuff come to the surface and vanish, but so far, nothing. |
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Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:28 am |
karianne - I agree w/ sis that the CP Serum is a good place to start. Skin Bio (and several other places) have a 1 oz size that would be a good place to start. That's the one I started with and it lasted several months. Skin Bio also offers free samples with a $50 purchase. You can get Emu Oil or Squalane Oil from them and an exfoliator (Exfol or LacSal). I have also seen some deals on products from TJ Maxx, sis. It's a luck-of-the-draw at the one by me, though.
Hermosa - I think the time it takes to see results is different for everybody. I saw some with in a few months, but CPs do work slowly, so patience is needed. The SC2X is what I use on acne scars - it's a strong one. You may only want to spot treat with that though. Do you use an exfoliator? Tell me what other products you are using (cleanser, exfoliator, ect.) TIA |
_________________
early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:33 am |
| I'd actually love to use CPs in the morning instead of vitamin C, BUT I'm worried about which sunscreens I can use. I need lots of protection as I live in the south and work outside in my yard a lot. I know you're not supposed to use zinc with copper, and I have my doubts that the day cover product would provide enough protection. Can anyone recommend a good sunscreen to pair with CPs? |
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Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:37 am |
| Skippie wrote: |
| I'd actually love to use CPs in the morning instead of vitamin C, BUT I'm worried about which sunscreens I can use. I need lots of protection as I live in the south and work outside in my yard a lot. I know you're not supposed to use zinc with copper, and I have my doubts that the day cover product would provide enough protection. Can anyone recommend a good sunscreen to pair with CPs? |
Skippie - I use MMU for my SS and my makeup. Mine has an SPF 20. I've also used some Clinique City Block in the past. They list the main ingredients as TiO2 and ZnO but not everything - so I stopped using that. Dr Pickart has said you can apply a BHO like Emu over the CP to act as a protective layer under a ZnO SS, so you could try that too.
I've never tried the Day cover, but if it's anything like the Suntanning Lotion, it would work pretty well. It has a bunch of other anti-oxidants in it that also offer some protection, and the CPs themselves do offer protection as well. For everyday use - it would be just fine. I'd add some extra over it for a full day in the sun, tho.
Edit to add: I think that if you work in your yard a lot, the Day Cover PLUS a P&R Lotion at the END of the day would be a really good combo. When I use the Suntanning Lotion PLUS the Body Lotion - any pinkness I might have would be gone by the next morning. |
_________________
early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:28 am |
| foxe wrote: |
| Skippie wrote: |
| I'd actually love to use CPs in the morning instead of vitamin C, BUT I'm worried about which sunscreens I can use. I need lots of protection as I live in the south and work outside in my yard a lot. I know you're not supposed to use zinc with copper, and I have my doubts that the day cover product would provide enough protection. Can anyone recommend a good sunscreen to pair with CPs? |
Skippie - I use MMU for my SS and my makeup. Mine has an SPF 20. I've also used some Clinique City Block in the past. They list the main ingredients as TiO2 and ZnO but not everything - so I stopped using that. Dr Pickart has said you can apply a BHO like Emu over the CP to act as a protective layer under a ZnO SS, so you could try that too.
I've never tried the Day cover, but if it's anything like the Suntanning Lotion, it would work pretty well. It has a bunch of other anti-oxidants in it that also offer some protection, and the CPs themselves do offer protection as well. For everyday use - it would be just fine. I'd add some extra over it for a full day in the sun, tho.
Edit to add: I think that if you work in your yard a lot, the Day Cover PLUS a P&R Lotion at the END of the day would be a really good combo. When I use the Suntanning Lotion PLUS the Body Lotion - any pinkness I might have would be gone by the next morning. |
Skippie I use MelaShade from Lovelyskin.com It is similar (identical maybe) to a very expensive facial sunscreen that was raved about on the ZO skincare thread (called Oclipse).
It does have both titanim Dioxide and zinc oxide and there is a full ingredient list - I think it's on the site. 30 spf. I plan on using this over Day Cover on the really sunny days up North. MelaShade is much cheaper than the ZO product. And lovelyskin has deals from time to time.
foxe - Can I ask why you make the suggestion for this combo...the Day Cover PLUS a P&R Lotion at the END of the day would be a really good combo. |
_________________
Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:39 am |
I used to use Super CP Serum about two years ago and then, like allot of people, I got the heebie jeebies and stopped.
I'm also a battler of SH and someone (I think it might have been you Foxe) told me to get Exfol Serum. So I'm now applying the Exfol, waiting 30 mins, then applying undiluted SS. I've also just started with the Two Timing Tightener, so that goes on next - then I put on Retin-A 0.25% Gel, wait 30 mins and finally apply Emu Oil. Phew!!! Incidentally, I was using 0.05% Retin-A Cream once every other day, but then I ordered the 0.25% Gel by mistake - so I'm using it every day.
Now that I see that all written down, it looks a bit drastic but anyway, I'm pretty happy with my skin - the SH has flattened out a bit. I think the Exfol has really helped.
Incidentally, I think Skin Biology incorporate CoQ10 into their Emu Oil now. I've been doing this for ages - I buy the CoQ10 from Skinactives and just add it to my Emu Oil. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:50 am |
| Keliu wrote: |
I used to use Super CP Serum about two years ago and then, like allot of people, I got the heebie jeebies and stopped.
I'm also a battler of SH and someone (I think it might have been you Foxe) told me to get Exfol Serum. So I'm now applying the Exfol, waiting 30 mins, then applying undiluted SS. I've also just started with the Two Timing Tightener, so that goes on next - then I put on Retin-A 0.25% Gel, wait 30 mins and finally apply Emu Oil. Phew!!! Incidentally, I was using 0.05% Retin-A Cream once every other day, but then I ordered the 0.25% Gel by mistake - so I'm using it every day.
Now that I see that all written down, it looks a bit drastic but anyway, I'm pretty happy with my skin - the SH has flattened out a bit. I think the Exfol has really helped.
Incidentally, I think Skin Biology incorporate CoQ10 into their Emu Oil now. I've been doing this for ages - I buy the CoQ10 from Skinactives and just add it to my Emu Oil. |
Hi Keliu - Do you have impressions thus far on the two-timing tightener? Is it doing anything for you? I've looked at it on the Skin Bio site and it's tentatively on my order as a sample.
And while I'm at it - The difference between using Exfol cream and the Exfol Serum: Do you make the choice based upon whether your skin is dry or oily? I want to get this too. Skin Bio has a combination pack but it has the cream in it and does not give you the choice of getting the serum which I think would be better for me. I wonder if I called they would switch it out for me. |
_________________
Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:51 am |
| Skippie wrote: |
I'd actually love to use CPs in the morning instead of vitamin C, BUT I'm worried about which sunscreens I can use. I need lots of protection as I live in the south and work outside in my yard a lot. I know you're not supposed to use zinc with copper, and I have my doubts that the day cover product would provide enough protection. Can anyone recommend a good sunscreen to pair with CPs?
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Skippie, I too have finally given up on juggling my SkinCeuticals Vit C/E/Ferulic into my CP routine. I prefer to use my Skin Signals in the AM. I have used DayCover for years as my last step before MMUP. The Titanium Dioxide protection for me is enough for daily use and even when working outdoors.
Here is another product I may try this summer for extra protection. It is right in line with the Spirulina Thread - Algae based.  I no longer use any ZO in my MMUP or in my SS since it interferes with CPs. Titanium Dioxide is a better choice with CPs:
Helioguard 365 - Natural Sunscreen for UV-A Skin Protection Against Photo-Aging
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Helioguard 365 is a natural UVA sunscreen from Porphyra Umbilicalis
The principal etiologic factor in premature skin aging is UVA. In contrast to UVB, UVA is not much dependent on daytime and season and penetrates rather well through clouds and window glass. Our skin needs therefore help against the daily exposure to UVA.
Cosmetic ingredients that we use every day should be absolutely safe. Mycosporine like amino acids, UVA sunscreens produced by certain algae, corals and zooplankton, are a natural and safe alternative to synthetic UVA sunscreens. These organisms that live in shallow water or at the beach where they are exposed to extreme UV radiation, produce the most powerful UV-absorbing substances in nature. Mindy found in the red alga Porphyra umbilicalis, better known as Nori, a traditional sea vegetable, a rich source of mycosporine like amino acids. |
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Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:04 am |
| sister sweets wrote: |
Hi Keliu - Do you have impressions thus far on the two-timing tightener? Is it doing anything for you? I've looked at it on the Skin Bio site and it's tentatively on my order as a sample.
And while I'm at it - The difference between using Exfol cream and the Exfol Serum: Do you make the choice based upon whether your skin is dry or oily? I want to get this too. Skin Bio has a combination pack but it has the cream in it and does not give you the choice of getting the serum which I think would be better for me. I wonder if I called they would switch it out for me. |
I used TTT for a bit when it 1st came out. Especially nice around the eyes. But since my skin has tightened over the yrs from continued CP use I no longer need the DMAE which is more of a temporary tightening.
Sweets, Exfol serum is better for oily skin and the cream for normal or dry. There is a new product out that I have on order called Power 10. It is supposed to be better for those with a more sensitive skin type which I don't have, but I will try it anyway. I'd like to try this on my body to help exfoliate to get ready for summer. |
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Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:08 am |
An algae based sunscreen - Awesome.
SM - I can see why you use the DayCover on a regular basis. I also did not realize ZO in a sunscreen would interact with the CP's, but of course it would Duh.
What MMup do you use?
Thanks for your post - it turned on a few lightbulbs for me. |
_________________
Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:12 am |
| sister sweets wrote: |
Hi Keliu - Do you have impressions thus far on the two-timing tightener? Is it doing anything for you? I've looked at it on the Skin Bio site and it's tentatively on my order as a sample.
And while I'm at it - The difference between using Exfol cream and the Exfol Serum: Do you make the choice based upon whether your skin is dry or oily? I want to get this too. Skin Bio has a combination pack but it has the cream in it and does not give you the choice of getting the serum which I think would be better for me. I wonder if I called they would switch it out for me. |
I've only been using the TTT for a week, so nothing to report yet. But it's a nice serum to apply - and one pump does the whole face so it's going to be economical.
Because I have SH, I don't like to use any creams - so that's why I chose the Exfol Serum. I also think I'm probably better off with the Retin-A Gel too. However, I wouldn't say my skin is oily, it's probably on the dry side. But I live in a very humid climate so that probably helps. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:04 am |
Star - Where do you purchase Helioguard 365?
I am not having luck finding a distributor.
Thanks.
| Star Model wrote: |
[
Here is another product I may try this summer for extra protection. It is right in line with the Spirulina Thread - Algae based. I no longer use any ZO in my MMUP or in my SS since it interferes with CPs. Titanium Dioxide is a better choice with CPs:
Helioguard 365 - Natural Sunscreen for UV-A Skin Protection Against Photo-Aging
| Quote: |
Helioguard 365 is a natural UVA sunscreen from Porphyra Umbilicalis
The principal etiologic factor in premature skin aging is UVA. In contrast to UVB, UVA is not much dependent on daytime and season and penetrates rather well through clouds and window glass. Our skin needs therefore help against the daily exposure to UVA.
Cosmetic ingredients that we use every day should be absolutely safe. Mycosporine like amino acids, UVA sunscreens produced by certain algae, corals and zooplankton, are a natural and safe alternative to synthetic UVA sunscreens. These organisms that live in shallow water or at the beach where they are exposed to extreme UV radiation, produce the most powerful UV-absorbing substances in nature. Mindy found in the red alga Porphyra umbilicalis, better known as Nori, a traditional sea vegetable, a rich source of mycosporine like amino acids. |
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_________________
Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:49 am |
| For those of you worried about ZO sunscreens, Nanci/NCN said she has used ZO sunscreen for years with CP's without any problems. Supposedly the concern was only about the pore size with that combo. |
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Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:04 am |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| For those of you worried about ZO sunscreens, Nanci/NCN said she has used ZO sunscreen for years with CP's without any problems. Supposedly the concern was only about the pore size with that combo. |
That's great to hear Riley, but can you tell me what you mean by pore size?
Thanks. |
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