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Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:32 am  |
| Wow...very interesting article, and of course, it makes sense. I never really thought about it. Kind of depressing isn't it?! At least we have "face fillers" to counter the bone loss. |
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Vehicle is a 1952 scratch and dent model....olive-ish, dry skin, long curly gray hair. Staples: Tazorac, 2mm Dermaroller, Anti Aging Light Stim, Devita Sunscreens, homemade C serums, some positive affirmations and whatever else it takes! Kicking and screaming the whole way... |
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Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:51 am |
| But we've also got FlexEffect which has exercises for the bone too and have been making such a difference to my own face. I've never considered bones stuff before, but on reading the book I realise how a lot of programs only focus on muscles, but if the bone goes, then the muscle goes with them... so its just as important to exercise the bones. Makes sense when we consider osteop. and all and menopause (as thats when I noticed I was definitely changing for the worst!). Luckily though it does seem that theres lots out there to counteract this, but I realise its early days yet. |
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Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:28 am |
| TheresaMary, I had not heard that about FE and bones. Could you elaborate? Of course I don't mean for you to describe the actual exercises, but perhaps explain a bit about the concept of exercising the bones. I have Loulou's Ageless, but that's not even remotely similar, is it? |
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Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:19 am |
bluugrass - Flex Effect's newest edition has a section for bone exercise. It is called jolting and the idea of the exercise is to stimulate facial bone to decrease absorption and loss.
There are other newer ideas also that deal with exercising skin as well as muscle tissue.
Very comprehensive program.
Sis |
_________________
Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:59 am |
| I noticed that people's facial structures do change with age. Look at Jennifer Aniston! If you watch the earlier episodes of Friends, her face was much softer, but now she got this really pointy squarish chin that looks like a witch. Her chin has become so prominent now, and it makes her face look too masculine. I thought she got a chin implant, but maybe it occurred naturally due to aging! She'll need a chin reduction instead. |
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Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:00 am |
This in addition to ss blocking out vitamin D too!
I'm going to start taking a vit D supplement daily, and wash it down with a big glass of full-fat milk! |
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Curent Regime: Cosmetic Skin Solutions CE Ferulic and Phloretin/ Revale Intensive Serum / NIA 24 Intensive Recovery Complex cream / Jojoba and Squalane oils / Avene Emulsion SPF 50 & Prevage City Smart SPF 50 / Skinceuticals Retinol 1.0/ Dermaroller / Facial exercises |
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Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:02 am |
Not just jolting, but there is also pressure reps and the pressure massage. Its using resistance to impact the bone to prevent it from reabsorbing. The skin technique is also one of my personal favs, but I've feeling changes in my face which I'm convinced are bone start to become stronger (and I've been past menopause for some time now).
Its definitely as Sis says a comprehensive program. I have Ageless too, but have found that nowadays FlexEffect is my preferred choice because it has muscle, skin and bone in it. Also it seems like Lou doesn't frequent her forum as much as she used to, so I'm not sure if she is looking at bone/skin techniques too perhaps. Lou used to be a trainer at FlexEffect though for a very long time. Whilst I like Ageless for the cheeks it gave me, it didn't do much else for me I have to say.
Also the new FE is getting rid of my NL's. Not that this was a goal, as in my family they are genetic for sure, my mother had them and so did my grandmother and theyve never been a big deal to me, but after doing the new stuff, I've found them starting to become less prominent. I'm one happy lady I can tell you!!! Now all I need to do is work out how to get my hands looking like Kassy and then there's no stopping me!!!! |
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Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:09 am |
| Sis - though with your knowledge, I'm really interested in what you think of the FE bone stuff? I mean, is it possible that this stuff will/wont work or are we fooling ourselves? With your knowledge, I know you've said previously about people without teeth losing bone, and I figure thats because of the loss of pressure to their jaws. Do you think that this is likely/unlikey to work? (Note: although I'm asking this question, I have no intentions of stopping from doing it, as I love the way it feels, but just want to know a little more about the sciency part!) |
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Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:01 pm |
So whatelse can we do to prevent bone loss? I don't quite understand how to exercise the bones. And if I massage hard on my bones, won't it like bruise my skin?  |
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Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:05 pm |
| Stardustdy wrote: |
| So whatelse can we do to prevent bone loss? I don't quite understand how to exercise the bones. And if I massage hard on my bones, won't it like bruise my skin? |
If you do not get 10-15 minutes a day in the sun make sure you take a Vitamin D. My endocrinologist told me to take 2,000 IU a day. I would start off slowly with Vitamin D. I started taking 2,000 IU daily and it gave me horrible diarrhea. Now I'm taking 1,000 IU daily and the diarrhea has stopped.
I'm actually probably getting 2,000 IU because my protein powder contains Vitamin D and my multi vitamin. I also drink milk.
I would recommended that you get your Vitamin D levels tested. Actually, I think it's a good idea for everyone.
Also exercise and eating right. I recently heard that pop leaches calcium from your bones. I'm glad I stopped drinking it! |
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Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:46 pm |
Yes, Soda leaches calcium from your bones - that is true.
And Theresa - that is right about teeth. Maintaining your natural teeth will keep the bone that surrounds them functioning and in tact. The body "tells" the bone it is needed. (To hold the tooth/maintain the tooth and also the pressure from the chewing process)
Without teeth the bone will wither (resorb) away due to not having a function. Even dentures with pressure from chewing will not keep the bone in tact and will not prevent continued resorption.
The good news for keeping your teeth is that you will maintain some of the structure of your facial area (maxilla and mandible) ... More so than someone who loses their teeth.
My thoughts about maintaining face structure with the pressure reps and jolting are this: First the physiology of why it should work: Just like exercising the body, when you stimulate bone (with pressure or tension, etc) it reacts. In a positive state bone will remodel and the oseoblasts (bone builders) will go into production and lay down bone. With the exercise of the facial bones, the hope is to stop or at least decrease the loss of bone.
On the less optimistic side -even with pressure you'll never keep the bone completely at what it was (at least I don't see how). When you consider the teeth compared to dentures - there is a limited amount as to what pressure will do. I do believe those who have dentures will maintain a little better bone than those who never use a denture. Still not the same as nature.
I think manipulating bone, tissue, muscle is a very positive way to keep blood flow healthy and to slow bone loss. (as well as building the muscle fiber which will help accomodate the loss of bone and fat). |
_________________
Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:45 pm |
| SkinCareJunkie wrote: |
| Stardustdy wrote: |
| So whatelse can we do to prevent bone loss? I don't quite understand how to exercise the bones. And if I massage hard on my bones, won't it like bruise my skin? |
If you do not get 10-15 minutes a day in the sun make sure you take a Vitamin D. My endocrinologist told me to take 2,000 IU a day. I would start off slowly with Vitamin D. I started taking 2,000 IU daily and it gave me horrible diarrhea. Now I'm taking 1,000 IU daily and the diarrhea has stopped.
I'm actually probably getting 2,000 IU because my protein powder contains Vitamin D and my multi vitamin. I also drink milk.
I would recommended that you get your Vitamin D levels tested. Actually, I think it's a good idea for everyone.
Also exercise and eating right. I recently heard that pop leaches calcium from your bones. I'm glad I stopped drinking it! |
Is 10-15 mins a day of the sun sufficient? I come from a warm and humid country with sun almost all year round, so I guess I wont be needing vitamin D? |
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23yr old Asian with combination skin prone to clogged pores. hyperpigmentation from pimples. uneven skintone, scars |
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Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:17 pm |
| Stardustdy wrote: |
| So whatelse can we do to prevent bone loss? I don't quite understand how to exercise the bones. And if I massage hard on my bones, won't it like bruise my skin? |
Weight bearing excercises are the type of excercises recommended to prevent bone loss (ie weight lifting). The excercises that have given the best results are those that are intense and somewhat fast (ie. you lift the weights at good speed).
This is because bones react to mechanical challenges. |
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37, light brown hair, green eyes, very fair skin. Oily T zone, broken capillaries... Current regime: Tretinoin 0.05% every night, hydroquinone 4% twice per day, lachydran every other day, random moisturizers and sunscreen |
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Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:34 am |
Thats interesting re speed - as I know I read somewhere that slower movements impacted the bone more - for that very reason that it is more intense and activates more bone than faster movements.
Josee what do you think about exercises designed for the skull like FlexEffect?
| Josee wrote: |
Weight bearing excercises are the type of excercises recommended to prevent bone loss (ie weight lifting). The excercises that have given the best results are those that are intense and somewhat fast (ie. you lift the weights at good speed).
This is because bones react to mechanical challenges. |
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Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:38 am |
| TheresaMary wrote: |
| Thats interesting re speed - as I know I read somewhere that slower movements impacted the bone more - for that very reason that it is more intense and activates more bone than faster movements. |
Hi TheresaMary,
I think by "speed" what I meant is that, comparing the same load (e.g. 10kg), it is better to do it faster than slower. So if you start with a load that's intense and you at the beginning you do it in medium speed, it's OK but you should work up to trying to do it faster.
There was a review published in 2009 that basically analyzed the published studies that are out there regarding bone mass and excercise. The reference is:
Guadalupe-Grau A et al. Exercise and bone mass in adults. Sports Med. 2009;39(6):439-68.
The conclusions were:
(i) Age and sex of the subjects. At prepubertal and young adult ages, sex differences are not so important, but at middle and older age, evidence from the literature suggests that women have to train at higher intensities than men to improve their bone mass, always keeping a security range to avoid injuries.
(ii) Choice and order of the exercises. Since bone adaptation is limited to loaded regions, exercise must be chosen to specifically act on the clinically relevant sites, i.e. lumbar and thoracic spine, whole hip, and especially greater trochanter, intertrochanteric and femoral neck regions. The easiest and safest way to load these regions is by using weight-lifting exercises like: leg press, leg extension, leg curl, squats, loaded back extensions, and some shoulder and arm exercises. If not contraindicated, the training programme should include impact exercises like jumping, jogging, stair climbing and sprinting. Impact exercises must be increased progressively to the maximal effort possible according to the subject’s specific capabilities. The kind of impact exercise included in the programme must be appropriate for the age of the participants, trying to keep the risk of fall as low as possible in the elderly. It must be taken into consideration that the osteogenic potential of jumping exercise is reduced in postmenopausal women, but postmenopausal women may respond well to strength training.
(iii) Intensity. To enhance bone mass the threshold intensity must be reached. This level has not been unequivocally established and may vary from subject to subject, probably being lower for subjects with already reduced bone mass. Most strength training programmes showing positive effects on bone mass have used intensities of 70–90% 1 RM, always following an appropriate progression from lower to higher intensities.
(iv) Frequency. Most studies with positive results have used 2–3 training days per week. However, good responses to jumping exercise sessions with frequencies up to 6 days per week have also been reported. Weight-bearing endurance exercise (30–60 minutes) can be carried out three to five times, or even on a daily basis, depending on training experience and tolerance.
(v) Volume. In weight-lifting programmes, the major muscle groups of the upper and lower extremities must be trained in a balanced way, without creating imbalance between agonist and antagonist. The number of repetitions per exercise must be close to maximal that can be performed with a given load and 2–3 sets should be completed, with 1–3 minutes’ resting periods in between. With regard to high impact training, there is no consensus in the literature on how many jumps must be performed, but depending on the subject’s tolerance, 50–100 jumps should be carried out each training day. Strength training combined with high impact exercise could have additive effects in some subjects.
(vi) Movement velocity. Although a progression from medium to high speed of movement is advocated at the start of the training programme, as soon as subjects are able to carry out the exercise safely, i.e. with proper biomechanical execution, movements must be performed focusing on achieving the maximal execution speed possible. Explosive muscle contractions are expected to elicit a greater osteogenic stimulus.
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I find weight lifting EXTREMELY boring but I do force myself to do it... it does help my running though so I can't complain. |
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37, light brown hair, green eyes, very fair skin. Oily T zone, broken capillaries... Current regime: Tretinoin 0.05% every night, hydroquinone 4% twice per day, lachydran every other day, random moisturizers and sunscreen |
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Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:49 am |
| TheresaMary wrote: |
Josee what do you think about exercises designed for the skull like FlexEffect? |
You'd have to give me a descriptions of the exercises that are designed for bone mass before I could say anything! |
_________________
37, light brown hair, green eyes, very fair skin. Oily T zone, broken capillaries... Current regime: Tretinoin 0.05% every night, hydroquinone 4% twice per day, lachydran every other day, random moisturizers and sunscreen |
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Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:01 am |
I'm not sure that they are designed for bone mass per se.
I mean do you think its possible to prevent bone loss from the skull using things like pressure/weights on the skull itself?
I know from the stuff I read they said that by doing the movement slowly (with say a 10kg weight) if you do it slowly it engages more bone and muscle because they kick in slowly, compared with a fast jerking motion (i.e. done quickly). I know with muscles, they often say to go up in little steps, and that by doing so you engage more muscle fibre and I thought I had read somewhere that studies were being done with women in their menopause years (sigh I remember those well) doing weight exercises for their bones found that if they did the movements slowly, not only did they strengthen muscles but this impacted their bones moreso.
When you say bones react to mechanical challenges surely even placing pressure on the bone is in itself a challenge isn't it?
| Josee wrote: |
| TheresaMary wrote: |
Josee what do you think about exercises designed for the skull like FlexEffect? |
You'd have to give me a descriptions of the exercises that are designed for bone mass before I could say anything! |
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Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:04 am |
Think it depends how hard your pressing and where your pressing. I know the FlexEffect bone exercises I'm loving.
I did try someone elses interpretation of another bone exercise system, and had disasterous results but realise this was my fault (although the poster never said she wasn't an English speaker and I thought I was getting the full instructions which later was revealed they were only her intrepretation of pictures).... but at least the FlexEffect instructions are all in English so in many ways I feel much better about doing the exercises.
| Stardustdy wrote: |
| So whatelse can we do to prevent bone loss? I don't quite understand how to exercise the bones. And if I massage hard on my bones, won't it like bruise my skin? |
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Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:12 am |
| TheresaMary wrote: |
I know from the stuff I read they said that by doing the movement slowly (with say a 10kg weight) if you do it slowly it engages more bone and muscle because they kick in slowly, compared with a fast jerking motion (i.e. done quickly). I know with muscles, they often say to go up in little steps, and that by doing so you engage more muscle fibre and I thought I had read somewhere that studies were being done with women in their menopause years (sigh I remember those well) doing weight exercises for their bones found that if they did the movements slowly, not only did they strengthen muscles but this impacted their bones moreso. |
Muscle unit recruitment follows the "size principle" first described by Henneman somewhere in the 70s. The "amount" of fiber muscles recruited depends on the "charge" (i.e. weight) not on the speed. The speed (and sometimes type of movement) will determine the type of fibers you recruit (slower motor units, vs. faster motor units).
Slow weight lifting (because of the sustained prolonged effort) tends to drive the muscle to exhaustion and thus is a more powerful stimulus for muscle increase.
But this is different from the case of weightlifting to gain bone mass. The mechanical stiumulus is the traction generated by the tendon on the bone. So an explosive, fast movement generates more tendon tension and traction and thus more stimulus for the bone.
I don't know but all the published studies I've read on excercise, BMD and post-menopausal women favored speed, but there might be others having different results.
This does not mean that doing slower weightlifting does not work though! It works too.
| TheresaMary wrote: |
| When you say bones react to mechanical challenges surely even placing pressure on the bone is in itself a challenge isn't it? |
| TheresaMary wrote: |
Josee what do you think about exercises designed for the skull like FlexEffect? |
It has to be an intense dynamic traction. For example, if I put a weight on my arm and just leave it there for some time every day, it will not increase my muscle mass.
So I really can't imagine any facial exercise that would generate that kind of traction. I guess if you pulled the muscles horribly strong it "could" work but the pull (given that facial muscles are inserted on the skin) would cause tears of the fibers. |
_________________
37, light brown hair, green eyes, very fair skin. Oily T zone, broken capillaries... Current regime: Tretinoin 0.05% every night, hydroquinone 4% twice per day, lachydran every other day, random moisturizers and sunscreen |
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Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:18 pm |
I have the original flex-effect from a few years ago, sitting in my closet!
What is the difference between the new and old flex-effect? tia.  |
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Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:50 am |
They are leagues apart in my opinion. I owned the second edition and the latest third edition and what stands our for me most (I'm a visual learner) is that you have a dvd with all the exercises on, not just a few of them.
Having said that, there are now some 30 exercises that are done daily, and they've done a timed cd so you can choose whether to do only 12 minutes or 24 minutes (and the only difference is 12 mins is 3 reps, and 24 minutes is 5). The've put variations in there so you keep the muscles getting.
Then they have advanced techniques like the bone stuff, and a technique for the skin which is kind of like a massage. Its worlds apart in my view, but I got to say I noticed results very early on with the 3rd edition and it feels much more comprehensive than the others.
| lipglossdoll wrote: |
I have the original flex-effect from a few years ago, sitting in my closet!
What is the difference between the new and old flex-effect? tia. |
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Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:03 am |
| Josee wrote: |
Muscle unit recruitment follows the "size principle" first described by Henneman somewhere in the 70s. The "amount" of fiber muscles recruited depends on the "charge" (i.e. weight) not on the speed. The speed (and sometimes type of movement) will determine the type of fibers you recruit (slower motor units, vs. faster motor units).
Slow weight lifting (because of the sustained prolonged effort) tends to drive the muscle to exhaustion and thus is a more powerful stimulus for muscle increase. |
But thats probably part of the problem if you ask me. With muscles you have fast and slow twitch fibres, and so whilst I agree with you re the size principle, the speed will differ greatly from person to person for their muscles, but this is very different for the bone isn't it.
| Josee wrote: |
But this is different from the case of weightlifting to gain bone mass. The mechanical stiumulus is the traction generated by the tendon on the bone. So an explosive, fast movement generates more tendon tension and traction and thus more stimulus for the bone.
I don't know but all the published studies I've read on excercise, BMD and post-menopausal women favored speed, but there might be others having different results. |
But when your doing fast movement tension, your also going to be engaging muscles too. Its just because I think there is a tendancy to try to do things quickly, and because of the speed you do it at, it actually involves less resistance doing it fast because although your moving the weight, its much more of a throwing motion than pushing motion. I know thats certainly been true for me. I need to dig out my book I have at home somewhere which talks more about why its better to go slowly with weights as there was some very technical discussion in there, but I thought it had something to do with stimulating the bone directly more by doing it slowly in comparison with faster motions.
| Josee wrote: |
| This does not mean that doing slower weightlifting does not work though! It works too. |
Sure I get that, would be nice to know if there is actually proper evidence behind the slow/fast movements that will help us all out.
| Josee wrote: |
| It has to be an intense dynamic traction. For example, if I put a weight on my arm and just leave it there for some time every day, it will not increase my muscle mass. |
Ok but what about if your really pressing the weight into the arm bones themselves. Although its not a dynamic traction movement, its surely going to stimulate the existing bone. I think Deb mentions something in the book about Wolf - and that bone will constantly remodel itself if its constantly met with increasing resistance (i.e. pressure). But if you stop the pressure and it gets no stimulus, then it will revert back to its previous unstressed state.
| Josee wrote: |
| So I really can't imagine any facial exercise that would generate that kind of traction. I guess if you pulled the muscles horribly strong it "could" work but the pull (given that facial muscles are inserted on the skin) would cause tears of the fibers. |
I'm not sure of the specifics, but I thought that most of the exercises were designed to tear the fibres, as thats the thing that starts the muscle of healing, and then it becomes stronger as a result. CM knows more about the anatomy side, maybe she can pop by and help us out as I'm sure she will be able to give you the technicals about the exercises more than me. I don't have the mind for them. |
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Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:59 pm |
| TheresaMary wrote: |
| But thats probably part of the problem if you ask me. With muscles you have fast and slow twitch fibres, and so whilst I agree with you re the size principle, the speed will differ greatly from person to person for their muscles, but this is very different for the bone isn't it. |
When you do weightlifting to get strong, you want to engage as many motor units as possible. The more motor units the better. Starting in the 1990s people thought that lifting weights slower was better because they felt more "tired" after lifting the weight and because studies had shown that there was a higher lactic acid concentration after slow weight lifting than at fast.
But then people started reviwing the research done and doing more research and realized that it was not the case. The slower weightlifting felt "harder" because either fast-twitching (FT) motor units were not recruited, or because even when FT were involved (as in 1RM efforts) the FT can only sustain a contraction for 15 seconds so they would become exhausted and not sustain the contraction, and because it increased contraction volume (i.e. total time in contraction). Explosive contractions require intended maximum concentric acceleration (IMCA), and thus increase the contraction intensity of a workout (J. Appl. Physiol. 74:359-368, 1993), and recruit more fibers even comparing it with the same load (J. Appl. Physiol. 74:359-368, 1993; J. Physiol. 123:214-224, 1954; J. Physiol. 264:865-879, 1977).
From a purely physics point of view, that more motor units are recruited with fast movement makes sense since contraction intensity is directly correlated with acceleration. And yes, while you are right that the speed will vary from person to person, in general the recommendation is to lift as fast as possible (though not so fast that one will increase the risk of injury) with loads close to maximal effort (1RM).
So to sum up, fast weightlifting will recruit more motor units, including FT fibers. You will then spend more energy (FT units are more energy inefficient so they spend more energy) (Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2007 Aug;39( :1291-301)
| TheresaMary wrote: |
| But when your doing fast movement tension, your also going to be engaging muscles too. Its just because I think there is a tendancy to try to do things quickly, and because of the speed you do it at, it actually involves less resistance doing it fast because although your moving the weight, its much more of a throwing motion than pushing motion. I know thats certainly been true for me. |
No. The resistance is independent of the speed and involves only the load. Any “feeling” you might have might have to do with the number of fibers recruited, or fiber exhaustion but it definitely has nothing to do with the resistance (see references above). Also if you’re doing the exercise so fast that it’s like a throwing motion it means that you are not putting enough load.
You should check any recent textbook in sports physiology. My sister-in-law (she’s a PhD in Sports Science) recommended “Physiology of Sport and Exercise” by Wilmore and others. I have not read it.
| TheresaMary wrote: |
| Sure I get that, would be nice to know if there is actually proper evidence behind the slow/fast movements that will help us all out. |
Yes I quoted in a previous post a systematic review that was done on this. A systematic review is when an author does a search to see all that has been written in the literature regarding a topic and then takes all the studies and summarizes the evidence. That systematic review is the one that recommends explosive movements.
Other studies include: Br J Sports Med. 2007 Oct;41(10):649-55 ; and J Appl Physiol. 2005 Jul;99(1):181-8. There are also a lot of animal studies that have shown that the strain rate is associated with bone generation.
| Josee wrote: |
| Ok but what about if your really pressing the weight into the arm bones themselves. Although its not a dynamic traction movement, its surely going to stimulate the existing bone. I think Deb mentions something in the book about Wolf - and that bone will constantly remodel itself if its constantly met with increasing resistance (i.e. pressure). But if you stop the pressure and it gets no stimulus, then it will revert back to its previous unstressed state. |
Actually research (and there are lots of papers on this) has shown that static load (i.e. pressing into the bone) at best doesn’t have any effect on bone growth and at worst it actually decreases bone growth (as an example, see: Bone. 2001 Aug;29(2):105-13.) .
| TheresaMary wrote: |
| I'm not sure of the specifics, but I thought that most of the exercises were designed to tear the fibres, as thats the thing that starts the muscle of healing, and then it becomes stronger as a result. CM knows more about the anatomy side, maybe she can pop by and help us out as I'm sure she will be able to give you the technicals about the exercises more than me. I don't have the mind for them. |
The micro-tears of the muscle help build muscle but that is totally different from building bone. While some facial exercises can potentially help build muscle, that does not mean that they can build bone. As I said before, for them to build bone, the pull would have to be so strong that it would actually be bad for the skin. Even if you did it with vibrations (some studies have found that certain high-frequency vibrations could help bone growth, though other studies have shown no effect), the vibrations could be good for the bone but not for the skin. This has to do with the fact that facial muscles are different than limb muscles because they’re attached to the skin, while the others are not. |
_________________
37, light brown hair, green eyes, very fair skin. Oily T zone, broken capillaries... Current regime: Tretinoin 0.05% every night, hydroquinone 4% twice per day, lachydran every other day, random moisturizers and sunscreen |
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