At my wit's end about sunscreens; HELP ME
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Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:07 pm

A while ago, I bought a sunscreen called Badger SPF 30+ Unscented Sunscreen. I thought I had found something that I could feel generally safe wearing. But now, after re-reading about micronized and nanoparticle zinc oxide, I'm finding it hard to formulate an opinion.

Now, I don't have links to any info I'm about to give, so bear with me.

Apparently, micronized and nanoparticle zinc oxide interact with the sun differently than with large particle sized zinc (unless I'm mistaken. Feel free to correct me). Now, according to studies, zinc of this size, can produce harmful free radicals. Of course, this is only a concern if they penetrate deep into the lower layers of the skin. Ok, GREAT. However, the only studies indicating that they don't penetrate skin refer to healthy skin. I know I read somewhere that it's different for people with acne or rosacea (I have acne, whoopie). So shoot, now I'm freaked out. However, according to Badger, they (did) coat their zinc with Triethoxycaprylylsilane. I've read that zinc coated with silicone maintains photostability (although not all the way), and helps prevent penetration through the stratum corneum. However, I've only really seen those claims attached to dimethicone. So I have no idea what the hell I'm even doing with my face anymore.

Also, if anyone knows how long it takes for micronized or nanoparticle zinc oxide to penetrate the skin, please let me know!

(Sorry if this is all over the place; I'm just so lost and confused about sunscreens that I came here to seek solace)

free skin care · Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:59 am

I understand your frustration. I still haven't found a fave sunscreen, for similar reasons you discuss: safety/stability, quality of sun protection, and cosmetic elegance.

So my attitude has been (for several years now) to just pick a sunscreen that doesn't actively irritate my skin or break me out, to use it faithfully every day, but not really trust it... that is, stay out of the sun and keep the sun off my skin as much as possible.

free skin care · Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:49 am

Yeah, I'm still on the hunt for a good sunscreen. I'm currently looking into cliniderm protectant lotion, but I haven't been able to find it yet. Plus I have some other products I want to try first.

But to ease your mind a bit, almost all sunscreens will turn into harmful radicals when introduced to sunlight. This is why using antioxidants along with your sunscreens is so important. No matter how stable your sunscreen claims to be, the fact is that sunlight WILL make it unstable - that's why you are advised to reapply. You should also use antioxidants to battle these free radicals, so you should look into that. Hope that helps!

Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:31 pm

@rockhugger: IF ONLY I COULD. But having a boyfriend who has a baby makes staying inside hard lol I wish I was a vampire, then I could lock myself up in my coffin during the day. What are you using for a sunscreen btw? Do you use any topical antioxidants? I know vitamin c and e are suppose to be very good for enhanced photoprotection, etc, but I'm having a hard time finding a basic one that isn't riddled with a ton of stuff whose photostability I don't know of.

@oasisjc: YEAH. I've been trying to find some stable topical antioxidants of vitamin c and e but it's been hard. Either too much other crap I'm unsure of or I'm not exactly sure if the packaging is appropriate (the one I've seen a while ago seemed like a good choice: MAP and vit e plus something else, but the package is questionable; it comes in one of those bottle droppers). What have you been using, if you don't mind the inquery?

Also, about applying and reapplying in general. I have no problem with reapplying but for let's say a chemical sunscreen, how is it possible to apply and reapply when uv rays are constantly going through your windows without having to lock yourself in a closet. Maybe I've just let this go to my head lol

Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:35 pm

I know old school zinc oxide suncreens look terrible but if I could get my hands on some non-nano, non-micronized zinc I would actually feel safe lol

Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:04 pm

I have used the sunscreen from Obagi C-rx system and I swear by it. It has great ingredients and feel it has given me superior protection without harmful ingredients. Look into it!

free skin care · Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:46 pm

I totally understand! I feel like a vampire, but I'm able to lead a mostly normal life and not disrupt my husband's sun-loving ways by doing the following. I use an AOX under my sunscreen (Olay Regen serum fragrance-free right now, Topix Replenix Serum CF for summer), then sunscreen (Olay Complete Classic gentle formula SPF 15 with ZO and octioxate right now, wanting a better one for summer...), then powder sunscreen (like Clinique Almost Powder SPF 15, LRP Toleriane mineral powder SPF 25, or Colorescience Sunforgettable SPF 30), and then hats or parasols for direct sun.

Here's where I'll start to sound totally obsessive, but it's really working for me... I also take 1-3 Sunpills depending on how much sun exposure I predict (and I pack extra in my purse just in case, along with powder sunscreen for easy reapplication/touch-ups), make sure my diet is loaded with AOXs and anti-inflammatories, and keep tabs on the UV index... there are weather websites that have this like AOL and MSN, and I use a Speedo UVI watch and UV Sunsense wristbands to measure my actual UV exposure.

Some useful things I've learned from the Speedo watch: direct sun is a lot more intense than you expect, parasols make a HUGE difference, and you only need to be several feet away from a window and out of the sun to get a UVI reading of 0.0. This has really put my mind at ease, instead of just guessing and hiding in a coffin, lol. Seriously, a hat plus SPF 15 for three summers really faded my freckles, and it's since wanting to start tretinoin that got me more serious about sun protection.

Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:20 pm

@rockhugger: I've been lookong into buying a uv detecting device! Found beads, those disposable bracelets, but never did I see a watch~ That actually seems to be more up my alley (aside from price). This may sound dumb but it does detect both uva and uvb, right? I'm really conscientious about uva (hella superficial, but I'm indoors mostly anyway so a lot of uvb is blocked). You know, thinking about that question, it probably is dumb but I'm still not sure so lol...

I've been also meaning to boost my diet. Have any tips (more like, mind listing some staples in your diet lol)?

free skin care · Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:43 pm

I understand your plight over this issue. If safety is a problem than........use the titainium dioxide products. You can't get more safer than using that one. If you find these too white for the face, cosmetics will look after that. Whatever you all do, think about the consequences by NOT wearing it at all.

free skin care · Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:12 am

Yes, the Speedo watch measures both UVA and UVB. In fact the UVI itself is a weighted combination of UVA and UVB intensity, and although I don't know the exact combination, I understand that it measures the total sun damage potential. The Speedo watch agrees with the predictions from http://www-med-physik.vu-wien.ac.at/uv/uv-index/uvi_eue.txt -- at least in overcast conditions, and the watch registers higher than the website in direct sun (but facing away from the sun is closer). Yep, clear blue sky reflects UV rays...

Diet-wise, here are the highlights:
-lots of olive oil, not to cook with but to drizzle on warm food and mix into my greek yogurt
-dark chocolate, the darker the better
-blueberries, codliver oil, mineral water, eggs, a bit of meat, and preference for salmon
-colorful veggies (beets, carrots, tomatoes, brussels sprouts, etc.) or colorful veggie juices when they're out of season or I'm lazy
-turmeric to cook with or curcuma supplements
-lots of nuts, especially pistachios, walnuts and almonds

And just as important, I think, is what I avoid: sugar, which causes both acne and wrinkles and tooth decay... Instead, I try to get 6-10 grams of xylitol per day, which is good for teeth and collagen too.

free skin care · Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:40 am

I don't think it would be necessary to reapply when you're in doors, because even though UVA behaves like xrays, they are still blocked to some extent before reaching when you're inside.

I'm currently on the hunt for some antioxidants myself so I can't help you there :P But I am looking at Kiehl's acai line right now

free skin care · Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:03 am

I'm here to help!

Let me put your mind at rest: zin oxide is the safest thing ever. Micro sized zinc oxide is as safe as it gets. No, titanium dioxide is not safer than zinc oxide, it's the other way around (although titanium dioxide is also safe).

Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:34 pm

@rockhugger: thanks for the dietary advice. It will definitely be hard trying to incorporate veggies and non-fruit items but I can suck it up for the sake of my skin :P

@oasisjc: I just can't help but think that the uva rays that aren't blocked and that come into the room will have an effect on the sunscreen's ability to do whatever it needs to do before you set foot outside. I mean, I only think this because they stress not to go outside for 20-30 minutes after applying. So, ok, staying inside is not a problem, but when it comes down to it, they want you to apply before heading out into the sun and being exposed to uv rays but the thing is, you're constantly being exposed to uv rays indoors, too, just to a very lesser extent (since most uvb and some uva are blocked). I guess the difference in intensity makes a difference? Haha, sorry, after really delving into the sunscreen controvery, I haven't been able to anaylyze this from a logical point of view. It has totally fried my brain.

On a seperate note: the only reason why zinc sunscreens are making me apprehensive now is because, while most studies show that it does not penetrate the statum corneum in healthy skin, there was a study (yep, just one study is making me go cuckoo) that showed that micronized zinc CAN penetrated compromised skin (such as skin with acne, rosacea, etc). My acne isn't too bad, but I have little bumps in random areas (which I'm assuming is acne) so it freaks me out. Not to meantion the whole uncoated and coated controversy. I'm currently wearing one that is coated with triethoxycaprylysaline (sp?) and while there has been a lot of studies showing that coated zinc helps prevent penetration, I also read, on here, that the silicon coating could actually make it more easier to penetrate. So if that is the case, apparently triethoxycaprylysaline will convert to silica and destroy cells (just going off memory; may be slightly inaccruate) That's why, for now, I just want to get a non-micronized zinc oxide sunscreen lol.

free skin care · Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:33 am

ilovefkmtnoses wrote:

@rockhugger: thanks for the dietary advice. It will definitely be hard trying to incorporate veggies and non-fruit items but I can suck it up for the sake of my skin :P

@oasisjc: I just can't help but think that the uva rays that aren't blocked and that come into the room will have an effect on the sunscreen's ability to do whatever it needs to do before you set foot outside. I mean, I only think this because they stress not to go outside for 20-30 minutes after applying. So, ok, staying inside is not a problem, but when it comes down to it, they want you to apply before heading out into the sun and being exposed to uv rays but the thing is, you're constantly being exposed to uv rays indoors, too, just to a very lesser extent (since most uvb and some uva are blocked). I guess the difference in intensity makes a difference? Haha, sorry, after really delving into the sunscreen controvery, I haven't been able to anaylyze this from a logical point of view. It has totally fried my brain.

On a seperate note: the only reason why zinc sunscreens are making me apprehensive now is because, while most studies show that it does not penetrate the statum corneum in healthy skin, there was a study (yep, just one study is making me go cuckoo) that showed that micronized zinc CAN penetrated compromised skin (such as skin with acne, rosacea, etc). My acne isn't too bad, but I have little bumps in random areas (which I'm assuming is acne) so it freaks me out. Not to meantion the whole uncoated and coated controversy. I'm currently wearing one that is coated with triethoxycaprylysaline (sp?) and while there has been a lot of studies showing that coated zinc helps prevent penetration, I also read, on here, that the silicon coating could actually make it more easier to penetrate. So if that is the case, apparently triethoxycaprylysaline will convert to silica and destroy cells (just going off memory; may be slightly inaccruate) That's why, for now, I just want to get a non-micronized zinc oxide sunscreen lol.

lol I think you're going a bit too far with this. As I mentioned before, UVA rays WILL make it into your house unless it's lined with 10 inches of lead. But that doesn't mean you need to have sunscreen and reapply it every couple hours. Chances are, the amount of UVA that makes it to you while you're indoors (unless you're beside a window) will be minimal. And even if it is enough to damage you, there really isn't anything you can do unless you get up 30 minutes before the sun rises to put on sunscreen. And even then, your sunscreen will rub off throughout the day or just become oxidized, so there is always that opportunity for exposure (not to mention your scalp is always a target). It's best to do things in moderation. Don't obsess over this one fact that if you're exposed to sunlight for more than 1 minute without sunscreen that your chances of getting cancer will increase dramatically - it won't.

Also, where are you reading this study from? Sometimes, articles are taken out of context (like the ones about parabens being harmful) by other authors/reviewers, so don't believe everything you read, especially when there's just one paper to back it up

free skin care · Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:34 am

ilovefkmtnoses wrote:

@rockhugger: thanks for the dietary advice. It will definitely be hard trying to incorporate veggies and non-fruit items but I can suck it up for the sake of my skin :P

@oasisjc: I just can't help but think that the uva rays that aren't blocked and that come into the room will have an effect on the sunscreen's ability to do whatever it needs to do before you set foot outside. I mean, I only think this because they stress not to go outside for 20-30 minutes after applying. So, ok, staying inside is not a problem, but when it comes down to it, they want you to apply before heading out into the sun and being exposed to uv rays but the thing is, you're constantly being exposed to uv rays indoors, too, just to a very lesser extent (since most uvb and some uva are blocked). I guess the difference in intensity makes a difference? Haha, sorry, after really delving into the sunscreen controvery, I haven't been able to anaylyze this from a logical point of view. It has totally fried my brain.

On a seperate note: the only reason why zinc sunscreens are making me apprehensive now is because, while most studies show that it does not penetrate the statum corneum in healthy skin, there was a study (yep, just one study is making me go cuckoo) that showed that micronized zinc CAN penetrated compromised skin (such as skin with acne, rosacea, etc). My acne isn't too bad, but I have little bumps in random areas (which I'm assuming is acne) so it freaks me out. Not to meantion the whole uncoated and coated controversy. I'm currently wearing one that is coated with triethoxycaprylysaline (sp?) and while there has been a lot of studies showing that coated zinc helps prevent penetration, I also read, on here, that the silicon coating could actually make it more easier to penetrate. So if that is the case, apparently triethoxycaprylysaline will convert to silica and destroy cells (just going off memory; may be slightly inaccruate) That's why, for now, I just want to get a non-micronized zinc oxide sunscreen lol.

lol I think you're going a bit too far with this. As I mentioned before, UVA rays WILL make it into your house unless it's lined with 10 inches of lead. But that doesn't mean you need to have sunscreen and reapply it every couple hours. Chances are, the amount of UVA that makes it to you while you're indoors (unless you're beside a window) will be minimal. And even if it is enough to damage you, there really isn't anything you can do unless you get up 30 minutes before the sun rises to put on sunscreen. And even then, your sunscreen will rub off throughout the day or just become oxidized, so there is always that opportunity for exposure (not to mention your scalp is always a target). It's best to do things in moderation. Don't obsess over this one fact that if you're exposed to sunlight for more than 1 minute without sunscreen that your chances of getting cancer will increase dramatically - it won't.

Also, where are you reading this study from? Sometimes, articles are taken out of context (like the ones about parabens being harmful) by other authors/reviewers, so don't believe everything you read, especially when there's just one paper to back it up

free skin care · Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:20 am

i have been obsessing about sunscreens as well, I buy only `natural` sunscreens so I trust that the ingredients are safe, but I feel that all my hard work with retin a, c serum and AHA, are being ruined by the thick cloggy sunscreens, before I started using sunscreens last week (because I was never outside and it was aleays raiing) my skin was looking really good, but now I find that my skin is pumpier and where the screen leaves a sheen on it accentuates all the little pumps and imperfections.
I was using jasons 20 but bought a new one 2 days ago and its exactly the same. Sad

My origins makeup has 35 factor in it, would this be enough?
Whats the nicest skin liking sunscreen you are all using? Very Happy

free skin care · Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:03 am

Wow a 'natural' sunscreen? Which brand are you using if you don't mind me asking :P I'm not sure if I would trust natural sunscreens though.. it would seem like they don't provide adequate protection

free skin care · Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:51 am

Hi
Well it says it's natural? To be honest I'm not as knowledgable as alot of people on eds, so as long as it hasn't got parabens or sls
Then I'm happy, I wouldn't know what else to avoid, and if it's a reputable company and says it's natural I will buy.
The product I'm using is Jason

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