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Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:35 am  |
I would be interested to know of any studies/knowledge people may have regarding the action of retinoids on telomere length.
The quicker telomeres shorten, the nearer we get to hayflicks limit, which seems to mean that our skin wont regenerate any more?
I have read opinions by some posters that retin a extends the hayflicks limit, presumably by lengthening telomeres?
However, this study seems to say that retinoids shorten telomeres.... meaning we reach the hayflicks limit faster
http://www.pnas.org/content/98/12/6662.short
Any thoughts? |
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Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:58 pm |
I've always wondered that too..but not enough to stop using retin A. I read about it on smart skincare.
You'd think an older person who has used Retin A since it came out would be able to tell us if their skin all of a sudden stopped responding or got real thin...
I find it more of a theory than truth...I really don't believe it. I have nothing at all to base that on..but that's what I think. |
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Shizoku Skin
New Member
 
Joined: 21 Mar 2010
Posts: 3
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Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:50 pm |
to be honest, I don't know what hayflicks or telomere's are. But I do know that excessive exfoliation does cause pre-mature aging of the skin. If your skin is constantly trying to keep up with repairing your "damaged" barrier ie: constantly regenerating cells to replace the ones un-naturaly lost during retin-a, peels, resurfacing...than it isn't focused on maintaining healthy tissue functions. I guess that's just what I have noticed in my own skin. I am 35 and I have just recently stopped most/all aggressive prods and treatments (I worked in plastics and derms offices for 10 years) and I have noticed my skin getting better!  |
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Anne |
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Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:23 am |
Its hard to know what to believe!
You would have thought that the retin a veterans (over 25 year users) would have encountered problems by now.......instead you seem to read how wonderful their skin is!......thats assuming various online testomonials are true?!
Maybe some long term users could put their views across..
Its interesting to think that we are all trying to regenerate our skin by using various acids etc, which in theory should push us closer to the hayflicks limit faster. However, many men shave daily from their teens until they die.....so are regenerating their skin constantly, and seem to age very well in the areas they shave. |
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Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:34 am |
From what little I remember at the moment, I thought that when it comes to telemere length, shorter is associated with anti-aging.
If you are referring t inflammation caused by retinoids, you can find a thread I started and wrote about the issue of inflammation in general.
BF |
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Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:47 am |
| jedder wrote: |
Its hard to know what to believe!
You would have thought that the retin a veterans (over 25 year users) would have encountered problems by now.......instead you seem to read how wonderful their skin is!......thats assuming various online testomonials are true?!
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Unfortunately, I don't think there are truly many people who have used Retin A consistently for that long of a time. Also, I am sure they don't just use Retin A, so any good and/or bad testimonials need to be taken with a grain of salt. |
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Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:34 am |
| You are absolutely right rileygirl. I have been using retin a pretty consistently for close to 20 years...started in my 20s and am now 43. I only use my 1% retin a 2 to 3 nights a week now, but have done so many procedures and used so many products along with the retin a....who knows what has really helped the most?? |
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LB |
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Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:11 am |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
From what little I remember at the moment, I thought that when it comes to telemere length, shorter is associated with anti-aging.
If you are referring t inflammation caused by retinoids, you can find a thread I started and wrote about the issue of inflammation in general.
BF |
In theory, the shorter a telomere goes, the closer you get to hayflicks limit. However, i have also read that retinoic acid increased hayflicks limit by 50 % when tested on fibroblasts in a lab (i have still to find the scientific paper on this though)..... so who knows?? |
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Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:21 am |
| Hayflick limit though I thought was only a theory and isn't by any means a scientific fact. Its often promoted as such, but when I asked my friend whose a biology tutor about it, she kind of laughed and said its one of many theories people use to promote products. |
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Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:28 am |
| The hayflicks limit is a scientific fact to some degree....it was done on human cells in a lab, so in theory the human body should mimick this. |
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Thu Oct 14, 2010 8:47 am |
The skin is the body's largest organ - I don't believe that it can suddenly "wear out". If you do happen to over exfoliate your skin, it becomes irritated and sore - so the obvious thing to do is to stop and let the skin heal. I couldn't imagine using a product for such an extended length of time that you literally wore your skin away - it would be agony and doesn't make sense.
Just think of the skin on the soles of your feet. Natives who walk barefoot all the time develop thick skin on their soles - the skin on the bottom of their feet doesn't get worn away. Similarly, the hands of people who do manual labour develop calluses. So, in other words, the skin reacts to all the abrasion by becoming thicker, not thinner. Therefore, I pay no attention to the supposed Hayflick effect. However, that's my own totally unscientific and uninformed opinion!
In addition, any peeling of the skin caused by the initial use of Retin-A will stop after a period of time as the skin gradually adjusts to the drug. Peeling should not be an ongoing thing. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:09 am |
| Its not that your skin will wear away, once the hayflicks limit is reached, your skin isnt able to be manipulated to act young again.......basically your skin cells become very sluggish, causing age spots, droopy, slack, wrinkled and easily damaged skin. Thats the theory anyway. |
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Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:56 am |
But our new skin cells are formed way down in the dermis and gradually work up to the surface and then die off I don't see any topical including Retin A reaching such depths to cause the skin to stop producing new cells?
The life span of a single epidermal cell that you feel when you touch the skin is approximately ten days. During this time it is exposed to environmental trauma that damages the outside of the cell. By the end of the tenth day, the cell has enough surface damage that together with similar effects on millions of surrounding skin cells, the skin has a very rough feel. If medicine like Retin-A or glycolic acid can produce a more rapid turnover rate so that the cells are pushed off the body in five days, rather than ten days, then the cells will not be exposed to as much trauma. These cells will then feel softer when they are replaced by new, undamaged cells. it's that simple.
Another way Retin-A and glycolic acid work is that by stimulating the dermis to make more epidermis, the dermis becomes thicker itself. And a
thicker dermis has more blood vessels for a pink glow, more elastic fibers
for more recoil, more new collagen for volume to remove wrinkles and ore
water content to plump up the skin. These are all qualities for youthful
skin that we lose as we age.
Procedure Differences
The difference between Retin-A and glycolic acid and the stronger trichloroacetic acid (TCA) chemical peels, croton oil peels, or CO2 laser, is one of depth of penetration. The deeper the treatment into the dermis, the greater improvement of the skin. The downside of a deeper treatment is, of course, greater risk of scarring and much greater healing time. Retin-A and glycolic acid barely penetrate the dermis; therefore, do little to thicken the dermis. The effects are to remove fine lines, improve superficial color irregularities and make softer skin. Medium to deep wrinkles and deep color irregularities will not be improved, but the recovery time is zero and there is essentially no risk. |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:28 am |
Darkmoon, retinoids do indeed reach such depths. They are cell communicating ingredients who communicate with retinoid receptors, which are responsible for many functions, one of which is triggering the growth of new cells.
See this for a good explanation: http://www.smartskincare.com/treatments/topical/retinoids.html |
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Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:50 am |
| Josh wrote: |
Darkmoon, retinoids do indeed reach such depths. They are cell communicating ingredients who communicate with retinoid receptors, which are responsible for many functions, one of which is triggering the growth of new cells.
See this for a good explanation: http://www.smartskincare.com/treatments/topical/retinoids.html |
Josh,
I am a member of smartskincare and I realize Retin A reaches deeper than most any other tropicals and it triggers cell turnover, however I am thinking of the lowest layer of the dermis where new cells are being formed, if I am incorrect there then please feel free to correct the information? |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:55 am |
| Just for information's sake, at 56 I have yet to use Retin A, so I have no dog in this fight so to speak, just after the facts! |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:19 pm |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
But our new skin cells are formed way down in the dermis and gradually work up to the surface and then die off ....
Another way Retin-A and glycolic acid work is that by stimulating the dermis to make more epidermis ...
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Wrong.
If you read this article, you will see that the whole issue of Hayflick limit and telomere shortening is irrelevant when talking about the epidermis/skin, at least according to my understanding of the article:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/bookshelf/br.fcgi?book=mboc4&part=A4080 |
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Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:22 pm |
| jedder wrote: |
| Its not that your skin will wear away, once the hayflicks limit is reached, your skin isnt able to be manipulated to act young again.......basically your skin cells become very sluggish, causing age spots, droopy, slack, wrinkled and easily damaged skin. Thats the theory anyway. |
Ok, I thought the Hayflick Limit was concerned with too much exfoliation (told you I was uninformed!)
However, I thought that Retin-A thickened the skin from the dermis up. I've been using it for over four years and it's done allot for my skin - definitely no age spots or increased wrinkling. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:31 pm |
About all of this that makes 2 of us that are uninformed Keliu!
Ok from reading the link you posted Lacy I get that it's the Basal Layer of the Dermis that produces our new skin cells. Now does Retin A reach that layer? |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:37 pm |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
Ok from reading the link you posted Lacy I get that it's the Basal Layer of the Dermis that produces our new skin cells. Now does Retin A reach that layer? |
You mean the basal layer of the epidermis (not dermis). Yes, Retin-A will definitely reach that layer of the epidermis. |
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Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:45 pm |
| Lacy53 wrote: |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
Ok from reading the link you posted Lacy I get that it's the Basal Layer of the Dermis that produces our new skin cells. Now does Retin A reach that layer? |
You mean the basal layer of the epidermis (not dermis). Yes, Retin-A will definitely reach that layer of the epidermis. |
Yes that's what I meant, sorry too much reading legalese lately and my mind is not absorbing properly. |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:53 pm |
Now I suppose I may be thinking along the lines of the earliest beginning of what will become (if unaltered) an adult skin cell. So in essence I am thinking in terms of the infant or earlier stage of skin cell development.
http://www.hhmi.org/news/miller20091208.html
DECEMBER 08, 2009
New Skin Stem Cells Surprisingly Similar to Those Found in Embryos
Scientists have discovered a new type of stem cell in the skin that acts surprisingly like certain stem cells found in embryos: both can generate fat, bone, cartilage, and even nerve cells. These newly-described dermal stem cells may one day prove useful for treating neurological disorders and persistent wounds, such as diabetic ulcers, says Freda Miller, an HHMI international research scholar.
Miller and her colleagues first saw the cells several years ago in both rodents and people, but only now confirmed that the cells are stem cells. Like other stem cells, these cell scan self-renew and, under the right conditions, they can grow into the cell types that constitute the skin’s dermal layer, which lies under the surface epidermal layer. “We showed that these cells are, in fact, the real thing,” says Miller, a professor at the University of Toronto and a senior scientist in the department of developmental biology at the Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto. The dermal stem cells also appear tohelp form the basis for hair growth.The new work was published December 4, 2009, in the journal Cell Stem Cells. |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:07 am |
Hi. New today. Biophysicals does telomere testing. I saw a show recently where Dr. Oz (not daytime show - night show on Discovery channel?) took 4 patients and changed their lives based on the testing results. The youngest (who exercised 5 times per week) had the most frayed telomers because she was always stressed. He introduced yoga. He helped another with rosacea through diet/supplements. Another through diet, she was at risk for heart disease.
Of course, this would not give any indication as to your current Hayflicks limit. |
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Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:58 pm |
I have been trying to slow down shortening of my telomeres within the means available. There are not that many products on the market to maintain or slow down telomere shortening and even those are in evaluation studies. Nevertheless slowing down telomere shortening is one of the best ways in anti aging to maintain health and beauty.
Posting links to several youtube videos on telomere shortening that explain in plain language how telomere shortening impacts aging & lifespan, and what is being done about it.
Sierra Sciences CEO Bill Andrews, Ph.D on Telomere Shortening
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQvPuzCJPJE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBy0EuiUalc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmo2RxQNl_w |
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Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:47 pm |
| WOW mpstat!! That is some great information!! Did you have the testing? |
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