Formulating with bee products.
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Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:18 pm

Specifically honey and propolis. Hello former lurker new member here Smile

. Appologies if this is considered a duplicate a half hour tango with with search function wasnt as helpful as id hoped.

Im a decent formulator of basic oil and wax kind of products (lotion bars, lip balm, salve, ect...)but im looking to expand my functional knowledge.

I have severe eczema and recently have had alot of luck with a store bought honey/propolis cream. Problem is its rather expensive, solution is to learm more since it is a very simplistic product with all of about 6 ingredients.

I havent had good results with using honey before but i dont think i used it in the proper context (lotion bar) and it separated leaving the bar a gooey block of swiss cheese. havent attempted propolis since ive heard its solubility can be an issue.

So back to the point, can anyone give me a basic run down of how to formulate successful no water products with these items? Any input on pollen is welcome as well.

Thank you Smile

free skin care · Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:38 am

Welcome!

What are the ingredients of the product you want to emulate, please? What did you make last time that didn't emulsify properly?

Sugar/ honey is a simple humectant (water attracting molecule) so tends to be sticky, you will need to use water or the end result will be either very sticky or very greasy and may well not emulsify (a basic emulsion or cream is oil in water or water in oil). Furthermore if you use too much of a humectant it can draw water out of the skin instead of attracting it in.

AFAIK propolis main action is as an antimicrobial, is it possible you don't have simple atopic eczema but also have a mild concurrent infection, be that bacterial or fungal? As well as considering the solubility you would also want to consider how to best make the formula such that the anti-oxidant/ anti-inflammatory compounds actually cross the skin barrier. Choice of lipids and emulsifiers is relevant. Is it possible to purchase a non-waxy extract of propolis for skincare formulators? This would be easier to formulate with, you would be able to use this in the water/ alcohol phase, and add waxes to the oil phase.

free skin care · Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:05 am

http://www.apitherapie.ch/files/files/Propolis/PropolisBookReview.pdf

free skin care · Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:22 am

Hi Long Haired Hippie, maybe the propolis and honey cream you bought was Egyptian Magic?

What are the 6 ingredients of the cream you bought? Maybe we can work out a recipe for something similar here.
Propolis can be worked with once you have it dissolved in oil (double boiler, gently heat, keep stirring until dissolved). Or you can simply use propolis extract or propolis tincture.
In a balm honey works OK, but if you use it in a cream I would seriously consider a preservative of some kind and/or keep the cream refrigerated to prevent trouble.

Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:46 pm

ok forgive me i dont know how to multi quote on here yet.

Firefox7275 - thank you for the welcome Smile

! im not with the product right no but its a honey girl product. i dont use water since my eczema reacts to most preservatives so i have to be careful of what i use and i dont want to refrigrate or mess around. plus im about to move to a very ill equipt appartment so sanitizing will be very hard. greasy doesnt bother me so i stick to water free formulas so maybe i will have to take honey off my radar.

as to my skin i have been on a few oral antibotics and one topical plus 3 anti fungals with no positive responce. certain steroids have had a minimal inpact. i have other auto immune issues so the final dx ended up being eczema. thank you for the info on propolis sounds like i have some shopping around to do.

Lotusesther - I have looked into that one but didnt get it locally it costs over $35 a jar eeek! what i have i made by honey girl but i dont have the tub with me at the moment. thank you for the information. i will have to post back when i have the tub with me.

free skin care · Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:02 pm

Sorry to hear you have other immune issues. Sad

Humectants are a mainstay of effective eczema treatment, because the balance of the skin's natural moisturising factors is often disturbed. But humectants mean using products with water in - they also help with absorption of fatty acids from your oils and butters. You may find the humectant was the key ingredient if you have previously been using anhydrous (waterless) topicals. How are you managing to cleanse your skin if preservatives are an issue?

Will send you a PM.

Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:18 pm

one of these days i will have to type up my whole routine. i do use some water formulated products but i dont make them myself. i dont know exactly what it is called but i stick to products preserved by an enthanol type preservative not a great shelf life but i try to only buy what i need even if its inconveinient to get ahold of.

oil and wax are my mainstays i use the others as part of a layering process since it doesnt help much to apply the former to dry skin. at least for me anyway.

for cleansing i use cold process soap or liquid castile.

free skin care · Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:43 am

Traditional soaps are highly alkaline and strip the lipids from the skin barrier so this could be a major part of the problem. Confused

Healthy skin is acidic at pH ~5.5 and this is important for healthy skin flora, keeping populations of 'bad' microorganisms under control. Stripping the lipids will increase transepidermal water loss and leave you more vulnerable to irritation from other products. Traditional soaps also leave a residue of their own.

Part of the reason your heavy wax or oil based products are working may be simply that they are providing protection against your cleansing products. I am not being facetious: slathering my elbow patch of eczema in unrefined shea butter made more of an improvement that my prescription corticosteroid. Then I realised the trigger was shampoo bubbles running down my arm! Shock

Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:18 am

I started using traditional soap after realizing i am highly reactive sulfates and most sulfate alternatives. I can use glycosides (SP?)but they are insanely expensive and dont seem any more calming to my skin than the soap. Right now i have soft water which helps and is imperitive to controling the eczema, trying to figure out how im going to do that in the appt since i know i cant go without.

When im having a bad flare or the softener is lo on salt i do a whole body diluted vinegar rinse to help readjust the ph. its not perfect but its the least irritating thing ive found. sometimes my body just baffels me and goes against all tradional reasoning.

i think one of the perks if at a cost of the ph is that it kills microbes well. my skin infections have reduced since switching and im more comfortable with that than the antibiotic cream i was on. if i dont shower everyday and make sure to throughly wash my hands a few times a day im asking for puss filled cracks on my hands/feet/knees.

If you are aware of any other cleansers im open to checking them out. thank you so much for all your help on this Smile

free skin care · Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:16 am

Long_Haired_Hippie wrote:

I started using traditional soap after realizing i am highly reactive sulfates and most sulfate alternatives. I can use glycosides (SP?)but they are insanely expensive and dont seem any more calming to my skin than the soap. Right now i have soft water which helps and is imperitive to controling the eczema, trying to figure out how im going to do that in the appt since i know i cant go without.

When im having a bad flare or the softener is lo on salt i do a whole body diluted vinegar rinse to help readjust the ph. its not perfect but its the least irritating thing ive found. sometimes my body just baffels me and goes against all tradional reasoning.

i think one of the perks if at a cost of the ph is that it kills microbes well. my skin infections have reduced since switching and im more comfortable with that than the antibiotic cream i was on. if i dont shower everyday and make sure to throughly wash my hands a few times a day im asking for puss filled cracks on my hands/feet/knees.

If you are aware of any other cleansers im open to checking them out. thank you so much for all your help on this Smile

(((hugs))) Must be so frustrating for you, and a worry moving to a new place. What you are describing is absolutely 'normal' in eczematous skin. Chemistry is a funny thing, for example the amphoteric surfactant (AKA zwitterionic) category behave completely differently in an acidic compared to an alkaline formulation.

Sulphates are indeed evil IMO, as are many anionic surfactants. How are you with cocamidopropyl betaine in an acidic formula? This is the gentlest surfactant I know of, but with any cleansing product the finished pH is key. I'm in the UK unfortunately, but you might find something with that surfactant by Googling "sulphate-free shower gel base" - base meaning it is a plain formula designed to have fragrance, colour or oils added but can be used as is. An alternative is to purchase cocoamidopropyl betaine, some acid (lactic acid is hydrating and naturally found in healthy skin) and pH test papers to make up a little batch of your own.

Too many products are pH neutral (labelled 'pH 'balanced'), a healthy skin is able to 'buffer' against that but eczematous or ageing skin can really struggle. Another option is cleansing your body with a super plain pharmacy cream, the most common recommended method in dermatitis. Another caveat: NOT aqueous cream which was recommended for many years but contains 1% sulphate surfactants. Research shows it can take many, many weeks for the skin barrier to recover from surfactant damage. In the mean time micro-organism levels can go haywire. Sad

It is so easy to get stuck in a cycle where you rely on surfactants or soaps to control bacteria levels. Once the pH is wrong and the 'good guys' on the surface have been wiped out there is little to control the bad guys. One natural option is using a zinc oxide moisturiser - if you can find one a traditional zinc and castor oil diaper cream might be an option? I have a cheap one with only five ingredients, the zinc naturally preserving the product. You could otherwise make your own, zinc oxide is available as an ingredient. You should be able to combine this with your propolis/ honey idea, hopefully ending up with a really powerful yet gentle product.

Don't be too disheartened if I am suggesting stuff you have already tried, sometimes it is the combination that is the key - for example a particular surfactant PLUS a particular anti-microbial (zinc or propolis or both) PLUS a particular oil or butter PLUS more fish oils in the diet. This is because many skin conditions, particularly severe ones, are caused by a series of 'failures' in the processes that lead to healthy skin. I believe the key is understanding the underlying physiology (science) then manipulating that with the power of nature. Cool

free skin care · Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:02 am

If your skin handles oils well, I would try the Oil Cleansing Method because it doesn't strip the skin. You have to wash it off with water so whether this would be a problem for you, I don't know. But I do know that the OCM is a great method of cleansing for troubled skin.

I also use Egyptian Magic, it contains Bees Wax and Olive Oil. I find it very soothing on rashes too. You can buy it for around $35.00 on Ebay but a jar lasts me about a year.

Also, have you tried using the honey as a mask. You'll find allot of recipes on the net so do a search. I recently came across one in which you mix equal amounts of honey and instant coffee to make a paste - it's supposed to be good for skin tightening.

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