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Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:14 pm  |
How many of you guys have attempted this type of massage? It is when you tighten your face as much as you can and then rub your skin as much as it allows. It was recommended by Sanford Bennett, "the man who never ages".
Do you think this will do damage to the skin in the long run? |
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Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:14 pm |
Hi, as long as you don't do the massage/rubbing straight on "dry" skin, but using some cream/oil/water for the fingers/palm of hands to slide/glide,... no, there should be no harm to the skin.
A link related to this kind of massage, similar in the positioning of the face muscles that Stanford Bennet recommended (though he recommended moving the jaw up and down while keeping the muscles tight during the massage/friction):
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081221130125AAiuKnU
Carolyn Cleaves (Carolyn's Fitness) has a similar ex. which she recommends:
http://www.carolynsfacialfitness.com/the-face-firmer-massage-technique-blog
I adapted the first post of yahoo to my everyday massage before knowing about Carolyn's version, and I love the results, and no, my skin has not been harmed at all, in any case it is stronger and more elastic, but then again never do the massage on bare skin!!
HIH, A. |
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Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:18 pm |
Hi Atester,
Thanks for the wonderful info! I noticed you said not to do it on dry skin, but that is the way Sanford Benett recommended it. I feel I break out if I use olive oil. You dont have this problem? |
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Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:22 am |
| Ha if it did I would be in serious trouble. I've done Stamford Bennett, and if you read that book there are photos of women who did it too and had great results. I don't remember him saying do it dry - because he spoke about skin foods when doing it from memory. |
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Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:30 pm |
Hi Bob, I agree with TheresaMary, I actually tried out a massage rubbing the skin on my forehead with nothing on it and I tore a tiny bit of skin... so I learnt the hard way!!
Can't remember about Stanford Bennet doing on dry or not, in any case, about olive oil... I don't use it for the massage, find it too heavy, I prefer jojoba, or almond oil -go changing around- but of course really rinse well afterwards if you think the oils whichever ones don't suit you, like when doing the OCM (I do use olive oil here, but always make sure to really rinse it out well with a microfiber cloth, if not I guess I could break out too!!)
The point is that I think vigorous massage, one type or another, is a great tool for keeping skin in a good condition.  |
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Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:37 am |
Thanks for posting this ATester.
I always massage with bare skin and never have a problem. I like being able to get a good grip. |
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Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:28 am |
I’ve heard this said by many people, and even when I was learning massage I had some teachers who advised us to never massage on dry skin in the very early days, but having worked as a masseur (and trained specifically not just body massage but also facial massage) there has been a lot of debunking of these kind of myths and still even to this day in order to keep my licence I regularly have to do refresher courses etc.
In facial massage, the only time you really need to apply an oil is if there is no movement or a lot of tension in a region on the face, and then the oil is simply used to encourage movement and circulation into an area and to remove tension. So where I would use oil in my massage practice was only where I had someone with incredibly dry skin with no movement, but for the majority of my clients I wouldn’t use an oil – as I found this interfered with the techniques being used.
Likewise today I do sometimes use oil and sometimes I don’t depending on the state of my skin. I realise this is not the normal knowledge but figured it is worthwhile sharing as it may help others choose whether its appropriate to use an oil or isn’t. The truth is that one massage with or without an oil isn’t better than the other, but have valuable points. For example if I was doing a facelift type massage, then oil would be a nightmare for me to use as it wouldn’t encourage lifting but would usually (depending on the oil being used) weigh down the tissue. Why would you do that, well if the skin was very dry or severely dehydrated then it would be more important to increase the moisture than lifting the tissues. Sometimes there are benefits to gliding/sliding, but sometimes there are reasons why it is better not to use those techniques and instead use a pummelling type action or even (dare I say it) s-t-r-e-t-c-h-ing type movement on the skin to allow it to distress and reset.
Of course ATester was unlucky when they tried it dry skinned, but I would always advise anyone starting out not to go gungho, start out slowly and gently and build up. If you’re face has never been touched before and you go heavy handed of course it is going to show signs of stress, however if you gradually build up to it, you’ll have very different results!
In fact there are some people out there who (shock of horrors) don't advise any type of massage or oils on the skin because they believe it interferes with the tissue there. Just from when I was undergoing massage treatments I saw (and more importantly to me I felt) a difference. |
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FlexEffect Trainer |
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Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:43 am |
Thanks guys for the excellent replies! Sanford Bennett actually did mention in his book that it is the friction action that gets results. So he did say to not apply any type of moisturizer if I recollect correctly. I will check when I get home.
Sean, those are great points you made. I think that is where I stood before making this topic, you have reaffirmed by beliefs. Thanks! |
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Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:25 pm |
| So ive continued to do this and have seen excellent results. I have faced one problem though, I am getting crows feet! I think its from holding my face in the position of a smile. Do you guys advocate massaging around the eye area? The reason I ask is because when I do that, the think skin around my eyes gets pulled a bit. |
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Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:02 am |
Bob do it. Try it out for a while and it will change your skin for the better. I was nervous about massaging my eyes at first, as it goes against what we’re taught about the eye skin, but the truth is that if you don’t do things to the skin it will waste away and just grow thinner. Its not excessive pulling of the tissue, but just enough to get a reaction from the skin and stuff underneath it.
| bob44 wrote: |
| So ive continued to do this and have seen excellent results. I have faced one problem though, I am getting crows feet! I think its from holding my face in the position of a smile. Do you guys advocate massaging around the eye area? The reason I ask is because when I do that, the think skin around my eyes gets pulled a bit. |
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zwayny11
New Member
 
Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Posts: 4
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Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:11 am |
| I think Carolyn Cleaves looks exactly her age 65! There are other people who had better results. |
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Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:14 am |
| bob44 wrote: |
How many of you guys have attempted this type of massage? It is when you tighten your face as much as you can and then rub your skin as much as it allows. It was recommended by Sanford Bennett, "the man who never ages".
Do you think this will do damage to the skin in the long run? |
I actually just wrote a post on another thread that I think is a perfect answer to your post:
| Quote: |
| zwayny11 wrote: |
| I was reading through Sanford Bennett online book and was amazed at what this man achieved. I am surprised that no one is really managed to achieve his results. I know that there was no photoshop manipulation at that time. I would be interested to hear about others experience, feedback or input about his methods. Does it really work for everyone, or was he a special super non aging guy? |
I actually think that the Sanford Bennett massage method is a lot more closely related to the "Facial Detox" method shown here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5p9AzC9LE8&list=UU_8tJbL_Srt4xbQkcPNaTXA
Here is a wonderful "before and after" from the Facial Detox method:
You can see Sanford doing his techniques here. I know he mentions "contracting" his cheek muscles while doing deep tissue cheek massage, but I think that's different from the "friction" he speaks about. He doesn't appear to be contracting much in these photos and he does NOT say that Ninon de L'Enclos contracted her muscles while using the "friction" he spoke about.
Here is what he says in his book:
| Quote: |
For the face and neck, friction with the palms of the hands is an effective method of removing wrinkles, as they can be rubbed out, and the skin can be polished, as elsewhere stated, just like any other piece of leather.
And what will prove of special interest to ladies is that the friction exercises for the face and neck will surely result in a marked improvement. I have demonstrated upon my own face and neck that by this method wrinkles can be removed even in advanced age, and I am positive that if this friction exercise is commenced when the lines first appear and is persistently practiced, they will be eradicated and will not again appear until extreme old age. This is the method that was practiced by Ninon de L'Enclos, the celebrated French beauty of the seventeenth century, and it is the only successful method for removing wrinkles and retaining the smooth skin characteristic of youth. |
Here is Ninon de L'Enclos at the age of 70:
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Photo taken Oct 28, 2013: http://bit.ly/17Umeou |
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AngelaE7777
New Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2012
Posts: 8
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Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:17 am |
| zwayny11 wrote: |
| I think Carolyn Cleaves looks exactly her age 65! There are other people who had better results. |
I have to agree. She looks okay, but I don't think she looks overly young for her age and when I asked my husband for his point of view he said (his words, not mine...I think she's pretty) "she looks hideous". I think that meant that he didn't think she looked overly young for her age. |
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Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:25 am |
| zwayny11 wrote: |
| I think Carolyn Cleaves looks exactly her age 65! There are other people who had better results. |
The aim of face exercises is to make one look the best they can look at their age, not to make them look like they are younger than they are if they aren't so inclined. Some people do naturally look younger than their ages so if they did face exercises, they may look younger, but most people simple get better tone and smoothing out on their faces so they look better not younger.
Indeed Carolyn Cleaves does look like she is in her 60's but she doesn't have the signs of aging you would expect to see in people her age who haven't had surgery. She has no jowls, no turkey neck, no bags, no wrinkles...even her neck doesn't have rings you see in people younger than her. Heck her neck looks better than mine and I'm more than 20 years her junior! |
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AngelaE7777
New Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2012
Posts: 8
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Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:47 am |
| Nonie aka AD wrote: |
| zwayny11 wrote: |
| I think Carolyn Cleaves looks exactly her age 65! There are other people who had better results. |
The aim of face exercises is to make one look the best they can look at their age, not to make them look like they are younger than they are if they aren't so inclined. Some people do naturally look younger than their ages so if they did face exercises, they may look younger, but most people simple get better tone and smoothing out on their faces so they look better not younger.
Indeed Carolyn Cleaves does look like she is in her 60's but she doesn't have the signs of aging you would expect to see in people her age who haven't had surgery. She has no jowls, no turkey neck, no bags, no wrinkles...even her neck doesn't have rings you see in people younger than her. Heck her neck looks better than mine and I'm more than 20 years her junior! |
I was reading through Sanford Bennett's book again and he talks about face and neck exercises, massage, and "friction". I think those are three separate and distinctive things; they are not one and the same. Most people around the time he wrote his book on old age thought he looked about half his 72 years. Except that his hair is either gray or white (can't tell; the photo is black and white), I would have to agree with them.
Shoot. Still can't post links with this ID. I'll do it like this:
leadice[dot]com/Sanford |
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Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:14 pm |
| AngelaE7777 wrote: |
| Nonie aka AD wrote: |
| zwayny11 wrote: |
| I think Carolyn Cleaves looks exactly her age 65! There are other people who had better results. |
The aim of face exercises is to make one look the best they can look at their age, not to make them look like they are younger than they are if they aren't so inclined. Some people do naturally look younger than their ages so if they did face exercises, they may look younger, but most people simple get better tone and smoothing out on their faces so they look better not younger.
Indeed Carolyn Cleaves does look like she is in her 60's but she doesn't have the signs of aging you would expect to see in people her age who haven't had surgery. She has no jowls, no turkey neck, no bags, no wrinkles...even her neck doesn't have rings you see in people younger than her. Heck her neck looks better than mine and I'm more than 20 years her junior! |
I was reading through Sanford Bennett's book again and he talks about face and neck exercises, massage, and "friction". I think those are three separate and distinctive things; they are not one and the same. Most people around the time he wrote his book on old age thought he looked about half his 72 years. Except that his hair is either gray or white (can't tell; the photo is black and white), I would have to agree with them.
Shoot. Still can't post links with this ID. I'll do it like this:
leadice[dot]com/Sanford
[fixed it for you  - Nonie]
|
I think the reason people keep bringing Carolyn up in the discussion is because she did use Bennett as one of her inspirations and incorporated some of his ideas in her program. Unlike Bennett though, Carolyn doesn't treat exercise, friction, and massage as separate and distinctive things but rather her exercises include massage and friction in their method of performance.
And yes, at 72 Sanford Bennett does look like he could be the son of himself at 50. I wonder if not having menopause sort of worked in his favor since it tends to rob women of their youth without mercy.
I have often said the same thing about Robert looking like a son to the former him. This was Robert before face exercises:
 
And this is he after just 2 years of face exercises:
 
I wonder what he'd look like if he kept it up for another 20 years. |
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AngelaE7777
New Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2012
Posts: 8
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Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:18 pm |
| Nonie aka AD wrote: |
And yes, at 72 Sanford Bennett does look like he could be the son of himself at 50. I wonder if not having menopause sort of worked in his favor since it tends to rob women of their youth without mercy. |
I wondered about this very thing, myself. Except for the fact that Sanford Bennett mentions and shows a picture of Ninon de L'Enclos, who is in her 70s, I suspect that women have more "going against them" in that they must deal with menopause and ALL the changes that brings about so quickly in their lives.
Thank you for posting the photo, Nonie.  |
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Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:31 pm |
| AngelaE7777 wrote: |
| zwayny11 wrote: |
| I think Carolyn Cleaves looks exactly her age 65! There are other people who had better results. |
I have to agree. She looks okay, but I don't think she looks overly young for her age and when I asked my husband for his point of view he said (his words, not mine...I think she's pretty) "she looks hideous". I think that meant that he didn't think she looked overly young for her age. |
Wow, I'm just seeing this now. Hideous? You must be breathtakingly gorgeous because if your husband thinks Carolyn is hideous then the standards of beauty he is used to must exceed normal human standards and be out of this world. I imagine he must find majority of humans hideous in that case. 
I personally think Carolyn is very beautiful, and that's even without factoring in her wonderful spirit and personality. And that she looks younger now in her 60's than she did in her 40's is one reason her program appealed to me. In fact, I take back what I said before: she does not look 65. She looks way younger to me; not 20 years old but definitely like a younger sister to her 46-year old self. (Honestly, I can't think of any 67-year old who hasn't had work done who looks as good as Carolyn does, or who has gotten better with passing time the way she has.)
This is she at her 46 (notice the jowls):
Then here she is at 53 when she was starting face exercises, notice the sag in the apples of her cheeks and slight bag under one eye; also her lower face looks wide the way Elaine (Faceworks UK) says happens as we age and everything goes south:
And this is she at 60, looking so much better than before, face lifted up and smoothed out so it looks firm and youthful, even her smile lines look youthful:
Most other trainers manage to erase signs of aging or maintain their faces in good shape and look good for their age. Carolyn, to me seems to be getting better with passing time. The clip of her on the List really blew me away as she looked younger than she did when she made her DVD at 59 the sample of which you can see here. I tried to do what she is doing in the List clip, and my skin does not stay put as hers does. Even the host of the show's skin moves and folds over itself because she doesn't have the same firmness that Carolyn has.
Anyway, I suppose beauty is all in the eye of the beholder, because if I look like Carolyn at her age, y'all won't be able to tell me nuffin. |
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Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:48 pm |
Just chiming in with a little tidbit of info as a 60 something gal;
In a straight on shot (of myself) without smiling, the dreaded jowls are apparent. When I'm happy and smiling (or laughing), guess what, not a jowl in sight, and my jawline looks tight as a drum.
Sorry, but I just don't place much weight in photos. There are just too many ways they can be manipulated. Especially if the *subject* has the ulterior motive of any sort of monetary gain.
I don't mean to sound like such a skeptic, because I do really enjoy before/after photos, but some of them really just make me go  |
_________________
♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:35 pm |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
Just chiming in with a little tidbit of info as a 60 something gal;
In a straight on shot (of myself) without smiling, the dreaded jowls are apparent. When I'm happy and smiling (or laughing), guess what, not a jowl in sight, and my jawline looks tight as a drum.
Sorry, but I just don't place much weight in photos. There are just too many ways they can be manipulated. Especially if the *subject* has the ulterior motive of any sort of monetary gain.
I don't mean to sound like such a skeptic, because I do really enjoy before/after photos, but some of them really just make me go |
I totally agree, which is why I posted two videos showing Carolyn, with the latest from the List Show showing her looking fantastic at 67! There is also her video from a few years ago when she was on an Australian morning show: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFO1gGNt3Gg&feature=youtube_gdata_player, not to mention the one shown upthread where she is demonstrating an exercise. And I find Carolyn looking better with every video she produces. Anyone who cannot see it, IMHO, is in denial or maybe just a hater coz I doubt there are many her age who can dare do what she does and be filmed doing it and have their faces display such awesome tone. Her results are what I hope to achieve one day. Did I mention I am 20+ years her junior with years of face training but even my face isn't as firm as hers or my neck as smooth as hers? So yes, she is my biggest inspiration. And as tricky as photos may be, I do think they are better than nothing; and then when clients photos without any monetary gain also show progressive improvement, I think it sort of goes a step further to support the theory that face exercises work. |
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Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:32 am |
Nonie, of course Carolyn doesn't look "hideous". I prefaced showing my husband Carolyn's picture by telling him about her facial exercises; I think he thought I wanted him to say she looks so young or some such. Add to that he probably thought me showing him Carolyn's stuff was a sign of me going off on a "youth kick" and didn't want to encourage me or some such.
Here is a side-by-side of Carolyn and a random 65-year-old woman whose picture I picked from Google after plugging in "65 year old woman". This particular lady is that crazy lady who thinks she doesn't have to eat anymore; that she can live on sunshine and fresh air. She's from my area, too...Seattle. 
You can see how much better Carolyn looks than this average 65-year-old woman:
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Photo taken Oct 28, 2013: http://bit.ly/17Umeou |
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Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:48 am |
| AngelaE8654 wrote: |
This particular lady is that crazy lady who thinks she doesn't have to eat anymore; that she can live on sunshine and fresh air. She's from my area, too...Seattle.
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If she is planning on living on sunshine in Seattle, she is going to be mighty hungry, lol. (after 4 years there, I practically ran back to FL, lol) |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:04 am |
| bethany wrote: |
| AngelaE8654 wrote: |
This particular lady is that crazy lady who thinks she doesn't have to eat anymore; that she can live on sunshine and fresh air. She's from my area, too...Seattle.
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If she is planning on living on sunshine in Seattle, she is going to be mighty hungry, lol. (after 4 years there, I practically ran back to FL, lol) |
LOL, I told my husband the exact, same, thing. |
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Photo taken Oct 28, 2013: http://bit.ly/17Umeou |
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Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:24 am |
Ha ha Kassy chime in all you want to, as a 60 plus girl myself I sometimes wonder whether I am the only one seeing these things also so its always great to know that others think the same as me!
| Kassy_A wrote: |
Just chiming in with a little tidbit of info as a 60 something gal;
In a straight on shot (of myself) without smiling, the dreaded jowls are apparent. When I'm happy and smiling (or laughing), guess what, not a jowl in sight, and my jawline looks tight as a drum.
Sorry, but I just don't place much weight in photos. There are just too many ways they can be manipulated. Especially if the *subject* has the ulterior motive of any sort of monetary gain.
I don't mean to sound like such a skeptic, because I do really enjoy before/after photos, but some of them really just make me go |
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