Review: Cellese AnteAGE Serum & Accelerator
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free skin care · Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:13 am

Tiny wrote:

DrJ wrote:

Tiny wrote:

DrJ wrote:

Tiny wrote:

DrJ wrote:

rileygirl wrote:

Interesting article for anyone interested in stem cells. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-17012688

My one concern on topical stem cell products is safety, and this remark from the article scares me. Stem cells, which can transform into any other type of specialised cell. This brings me back to my question at the beginning of this thread, if a person has the genetic predisposition for cancer, what happens when they apply a stem cell product.

If you have a predilection for cancer, or even have one you don't know about, therre is a theoretical risk of adding pure growth factors, like EGF. But a balanced arrays of cytokines should actually be somewhat protective, as c=some of them are actually immune vigilent.

DrJ wrote:

tinali0202 wrote:

rileygirl wrote:

Interesting article for anyone interested in stem cells. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-17012688

My one concern on topical stem cell products is safety, and this remark from the article scares me. Stem cells, which can transform into any other type of specialised cell. This brings me back to my question at the beginning of this thread, if a person has the genetic predisposition for cancer, what happens when they apply a stem cell product.

should be safe and most of them use the apple stem cell. i got one product from eleusian...australian local brand ..they have one stem cell serum ..i used 3 bottles alreday...works on me ....

Remember what we discussed earlier. Human stem cells are grown in culture, and the cytokines (healing biochemicals) are harvested. That is what goes into the topical product, not cells. There is no risk as with cell implants or infusions.

Since RL uses a mix, I can only assume from Dr. J's own statement it is safe.

Over the years ReLuma has been improving the technology behind the conditioned media. The current Reluma formulation is based on a blend of Invitrx's three cell technologies: a new stem cell technology ,iPS (Induced Pluripotent Stem Cell). Alongside iPS, they mix Adipose derived stem cell and, thirdly, the Dermal Fibroblast Conditioned Media that was the original formula.

There is a misunderstanding of something I said. Here is the quote:

Remember what we discussed earlier. Human stem cells are grown in culture, and the cytokines (healing biochemicals) are harvested. That is what goes into the topical product, not cells. There is no risk as with cell implants or infusions

This compares cytokines harvested in culture (ex vivo) to injections or implants of whole cells (in vivo). They are vastly different. What I was saying is that the risks associated with cell therapies (immune rejection, etc), are not a concern with dermal application of cytokines but no cells. Not to say there are no risks, just not those risks. There is no risk as with cell implants or infusions is the key to understanding.

I'm here to talk about the underlying science of stem cytokines, only for those interested, and about AnteAGE if questions arise, not other products in the category. And I'm staying in the designated thread. I'm sure people from other companies are quite capable of doing the same for their products, and their users, and sharing their view of where the published science leads.

Dr. J,

with all due respect, you have clearly stated and inferred Re Luma can cause cancer, not only on this thread, but on your blog, you cut and pasted their own web site chart information all over, so clearly your referring to RL. I have every right to address these claims on the thread they were made on.

You also in the quote above clearly state cytokines can NOT cause cancer. I am not hyjacking your thread, I am addressing an awful scare issue you yourself have brought up.

With all due respect Tiny, I never said any such thing. What I wrote was that other scientists and clinicians had published warnings about particular secretomes. When it came to making bold statements like the one out of Philadelphia, I actually offered readers plenty of wiggle room by saying "the evidence is not definitive". That puts me clearly on the fence, if you know what definitive means. Then I wrote in more detail about the link between inflammation and cancer. I need to tell you, that is hardly controversial at this point in time. I think your issues are with other authors, not me.

Again with all due respect,

I like many did NOT want to be putting anything DANGEROUS on my decollete, I must have miss read your cancer concern on that issue earlier.

So I am very relieved to know we have now cleared that big scare up.

Again with all due respect, Your issue is with others, not me. They are the ones publishing the "scary" journal articles. I only bring them up in the context of a thorough review, which is my task. I'm not responsible for their data, or their conclusions, scary or not. You can address them (prefereably with them not me) or ignore them. Frankly, for me it all boils down to inflammatory vs anti-inflammatory cytokines. I fully expect cytokine-based treatments for breast cancer in the not too distant future. It's all about knowing which ones.

free skin care · Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:18 am

DrJ wrote:

Lotusesther wrote:

With all that scare about cytokines that can be bad for you, cause chronic inflammation etc. isn't it time to divulge which cytokines are in Cellese products?

http://barefacedtruth.com/2012/07/06/%E2%80%9Ccytokine-facts%E2%80%9D-and-some-actual-products-part-5-of-a-series/

Conceptual, not quantitative, first Cytokine Facts label.

That is not an anwer. It is not a list of the cytokines, or kind of cytokines, quantitatively or qualitatively, that are present in the Cellese products. Is it really so hard to tell what is in your product?

free skin care · Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:22 am

Lotusesther wrote:

DrJ wrote:

Lotusesther wrote:

With all that scare about cytokines that can be bad for you, cause chronic inflammation etc. isn't it time to divulge which cytokines are in Cellese products?

http://barefacedtruth.com/2012/07/06/%E2%80%9Ccytokine-facts%E2%80%9D-and-some-actual-products-part-5-of-a-series/

Conceptual, not quantitative, first Cytokine Facts label.

That is not an anwer. It is not a list of the cytokines, or kind of cytokines, quantitatively or qualitatively, that are present in the Cellese products. Is it really so hard to tell what is in your product?

Actually, there are many cytokines mentioned, and there is a qualitative scale. But we measure many others as well.

free skin care · Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:24 am

DrJ wrote:

Again with all due respect, Your issue is with others, not me. They are the ones publishing the "scary" journal articles. I only bring them up in the context of a thorough review, which is my task. I'm not responsible for their data, or their conclusions, scary or not. You can address them (prefereably with them not me) or ignore them. Frankly, for me it all boils down to inflammatory vs anti-inflammatory cytokines. I fully expect cytokine-based treatments for breast cancer in the not too distant future. It's all about knowing which ones.

With all due respect you are due, catch up, breast reconstruction, augmentation, ect. are already being done all over not only at major medical centers but by plastic surgeons and the cytokines of choice are derived from fat stem cells removed directly from the patient, actually at the same time as the mastectomy, lumpectomy is performed making many women stricken with this disease go through a great deal less trauma!

free skin care · Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:43 am

Quote:

Actually, there are many cytokines mentioned, and there is a qualitative scale. But we measure many others as well.

Now as a lawyer's ex-wife with several years of legal study behind my belt I may have some kind of professional deformation here, but this answer, just like previous ones and the careful formulation of your article on BFT, are very cleverly avoidng any kind of statement that could be tested in a court of law.
There is no 'this is in it', there is no ingredient list (well there is a kind of ingredient list that was seen to be faulty from the beginning - but still you also claim to uphold FDA regulations....) and there is no clear statement on what is exactly in YOUR product even though you google your fingers sore to find things to discredit other products that DO state what is in them.

If you really stand by your product, and by the science behind it, why this avoidance of a clear answer? What are you so afraid of?

free skin care · Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:44 am

DarkMoon wrote:

DrJ wrote:

Again with all due respect, Your issue is with others, not me. They are the ones publishing the "scary" journal articles. I only bring them up in the context of a thorough review, which is my task. I'm not responsible for their data, or their conclusions, scary or not. You can address them (prefereably with them not me) or ignore them. Frankly, for me it all boils down to inflammatory vs anti-inflammatory cytokines. I fully expect cytokine-based treatments for breast cancer in the not too distant future. It's all about knowing which ones.

With all due respect you are due, catch up, breast reconstruction, augmentation, ect. are already being done all over not only at major medical centers but by plastic surgeons and the cytokines of choice are derived from fat stem cells removed directly from the patient, actually at the same time as the mastectomy, lumpectomy is performed making many women stricken with this disease go through a great deal less trauma!

With all due respect, those are whole cell / tissue reconstruct transplants, not cytokine cocktails. When you transplant cells, they have the opportunity to do all the things cells do, e.g. they respond to what is going on around them in vivo. Ex vivo, they are only responding to what the cell culturist feeds them, the CO2 levels, and a big bunch of other variables that are really nothing like living in a real tissue. There is no opportunity to react and respond to organ or organism level conditions when you live in a flask with your mother, sisters, and maybe a daughter or two. So the final cocktail of cytokines depends not on innately clever human physiology, but on the original phenotypic and epigenetic events in the cells' history, and the knowledge base of the scientist in knowing how to do the right thing to get the right stuff. P.S. I am a big believer in stem cell tissue transplants, and there are things that can be done to improve tissue regeneration in culture with cytokines. Its just a whole different paradigm, and doesn't answer any of the issues at hand.

free skin care · Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:56 am

Lotusesther wrote:

Quote:

Actually, there are many cytokines mentioned, and there is a qualitative scale. But we measure many others as well.

Now as a lawyer's ex-wife with several years of legal study behind my belt I may have some kind of professional deformation here, but this answer, just like previous ones and the careful formulation of your article on BFT, are very cleverly avoidng any kind of statement that could be tested in a court of law.
There is no 'this is in it', there is no ingredient list (well there is a kind of ingredient list that was seen to be faulty from the beginning - but still you also claim to uphold FDA regulations....) and there is no clear statement on what is exactly in YOUR product even though you google your fingers sore to find things to discredit other products that DO state what is in them.

If you really stand by your product, and by the science behind it, why this avoidance of a clear answer? What are you so afraid of?

With your legal background, you ought to know something about patents, and how patentability can be affected if information is already in the public domain, i.e. published anywhere

With all due respect why don't you go ask for quantitative information from others? Or is it only AnteAGE you really care about? I suspect we will be the first.

free skin care · Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:08 pm

Just qualitative information would be nice. And of course to protect your pending patents, I am not asking anything about the production process.

free skin care · Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:14 pm

Lotusesther wrote:

Just qualitative information would be nice. And of course to protect your pending patents, I am not asking anything about the production process.

There is qualitative information there. Stars? And its not just a process patent. Claims include specific formulations.

free skin care · Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:17 pm

DrJ wrote:

DarkMoon wrote:

DrJ wrote:

Again with all due respect, Your issue is with others, not me. They are the ones publishing the "scary" journal articles. I only bring them up in the context of a thorough review, which is my task. I'm not responsible for their data, or their conclusions, scary or not. You can address them (prefereably with them not me) or ignore them. Frankly, for me it all boils down to inflammatory vs anti-inflammatory cytokines. I fully expect cytokine-based treatments for breast cancer in the not too distant future. It's all about knowing which ones.

With all due respect you are due, catch up, breast reconstruction, augmentation, ect. are already being done all over not only at major medical centers but by plastic surgeons and the cytokines of choice are derived from fat stem cells removed directly from the patient, actually at the same time as the mastectomy, lumpectomy is performed making many women stricken with this disease go through a great deal less trauma!

With all due respect, those are whole cell / tissue reconstruct transplants, not cytokine cocktails. When you transplant cells, they have the opportunity to do all the things cells do, e.g. they respond to what is going on around them in vivo. Ex vivo, they are only responding to what the cell culturist feeds them, the CO2 levels, and a big bunch of other variables that are really nothing like living in a real tissue. There is no opportunity to react and respond to organ or organism level conditions when you live in a flask with your mother, sisters, and maybe a daughter or two. So the final cocktail of cytokines depends not on innately clever human physiology, but on the original phenotypic and epigenetic events in the cells' history, and the knowledge base of the scientist in knowing how to do the right thing to get the right stuff. P.S. I am a big believer in stem cell tissue transplants, and there are things that can be done to improve tissue regeneration in culture with cytokines. Its just a whole different paradigm, and doesn't answer any of the issues at hand.

Simple answer and yes I have read, they do centrifuge the fat, extract the concentrated stem cells and discard any unhealthy ones then inject the good!

You may assume because I "speak" in plain terms I do not have a brain in my head, but you are sadly mistaken.
I have read and comprehend way more about this than you might like!

free skin care · Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:34 pm

DrJ wrote:

Lotusesther wrote:

Just qualitative information would be nice. And of course to protect your pending patents, I am not asking anything about the production process.

There is qualitative information there. Stars? And its not just a process patent. Claims include specific formulations.

No, there is the SUGGESTION that the star profile is about your product, but LEGALLY that isn't stated, only inferred. Even if it would be the easiest thing in the world, after making that list, to state clearly that that is what your product contains. After all, the list is already there on your site.

free skin care · Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:45 pm

DarkMoon wrote:

DrJ wrote:

DarkMoon wrote:

DrJ wrote:

Again with all due respect, Your issue is with others, not me. They are the ones publishing the "scary" journal articles. I only bring them up in the context of a thorough review, which is my task. I'm not responsible for their data, or their conclusions, scary or not. You can address them (prefereably with them not me) or ignore them. Frankly, for me it all boils down to inflammatory vs anti-inflammatory cytokines. I fully expect cytokine-based treatments for breast cancer in the not too distant future. It's all about knowing which ones.

With all due respect you are due, catch up, breast reconstruction, augmentation, ect. are already being done all over not only at major medical centers but by plastic surgeons and the cytokines of choice are derived from fat stem cells removed directly from the patient, actually at the same time as the mastectomy, lumpectomy is performed making many women stricken with this disease go through a great deal less trauma!

With all due respect, those are whole cell / tissue reconstruct transplants, not cytokine cocktails. When you transplant cells, they have the opportunity to do all the things cells do, e.g. they respond to what is going on around them in vivo. Ex vivo, they are only responding to what the cell culturist feeds them, the CO2 levels, and a big bunch of other variables that are really nothing like living in a real tissue. There is no opportunity to react and respond to organ or organism level conditions when you live in a flask with your mother, sisters, and maybe a daughter or two. So the final cocktail of cytokines depends not on innately clever human physiology, but on the original phenotypic and epigenetic events in the cells' history, and the knowledge base of the scientist in knowing how to do the right thing to get the right stuff. P.S. I am a big believer in stem cell tissue transplants, and there are things that can be done to improve tissue regeneration in culture with cytokines. Its just a whole different paradigm, and doesn't answer any of the issues at hand.

Simple answer and yes I have read, they do centrifuge the fat, extract the concentrated stem cells and discard any unhealthy ones then inject the good!

You may assume because I "speak" in plain terms I do not have a brain in my head, but you are sadly mistaken.
I have read and comprehend way more about this than you might like!

I don't assume you are brainless. Why assume I wouldn't like you to comprehend? From the amount of explaining I do, and my stated information dispensing mission, I would think you might conclude the opposite.

free skin care · Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:07 pm

Lotusesther wrote:

DrJ wrote:

Lotusesther wrote:

Just qualitative information would be nice. And of course to protect your pending patents, I am not asking anything about the production process.

There is qualitative information there. Stars? And its not just a process patent. Claims include specific formulations.

No, there is the SUGGESTION that the star profile is about your product, but LEGALLY that isn't stated, only inferred. Even if it would be the easiest thing in the world, after making that list, to state clearly that that is what your product contains. After all, the list is already there on your site.

I must allow our patent attorneys to trump your legal opinion. Sorry.

free skin care · Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:58 pm

And so it begins again..... Crying or Very sad

free skin care · Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:00 pm

CookieD wrote:

And so it begins again..... Crying or Very sad

No Cookie so it ends..... Wink

free skin care · Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:10 pm

DarkMoon wrote:

CookieD wrote:

And so it begins again..... Crying or Very sad

No Cookie so it ends..... Wink

Doesn't look that way to me.

free skin care · Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:13 pm

CookieD wrote:

And so it begins again..... Crying or Very sad

For sure...
but at least there's a lot of 'due respect' going back and forth, which almost brings it to a level of normal healthy discourse. Works for me.

free skin care · Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:11 pm

Someone earlier on the thread stated that applying a topical adipose serum to the chest area could be of concern. I'm not sure whose post it was and now I can't find it. But the comment was definitely related to topical application of cytokines and not the injection of stem cells.

Can anyone else find it - or am I totally mistaken?

free skin care · Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:15 pm

CookieD wrote:

DarkMoon wrote:

CookieD wrote:

And so it begins again..... Crying or Very sad

No Cookie so it ends..... Wink

Doesn't look that way to me.

Oh but I rest my case, the answer was just as I expected.

free skin care · Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:02 pm

DrJ wrote:

10Sylvia5 wrote:

thanks for that it was fascinating.

Question if adipose derived stem cells can promote
gastric disease ,migration etc and if it is related to breast cancer in some way, is it possible that that in some who may have a genetic predisposition to those diseases could have that genetic predisposition switched on by using them?

Sorry that sounds convoluted Rolling Eyes

Not at all convoluted. In medicine we call it diathesis. A diathesis–stress model says that a genetic vulnerability or predisposition (diathesis) interacts with the environment (stressors) to trigger diseases.

Breast cancer is a good example. There are varying degrees of genetic susceptibibility, and there are environmental stressors that switch them on. Fat is a big "turn on" for breast cancer genes, and it one of those things is mediated by cytokines (paracrines, adipokines) from breast-resident adipocytes (fat cells) as well as systemically (leptin is a cytokine).

Here is one of the papers we cite in that BFT series (wish we could show you the full text, it's really interesting). Lots of others in the same vein. This is why we are tending to tell people to be cautious about applying cytokines dermally - you want to make sure they are the right ones, not a bunch of inflammatory cytokines & adipokines. Some women apply their anti-aging products to their décolletage - which encompasses a fair amount of breast tissue.

Nat Clin Pract Endocrinol Metab. 2007 Apr;3(4):345-54.

Mechanisms of disease: adipokines and breast cancer - endocrine and paracrine mechanisms that connect adiposity and breast cancer.

A vast number of epidemiological studies suggest an important, but still controversial, role for obesity and adipose tissue mass in breast cancer risk and an association with tumor phenotype. The main conclusions from these studies raise the possibility that the adipose tissue can act as an effector organ that influences both cancer risk and tumor behavior. Here we also review heterotypic mechanisms in breast-cancer tumorigenesis; these mechanisms involve soluble secreted factors from peritumoral cells, extracellular-matrix components and interactions between stromal cells and tumor cells that create a specific and local peritumoral microenvironment. As a special focus, we discuss the increasing evidence for a role of peritumoral adipose tissue and secreted adipokines (such as adiponectin and leptin) in breast cancer; furthermore, the cellular and molecular basis of the peritumoral 'desmoplastic' tissue reaction observed in breast cancer is reviewed in detail.

Keliu is this what you were looking for?

free skin care · Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:45 pm

Yes! Thanks Tiny. This is the part that concerned me:

Quote:

This is why we are tending to tell people to be cautious about applying cytokines dermally - you want to make sure they are the right ones, not a bunch of inflammatory cytokines & adipokines. Some women apply their anti-aging products to their dï¿½colletage - which encompasses a fair amount of breast tissue.

To me, this sounds like if you are applying inflammatory cytokines (which we've been told adipose are) to the area near the breast then you may run into trouble with the C-word.

free skin care · Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:46 pm

Yes! Thanks Tiny. This is the part that concerned me:

Quote:

This is why we are tending to tell people to be cautious about applying cytokines dermally - you want to make sure they are the right ones, not a bunch of inflammatory cytokines & adipokines. Some women apply their anti-aging products to their décolletage - which encompasses a fair amount of breast tissue.

DrJ - these are your words - have I misunderstood something?
To me, this sounds like if you are applying inflammatory cytokines (which we've been told adipose are) to the area near the breast then you may run into trouble with the C-word.

free skin care · Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:57 am

DrJ wrote:

karenlee wrote:

So will we get the samples in UK then?

I'm very pleased to hear about the postage to UK. Will you be able to set up UK based distribution? The customs charges are a killer - and they add an annoying £8 'handling fee' on top the customs - as if they have done us a favour by stopping our items and charging us more!!

Yes to samples. We have a new samples program, with containers that will last at least a week at full dose. Also in airless pumps to maintain product freshness and proper dosing. Limited supply, starting in a day or two.

We are thinking of doing a customs rebate program where we end up paying the fees (not final yet, so no promise), and we are looking to add a UK-based operation in the not-too-distant future. We are also popular in Italy for some reason. Anybody want to move to Milan to open an office there?

Actually, on thinking about it, I'd rather buy a 10 day trial kit than get free samples for 1 week - it usually takes me about 10 days to break out if I'm going to break out. Would it be possible to sell trial kits?

free skin care · Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:03 am

DrJ wrote:

I have no issues with a collection of growth factors, just single ones, because they can causes an unbalanced type of growth. You don't want to just pile new skin cells on top of old. End up with funky architecture. I think of it as the difference between generation and regeneration.

Some years ago I tried Revive, and after about a month or so got bumps on the side of my eye (crows feet area). Definitely not acne or milia bumps. I stopped using the line, and the bumps went away after a while. I wasn't sure if Revive was the culprit, and as the products were very expensive, I started using them again after a short break. Same bumps came up again. I figured the range was probably too active for me (although I've never had sensitive skin issues).

Maybe I had issues due to unbalanced growth factors?

free skin care · Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:11 am

karenlee wrote:

DrJ wrote:

karenlee wrote:

So will we get the samples in UK then?

I'm very pleased to hear about the postage to UK. Will you be able to set up UK based distribution? The customs charges are a killer - and they add an annoying £8 'handling fee' on top the customs - as if they have done us a favour by stopping our items and charging us more!!

Yes to samples. We have a new samples program, with containers that will last at least a week at full dose. Also in airless pumps to maintain product freshness and proper dosing. Limited supply, starting in a day or two.

We are thinking of doing a customs rebate program where we end up paying the fees (not final yet, so no promise), and we are looking to add a UK-based operation in the not-too-distant future. We are also popular in Italy for some reason. Anybody want to move to Milan to open an office there?

Actually, on thinking about it, I'd rather buy a 10 day trial kit than get free samples for 1 week - it usually takes me about 10 days to break out if I'm going to break out. Would it be possible to sell trial kits?

What a superb idea. That might also be the ideal travel size as well. Thanks for suggesting it.

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