Retin A, over exfoliation and sudden aging of skin?
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Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:38 am

I am 34 and have been using a topical retinod gel for 2 years. Recently I got a bit carried away with using hard exfoliants and masks which coupled with a spell working outdoors in harsh weather and an ill advised tca peel under my eyes has transformed my previously oily & spotty but young and lineless skin into fragile, lined, wrinkley and of course still spotty skin.

I know I should leave it alone but it I panic at the state of it and keep wanting to try things to improve it when I suspect it probably needs a few weeks of nothing but gentle cleansing and moisturising to recover. Unfortunately being gentle with my skin and avoiding actives means that all the pores in my face become blocked with plugs of oil and I get lots of tiny bumps under the skin so it is always tempting to reach for the retin a or salicylic acid to try and fix it.

However I just don't want my skin to look so wrinkled, do you think the sudden appearance of these lines and change in my skin is the over exfoliation or can you just age dramatically in 2 months? If it is just temporary how can I recover asap?

I do have a picture of my skin but am unable to load it for some reason.

Thanks for your help in advance!

free skin care · Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:16 am

celtickate wrote:

Recently I got a bit carried away with using hard exfoliants and masks which coupled with a spell working outdoors in harsh weather and an ill advised tca peel under my eyes has transformed my previously oily & spotty but young and lineless skin into fragile, lined, wrinkley and of course still spotty skin.

I know I should leave it alone but it I panic at the state of it and keep wanting to try things to improve it when I suspect it probably needs a few weeks of nothing but gentle cleansing and moisturising to recover.

I think that over-exfoliation can definitely lead to dehydrated skin, which is probably why you have the lined wrinkly look.

I think you have the right idea of just leaving it alone for a while and using a minimal routine. Try the Cerave lotion in the tub. It will help repair your skin barrier. If you are out in the sun, you should make sure you are wearing a sunscreen. (The zinc sunscreens can be very healing, actually, and may also help heal your skin.)

Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:23 am

Thanks for the advice, rileygirl. The Cerave lotions sounds good but as I'm in the UK it isn't available here so just like to ask it anyone knows if there is a uk alternative to cerave?

I have the kimberly Sayer spf with zinc so I can use that and I also have some cream with zinc which is really for babies bottoms but perhaps that would help too.

free skin care · Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:34 am

Over-exfoliation damages the barrier function of the skin, which means it is no longer able to hold water. This can lead to 'wrinkles' which are basically dehydration. Retin-A and salicylic acid are both very drying as they are oil-soluble so you need to quit these if you want your skin to heal. Get them out of the house if you don't have any self-control (not being unkind, many of us are the same!). A cream containing a low percentage of ~5% urea or ~5% lactic acid would gently exfoliate as they hydrate, these are part of skin's Natural Moisturising Factors so will help your skin heal if used in moderation.

You need to work out what in your routine or lifestyle is causing your skin to clog so easily. What is your definition of a gentle regime, what specific products, techniques and gadgets are you using at present? If you can tell us which websites have the full ingredients lists that would be great. You cannot post links as a newbie, but can PM them to me and I will post for you. Do you allow any shampoo or conditioner residues to touch your face in the shower? Are you consistently meeting or exceeding all our government's recommendations for healthy eating?

I am also in the UK and have sensitive, eczematous skin. Honestly Cerave cream is your best bet because it contains the right balance of fatty acids and is non-comedogenic http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CeraVe-Moisturizing-Cream-16oz-453g-Jar-NEW-/150699054659
There is a product called Balneum cream (NOT Balneum Plus) that contains ceramides and is designed to repair the skin barrier, but cannot personally vouch for its efficacy http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mistrys-Balneum-Cream-50g/dp/B003JHYRVE/

I can personally recommend Weleda Baby calendula face cream (calendula for healing/ anti-ageing, plus lanolin for cholesterol/ weather protection). If it is too rich for you mix with a little of this Aloe Pura gel (proven healing and anti-ageing properties)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Weleda-Baby-Calendula-Face-Cream/dp/B000QURQQU/
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Aloe-Pura-Vera-Gel-Vitamins/dp/B0013G6B30/

Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:06 am

Hi Firefox, thanks for your very thorough response!

I have resolved now not to use the retin a or anything harsh for the next few weeks now. I'm have two unopened tubes which I get on prescription which I will use when my skin is better but I'll start back on it slowly and not until my skin is totally healed.

After reading up on the cerava cream I noticed that it is a cerimide cream so I googled for products with a high cerimide content and hemp oil came up which I happened to have in the fridge I tried that over my skin and it does seem to be helping a bit.

I think me skin is in quite a bit of distress as last night all the dry skin flaked off, without me provoking it the skin underneath was smooth but fragile. Already today the top layer is sort of crusting over in patches an that is without using any actives at all so I expect it will shed again a few times before it is healed if I stay away from anything harsh.

My skin has always been cloggy since I was about 12 or so. I have seen a dermatologist who says I have a genetic issue with my skin not naturally exfoliating (hence the retin a prescription) combined with sebum which is too sticky and hardens in the pore and under the skin. This is made worse by a hormonal imbalance which they can't really treat me for as my migraines prevent me from being prescribed the pill.

My gentle regime is this: wash with mild cleanser, I am using Rose facial wash from Neals Yard and am moisturising with Egyption Magic and an organic aloe vera gel with the kimberly Sayer ultra light sun screen (spf 25) if outside. However I have had trouble sticking to it as after a day or two I am reaching for my clarisonic or the retin a.

My diet hasn't been great over the festive period too much party food so that won't have helped but I will sort out my supplements and diet over the weekend as I'm sure that is having an impact. I used to eat an avacado everyday and that seemed to help my skin so I should get back into that.

I will think about the cerava cream it's just a pity I'd have to order it from the US, I could try the Balneum though. I have some Eucerin cream which I will try after the hemp oil. I will pick up the weleda baby calendula cream as that is fairly easy for me to get and looks good so thank you for that recommendation.

Thanks again for the advice I guess the main thing is just to be patient with my skin as the repair might take a few weeks it's just so tempting to obsess and panic that my skin will never go back to how it was!

Thanks again Firefox Smile

free skin care · Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:02 pm

Hmmm, that must be frustrating! Have you seen privately or been referred to a state-registered dietician recently? Plenty can be done for migraines, hormone imbalances and skin disorders with nutrition, and the research moves on all the time so it's tough to keep abreast of: I have to regularly review my supplement routine.

I *think* hempseed contains precursor sphingolipids more than nature-identical ceramides, but of course even a precursor can be of benefit and many report hemp's calming properties. Cerave contains several different ceramides - all of which our skin needs - alongside long chain saturated fatty acids and cholesterol. I just wish it was sold in the UK at a sensible price (£30 plus postage on Amazon! Shock

).

You might consider some muslin cloths for gentle exfoliation whilst you are unable to use the Retin-A or salicylic acid. Perhaps even using the hempseed oil for a modified Oil Cleansing Method as the massage can help unclog pores? Your cleanser looks to contain only gentle surfactants (yey!) but you may be 'over-wetting' the structure of the stratus corneum which can leach Natural Moisturising Factors. Many find when repairing the skin barrier, that an oil-based cleanser once daily and water washing once daily is effective. Of course with your other skin issues, trial and error will always be the way forward!

Your choice of moisturiser is interesting ... Egyptian Magic is based on olive oil which is a source of squalene, a fat which comprises a quarter of our sebum and *may* help restore the stratus corneum. Having said that the squalene content of olive oil is very low, but the link is interesting to me all the same. Embarassed

You can purchase the saturated (and non-comedogenic) form squalane also derived from olives if you are keen to explore this method of moisturising in the future. I love Weleda and my skin loves lanolin so hope you enjoy that face cream. Seems to fit in better with your natural routine than Cerave or Balneum too! It's challenging to find natural products that hydrate effectively, are non-comedogenic AND make sense from a scientific standpoint. Confused

Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:39 pm

I haven't seen a dietician yet. I have an appointment with a neurologist next week to try and bring migraines under control so hopefully from there I will be in a better position to work on my other issues. I have a book about using low gi eating to balance out hormonal issues so perhaps that would be helpful in the long run. I have found in the past that really cutting down on sugary foods has helped with my skin.

You certainly know your stuff regarding skincare! I feel the hemp oil has been better than other oild I've tried such are argan and rosehip seed oil but I have just cleansed with the hemp oil ( had some muslin cloths left over from a pervious regime) and put on a thin layer of the Eucerin Urea cream which so far feels nice and is relieving the tightness quite a bit!

I think if I intend to continue to use retin a in the future it might be worth investing in some of this Cerave to have on hand if my skin gets a bit over sensitised and of course the Welda cream.

I will try and avoid all soaps for a bit to see if that helps although previously I used soap everyday (dead sea mud soap) with no ill effects.
I did once read that Kate Moss had been advised by an ayurvedic doctor to wash her face with boiled and cooled milk to help restore her skin after too much partying had aged her prematurely I'm not sure if it would work but doesn't sound like it could do much harm!

Thanks again for your help Firefox I already feel a bit better about thing and resolved to treat my skin very gently for a while.

free skin care · Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:27 pm

So pleased to hear you sounding so positive! Very Happy

I am a fan of keeping the blood sugar stable and the glycaemic index concept; it is rooted in diabetic medicine, tho some of the commercial 'diet' books are questionable! I have my clients combine that with our own government's recommendations for healthy eating and a little ORAC. Low GI wholefoods are healthy for almost everyone and beneficial for numerous health issues. If you do get referred to a state-registered dietician they *should* be supportive of that way of eating, obviously with some tweaks for your personal circumstances. There was a recent Channel 4 series called 'The Food Hospital' which was excellent, many conditions from skin to migraines were covered. Frustrating how few of the subjects had discussed diet therapy with their NHS consultants!

There is an incredible amount of knowledge on these boards about skincare, plus loads of support so keep reading and posting! I know bits and bobs - mostly the stuff that is relevant to my situation! - but lifestyle healthcare is really my 'baby'. I'm currently making an effort to understand the skin's barrier tho, how we can maintain its health and how to sneak actives past it. Wink

free skin care · Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:56 am

Physiogel is another ceramide based moisturizer. Should be easier to locate in UK. Or at least cheaper to ship in than Cerave. It's manufactured by Stiefel.

free skin care · Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:49 am

Thanks Circus! Just had a quick Google. Physiogel is not on Boots, Amazon or Oneclickpharmacy but tons of links on eBay. Mostly from Hong Kong with *free* P&P. Very Happy

Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:52 am

Hi All thanks for all the help I got for my skin here and for the Physiogel which looks good.

I just wanted to say I found something in boots for about £2.50 which really helped with the dryness and in healing up my skin. It's a nappy ointment called bepanthen. Its mainly just lanolin and ProVitamin B5 which I did read some where in a dermatology journal online had been noted for it's usefulness in dealing with the side effects of retinoid therapy so it seems like a useful thing to have on stand by.

Mark and Spencers also do a range of ceramide creams although I haven't tried them. I was once told by a beauty industry professional that M&S products are made by lancome and excellent quality so I might be tempted.

I have very cautiously started using some actives again but less and less often making sure to use lots of healing and nurishing products inbetween and I am getting better results.

I also revisited some old products such as the decleor essential balm and found them really great where as before retinod use I felt they were too greasy for my skin.

Anyway Thanks again!

free skin care · Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:07 am

So pleased to hear your skin is improving! Very Happy

Lanolin is a source of the cholesterol and long chain saturated fatty acids that I mentioned in my earlier post. If you have sensitive or reactive skin you are generally best using a basic but effective product like CeraVe rather than commercial creams which contain an array of potential irritants.

free skin care · Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:27 pm

I am in a similar situation and maybe Firefox or someone else can help. I am 55 and I really want to be able to stick to my LED light and facial massage/exercises. The problem is they create crustiness on my skin. It makes my pores look large and I get so dry on the surface I end up with hard clogged pores and bumps underneath. I am probably not drinking enough water but I don't have this problem when I don't do these things. I used to have oily skin when younger but now it is pretty much combination and not so oily on the T-Zone anymore, except maybe in the summer on really humid days. I can't put on make up (except very light liquid or minerals) without feeling oily and smothered though so maybe deep down I am still oily.

I am very natural and don't like to use products with added fragrance or chemicals. I even worry about glycols. I have tried plain oil but I think it clogs my skin. I might try Hemp. I find that if a moisturizer or cream is strong enough to cut through all the crustiness, I pay the price with getting really congested and looking almost spongy and clogged.

So first of all I need a immediate solution to help with right now. Second I want to find a way to keep this from happening so I can use my gadgets and continue with facial exercise routines. I hope I don't have to give all of this up!!

I am working on skin thickening and bone rebuilding so that means moving my hands over my face and pinching, massaging etc. But also with some of the exercises it requires grabbing my skin. I have tried with moisturizer and with gloves but same problem.

I wonder if I have to exfoliate? It is not like I am super irritated the way I used to get with Retin A when younger. I suppose I am a bit irritated but not that much. I have some great natural scrubs and mits but that can sometimes be more irritating.

I have always had a challenge with getting a few scattered hard bumps under my skin on my cheeks and tons of smaller ones on my forehead (hair is probably the culprit there) and clogged pores on my chin and nose. I have thought maybe my cleansers are not getting deep enough. I have to keep them non stripping though because I get so dry on the surface. I am using two gentle ones - a 302 cleanser and a carrot cleanser from NCN. I have tried OCM thinking that might dissolve deep down dried sebum plugs but believe it or not that can even dry my skin. I might massage too long. I thought I had to do if for a long time until you felt the plugs rolling out. Maybe I just have not found the right mix of oils.

Any suggestions for any of this or even if you know of a discussion where they addressed these problems I would appreciate it. Remember I am over 50 so the solution is probably different that with younger skin.

Thanks.

free skin care · Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:14 pm

Can you give us some more details please Mommydearest? Aside from water, do you consistently meet or exceed all your government's recommendations for healthy eating? Does the problem only occur with the LED and the massage and the exercises, or any one alone or any two? What is your preparation routine for each technique, including wait times? What products are in your haircare regime?

IMO scrubs and mitts are not a great idea for sensitive or irritated facial skin, because they can exacerbate the irritation and/ or dry the skin. It is worth knowing that much irritation/ inflammation is invisible, so what we see as mild irritation can be our skin really struggling. Sad

I love my unbleached cotton muslin cloths as mentioned earlier: These can be used with your regular cleanser so no extra chemicals and are super gentle. The other thing I love for exfoliating is light lactic acid peels - if you want a totally natural source then use live yoghurt! Not only is lactic acid in yoghurt but it is naturally in our skin so should not cause allergies. I neutralise with water because I find all alkalines can irritate, even weak baking soda. Although lactic acid is not as good as salicylic acid for clogged pores, it HAS cleared most of my chin clogs and hydrated along the way which few/ no other AHAs or BHAs can do.

Given what you are already doing to your face, the massaging of OCM may simply be too much 'stimulation' for your skin. Are both your cleansers foaming? Do you know what the pH is? Do they leave your skin tight at all? Are they both labelled non-comedogenic (will not block pores)? Am I right in thinking one has AHAs and one has pumpkin enzyme? If so you are already exfoliating, possibly too much for your skin type. Which oils and combinations of oils have you tried and discounted for OCM and for moisturising? Whilst I am a fan of natural products and ingredients myself, most plant oils contain the wrong type of fatty acids for topical application - anything polyunsaturated (AKA essential fatty acids) can oxidise and so be comedogenic, anything with short chains can lodge in the pores.

The main lipids in our skin barrier are ceramides, long chain saturates (palmitic & stearic) and cholesterol. These are found in 'heavy' fat sources such as unrefined shea butter, red palm (fruit) oil and lanolin wax! Obviously you would only use these in small amounts. I am not necessarily saying use these, just giving you the sources. My particular reservation with the palm oil is that it has a high percentage of oleic acid (also found in olive, avocado and emu oils, probably others). Recent research suggests this too can be comedogenic by affecting the way the dead skin cells (keratinocytes) behave.

As you can see this area of cosmetic science is a total minefield and something I am still learning about and experimenting with myself! One thing I can recommend is emulsify an oil you are applying to your face with an organic aloe vera gel in the hand. This means you can use a tiny bit of oil to spread a long way and somehow seems to help it absorb. Aloe of course has proven healing properties and is also a humectant (attracts water). This system means I don't use any additional preservatives or emulsifiers on my skin. Cool

Eeep, essay sorry!

free skin care · Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:15 pm

Have you tried exfoliating with a muslin cloth or with microfiber? Or dry brushing?
I know it must sound very primitive, but I find that for congested skin and blackheads a yoghurt/honey/oatmeal mask (and use the stuff to rub with after it has sat on for 10 minutes, so you'll use the oatmeal as a gentle scrub) really works, and hydrates too without adding greasiness. Afterwards plugs come out quite easily. I am 50 and my skin has dried considerably over the past years.

free skin care · Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:15 pm

Firefox7275 wrote:

Can you give us some more details please Mommydearest? Aside from water, do you consistently meet or exceed all your government's recommendations for healthy eating?

My response is even longer so just wanted to warn you all!

Oh probably not exceeding and not always meeting either. But honestly this is not a diet issue at all. This happens when I am eating by the book and when I am not. Generally I eat tons of greens and veggies, small amount of fruit, some lean protein and veggie protein powders and good oils, sprouts, wheat grass. But I also really love chocolate and definitely go through stages of eating too much junk food or cheese or sugar or refined. Right now I am trying to increase my raw and eating very very cleanly. I would love to be all raw. I am known for having great skin and the clogged pores I see are not horrible at all. If I could afford regular facials they would be much better. I actually have thick healthy skin. My problems are really age related - lifting, toning, sculpting, defining, replacing lost volume and bone, evening out skin color, and refining skin texture, which is why I am looking into LED and facial exercises. Yes the women my age who are all raw say they get all those improvements just with diet. They do look amazing. I just find that to be a really hard diet for me to stick to and not just because I am in the North East. I am not sure it is the best for my digestion and constitution as well as my taste buds and lifestlye.

Does the problem only occur with the LED and the massage and the exercises,

Yes the crusty dryness? Only when I do these things. Otherwise my skin is almost perfect when it comes to hydration. I rarely have to wear moisturizer. I just use hydrating mists. I do use 302 products at night. I alternate with their 302 serum and their Vit C drops which is in a jojoba base. I have not seen an increase in clogged pores since using them but also not see decrease. But that is not what these things are for. I tried their Retinol but it was too strong.[/

or any one alone or any two?

It is unpredictable. I can't figure it out. I can see it after any of them. When it is bad I take a day or two off. But it also depends on what I have eaten or done that day. If I have gone for a long walk outside on a windy day I might be more sensitive. Or sometimes I am fine for a day but then after a few it builds up and I wake up one morning feeling dry for no reason and it feels like I have overdone it again. Some days I will do massage and facial exercises. Some days just LED.

I don't have much preparation and that is what I need help with. I also need help with what to use when this does happen since it is kind of hard to always predict. I have tried natural lotions and creams and just plain jojoba oil before massage or exercises. I have just used serums with the LED but I obviously have to use something more hydrating before and after. What do you think of Hemp and Sea Buckthorn oils? What about adding in Helichrysum? It is very healing. I can get as a hydrosol mist.

What is your preparation routine for each technique, including wait times? What products are in your haircare regime?

I use a shampoo and wash out condition only on the ends that my hairdresser makes. It is paraben free. I do think my hair causes some clogged pores in the side of my face and forehead but it happens with any brand.

IMO scrubs and mitts are not a great idea for sensitive or irritated facial skin, because they can exacerbate the irritation and/ or dry the skin. It is worth knowing that much irritation/ inflammation is invisible, so what we see as mild irritation can be our skin really struggling. Sad

I love my unbleached cotton muslin cloths as mentioned earlier: These can be used with your regular cleanser so no extra chemicals and are super gentle.

I had some of these from Liz Earle. But they never refined enough and I would really have to scrub harder and I think I got irritated even with those but I think I am particularly sensitive to moving anything over my skin. I should dig those up and try again and maybe not be as aggressive.

The other thing I love for exfoliating is light lactic acid peels - if you want a totally natural source then use live yoghurt! Not only is lactic acid in yoghurt but it is naturally in our skin so should not cause allergies. I neutralise with water because I find all alkalines can irritate, even weak baking soda. Although lactic acid is not as good as salicylic acid for clogged pores, it HAS cleared most of my chin clogs and hydrated along the way which few/ no other AHAs or BHAs can do.

What do you mean by live yogurt? Is all yogurt live? I have done aspirin masks before. What do you think of those? I have tried all the acids at one time or another. I could try a gentle one again I guess. What about trans Retinol? THat is supposed to be gentler. I have to find a way to refine my pores and get rid of orange peel. Thanks for the yogurt suggestion. I actually did try a sample of Dr. Colbert's exfoliation disks. I believe they are fruit and lactic acid and they are on a pad that has some texture to it. But I had not been doing any massage or exercises of LED for a while and the next day after I used it and all the tiny hard plugs on my forehead rolled off! I am not sure how often I could do it though. Maybe once a week at the most and unless I can figure out a way to do my massage and other things without irritating I am not sure I can do it at all.

Given what you are already doing to your face, the massaging of OCM may simply be too much 'stimulation' for your skin. Are both your cleansers foaming?

not foaming

Do you know what the pH is?

no but I would guess they are pH balanced. These formulators are very careful.

Do they leave your skin tight at all?

no not tight at all. I am sure they are both non-comedogenic (will not block pores)?
yes and no acids in either. Am I right in thinking one has AHAs and one has pumpkin enzyme?

Don't think there is any pumpkin enzyme in the NCN but will check.

If so you are already exfoliating, possibly too much for your skin type. Which oils and combinations of oils have you tried and discounted for OCM and for moisturising?

Castor oil is way too drying. I can't remember others I have used. Jojoba, grapeseed, olive.

Whilst I am a fan of natural products and ingredients myself, most plant oils contain the wrong type of fatty acids for topical application - anything polyunsaturated (AKA essential fatty acids) can oxidise and so be comedogenic, anything with short chains can lodge in the pores.

The main lipids in our skin barrier are ceramides, long chain saturates (palmitic & stearic) and cholesterol. These are found in 'heavy' fat sources such as unrefined shea butter, red palm (fruit) oil and lanolin wax!Obviously you would only use these in small amounts. I am not necessarily saying use these, just giving you the sources. My particular reservation with the palm oil is that it has a high percentage of oleic acid (also found in olive, avocado and emu oils, probably others). Recent research suggests this too can be comedogenic by affecting the way the dead skin cells (keratinocytes) behave.

As you can see this area of cosmetic science is a total minefield and something I am still learning about and experimenting with myself! One thing I can recommend is emulsify an oil you are applying to your face with an organic aloe vera gel in the hand.

oh great suggestion.

This means you can use a tiny bit of oil to spread a long way and somehow seems to help it absorb. Aloe of course has proven healing properties and is also a humectant (attracts water). This system means I don't use any additional preservatives or emulsifiers on my skin. Cool

Any lotion or cream suggestions for me? Today before I went out I actually put some Cerave on because I had some and was desperate. Totally unnatural but my skin feels better! Crustiness is almost gone. But I feel the pores on my chin clogging up. Perhaps I have to treat different parts of my face with different things? chin and nose might not need anything unless they are dry and crusty on the tips. Thanks for being so thorough and for being so willing to help me out.

Eeep, essay sorry!

free skin care · Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:35 am

IMO dryness, irritation or reactivity are frequently partially a dietary issue. Deficiencies can build up and are resolved over a period of time, so it can seem like problems are random. This is further confounded by the fact that our nutritional needs change with stress, activity levels and with sleep patterns. You don't mention healthy fats in your list of what you eat, particularly long chain omega-3s from oily fish. Chocolate is fine providing you stick with the rich dark stuff, choose a low sugar brand (eg. for diabetics) and eat in moderation! Very Happy

Cocoa is actually a good source of antioxidants.

Live yoghurt is the stuff with the Lactobacillus bacteria that convert milk to yoghurt still present. In the UK it is sold as 'live natural yoghurt', no idea what in the US tho. In addition to the lactic acid for topical use, yoghurt is the easiest to digest dairy product and can help replenish the friendly bacteria in your gut. This can help keep you 'regular' and help absorb or even manufacture nutrients! Aspirin is a close cousin of salicylic acid, it will certainly unclog pores but can be drying. But if you know it works for you without consequences absolutely go ahead.

So did you pick up massage, exercise and LED all at the same time? Have you never had a period of weeks where you did just one or just two? Changing day by day you are not going to know which combination works and which is the problem. I don't mean for you to quit one as you obviously enjoy them and they can be highly effective. Simply to methodically identify whether the issue is overload or whether just one of the three needs a change of tactic. Even if your pre-routine is not organised or very short it would be helpful to know what it is. Do you just cleanse and crack straight on, do you apply anything, do you have a wait time?

Triggers can be the most unexpected thing; you may have seen me post before that shampoo bubbles running down my arm was my main eczema trigger. It took me years to work this out because shampoo didn't visibly irritate anywhere else ... Once I quit sulphates my face and scalp became less oily overnight, revealing a very mild and thus unrecognised 'symptom'. I often started itching at work which I put down the air con, not the shampoo I had used a couple of hours before! When I drink alcohol the next day my eczema is improved, and the day after that worsened. Blooming complicated.

So IMO do not assume anything about your cleansers or hair products, it would be helpful to know if they are the same pH as skin (~5.5) or pH balanced (~7) or something else. I am not critiquing the formulators, just trying to eliminate stuff bit by bit. It is impossible to formulate a product that works for everyone, they would go mad trying! All they can do is leave out nasties like parabens, common allergens and limit the percentage of, say, coconut oil. There are quite a few irritants/ pore blockers amongst the common ingredients for shampoos and conditioners.

In one sense CeraVe is more natural than most plant oils because it is formulated to contain the ratio of lipids that best replenish the stratus corneum - unfortunately that is in a base of an artificial base cream. Moisturisers do more than hydrate, they can calm, protect and help repair. Using hydrosols without a regular occlusive/ emollient *may* be leaching the skin's natural moisturising factors from the skin - this can make it behave strangely. I'd recommend sticking to just the CeraVe daily for a few days as a sort of test. If that resolves or improves the issues you have with massaging or doing exercises we are a step forward in understanding, then can find a suitable natural alternative. Hemp, sunflower and sea buckthorn are all high in polyunsaturates/ EFAs: if you have unsaturated oils in your cleansers, ideally your moisturiser would complement that by supplying saturates and cholesterol. Are you wearing a zinc sunscreen?

free skin care · Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:54 am

[quote="Firefox7275"]IMO dryness, irritation or reactivity are frequently partially a dietary issue.

well it could be diet, but I don't have it when I am not doing these things and it feels like irritation and I want to figure out how not to get irritated. But perhaps if I had more of something in my diet I might not get so irritated. Oh, did I tell you I don't drink water enough? I used to always carry a water bottle around and I have gotten really bad about it. So that could be part of it.
I eat healthy fats including taking fish oils. I did used to eat wild caught salmon a few times a week but it is so expensive. I have to start eating that again. I am kind of mixed up a bit with my diet because I have been trying to be raw and that means getting my oils from avocados or nuts and not fish. I still have not figured out the my Holy Grail diet. I am just haunted by how amazing the middle aged raw women look. Amazing! So it keeps tugging at me.

Yeah, I have a problem with all dairy. I take many strains of friendly bacteria though. I think all organic yogurts are live here but not sure.

I did not pick up all the things I am doing at the ame time. I used to do LED but stopped. Put it away on my shelf because I got too dry. I have been doing exercises off and on but just recently started added in massage and more that builds bone where you move your hands over your tensed muscle and where you grag a chunk of skin. I experimented with these before but never kept up and did notice irritation then too. You know I work really hard so maybe I am just putting too much pressure into this. I have a good diet. Surely my diet can't be worse than all these other women who do these things. Maybe it is the water. Maybe it is that I am working too hard at it for the level I am at. They say the skin toughens up.

I can't do the exercises every day. I build too much. I have a strong face. So I do break it up. The massage is supposed to be good every day though. Before all of them I just wash and lube up with either oil or lotion. I always wash way in advance. I just think I need oils or moisturizers that replace natural oils of the skin better. I used to do exercises that did not require facial handling and perhaps that is best for me.

I would have to get pH strips to test my shampoo I guess. Ok now you are going to get angry at me but I do not wear sunscreen every day. I have less wrinkles and less sun spots than women half my age. I have gone under those lights that read the damage. I was very low in Vit D and in addition to taking more I stopped wearing it every day after I saw this one doctor who was kind of a specialist in bone disorders. He is a little cutting edge I have to admit. Also I have Osteopenia. I used to wear every day and then I started seeing enough naturopathic doctors here who all started telling me the sun is not the enemy we thought it was and that here in the North East we don't need it every day all day. It also clogs my pores. They all do. It is another layer on my face. My skin likes to breath. I am so simple during the day. I never wear make up on my face unless I have to. All of this stuff clogs. I live in NYC and am indoors most of the time. When I am out there is indirect sun or it is early or late. I now they say we need the sun screen for indoors too though because of the lights. We have those natural lights but some people say even those and computers are supposed to be bad for the skin. I have not found a sunscreen I like at all. Still looking.Oh I did like that expensive one from France I think. Can't remember what it is. Not natural though. That said - I know sun can make pores large and skin texture courser. I know women who are very light and they always wear sunscreen and their skin is poreless. They would be poreless anyway though I think. My mother is Japanese and she never wore sunscreen and she was raised on a farm. She is still poreless. Of course she was young long ago but she lived in CA! She had lots of sun. Whenever I am outside during the warmer months I do wear it. Just not in the colder months or when I am outside for 15 minutes walking from our apt to the subway or down streets with tall building on all sides.

Do you think there is a more natural version of CeraVe out there? I think they have one for the face but I used the lotion . My skin is really much improved tonight I have to say! But I still have the same issue. I want to refine the surface. Did you find the yogurt did that for you or just cleared out pores?

free skin care · Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:12 am

Oh I also wanted to say that is not actually hydrosols that I use. They are actually moisturizing mists with heavy water. Yeah, I admit I believe in that kind of stuff. They don't have oil in them but now that I think of it, I have been mixing with a bit of oil this winter more. I forgot about that. I was doing jojoba until I started thinking it was clogging and not even moisturizing enough for me. I have lately been experimenting with Baobab, Marula and Argon. Oh and I have lots of organic shea at home and it is actually really great for my skin but I thought it was too rich to use on the face except for spots one in a while.

Also I see that 302 has a sunscreen now that would be nice. So I will most likely use when it am outside more and use that as my moisturizer too. I am very curious of why CeraVe works so well though and can't believe there is not chemical free version of it somewhere.

free skin care · Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:40 am

Ha ha I am not angry! I don't wear sunblock every day either. Embarassed

I strongly recommend you keep getting your long chain omega-3s from fish body oils OR a marine algae extract and do not rely solely on plant sources. Most nuts and seeds are rich in omega-6s but low in omega-3s. Furthermore the human body converts only ~10% of short chain omega-3s to the useable long chain format. To get 2-3g per day of DHA & EPA the amount of specific seed oils you need to consume are prohibitive. I am not suggesting your diet is terrible, but the health of our largest organ is a complex 'sum' of genetics, age, diet, other lifestyle factors including sleep and stress levels, health conditions and medication, weather and climate, skincare routine, exposure to pollution or central heating ... Obviously we cannot control all these!!

It's worth remembering with non-mainstream dietary practices that proponents are not simply adding raw foods to their diet, they are eliminating cooked ones. Since almost all junk/ snack/ processed foods are cooked and most fruit and veggies can be eaten raw, by its very nature raw is closer to meeting the official recommendations for healthy eating than the average Western diet is! Laughing

What many people don't appreciate is that many of the official guidelines are maximums and minimums, not ideals to aim for most of the time, and they are designed to work in harmony with one another. I am not trying to be negative about raw food here, simply that the assumptions made about WHY they are effective are not always logical. I have most of my nutrition clients eat low glycaemic index wholefoods.

My work background is healthcare - from pharmacy to lifestyle - so I look for natural therapies that are backed by research or at least sound theories. Cerave is effective because it supplies ceramides, long chain saturated fatty acids and cholesterol in the proportions found in the skin barrier. Research shows our skin's production of these deplete with age, especially cholesterol. It's one of those quirks of nature that the lipids which work topically are the exact opposite of what oils we would take in our diet for optimum health!! This area of cosmetic science (corneobiology and corneotherapy) is relatively 'new'; not so many years ago the stratus corneum was thought to be an inactive dead layer. You could purchase ceramide complex from here and make your own cream http://www.makingcosmetics.com/Ceramide-Complex-p328.html

AFAIK nature-identical ceramides must be made or isolated in a lab, so a natural version is not possible. You can however supply your skin with natural oils and butters that contain cholesterol, stearic and palmitic acid and this is the route I am exploring with my own skin. Perhaps like you, I believe that the combination of 'chemicals' found in natural ingredients like aloe vera and unrefined shea are often the most effective because we have evolved alongside them for millions of years. On the flip side many of the oils and waxes used today in cosmetics are highly refined from tiny seeds so would likely not have been available to our hunter-gatherer ancestors.

Shea butter has a VERY high percentage of the long chain saturated fatty acid stearic acid, so it helps repair the skin barrier and is considered non-comedogenic (won't block pores). It works well for me too, so well it almost 'cured' my eczema temporarily which is more than my strong prescription steroid cream did! I believe it did so by helping to repair my skin barrier and protecting the irritated area it from the shampoo bubbles. Cool

Lanolin is another wonderful natural ingredient, a good source of cholesterol with a silky texture. Visibly plumps my lines within a few hours of applying a product containing it!!

HTH!

free skin care · Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:52 pm

grrr, I've been messing up repeatedly today!

free skin care · Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:53 pm

Lotusesther wrote:

Have you tried exfoliating with a muslin cloth or with microfiber? Or dry brushing?
I know it must sound very primitive, but I find that for congested skin and blackheads a yoghurt/honey/oatmeal mask (and use the stuff to rub with after it has sat on for 10 minutes, so you'll use the oatmeal as a gentle scrub) really works, and hydrates too without adding greasiness. Afterwards plugs come out quite easily. I am 50 and my skin has dried considerably over the past years.

I don't know if this got lost in all that excitement... but I've had friends who swear by this mask. It seems ideal for those who can't handle products & oils. Nourishing, hydrating, exfoliating... seems almost too good to be true from something I'd just eat. And which I believe I may have, as they masked. Laughing

free skin care · Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:55 pm

I have eczema patches on my body the last few years that I scratch until they bleed! That is a whole other problem! They have gotten better since I cleaned up my diet recently. I think it could have been a gluten thing. I am no longer eating any of that or refined sugar. Yes, for as much as I know I was putting that stuff in my mouth. I am not all that disciplined as I have aged it seems. But I may have turned over a new leaf. Sometimes it is all in your mind and how you view things. I think I have taken a turn. Low glycemic is good for me too. Really helps my foggy brain and with fatigue. I just had a raw soup this morning and I feel great. I also regularly make a Hippocrates like juice that I love. I do like cooked though. I don't like some veggies raw and I don't care for sprouted grains and sprouted legumes! I don't care how good they are for me I won't eat them if I don't like them. I do fell good when I eat animal protein. Do you think the O Blood type thing has any merit to it or just hog wash?

Maybe I should get the ceramide and add it to other lotions I have? My concern with shea on my face is that it feels so thick I don't think it lets my skin breathe. Wonder if I could mix with aloe gel. I work for a store that sells body products made in South Africa and they have been using these oils from plants to combat the extreme dryness for ages. All the body moisturizers have some shea in them and most also have aloe. I love butters on my body. Love Cocoa Butter too. Hope that is ok. I have one that I get from a supplier that is to die for and I mix it with Shea. But .....even this has not fixed my eczema sores. One doctor suggested I take an allergy pill. It was reducing them. I did not want to take it forever so I stopped. But maybe it was the gluten and that is why the allergy pills helped. I do not have Celiac but I am sure I am intolerant. Could be the glycemic thing too. I was very busy for 1 1/2 years and just getting to work on time was a challenge for me. I tried to be careful with diet but was not great.

I think one reason I get the hard bumps under my skin is that the outside horney layer is tougher and keeping things trapped. That is why I started thinking I needed to exfoliate . Maybe I should try lactic or fruit acids. Only once a week or even every other.

My mother used to use lanolin hand cream when I was younger and I loved the smell. I see you use Lanolips. I have been meaning to try that.

Thank you so much for being so generous with sharing your knowledge. I am copying all of your posts by the way. The CeraVe does seem to be helping my face and I can see that even my pores look smaller. This goes against everything I believe in. I only got it once in an emergency when I was out. But womens skin changes when you get older. I still think I should avoid it on my chin and nose.

How long do you keep your yogurt mask on by the way?

Oh and I don't think I am taking enough fish oils. I take Nordic Naturals because I think they are very pure. They are so expensive. I should probably take twice as much! Every Fall I have tons of hair loss. One doctor suggested I increase my Fish Oil. Have you ever heard of such a thing?

Sorry to be taking advantage of your knowledge here. You are in the UK? What part I am across the ocean here in NYC. Very cold out now.

free skin care · Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:05 pm

Lactic acid ---
What do you guys think about putting lactic acid in body lotion? You can buy it is liquid form. Sorry about all my long posts. I think that yogurt/honey/almond mask sounds great.

free skin care · Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:08 pm

When I overdo the retin a, my skin falls off and the rest is left with red, dehydrated looking areas, super gross. I get rid of all the lotions and wash with water, and use nothing but emu oil. Seems to be the only thing that treats it for me, I think of it as more like a chemical burn rather than simply irritated skin. For me its always temporary, and a mistake I make a couple times a year.

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