My first dermaroll with a 1.5mm
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free skin care · Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:08 am

Well, I had procastinated long enough! Had all the equipment I needed so decided to do a derma roll tonight.

I had some numbing cream which I applied for about 50 mins. My top lip area was numb but the rest fell pretty normal.

It still hurt a little, but was bearable, I rolled lightly but thoroughly. My full face, neck and decollatage area. I didn't think anything was really happening at first but by the time I got to my neck area my face was extremely hot and red!! My the time I finished I looked like a lobster, and it was so hot!!

I covered my face in Infadolan after splashing with some cold water. This helped, and within an hour the redness had diminished.

I am just going to keep applying the Infadolan tomorrow and then maybe continue with my actives after that.
I intend to do a series of these, maybe one a month or every six weeks, I'll see how I go.

There is no way I could go out after doing this, which is what I read on the makemeheal forum!!! I look like I should be in one of those bad comedy shows where the character fell asleep in a sunbed!!

Will see how I look tomorrow, but don't want to apply make up for at least 2 days, which is what I read is recommended. I will not be going out tomorrow!

I am interested in seeing how this progresses, and am willing to give it at least 6 months. My skin is pretty good, mainly doing it for collegen production.

Anyone like to join in with their experiences.

free skin care · Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:42 pm

Congratulations on your first roll. It takes a lot of courage to work up to it doesn't it? Well, I did one roll a year ago and I am planning on doing another one this month. I am trying to get myself in the mindset to do it. The first time I rolled the blood spots were all over my face. I said to myself, what are you doing? It really seems so barbaric. I didn't feel a thing after I applied the Emla. The visual is what bothered me the most. I think every three to six months for a deep roll is about right. Too bad it takes a while for the results to show.

free skin care · Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:46 pm

I'd love to hear more about both of your results. I've had a dermaroller now for two or more years..and just can't get myself to use it.

Am I missing out?

free skin care · Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:51 am

Well, I really did procrastinate as I said!! I have been reading for a few weeks, and ordered the roller on Monday thinking it would take a week to come, but it arrived the next day.

I used Xylocaine which I purchased from ADC. It definitely helped but it was still painful.

I am glad it's over with...lol

It is now 24 hours since I rolled. The redness and extreme hotness went away after about 3 hours. Looks pretty normal at the moment. I applied Infalodan this morning, which would have been about 14-15 hours after the roll.
I actually just used my LED light about an hour ago. No problems, just did 3 mins on my cheeks and around my mouth.

No problems. I actually feel a little 'let down'? I could quite happily go out in public with nothing on my face! Hopefully something is going on underneath,

I am just going to cleanse tonight with a warm washcloth and maybe put some Skin Signals Cream on, (love that stuff) and again the Infadolan. I did take some photos, but only took after I had rolled, cos I was so red I sort of panicked.

free skin care · Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:38 pm

Oh Bermie - I feel for you. I did a deep roll about 3 weeks ago and looked horrible for 3 days at least! And I hadn't done a deep one like THAT for such a long time. I can't do a deep one unless I use Elma either. Even with a numbing cream, I still have issues. I think I really have to apply the Elma thicker to get it to work for me. I waited about 45 minutes before I started rolling after numbing up and I still sneezed when I rolled my forehead!

free skin care · Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:01 am

Update..Its been about 48 hours now since the dermaroll. Everything seems ok, little patches of reddish skin here and there, My skin is really dry today, feels tight.

I used some HA Acid with Matrixyl with my ultrasonic gadget, this also had red and green lights which seems to be calming, I then splashed my face with cool water and applied some moisturiser.
My skin is definitely drier than usual. I will keep pampering it for a while and see what happens.

free skin care · Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:04 am

foxe wrote:

Oh Bermie - I feel for you. I did a deep roll about 3 weeks ago and looked horrible for 3 days at least! And I hadn't done a deep one like THAT for such a long time. I can't do a deep one unless I use Elma either. Even with a numbing cream, I still have issues. I think I really have to apply the Elma thicker to get it to work for me. I waited about 45 minutes before I started rolling after numbing up and I still sneezed when I rolled my forehead!

I honestly dont know how any one could use a 1.5 mm on their face without using some type of numbing cream. The only place that actually got numb was my top lip!!
i think the build up to it is the worse!!1Its not exactly a relaxing treatment...lol

Just hope something is going on below the surface.

free skin care · Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:21 pm

So very interested to hear about this! I have the .5 mm and have been procrastinating in a big way on purchasing the 1.5mm.

You've given me some courage! Laughing

I hope you keep sharing your journey... I will probably place my order this week. Good to know the EMLA worked.

I keep debating b/t using the 1 mm for all over my face and a 1.5mm dermastamp for problem areas or if I should just get a 1.5 roller and keep it simple.

free skin care · Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:12 pm

i'm going to start using the dermaroll for my cellulite on my thighs. How often should i roll?

free skin care · Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:55 am

It's been 8 days since my dermaroll. Skin is fine, a little dry if anything.
I started back using my CP's, Vit C and Retin A.
I use Vit C in the morning, Retin A and CP's at night.
I have also been using Squalane Oil at night because of the dryness. I honestly don't see any difference, but wasn't expecting anything!! I am going to give it at least 6 months.
My first one was the 8th March, so am going to do the next one on the 8th April.

@BCgirl, it would depend on what size roller you are going to use, I think with stretchmarks you could use the 1.5m, I am however definitely no expert! I would say anywhere between 3-6 weeks, seems to vary? I am going to go for monthly.
@Luminosity, I have the .5 as well, but think I might actually get the .25 or the .3 for product penetration. Just to use in between using the 1.5m. They say you can use the .5 weekly as well? But I found that even hurt without numbing cream. So I am going to leave the torture to just monthly..lol!

free skin care · Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:12 am

Well, I did my second dermaroll with the 1.5mm today. Its been exactly a month since the last one (8/3/)

Pretty much the same story, although it hurt more! I don't think I left the Xylocaine on long enough before I started. I really had to push myself to finish.

Extremely red and hot, same as last time. This time I applied a CP facial mask which soothed beautifully! It's been 5 hours and my neck and décolletage are still really red.

I wish I could get some stronger numbing cream. Anyone have any suggestions for that? The Xylocaine is 5%.

Anyway I am sitting here with coconut oil in my hair and my face covered in Infadolan!! Not a pretty sight... Wink

I will update again in a few days.

free skin care · Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:38 am

The Elma is a stronger numbing cream. Owndoc use to offer it long ago, but no longer. I had to get a script from my derm for mine. Funny - before they phoned in a prescription, she had her nurse call to ask what I would be using it for. Couldn't lie - told her it was for a 'cosmetic needle treatment'. Very Happy

free skin care · Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:43 am

Bermie, you are on a roll! It' great to hear about your progress. Still haven't bought my 1.5 mm dermaroller... too skeered still. Laughing

Also, I've been saving my fifty cent pieces for a Safetox and Clarisonic... which... the Easter bunny should deliver soon!

That said, a once/month roll sounds doable, but for sure, I need the numbing cream. Can I ask how you do your pre-roll prep?

I was thinking something like: cleanse, numbing cream, swipe face with alcohol, roll...

Then copper peptide mask, Infadolan...

But one thing I still struggle with is... Sarah Vaughter says it is best to steam the face prior to a roll. Do you do this? And if so, when? It doesn't make sense to steam b/f the numbing cream, and doing afterwards also seems like wrong timing...

free skin care · Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:52 am

thanks foxe, I may do a bit more investigating on the Elma and see if I can get it here (Australia)

@Luminosity I just follow the instructions from owndoc.com. I usually have a hot shower (which does for the steaming part) then cleanse, then wipe with alcohol, then I apply the numbing cream and wait. The first time I waited about 50 mins, this time only about 40 mins and it did hurt more.

so I will definitely leave it longer next time. Maybe at least an hour.

afterwards a just applied a Copper Peptide mask that I got from owndoc as well, this was very soothing. Then applied the Infadolan again from owndoc.

I also make sure to disinfect everything, roller , roller holder, wash hands etc.

free skin care · Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:29 am

Bermie2 wrote:

thanks foxe, I may do a bit more investigating on the Elma and see if I can get it here (Australia)

@Luminosity I just follow the instructions from owndoc.com. I usually have a hot shower (which does for the steaming part) then cleanse, then wipe with alcohol, then I apply the numbing cream and wait. The first time I waited about 50 mins, this time only about 40 mins and it did hurt more.

so I will definitely leave it longer next time. Maybe at least an hour.

afterwards a just applied a Copper Peptide mask that I got from owndoc as well, this was very soothing. Then applied the Infadolan again from owndoc.

I also make sure to disinfect everything, roller , roller holder, wash hands etc.

Ok, great... that's what I was thinking. I questioned the steaming because I figured that the skin softening would be mitigated by the long numbing process... But a hot shower is not too much of an extra step, or even just a light facial steam...

Thanks!

free skin care · Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:56 pm

EMLA worked like a charm for me. I couldn't feel a thing. I followed a tip from one of the posters from the extremely long dermarolling thread. You are supposed to put an occlusive covering over the EMLA after you apply it. After applying the EMLA, I covered sections of my face with plastic wrap. I left the EMLA covered for 30 to 45 minutes. When I was about to roll a section, I would take a piece of the wrap off. Then I would wipe the EMLA off that section, because you shouldn't roll that stuff into your face. The plastic wrap would keep the other sections of my face numb longer, while I was worked on one area at a time.

Bermie2 why are you rolling again so soon? I'm still not sure how much time I should wait between rolls.

free skin care · Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:02 am

Minimally Invasive Percutaneous Collagen Induction
Desmond Fernandes, MB, BCh, FRCS(Edin)

Quote:

I honestly dont know how any one could use a 1.5 mm on their face without using some type of numbing cream. The only place that actually got numb was my top lip!!
i think the build up to it is the worse!!1Its not exactly a relaxing treatment...lol

Just hope something is going on below the surface.

They enjoy the pain? No pain no gain?
I don't use any numbing agents.

Definitely NOT relaxing..but very effective. The link is the original research. I also like the info's at owndoc. There are a few differences, I run with the original.

free skin care · Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:46 am

DragoN wrote:

Minimally Invasive Percutaneous Collagen Induction
Desmond Fernandes, MB, BCh, FRCS(Edin)

Quote:

I honestly dont know how any one could use a 1.5 mm on their face without using some type of numbing cream. The only place that actually got numb was my top lip!!
i think the build up to it is the worse!!1Its not exactly a relaxing treatment...lol

Just hope something is going on below the surface.

They enjoy the pain? No pain no gain?
I don't use any numbing agents.

Definitely NOT relaxing..but very effective. The link is the original research. I also like the info's at owndoc. There are a few differences, I run with the original.

Drago, could you clarify what you mean when you said you run with the original? Do you mean there is a better result sans the numbing cream?

Man, that one picture of the woman's (bloody) face in the article was horrific!! My gawd...

Based on the befores and afters, it appears that needling gives some subtle differences... I think this helps me with unrealistic expectations that there will be huge changes... The one lady with the thin, narrow face - honestly, I couldn't tell which was the before and which was the after!

free skin care · Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:57 am

Luminosity wrote:

DragoN wrote:

Minimally Invasive Percutaneous Collagen Induction
Desmond Fernandes, MB, BCh, FRCS(Edin)

Quote:

I honestly dont know how any one could use a 1.5 mm on their face without using some type of numbing cream. The only place that actually got numb was my top lip!!
i think the build up to it is the worse!!1Its not exactly a relaxing treatment...lol

Just hope something is going on below the surface.

They enjoy the pain? No pain no gain?
I don't use any numbing agents.

Definitely NOT relaxing..but very effective. The link is the original research. I also like the info's at owndoc. There are a few differences, I run with the original.

Drago, could you clarify what you mean when you said you run with the original? Do you mean there is a better result sans the numbing cream?

Man, that one picture of the woman's (bloody) face in the article was horrific!! My gawd...

Based on the befores and afters, it appears that needling gives some subtle differences... I think this helps me with unrealistic expectations that there will be huge changes... The one lady with the thin, narrow face - honestly, I couldn't tell which was the before and which was the after!

Maybe #3 but I am not sure he advocates no numbing cream?

Important milestones in the development of microneedling are as follows:
1995-Orentreich and Orentreich described subcision or dermal needling for scars[1]
1997-Camirand and Doucet described needle dermabrasion using a "tattoo pistol" to treat scars[2]
2006-Fernandes developed percutaneous collagen induction therapy with the dermaroller[3]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2918341/

free skin care · Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:55 am

Luminosity,
pg, 54-55

Preparing the skin
To achieve youthful skin, one needs the skin to be functionally as young as possible. Most patients coming for rejuvenation have photoaging and this needs to be addressed before attempting any PCI.
Photoaging not only is due to the actual ultraviolet damage of dermal tissues but also is the result of a chronic deficiency of vitamin A. [5] The first step toward skin health is to topically replace photosensitive
vitamin A [6] and the other antioxidants
vitamins C and E and carotenoids, which are normally lost on exposure to light. Vitamin A is utterly essential for the normal physiology of skin and yet it is destroyed by exposure to light so that it is prevented from exerting its important influence on skin and preserving collagen. Vitamin A is believed to control between 350 to 1000 genes that control
normal function, proliferation, and differentiation of cells. One cannot exaggerate the value of vitamin A in a rejuvenation program for skin, especially with PCI, because in this case, we are specifically trying to stimulate cells to induce collagen to their maximum. Vitamin A in physiologic doses will stimulate cell growth, the release of growth factors, angiogenesis [7], and the production of healthy new collagen. The DNA effects of vitamin A interact in parallel with the growth factors released by PCI. Adequate nourishment of the skin with vitamin A (not necessarily as retinoic acid but also as retinyl esters, retinal, or retinaldehyde) will ensure that the metabolic processes for collagen production will be maximized and the skin will heal as rapidly as possible [8].

pg 56-57

The epidermis and particularly
the stratum corneum remain intact, except for these tiny holes, which are about four cells in diameter. The needles penetrate about 1.5 to 2 mm into the dermis (Fig. 9). Naturally, the skin bleeds for a short time, but that soon stops. The skin develops multiple microbruises in the dermis that initiate the complex cascade of growth factors that eventually results in collagen production (Fig. 10). After the bleeding stops, there is a serous ooze that has to be removed from the surface of the skin. Wet gauze swabs soak
up most of the serous ooze. As the skin swells, the holes are closed, the edges of the epidermis are approximated, and the ooze stops. Noxious chemicals, however, may still penetrate the skin, so only safe molecules should be used topically (Fig. 11). After this serous leak has stopped, the skin is washed thoroughly and then covered with vitamin A, C, and E oil or cream (do not use ascorbic acid). The patient is warned that they will look terribly red and bruised, and they are encouraged to shower within a few hours of the procedure, when they return home.

free skin care · Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:13 am

Sarah Vaughter from Owndoc does follow Dr. Fernandez protocol, although not 100%. The link does have a good instruction sheet for at home needling.

http://dermaroller.owndoc.com/dermaroller-instructions.pdf

4. ANESTHETICS
If rolling is too painful for you, you can numb your skin. You have these options:
• Numb the area with ice-packs prior to needling. It greatly reduces pain. Keep ice
packs clean by washing them with hot water and soap.
• Use a topical anesthetic such as Xylocaine cream or EMLA. Apply quite some
cream,cover with plastic foil and leave it for 45 to 120 minutes. Wipe it off just before
rolling. It will numb your skin for about 30 minutes. Use according to instructions.
Do not use topical anesthetics on large skin areas and never use a dermaroller on
skin that still has numbing cream on it. Wipe the numbing cream off before
dermarolling.
Rolling the face is generally more painful than rolling elsewhere. You can use a
numbing cream and/or roll just a small portion of the face in one go. One day, roll
just the forehead, another day just t

free skin care · Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:11 pm

I think you will achieve a more satisfactory roll if you use a numbing agent. I don't think you can penetrate the needles far enough if you are feeling a lot of pain. I'm not sure why anybody would roll without numbing first. When rolling a large area, I've read that some people applied big pieces of ice that were frozen in butter tubs. I would do this, because it's not a good idea to absorb so much numbing cream.

free skin care · Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:37 am

Quote:

I think you will achieve a more satisfactory roll if you use a numbing agent. I don't think you can penetrate the needles far enough if you are feeling a lot of pain. I'm not sure why anybody would roll without numbing first. When rolling a large area, I've read that some people applied big pieces of ice that were frozen in butter tubs. I would do this, because it's not a good idea to absorb so much numbing cream.

You are correct. However, I prefer to let the pain be the guide. I've been burnt due to not feeling the pain, it was not necessary. Pain is a good cue for *me* when I cannot tolerate it. I will stop. It's unpleasant but not that bad. I get a good roll in without a numbing agent based on the amount of blood that comes up. I don't and will not argue the point, that is my personal preference.

The research above highlights the need for Vitamin A not in the RA form. As well as C, post roll, but not LAA.

Plastic & Reconstructive Surgery:
November 2008 - Volume 122 - Issue 5 - pp 1553-1563
doi: 10.1097/PRS.0b013e318188245e
Cosmetic: Original Articles
Percutaneous Collagen Induction: Minimally Invasive Skin Rejuvenation without Risk of Hyperpigmentation—Fact or Fiction?

Aust, Mathias C. M.D.; Reimers, Kerstin Ph.D.; Repenning, Claudia Ph.D.; Stahl, Frank Ph.D.; Jahn, Sabrina B.A.; Guggenheim, Merlin M.D.; Schwaiger, Nina M.D.; Gohritz, Andreas M.D.; Vogt, Peter M. M.D.

Background: Photoaging is generally treated by ablative procedures that injure the epidermis and basal membrane and lead to fibrosis of the papillary dermis. Damaging the epidermis significantly can cause potential adverse effects such as dyspigmentation. It was recently shown in clinical trials that percutaneous collagen induction therapy is an alternative for safely treating wrinkles and scars and for smoothening the skin without the risk of dyspigmentation.

Methods: The purpose of this study was to increase current knowledge regarding whether percutaneous collagen induction therapy presents an effective means for skin rejuvenation without risk of dyspigmentation, as the authors' clinical data suggested. Fifty-six rats were assigned to three groups: group A (n = 24), percutaneous collagen induction therapy plus skin care; group B (n = 24), skin care; and group C (n = Cool

controls. The authors evaluated the effect of percutaneous collagen induction therapy on the epidermis, melanocytes, and the pigmentation markers interleukin-10 and melanocyte-stimulating hormone.

Results: Percutaneous collagen induction therapy left the epidermis intact without any damage to the stratum corneum, any other layers of the epidermis, or the basal membrane. No signs of dermabrasive reduction of epidermal thickness were evident 24 hours after the procedure. The number of melanocytes neither increased nor decreased in any of the groups. DNA microarray experiments demonstrated that interleukin-10 was increased in percutaneous collagen induction therapy–treated skin after 2 weeks. Concerning the MC1R (melanocyte-stimulating hormone) gene, gene expression microarray analysis indicated a faint down-regulation both 24 hours and 2 weeks after percutaneous collagen induction therapy.

Conclusion: Percutaneous collagen induction therapy offers a modality with which to rejuvenate and improve skin appearance and quality without risk of dyspigmentation.

free skin care · Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:43 am

I have to say again... the results shown in the link were not that exciting for all the effort involved. I have the .5 mm and have been on the fence about getting the 1.5 mm but now I'm not so sure...

It seems to me there are better results from things like microcurrent, even RF and LED. I'm not saying it's pointless by any means, but if I look at my time, the discomfort involved, the prep, the after care... I guess I was hoping for better collagen production. I'll have to do some more research and get a bigger picture.

Very much appreciate the additional information presented here.

free skin care · Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:31 am

Well, its been 3 days since I rolled. Skin looks pretty normal, a bit dull and dry, which is the same as the last time.
I have just been using copper peptides and Cerave, but it is a tiny bit peely in areas.

I might start back on my Vit C and Retin A tomorrow. It does seem a bit pointless to put yourself through this, but the proof is there that it is benefical.
I do wonder if I am pressing hard enough but I do find it painful, maybe I am just a sook!! It is definitely a long term investment, which I don't mind. I don''t expect overnight results.

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