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Tue May 08, 2012 5:09 pm  |
This study was done with nano particle sized zinc oxide I believe. partial quote from gizmodo.com
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Sunscreen Could Be Giving You Skin Cancer
If it's not one thing, it's another. While everybody knows that too much time in the sun massively increases the chances of developing skin cancer, new research suggests that a compound found in most sunscreens may also increase the chances of acquiring melanomas.
Terrific. We're screwed either way.
The research, carried out at Missouri University of Science and Technology, looked into what happens to the compounds in sunscreen when they're exposed to light. In particular, they found that zinc oxide—a staple ingredient in sunscreen—undergoes a chemical reaction when it's illuminated by bright light that may release unstable molecules known as free radicals.
Those free radicals readily bond with other molecules, but in the process they can damage cells or the DNA contained within those cells, in turn increasing the risk of skin cancer. The tests, which were carried out in the lab using lung cells covered in zinc oxide solution, suggest that it is UV light which causes the reaction to take place most strongly. Which is, you know, precisely the kind you use sunscreen to protect yourself from.
The research, which is to be published in the Journal of Toxicology and Applied Pharmacology, suggests that the harmful effects of the free radicals increases the longer zinc oxide is exposed to sunlight. After 3 hours of UV exposure, half of the lung cells covered in zinc oxide solution died. After 12 hours, that increased to 90 percent.
The big question here, of course, if whether people should be concerned. In truth, this is a small study, conducted using lung cells rather than skin cells. While there could well be plenty of truth in the notion that zinc oxide degrades in such a way that increases skin cancer risk, there's not enough data here to decide if, on balance, sun screen causes more harm than good. In fact, Dr. Yinfa Ma, one of the researchers, agrees:
"More extensive study is still needed. This is just the first step. I still would advise people to wear sunscreen; sunscreen is better than no protection at all."
It will, however, be interesting to see how this strand of research pans out. If further studies—including clinical trials—confirm this effect to be real, the cosmetic industry will have to change the way it produces sunscreen, and quick. [PhysOrg]
http://gizmodo.com/5908501/sunscreen-could-be-giving-you-skin-cancer |
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Tue May 08, 2012 5:34 pm |
| Well that is a tad depressing. |
_________________
No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Tue May 08, 2012 5:48 pm |
Whats more scary the study or the comment they'd still advise one to wear it  !! Perhaps hat's should come back in vogue  |
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Tue May 08, 2012 9:09 pm |
I guess the safest thing is to become a shut-in.  |
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Tue May 08, 2012 9:14 pm |
| onmyboat wrote: |
| I guess the safest thing is to become a shut-in. |
Call us Batwomen? |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Wed May 09, 2012 2:05 am |
Well I guess were screwed?
But arent lungs quite different from skin...? I can imagine anything coating lungs will slowly kill the cells? I know the lungs are quite sensitive and that everything thats on our skin gets absorbed but still! |
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Wed May 09, 2012 2:50 am |
That micronized and nano zinc isn't actually stable has been known for ages. It breaks down in sunlight, just like any other filter does. Of course, people with $$$ interest in the whole thing and some mad "scientists" would have us believe otherwise, and we (meaning consumers) are shown data relating to classic bulk zinc oxide which has this incredible photo stability and amazing UV absorbtion range from UVC and even some of the visible light spectrum, but that has very little to do with the Finex, Z-Cote, Nanox and other zinc oxide forms used in sunscreens.
Whether that all applies to zinc that's on skin is same question as with titanium dioxide. That one also produces ROS, but whether they damage skin is not said. AFAIK.
Would I stress over it? No. What I personally do is I pick a sunscreen that has coated zinc oxide in it. Coatings of all kinds have always been shown to prolong the life of any sunscreen filter and help reduce ROS and other ugly things produced by sunscreen breakdown. |
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Wed May 09, 2012 4:43 am |
I am not about to stress over it either and refuse to give up my physical sunscreen.
I am in Florida and exposed to way too much sunlight, and I can't use chemical sunscreens on my face (eyes tear it all off anyway)!
I am not going without, ZO gives the best broad spectrum coverage and I am sticking with it.
Stress is a killer in itself!  |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Tue May 15, 2012 9:30 am |
I too thought that the study focuses mostly on micronized/nano zinc oxide.
What coated zinc sun screeen do you use?
I've been contemplating DeVita, after reading so many rave reviews on EDS, but I am not sure that fits in the safe category...
| jazzi wrote: |
That micronized and nano zinc isn't actually stable has been known for ages. It breaks down in sunlight, just like any other filter does. Of course, people with $$$ interest in the whole thing and some mad "scientists" would have us believe otherwise, and we (meaning consumers) are shown data relating to classic bulk zinc oxide which has this incredible photo stability and amazing UV absorbtion range from UVC and even some of the visible light spectrum, but that has very little to do with the Finex, Z-Cote, Nanox and other zinc oxide forms used in sunscreens.
Whether that all applies to zinc that's on skin is same question as with titanium dioxide. That one also produces ROS, but whether they damage skin is not said. AFAIK.
Would I stress over it? No. What I personally do is I pick a sunscreen that has coated zinc oxide in it. Coatings of all kinds have always been shown to prolong the life of any sunscreen filter and help reduce ROS and other ugly things produced by sunscreen breakdown. |
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Tue May 15, 2012 12:01 pm |
| fitgineer wrote: |
I too thought that the study focuses mostly on micronized/nano zinc oxide.
What coated zinc sun screeen do you use?
I've been contemplating DeVita, after reading so many rave reviews on EDS, but I am not sure that fits in the safe category... |
I'm not sure Devita is safe in that regard either. I've used to sing high praises about Devita when I used to use it, but that might have been a bit hasty. The joy of having a clear zinc oxide sunscreen had blinded my rational mind, perhaps. 
As far as I've read on their page, Devita claims they use uncoated zinc with average particle size of 240 nm, nothing more specific.
For now I'm keeping in mind that I have never seen research state what that critical size is at which zinc particles become troublemakers, so all that leaves me as much in the dark as before. Only option for me is opting for coated sunscreen filters. Seeing as Devita says their's is not, it's off my list. Finding out which sunscreens have coated filters isn't easy either.
To avoid all that stress (which is harmless, as pointed out earlier) I just use a chemical EU sunscreen. Taking a break from zinc sunscreens and learning more. Right now I'm chewing on a bit of advice from a sunscreen formulator who says that if a mineral sunscreen isn't least bit white on skin then it's UVA protection is non-existent. That bit actually does seem logical and consistent with everything else, and gives another minus point for Devita in my books. |
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Tue May 15, 2012 1:54 pm |
What doesn't kill us, makes us stronger (and wrinkle-free  ).
Even sunscreens listed as the best ones according to this site have several ingredients accompanied with "Organ system toxicity" remark...
I've just received Suntegrity which has 20% ZO, with particle size of 220 nm, which should be an order greater than "nano" size (from my layman perspective). |
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Tue May 15, 2012 2:01 pm |
| agatha wrote: |
What doesn't kill us, makes us stronger (and wrinkle-free ).
Even sunscreens listed as the best ones according to this site have several ingredients accompanied with "Organ system toxicity" remark...
I've just received Suntegrity which has 20% ZO, with particle size of 220 nm, which should be an order greater than "nano" size (from my layman perspective). |
I know and EWG tends to be on the tough side of warnings!
My two Burnout SS are rated 1 for kids and 2 for the clean and clear. I just refuse to go crazy over this I am in South Florida and can't tolerate chemical SS on my face!  |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Wed May 16, 2012 8:57 am |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
I know and EWG tends to be on the tough side of warnings!
My two Burnout SS are rated 1 for kids and 2 for the clean and clear. I just refuse to go crazy over this I am in South Florida and can't tolerate chemical SS on my face! |
It makes no sense to fuss over every scientific finding they come up with IMO. It's good to be informed, but not too flustered. When it comes to cancer, I'm personally more concerned with what kind of food I buy in a supermarket, daily level of stress at work, do I live near the cell tower etc., rather than a small amount of SS I apply to my face. |
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Wed May 16, 2012 9:01 am |
| agatha wrote: |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
I know and EWG tends to be on the tough side of warnings!
My two Burnout SS are rated 1 for kids and 2 for the clean and clear. I just refuse to go crazy over this I am in South Florida and can't tolerate chemical SS on my face! |
It makes no sense to fuss over every scientific finding they come up with IMO. It's good to be informed, but not too flustered. When it comes to cancer, I'm personally more concerned with what kind of food I buy in a supermarket, daily level of stress at work, do I live near the cell tower etc., rather than a small amount of SS I apply to my face. |
I totally agree agatha, stress is one of the worst when it comes to health, and aging!
I live less than 3 miles from 2 cell towers and the biggest stress over that is my service has dropped over the years!
There is always some new thing that is horrible for us!!! |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Wed May 16, 2012 10:54 am |
From my (very limited) understanding the coating/carrier makes a difference in how stable the zinc particles are? For ex Blue Lizard sunscreen (which is either nano or microfine zinc based) has a silicone carrier. Remember this was an in vitro study of lung cells + nano zinc w/no carrier.
Anyway I'm not going to stress about it either, just keep my eye out for further studies. I use euro sunscreens most of the time but I hate having to order them online + they get expensive because I go through tons.
I sometimes wear a chemical zinc sunscreen around my eyes if I'm going to be outside exercising in the heat. I find US chemical sunscreens are much worse in terms of eye sting/sensitivity than euro chemicals sunscreens. On of the best things for the eye area is just a huge pair of sunglasses. I'm like a mole and practically blind in sunlight because I never go out w/out them. |
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Wed May 16, 2012 11:06 am |
| lagomorph wrote: |
From my (very limited) understanding the coating/carrier makes a difference in how stable the zinc particles are? For ex Blue Lizard sunscreen (which is either nano or microfine zinc based) has a silicone carrier. Remember this was an in vitro study of lung cells + nano zinc w/no carrier.
Anyway I'm not going to stress about it either, just keep my eye out for further studies. I use euro sunscreens most of the time but I hate having to order them online + they get expensive because I go through tons.
I sometimes wear a chemical zinc sunscreen around my eyes if I'm going to be outside exercising in the heat. I find US chemical sunscreens are much worse in terms of eye sting/sensitivity than euro chemicals sunscreens. On of the best things for the eye area is just a huge pair of sunglasses. I'm like a mole and practically blind in sunlight because I never go out w/out them. |
How can you tell that Blue Lizard has a silicone carrier? The sensitive version was recommended to me, so I've been considering it:
http://www.dermstore.com/product_Blue+Lizard+Sensitive+Sunscreen+SPF+30+Plus_27178.htm
| Quote: |
Ingredients: 10% Micronized Zinc Oxide, 5% Micronized Titanium Dioxide. Purified Water, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Ethylhexyl Palmitate, Ethylhexyl Stearate, Polyglyceryl-4 Isostearate, Cetyl Dimethicone, Copolyol, Hexyl Laurate, Cetyl Dimethicone, Propylene Glycol, Trimethylated Silica/dimethicone, Methyl Glcose Dioleate, Octododecyl Neopentanoate, VP Hexadecene Copolymer, Tocopheryl Acetate (vitamin E), PEG-7 Hydrogenated Castor Oil, Beeswax, Hydrogentated Castor Oil, Sorbitol Oleate, Stearic Acid, Diazolidinyl Urea, Disodium EDTA, Methylparaben, Propylparaben And Ethylparaben.
Shake well prior to use. Apply liberally to dry skin before sun exposure. Children under 6 months of age: ask a doctor. Reapply to dry skin as needed or after towel drying, swimming or sweating. |
What European brands have you tried and liked?
TIA |
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Wed May 16, 2012 11:09 am |
| fitgineer wrote: |
| lagomorph wrote: |
From my (very limited) understanding the coating/carrier makes a difference in how stable the zinc particles are? For ex Blue Lizard sunscreen (which is either nano or microfine zinc based) has a silicone carrier. Remember this was an in vitro study of lung cells + nano zinc w/no carrier.
Anyway I'm not going to stress about it either, just keep my eye out for further studies. I use euro sunscreens most of the time but I hate having to order them online + they get expensive because I go through tons.
I sometimes wear a chemical zinc sunscreen around my eyes if I'm going to be outside exercising in the heat. I find US chemical sunscreens are much worse in terms of eye sting/sensitivity than euro chemicals sunscreens. On of the best things for the eye area is just a huge pair of sunglasses. I'm like a mole and practically blind in sunlight because I never go out w/out them. |
How can you tell that Blue Lizard has a silicone carrier? The sensitive version was recommended to me, so I've been considering it:
http://www.dermstore.com/product_Blue+Lizard+Sensitive+Sunscreen+SPF+30+Plus_27178.htm
| Quote: |
Ingredients: 10% Micronized Zinc Oxide, 5% Micronized Titanium Dioxide. Purified Water, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Ethylhexyl Palmitate, Ethylhexyl Stearate, Polyglyceryl-4 Isostearate, Cetyl Dimethicone, Copolyol, Hexyl Laurate, Cetyl Dimethicone, Propylene Glycol, Trimethylated Silica/dimethicone, Methyl Glcose Dioleate, Octododecyl Neopentanoate, VP Hexadecene Copolymer, Tocopheryl Acetate (vitamin E), PEG-7 Hydrogenated Castor Oil, Beeswax, Hydrogentated Castor Oil, Sorbitol Oleate, Stearic Acid, Diazolidinyl Urea, Disodium EDTA, Methylparaben, Propylparaben And Ethylparaben.
Shake well prior to use. Apply liberally to dry skin before sun exposure. Children under 6 months of age: ask a doctor. Reapply to dry skin as needed or after towel drying, swimming or sweating. |
What European brands have you tried and liked?
TIA |
Yes on silicones...always look for the ingredients that end in cone eg:
Cetyl Dimethicone listed 2X
Trimethylated Silica/dimethicone |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Wed May 16, 2012 11:13 am |
Always helpful, DM. Thank you!
| DarkMoon wrote: |
| fitgineer wrote: |
| lagomorph wrote: |
From my (very limited) understanding the coating/carrier makes a difference in how stable the zinc particles are? For ex Blue Lizard sunscreen (which is either nano or microfine zinc based) has a silicone carrier. Remember this was an in vitro study of lung cells + nano zinc w/no carrier.
Anyway I'm not going to stress about it either, just keep my eye out for further studies. I use euro sunscreens most of the time but I hate having to order them online + they get expensive because I go through tons.
I sometimes wear a chemical zinc sunscreen around my eyes if I'm going to be outside exercising in the heat. I find US chemical sunscreens are much worse in terms of eye sting/sensitivity than euro chemicals sunscreens. On of the best things for the eye area is just a huge pair of sunglasses. I'm like a mole and practically blind in sunlight because I never go out w/out them. |
How can you tell that Blue Lizard has a silicone carrier? The sensitive version was recommended to me, so I've been considering it:
http://www.dermstore.com/product_Blue+Lizard+Sensitive+Sunscreen+SPF+30+Plus_27178.htm
| Quote: |
Ingredients: 10% Micronized Zinc Oxide, 5% Micronized Titanium Dioxide. Purified Water, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Ethylhexyl Palmitate, Ethylhexyl Stearate, Polyglyceryl-4 Isostearate, Cetyl Dimethicone, Copolyol, Hexyl Laurate, Cetyl Dimethicone, Propylene Glycol, Trimethylated Silica/dimethicone, Methyl Glcose Dioleate, Octododecyl Neopentanoate, VP Hexadecene Copolymer, Tocopheryl Acetate (vitamin E), PEG-7 Hydrogenated Castor Oil, Beeswax, Hydrogentated Castor Oil, Sorbitol Oleate, Stearic Acid, Diazolidinyl Urea, Disodium EDTA, Methylparaben, Propylparaben And Ethylparaben.
Shake well prior to use. Apply liberally to dry skin before sun exposure. Children under 6 months of age: ask a doctor. Reapply to dry skin as needed or after towel drying, swimming or sweating. |
What European brands have you tried and liked?
TIA |
Yes on silicones...always look for the ingredients that end in cone eg:
Cetyl Dimethicone listed 2X
Trimethylated Silica/dimethicone |
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Wed May 16, 2012 11:13 am |
| fitgineer wrote: |
How can you tell that Blue Lizard has a silicone carrier? The sensitive version was recommended to me, so I've been considering it:
http://www.dermstore.com/product_Blue+Lizard+Sensitive+Sunscreen+SPF+30+Plus_27178.htm
| Quote: |
Ingredients: 10% Micronized Zinc Oxide, 5% Micronized Titanium Dioxide. Purified Water, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Ethylhexyl Palmitate, Ethylhexyl Stearate, Polyglyceryl-4 Isostearate, Cetyl Dimethicone, Copolyol, Hexyl Laurate, Cetyl Dimethicone, Propylene Glycol, Trimethylated Silica/dimethicone, Methyl Glcose Dioleate, Octododecyl Neopentanoate, VP Hexadecene Copolymer, Tocopheryl Acetate (vitamin E), PEG-7 Hydrogenated Castor Oil, Beeswax, Hydrogentated Castor Oil, Sorbitol Oleate, Stearic Acid, Diazolidinyl Urea, Disodium EDTA, Methylparaben, Propylparaben And Ethylparaben.
Shake well prior to use. Apply liberally to dry skin before sun exposure. Children under 6 months of age: ask a doctor. Reapply to dry skin as needed or after towel drying, swimming or sweating. |
What European brands have you tried and liked?
TIA |
Silicones are suffixed -cone, -conol and -xane. |
_________________
Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim. |
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Wed May 16, 2012 11:17 am |
Thank you, Firefox!
I know you've recommended Devita Rx Ultrasolar SPF 50 on other threads, what is your opinion on Devita (any of them) versus using a micronized, coated physical sunscreen like Blue Lizard?
My understanding is that Devita is not coated? And their packaging also states they do not use nano technology.
| Firefox7275 wrote: |
| fitgineer wrote: |
How can you tell that Blue Lizard has a silicone carrier? The sensitive version was recommended to me, so I've been considering it:
http://www.dermstore.com/product_Blue+Lizard+Sensitive+Sunscreen+SPF+30+Plus_27178.htm
| Quote: |
Ingredients: 10% Micronized Zinc Oxide, 5% Micronized Titanium Dioxide. Purified Water, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Ethylhexyl Palmitate, Ethylhexyl Stearate, Polyglyceryl-4 Isostearate, Cetyl Dimethicone, Copolyol, Hexyl Laurate, Cetyl Dimethicone, Propylene Glycol, Trimethylated Silica/dimethicone, Methyl Glcose Dioleate, Octododecyl Neopentanoate, VP Hexadecene Copolymer, Tocopheryl Acetate (vitamin E), PEG-7 Hydrogenated Castor Oil, Beeswax, Hydrogentated Castor Oil, Sorbitol Oleate, Stearic Acid, Diazolidinyl Urea, Disodium EDTA, Methylparaben, Propylparaben And Ethylparaben.
Shake well prior to use. Apply liberally to dry skin before sun exposure. Children under 6 months of age: ask a doctor. Reapply to dry skin as needed or after towel drying, swimming or sweating. |
What European brands have you tried and liked?
TIA |
Silicones are suffixed -cone, -conol and -xane. |
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Wed May 16, 2012 11:53 am |
From what I'm told and have read on this subject, coating creates a sort of bubble around the filter substance, so it doesn't come in direct contact with skin. The filter itself might just as well degrade, but most of the mess created in the process is kept away from our skins. There might be other benefits as well, depending on the filter and the material used for the process.
I think it has to be imagined a bit like candied fruit, even if the apple within starts to rot, the sugar coat keeps the stench away.
That doesn't really apply to other substances in any given formula. Coatings vary greatly, in case of zinc oxide, from silicones to plain stearic acid. Coating has to be bonded with the zinc particle, simply adding some saturated fatty acids or silicones to the formula won't do the trick, even if the whole mix is stirred at high speeds for days like any proper sunscreen should be. If it would be that easy, which it obviously isn't, no one would pay the higher price for ready-made coated sunscreen filters, everyone would just throw some dimethicone in their formula. In other words, just because there is some ingredient that under other circumstances might double as coating doesn't yet mean that this particular sunscreen passes as coated-particle sunscreen. For some weird reason, coatings usually don't show up on ingredient lists, similarly as it is with preservatives and solvents used for extracts or actives. For example, Elta MD sunscreen filters are supposed to be coated, but even though lots of silicones and other polymers show up on their INCI lists, sunscreen coatings are not among them. It's infuriating.  |
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Wed May 16, 2012 12:18 pm |
Oh dear... just added to my already confused mind 
| jazzi wrote: |
From what I'm told and have read on this subject, coating creates a sort of bubble around the filter substance, so it doesn't come in direct contact with skin. The filter itself might just as well degrade, but most of the mess created in the process is kept away from our skins. There might be other benefits as well, depending on the filter and the material used for the process.
I think it has to be imagined a bit like candied fruit, even if the apple within starts to rot, the sugar coat keeps the stench away.
That doesn't really apply to other substances in any given formula. Coatings vary greatly, in case of zinc oxide, from silicones to plain stearic acid. Coating has to be bonded with the zinc particle, simply adding some saturated fatty acids or silicones to the formula won't do the trick, even if the whole mix is stirred at high speeds for days like any proper sunscreen should be. If it would be that easy, which it obviously isn't, no one would pay the higher price for ready-made coated sunscreen filters, everyone would just throw some dimethicone in their formula. In other words, just because there is some ingredient that under other circumstances might double as coating doesn't yet mean that this particular sunscreen passes as coated-particle sunscreen. For some weird reason, coatings usually don't show up on ingredient lists, similarly as it is with preservatives and solvents used for extracts or actives. For example, Elta MD sunscreen filters are supposed to be coated, but even though lots of silicones and other polymers show up on their INCI lists, sunscreen coatings are not among them. It's infuriating. |
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Wed May 16, 2012 12:36 pm |
| fitgineer wrote: |
| Oh dear... just added to my already confused mind |
Isn't it? It boils down to this: a sunscreen makers says their sunscreen has coated zinc or other filter in it, for that matter, and we have to take their word for it. |
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Wed May 16, 2012 12:54 pm |
| My best solution is micronized zinc instead of nano-sized zinc in my SS and if the "white cast" is an issue add a bit of MMU that suits your coloring mix in your hand and apply. Works great for me? |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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