Green Tea, Acids, Vitamin C & Chelators DIY Discussion
EDS Skin Care Forums Forum Index » Skincare Tools & Do-It-Yourself Skincare

free skin care · Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:33 pm

{Moderator: This thread relates to DIY skincare discussed at http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?p=497303#497303. The discussion was split to accommodate both the original topic and the evolving DIY formulation discussion.}

Hi Kassy, Could you please give me more information about this "don't use Acids + Green Teas together on the same night." I tried to find the answer myself, but could not come up with anything. Thank you.

free skin care · Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:19 pm

packratmack wrote:

Hi Kassy, Could you please give me more information about this "don't use Acids + Green Teas together on the same night." I tried to find the answer myself, but could not come up with anything. Thank you.

Long story short, and without going into a huge chemisty + boring study bit, is that when an acid is exposed to a metal ion, the interaction causes *pro* oxidation, which is very harmful to skin... (You won't turn into an ugly toad immediately, but those *pro* oxidants will get you in the long run.)

There is a way to get around this by using a chelating agent (i.e. Disodium EDTA), which binds to the metal, preventing the acid from oxidizing and becoming pro oxidant... (Check out some retail vitamin C serums that contain both L-AA + Green Tea, and I gurantee you that you will also see a form of "EDTA" in the ingredient list as well.)

You have all heard by now to keep copper peptides and vitamin C seperated by 12 hours, and the above is the reason why.

Acids, plus metals, equals pro oxidation..

free skin care · Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:19 pm

Hi Kassy, Thank you for the reply. Do you use the green tea pretreatment serum whenever you use the light? Do you alternate with bare skin? I just noticed that the alpha hydroxy souffle used to make the serum recipe has green tea extract in it. I guess you could just use this on your face before the LED treatment if you wanted to.

Regarding not using green teas and acids together, there are green tea and acids in your pretreatment serum. Does this pretreatment serum have some sort of chelating agent in it? Sorry, to ask you about this again but, I use the pretreatment serum often and I just want to make sure I'm doing the right thing. Thanks again.

free skin care · Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:34 pm

packratmack wrote:

Hi Kassy, Thank you for the reply. Do you use the green tea pretreatment serum whenever you use the light? Do you alternate with bare skin? I just noticed that the alpha hydroxy souffle used to make the serum recipe has green tea extract in it. I guess you could just use this on your face before the LED treatment if you wanted to.

Regarding not using green teas and acids together, there are green tea and acids in your pretreatment serum. Does this pretreatment serum have some sort of chelating agent in it? Sorry, to ask you about this again but, I use the pretreatment serum often and I just want to make sure I’m doing the right thing. Thanks again.

Alpha Hydroxy Souffle is a very stable formulation, and not prone to oxidation....In fact this particular cream gets stronger as time goes on. The problem is with an unstable acid like “L-Ascorbic Acid, which is notoriously unstable in an aqueous solution...

This is a quote from Bulkactives about the use of Chelators, that might clear it up for you better than I was able;

About Chelators

“Chelators attract metal ions to prevent microorganism growth or adverse reactions with active or inactive ingredients in a formulation. Use of chelators is especially important when metal-sensitive ingredients are used ( such as L-ascorbic acid, green tea extract etc.) It is a good idea to include a chelator in any formulation for which stability of an active is desired.”

I don’t have any hard and fast rule for my LED treatments, and just alternate (as the mood strikes) with ‘bare face’, ‘green/white tea’, or the ‘LED treatment recipe’ that you mentioned. I also use a simple C serum pre treatment ocassionally, applied one hour prior. The only constant thing I do without exception is to exfoliate with my microfiber cloth every time.

free skin care · Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:42 am

Further to the discussion about combining Green Tea with Acids - Green Tea actually contains a similar amount of Ascorbic Acid as a lemon, so I'm not really understanding why it would be harmful to use a Vitamin C serum followed by a Green Tea serum. I'm also using a Green Tea serum before applying Retin-A - hope this is ok too.

free skin care · Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:28 pm

Keliu wrote:

Further to the discussion about combining Green Tea with Acids - Green Tea actually contains a similar amount of Ascorbic Acid as a lemon, so I'm not really understanding why it would be harmful to use a Vitamin C serum followed by a Green Tea serum. I'm also using a Green Tea serum before applying Retin-A - hope this is ok too.

Ok, so I've emailed my sister about this. She is an analytical research chemist with a PHd in bio-chemistry and currently works on stem cell research at the Rockafeller Institute in New York.

This was her reply:

There is absolutely NO reason to avoid the use of green tea and acids together. If you think about it, the stomach contains hydrochloric acid and many people in different cultures drink green tea. Furthermore, people sometimes include a wedge of lemon or lime with their green tea when drinking it. Manufacturers produce green tea products which also include green tea and lemon or lime. No one has ever said that the acid cancels the benefits of the green tea as an antioxidant. No one has said that it is harmful either. So my guess is green tea with acids is perfectly okay for your skin as a topical.

Green tea is a chelator; it binds to metals within the body (hopefully the unnecessary metals/minerals). This is one of the reasons green tea is applied to the skin after radiation therapy in cancer patients. As far as I know, There are many skin care products which contain green tea and some form of an acid. I don't see any special chelating agent used in most of them.

Here's a link to a study she sent me:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL%26_udi=B6VRJ-4SK6314-1 which states:

It was found that the mixture of the green tea polyphenol, vitamin E and vitamin C could act synergistically to protect lipid peroxidation. Kinetic and mechanistic studies on the antioxidation process revealed that this antioxidant synergism was due to the regeneration of vitamin E by the green tea polyphenol and the regeneration of the latter by vitamin C.

free skin care · Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:26 pm

Keliu wrote:

Further to the discussion about combining Green Tea with Acids - Green Tea actually contains a similar amount of Ascorbic Acid as a lemon, so I'm not really understanding why it would be harmful to use a Vitamin C serum followed by a Green Tea serum. I'm also using a Green Tea serum before applying Retin-A - hope this is ok too.

See:

1) Antioxidant synergism of green tea polyphenols with α-tocopherol and L-ascorbic acid in SDS micelles by FANG DAI ; CHEN Wei-Feng ; BO ZHOU

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18554517

2)The effect of ascorbic acid on total antioxidant activity of black and green teas by MAJCHRZAK Dorota; MITTER Sabine; ELMADFA Ibrahim (no direct link available)

3) The effects of tea extracts on proinflammatory signaling by Frank Pajonk, Anja Riedisser, Michael Henke, William H McBride and Bernd Fiebich (no direct link available)

4) Model backs green tea and lemon claim, lessens need to test animals by/from Purdue University

http://www.purdue.edu/UNS/x/2009b/090909FeruzziGreentea.html

HTH

free skin care · Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:44 pm

EC413 wrote:

[
Do you simply take steeped green tea bags and apply them on your face, wait for it to dry, then do LED, or do you have some sort of green tea extract/ supplement that you use? I want to try the green tea with my LS, and I have some Lipton Green Tea bags, lol. Can I use those?

Absoposifreakinlutely baby! Green tea will kill those free radicals like nothing else (other than white tea!)... Brew it up, cool it off, and pat it on.. Let it dry (SO YOU DON'T GET LIQUID IN THE 'OPENED DIODE' LS DEVICES THAT DON'T HAVE A PLASTIC BARRIER LIKE OTHER MODELS... AND ALSO ALLOW IT TIME TO PENETRATE THE EPIDERMIS, SO IT'S ACTUALLY BENEFICIAL TO YOUR SKIN)..

As for the "acids + botanical" issue, I stand by what I said all along; If you want to incorporate the two, a chelating agent (like disodium EDTA) is necessary to keep it stable.. Of course anybody is free to do what they please and throw caution to the wind, but it won't be moi'... Very Happy

(Nobody has to take my word for this, you need only to google a few of the best manufacturer's who incorporate acids and botanicals in a formulation, and you will find "disodium EDTA" at the bottom of the ingredient list...) And like everything else, you can also search out a few manufacturers that don't know any better, and just think the *acids* are a good enough chelator... Anyhoo, everybody learns the hard way eventually... Bad Grin

May the *light* be with you all.... Very Happy

free skin care · Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:44 pm

Ingredients for Alpha Hydroxy Souffle:

Water, Glycolic Acid, Ammonium Hydroxide, Cetyl Alcohol, Propylene Glycol, Dicaprylyl Carbonate, Stearic Acid, Peg 40 Stearate, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Polysorbate 60, Steareth 2, Hydrolyzed Lupine Protein (Peptides), Green Tea Extract, Panthanol (Vitamin B5), Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E), Xanthan Gum, PVM/MA Decadiene Crosspolymer, Imidazolidinyl Urea, BHT

I can't see any Disodium EDTA in the above - maybe there's another type of chelating agent there, but I can't find it. And as Packratmack pointed out in a previous post, your pretreatment serum contains green tea and acids but no chelator - so I find this a bit confusing.

Also, concerning MY use of Acids and Green Tea - I'm not mixing them together, I'm applying them separately (with a wait time in between) - so I'm presuming this is ok. But if my face starts to disintegrate, I'll let you all know!

EC413 - I'm toning my skin with the green tea made from teabags, then applying a DIY green tea extract serum before my treatments - just making sure I've got all bases covered!

free skin care · Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:58 pm

Cellex-C Fade Away Gel:

Glucosamine HCL, ascorbic acid, acetyl tyrosine, zinc sulfate, green tea extract, sodium hyaluronate, cucumber extract, thyme extract.

Peter Thomas Roth Mega Rich Intensive Anti-Aging Cellular Creme:

Water, Glycerin, Acetyl Hexapeptide-3 (Argireliner), C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Glyceryl Stearate, Palmitoyl Tripeptide-3, Isocetyl Stearate, Cetyl Alcohol, Panthenol (Pro Vitamin B5), Persea Gratissima (Avocado) Oil, PEG-100 Stearate,Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E), Propylene Glycol Monostearate, Lanolin Oil, Algae Extract, Lactic Acid, Malic Acid, Trimethylstearyloxy Silane, Stearyl Alcohol, Hexamethyldisiloxane, Rosa Canina Fruit Oil, Viola Tricolor Extract, Foeniculum Vulgare (Fennel) Seed Extract, Superoxide Dismutase, Linoleic Acid, Oliec Acid, Retinly Palmitate (Vitamin A), Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Camellia Oleifera (Green Tea) Seed Extract, Camellia Sinensis (White Tea) Leaf Extract, Echinacea Angustifolia Extract, Sodium Ascorbyl Phosphate, Wheat Amino Acids, Sodium Hyaluronate, Bisabolol, Vitis Vinifera (Grape) Seed Extract, Centalla Asiatic Extract, Lanolin Alcohol, Hydrolyzed Elastin, Ascorbyl Methylsilanol Pectinate, Tocopheryl Linoleate, Collagen, Butylene Glycol, Carbomer, Palmitoyl Pentapeptide-3, Palmitoyl Oligopeptide, Polysorbate 20, Sodium PCA, Histidine HCL, Dimethicone, Diazolidinyl Urea, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Essential Oils.

Replenix Retinol Plus Smoothing Serum 3X:

Cyclopentasiloxane, Dimethicone Crosspolymer, Cyclomethicone, PEG/PPG 18/18 Dimethicone, Caffeine, Camellia Sinensis (Green Tea) Polyphenols, Retinol, Polysorbate-20, Purified Water, Hyaluronic Acid.

ALPHA HYDROX Souffle 12% AHA:

Water, Glycolic Acid, Ammonium Hydroxide, Cetyl Alcohol, Propylene Glycol, Dicaprylyl Carbonate, Stearic Acid, Peg 40 Stearate, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Polysorbate 60, Steareth 2, Hydrolyzed Lupine Protein (Peptides), Green Tea Extract, Panthanol (Vitamin B5), Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E), Xanthan Gum, PVM/MA Decadiene Crosspolymer, Imidazolidinyl Urea, BHT

I believe (and this is only MY opinion) that the above-noted cosmetic formulators know what they are doing. None of the products listed include any EDTA, but they all contain green tea plus an acid.

"EDTA (ethylenediamine tetraacetic acid) and its salts are widely used and can be found in moisturizers, skin care and cleansing products, personal cleanliness products, bath soaps, shampoos and conditioners, hair dyes, hair bleaches, and many other product types. Chelating agents, also called sequestrants, are ingredients that have the ability to bind with and inactivate metallic ions to prevent their adverse effects on the STABILITY or APPEARANCE of cosmetic products. These ingredients form complexes with calcium, magnesium, and iron, which allows for better foaming and cleaning performance of cosmetics and personal care products. The binding of metal ions helps prevent the deterioration of cosmetics and personal care products. It also helps to maintain clarity, protect fragrance compounds, and prevent rancidity." (from CosmeticsINFO.org)

free skin care · Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:36 am

Keliu wrote:

Ingredients for Alpha Hydroxy Souffle:

Water, [b]Glycolic Acid[/b], Ammonium Hydroxide, Cetyl Alcohol, Propylene Glycol, Dicaprylyl Carbonate, Stearic Acid, Peg 40 Stearate, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Polysorbate 60, Steareth 2, Hydrolyzed Lupine Protein (Peptides), Green Tea Extract, Panthanol (Vitamin B5), Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E), Xanthan Gum, PVM/MA Decadiene Crosspolymer, Imidazolidinyl Urea, BHT

I can't see any Disodium EDTA in the above - maybe there's another type of chelating agent there, but I can't find it. And as Packratmack pointed out in a previous post, your pretreatment serum contains green tea and acids but no chelator - so I find this a bit confusing.

(metal) chelating agents
(e.g. α-hydroxy fatty acids, palmitic acid, phytic acid, lactoferrin), α-hydroxy acids (e.g. citric acid, lactic acid, malic acid), humic acid, bile acid, bile extracts, bilirubin, biliverdin, stearic acid, EDTA, EGTA and derivatives thereof, unsaturated fatty acids and derivatives thereof (e.g. γ-linolenic acid, linoleic acid, oleic acid), folic acid and derivatives thereof, ubiquinone and ubiquinol and derivatives thereof, vitamin C derivatives (e.g. ascorbyl palmitate, Mg ascorbyl phosphate, ascorbyl acetate), tocopherols and derivatives (e.g. vitamin E acetate), vitamin A and derivatives (vitamin A palmitate) and coniferyl benzoate of benzoin, rutinic acid and derivatives thereof, α-glycosylrutin, ferulic acid, furfurylideneglucitol, carnosine, butylhydroxytoluene, butylhydroxyanisole, nordihydroguaiacic acid, nordihydroguaiaretic acid, trihydroxybutyrophenone, uric acid and derivatives thereof, mannose and derivatives thereof, zinc and derivatives thereof (e.g. ZnO, ZnSO 4 ), selenium and derivatives thereof (e.g. selenomethionine), stilbenes and derivatives thereof (e.g. stilbene oxide, trans-stilbene oxide) and the derivatives (salts, esters, ethers, sugars, nucleotides, nucleosides, peptides and lipids)

All of the above are used as "chelators", and are chosen based on the entire formulation.

When I share a recipe, it is always with the 'above' in mind.

free skin care · Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:48 am

Lacy53 wrote:

Cellex-C Fade Away Gel:

Glucosamine HCL, ascorbic acid, acetyl tyrosine, zinc sulfate, green tea extract, sodium hyaluronate, cucumber extract, thyme extract.

Peter Thomas Roth Mega Rich Intensive Anti-Aging Cellular Creme:

Water, Glycerin, Acetyl Hexapeptide-3 (Argireliner), C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Glyceryl Stearate, Palmitoyl Tripeptide-3, Isocetyl Stearate, Cetyl Alcohol, Panthenol (Pro Vitamin B5), Persea Gratissima (Avocado) Oil, PEG-100 Stearate,Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E), Propylene Glycol Monostearate, Lanolin Oil, Algae Extract, Lactic Acid, Malic Acid, Trimethylstearyloxy Silane, Stearyl Alcohol, Hexamethyldisiloxane, Rosa Canina Fruit Oil, Viola Tricolor Extract, Foeniculum Vulgare (Fennel) Seed Extract, Superoxide Dismutase, Linoleic Acid, Oliec Acid, Retinly Palmitate (Vitamin A), Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Camellia Oleifera (Green Tea) Seed Extract, Camellia Sinensis (White Tea) Leaf Extract, Echinacea Angustifolia Extract, Sodium Ascorbyl Phosphate, Wheat Amino Acids, Sodium Hyaluronate, Bisabolol, Vitis Vinifera (Grape) Seed Extract, Centalla Asiatic Extract, Lanolin Alcohol, Hydrolyzed Elastin, Ascorbyl Methylsilanol Pectinate, Tocopheryl Linoleate, Collagen, Butylene Glycol, Carbomer, Palmitoyl Pentapeptide-3, Palmitoyl Oligopeptide, Polysorbate 20, Sodium PCA, Histidine HCL, Dimethicone, Diazolidinyl Urea, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Essential Oils.

Replenix Retinol Plus Smoothing Serum 3X:

Cyclopentasiloxane, Dimethicone Crosspolymer, Cyclomethicone, PEG/PPG 18/18 Dimethicone, Caffeine, Camellia Sinensis (Green Tea) Polyphenols, Retinol, Polysorbate-20, Purified Water, Hyaluronic Acid.

ALPHA HYDROX Souffle 12% AHA:

Water, Glycolic Acid, Ammonium Hydroxide, Cetyl Alcohol, Propylene Glycol, Dicaprylyl Carbonate, Stearic Acid, Peg 40 Stearate, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Polysorbate 60, Steareth 2, Hydrolyzed Lupine Protein (Peptides), Green Tea Extract, Panthanol (Vitamin B5), Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E), Xanthan Gum, PVM/MA Decadiene Crosspolymer, Imidazolidinyl Urea, BHT

I believe (and this is only MY opinion) that the above-noted cosmetic formulators know what they are doing. None of the products listed include any EDTA, but they all contain green tea plus an acid.

"EDTA (ethylenediamine tetraacetic acid) and its salts are widely used and can be found in moisturizers, skin care and cleansing products, personal cleanliness products, bath soaps, shampoos and conditioners, hair dyes, hair bleaches, and many other product types. Chelating agents, also called sequestrants, are ingredients that have the ability to bind with and inactivate metallic ions to prevent their adverse effects on the STABILITY or APPEARANCE of cosmetic products. These ingredients form complexes with calcium, magnesium, and iron, which allows for better foaming and cleaning performance of cosmetics and personal care products. The binding of metal ions helps prevent the deterioration of cosmetics and personal care products. It also helps to maintain clarity, protect fragrance compounds, and prevent rancidity." (from CosmeticsINFO.org)

I'll leave it to you to pick out the 'chelators' from the above list.

Hopefully now we can move on and get back to the topic of LED's in this thread...

free skin care · Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:20 pm

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7588783.html

The above link is for Flavinoid Derivative Patent 7588783 available from free patents online. Within the Description of the patent there is a paragraph which mentions chelating agents (part of which has been cited earlier). I have taken the liberty of modifying the presentation of that information, converting it to point form for ease of understanding. I have also eliminated the examples cited for ease of reading. The paragraph from this patent is as follows:

There are many proven substances known from the specialist literature which may be present as ANTIOXIDANTS, for example:

-amino acids and derivatives thereof
-imidazoles and derivatives thereof
-peptides and derivatives thereof
-carotinoids, carotenes and derivatives thereof
-chlorogenic acid and derivatives thereof
-lipoic acid and derivatives thereof
-aurothioglucose, propylthiouracil and other thiols and salts thereof
-dilauryl thiodipropionate, distearyl thiodipropionate, thiodipropionic acid and derivatives thereof
-sulfoximine compounds in very low tolerated doses
**(metal) chelating agents (for example α-hydroxy fatty acids, palmitic acid, phytic acid, lactoferrin)**
-α-hydroxy acids
-humic acid
-bile acid
-bile extracts
-bilirubin
-biliverdin
-EDTA
-EGTA and derivatives thereof
-unsaturated fatty acids and derivatives thereof
-vitamin C and derivatives
-tocopherols and derivatives
-vitamin A and derivatives
-coniferyl benzoate of benzoin resin
-rutinic acid and derivatives thereof
-α-glycosyl rutin
-ferulic acid
-furfurylideneglucitol
-carnosine
-butylhydroxytoluene
-butylhydroxy-anisole
-nordihydroguaiaretic acid
-trihydroxybutyrophenone
-quercetin
-uric acid and derivatives thereof
-mannose and derivatives thereof
-zinc and derivatives thereof
-selenium and derivatives thereof
-stilbenes and derivatives thereof.

As you can see, the metal chelating agents cited in the patent are α-hydroxy fatty acids, palmitic acid, phytic acid, and lactoferrin.

The above list is comprised of known antioxidants, not metal chelators. Hope that clarifies things.

free skin care · Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:00 am

Sorry Lacy53, but you are wrong again in your haste + zealousness to prove me wrong...

This is the patent I referred to, which the list is copied + pasted from;

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7314634.html

And this is one of the formulas in the claim;

1. A method of treating fine lines and wrinkles in skin by topical application, consisting essentially of the steps of: a. preparing a composition for topical application containing a therapeutically effective amount of at least one polyphenol derived from green tea dispersed in a suitable dermatologically acceptable vehicle, said composition comprising a cream having the following ingredients with said ingredients being provided in the below listed percentage by weight:
Ingredient %

Water 87.57
Carbomer 0.40
Methylparaben 0.10
Tetrasodium EDTA 0.12
Triethanolamine 0.50
Lecithin 5.00
Behenyl Alcohol 1.00
Stearic Acid 0.10
Sodium Hyaluronate 0.01
Glyceryl Stearate 1.00
C12-16 Alcohols 1.00
Germall II 0.30
Palmitic Acid 1.00
Bisabolol 0.10
Polysorbate 20 0.20
90% Polyphenol Green Tea Extract 0.25
Cucumber Extract 1.00
Chamomile Extract 0.10
Soy Phospholipids 0.25;

There are many examples in the patent, and ALL include EDTA, acids + green tea.

I would appreciate it very much if you would take any continuation of this into a new thread, and leave this thread for those who are interested in discussing LED's.. In any event, I for one am done with proving my point on chelating agents.

free skin care · Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:12 pm

Kassey,
I do have a question regarding the recipe of yours below.

You did say not to mix green tea with vitamin c but if you do you need a chelating agent correct? What is the chelating agent in your recipe here?

Here is a list of the ingredients in the mystery creams: (I use approximately 1 1/2 CC's of each active in a 2oz cream or serum for the face)

Face Cream

green tea extract
grapeseed oil
wheat protein
algae extract
mushroom extract
soya lecithin (Supplement gel cap can be used)
vitamins A, (I highly recommend Retinol 1.0% from NCN or Cellbone)
vitamins C + E
hyaluronic acid
SKB
DMAE (less than 3% so no worries there, just a bit of firming)
argerilene (I prefer 5%, but up to 10% can be used)
niacinamide (if you use Olay or CVS perfecting cream as a base, that will suffice)
Matrixyl 3000

Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:23 pm

I just wanted to add a comment about chelators. From my understanding, one reason chelators might be needed in a formulation is to bind to any existing metal ions (which are often present in plants, including green tea) so that they cannot negatively react with the antioxidant (thereby destabilizing it) or other actives. Not all antioxidants react with metal ions, but L-ascorbic acid does. This is a known fact.

It's safest not to mix L-ascorbic with substances that contain metal ions, unless you know what you're doing.

If you are attempting to make your own recipe, you'd probably want to first add in the chelator and mix it up to give it time to do its work before adding in the reactive antioxicant.

Just my 2 cents.

free skin care · Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:34 pm

moi,
I understand what you are saying, if you read this thread there are conflicting opinions on this very issue! I am trying to understand what chelating agents are in the recipe above from the formulator!

Thanks
DM

free skin care · Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:51 pm

moi wrote:

I just wanted to add a comment about chelators. From my understanding, one reason chelators might be needed in a formulation is to bind to any existing metal ions (which are often present in plants, including green tea) so that they cannot negatively react with the antioxidant (thereby destabilizing it) or other actives. Not all antioxidants react with metal ions, but L-ascorbic acid does. This is a known fact.

It’s safest not to mix L-ascorbic with substances that contain metal ions, unless you know what you’re doing.

If you are attempting to make your own recipe, you’d probably want to first add in the chelator and mix it up to give it time to do its work before adding in the reactive antioxicant.

Just my 2 cents.

Finally, someone who gets it.. Thank you.. Laughing

And in case you were curious to the chelating agent for the recipe previously mentioned, this is the ingredient list for the 2oz base cream I recommended that was obviously overlooked;

Olay Regenerist:
PEG 100 Stearate, Water, Cyclopentasiloxane, Glycerin, Polyethylene, Niacinamide (Vitmain B3), Dimethicone Crosspolymer, Dimethicone, Stearyl Dimethicone, Propylene Glycol, Butylene Glycol, Panthenol, Palmitoyl Pentapeptide 3, Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E), Lavandula Angustifolia (Lavendar) Extract, Arnica Montana Flower Extract, Camellia Sinensis Leaf Extract, Alanine, Arginine, Betaine, Glycine, Lysine, Proline, Serine, Threonine, Glutamic Acid, Sodium PCA, Sorbitol, PEG 10 Dimethicone/Vinyl Dimethicone Crosspolymer, Cetyl Ricinoleate, Disodium EDTA, Phenoxyethanol, PEG 10 Dimethicone, Benzyl Alcohol, Butylparaben, Ethylparaben, Isobutylparaben, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Red 40, Blue 1, Fragrance

What a surprise! Disodium EDTA is in there.. Laughing

free skin care · Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:23 pm

I am sorry but nothing about the ingredients to the base cream were mentioned where I found the recipe! Just a simple question. Here is the link:

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=30621

DM

free skin care · Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:44 am

Well I found the recipe on page 24 but did go back to the beginning of the thread where the first posting was! I still have questions, what about the fact the chelating agent in the Olay or the CVS knock off are formulated for the amount of the base cream without all the additions? also the first reccommemded Juice Beauty serums or any base cream. The JB not only contains no EDTA or other chelating agents I see they contain acids one contains vitamin C. Other base creams sold by many suppliers often purchased from here also don’t GOW being one example?
here is the correct recipe from page one, sorry for any confusion!

Here is a list of the ingredients in the mystery creams: (I use approximately 1 1/2 CC’s of each active in a 2oz cream or serum for the face)

Face Cream

green tea extract
grapeseed oil
wheat protein
algae extract
mushroom extract
soya lecithin (Supplement gel cap can be used)
vitamins A, (I highly recommend Retinol 1.0% from NCN or Cellbone)
vitamins C + E
hyaluronic acid
SKB
DMAE (less than 3% so no worries there, just a bit of firming)
argerilene (I prefer 5%, but up to 10% can be used)
niacinamide (if you use Olay or CVS perfecting cream as a base, that will suffice)
Matrixyl 3000

For a base any of these can be used; (After much trial and error with preservatives and emulsifiers, I’ve decided to take the easy way out and use the following as my bases.) This also cuts out an additional 2 or 3 formulating steps.

CVS brand Perfecting Cream (Olay knock off that’s almost identical)
Juice Beauty Serums (any will do)
Base Cream (all suppliers have it)

Eye Serum

1 CC of each active will give you a nice potent 1oz eye serum.

DMAE (Just keep this at 3%)
wheat protein
argerilene
seaweed extract
cucumber extract
green tea extract
avocado oil
mushroom extract

The base is equal parts of SKB, glycerin + any base or eye cream you like. I used a juice beauty serum. (1/3rd of each for the base)

Now keep in mind that these concoctions were made for zyggy with ‘firming + tightening’ as her main concern... The DMAE can certainly be left out, for those who are still on the fence about that product..The other actives will still help with those issues as well.

HTH!

free skin care · Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:11 am

DarkMoon why don't you provide us with a similar type of cream formula that takes into account all of your concerns?

free skin care · Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:20 am

Kassy_A wrote:

Sorry Lacy53, but you are wrong again in your haste + zealousness to prove me wrong...

This is the patent I referred to, which the list is copied + pasted from;

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7314634.html

I have read through the patent you claim is the source of your information on (metal) chelating agents. I am referring to THIS particular quote which you made earlier in the thread:

(metal) chelating agents (e.g. α-hydroxy fatty acids, palmitic acid, phytic acid, lactoferrin), α-hydroxy acids (e.g. citric acid, lactic acid, malic acid), humic acid, bile acid, bile extracts, bilirubin, biliverdin, stearic acid, EDTA, EGTA and derivatives thereof, unsaturated fatty acids and derivatives thereof (e.g. γ-linolenic acid, linoleic acid, oleic acid), folic acid and derivatives thereof, ubiquinone and ubiquinol and derivatives thereof, vitamin C derivatives (e.g. ascorbyl palmitate, Mg ascorbyl phosphate, ascorbyl acetate), tocopherols and derivatives (e.g. vitamin E acetate), vitamin A and derivatives (vitamin A palmitate) and coniferyl benzoate of benzoin, rutinic acid and derivatives thereof, α-glycosylrutin, ferulic acid, furfurylideneglucitol, carnosine, butylhydroxytoluene, butylhydroxyanisole, nordihydroguaiacic acid, nordihydroguaiaretic acid, trihydroxybutyrophenone, uric acid and derivatives thereof, mannose and derivatives thereof, zinc and derivatives thereof (e.g. ZnO, ZnSO 4 ), selenium and derivatives thereof (e.g. selenomethionine), stilbenes and derivatives thereof (e.g. stilbene oxide, trans-stilbene oxide) and the derivatives (salts, esters, ethers, sugars, nucleotides, nucleosides, peptides and lipids)

All of the above are used as “chelators”, and are chosen based on the entire formulation.

Unless my eyes deceive me, this information is no where to be found in United States Patent 7314634. To the best of my knowledge it comes directly from United States Patent 7588783 which states (in full):

There are many proven substances known from the specialist literature which may be present as antioxidants, for example amino acids (for example glycine, histidine, tyrosine, tryptophan) and derivatives thereof, imidazoles (for example urocanic acid) and derivatives thereof, peptides, such as D,L-carnosine, D-carnosine, L-carnosine and derivatives thereof (for example anserine), carotinoids, carotenes (for example α-carotene, β-carotene, lycopene) and derivatives thereof, chlorogenic acid and derivatives thereof, lipoic acid and derivatives thereof (for example dihydrolipoic acid), aurothioglucose, propylthiouracil and other thiols (for example thioredoxin, glutathione, cysteine, cystine, cystamine and the glycosyl, N-acetyl, methyl, ethyl, propyl, amyl, butyl and lauryl, palmitoyl, oleyl, ∩-linoleyl, cholesteryl and glyceryl esters thereof) and salts thereof, dilauryl thiodipropionate, distearyl thiodipropionate, thiodipropionic acid and derivatives thereof (esters, ethers, peptides, lipids, nucleotides, nucleosides and salts), and sulfoximine compounds (for example buthionine sulfoximines, homocysteine sulfoximine, buthionine sulfones, penta-, hexa- and heptathionine sulfoximine) in very low tolerated doses (for example pmol to μmol/kg), and also (metal) chelating agents (for example α-hydroxy fatty acids, palmitic acid, phytic acid, lactoferrin), α-hydroxy acids (for example citric acid, lactic acid, malic acid), humic acid, bile acid, bile extracts, bilirubin, biliverdin, EDTA, EGTA and derivatives thereof, unsaturated fatty acids and derivatives thereof, vitamin C and derivatives (for example ascorbyl palmitate, magnesium ascorbyl phosphate, ascorbyl acetate), tocopherols and derivatives (for example vitamin E acetate), vitamin A and derivatives (for example vitamin A palmitate), and coniferyl benzoate of benzoin resin, rutinic acid and derivatives thereof, α-glycosyl rutin, ferulic acid, furfurylideneglucitol, carnosine, butylhydroxytoluene, butylhydroxy-anisole, nordihydroguaiaretic acid, trihydroxybutyrophenone, quercetin, uric acid and derivatives thereof, mannose and derivatives thereof, zinc and derivatives thereof (for example ZnO, ZnSO 4 ), selenium and derivatives thereof (for example selenomethionine), stilbenes and derivatives thereof (for example stilbene oxide, trans-stilbene oxide).

This is the information which I summarized and simplied for ease of understanding. I stand by what I said earlier ... the (metal) chelating agents given as examples in this patent are α-hydroxy fatty acids, palmitic acid, phytic acid, and lactoferrin; the rest are clearly antioxidants.

Could you please direct me to the paragraph in United States Patent 7314634 which lists the matal chelating agents you cited in your statement noted above in green. TIA

BTW, although United States Patent 7314634 contains many formulations which include green tea extract (as well as Tetrasodium EDTA) I do not see any LAA or other acids in any of the products so I am not sure these formulations are relevant to the topic at hand.

free skin care · Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:28 am

DarkMoon wrote:

The JB not only contains no EDTA or other chelating agents I see they contain acids one contains vitamin C. Other base creams sold by many suppliers often purchased from here also don't GOW being one example?

From the recipe;

[For a base any of these can be used; After much trial and error with preservatives and emulsifiers, I've decided to take the easy way out and use the following as my bases.) This also cuts out an additional 2 or 3 formulating steps.

CVS brand Perfecting Cream (Olay knock off that's almost identical)
Juice Beauty Serums (any will do)
Base Cream (all suppliers have it) ]

Olay Regenerist ingredients; (CVS had the identical 'knockoff' ages ago when the recipe was posted)

Olay Regenerist:

PEG 100 Stearate, Water, Cyclopentasiloxane, Glycerin, Polyethylene, Niacinamide (Vitmain B3), Dimethicone Crosspolymer, Dimethicone, Stearyl Dimethicone, Propylene Glycol, Butylene Glycol, Panthenol, Palmitoyl Pentapeptide 3, Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E), Lavandula Angustifolia (Lavendar) Extract, Arnica Montana Flower Extract, Camellia Sinensis Leaf Extract, Alanine, Arginine, Betaine, Glycine, Lysine, Proline, Serine, Threonine, Glutamic Acid, Sodium PCA, Sorbitol, PEG 10 Dimethicone/Vinyl Dimethicone Crosspolymer, Cetyl Ricinoleate, Disodium EDTA, Phenoxyethanol, PEG 10 Dimethicone, Benzyl Alcohol, Butylparaben, Ethylparaben, Isobutylparaben, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Red 40, Blue 1, Fragrance

Juice Beauty Antioxidant Serum;

Ingredients
organic juices of vitis vinifera (white grape) juice, citrus aurantium dulcis (orange) juice & aloe barbadensis leaf juice, glycerin, vitis vinifera (grape) seed oil, organic essential fatty acids of oenothera biennis (evening primrose), linum usitatissimum (linseed) seed & borago officinali (borage) seed, organic algae extract, ubiquinone (coenzyme Q10), thioctic acid (alpha-lipoic acid), magnesium ascorbyl phosphate (vitamin C), dipeptide-2, palmitoyl tetrapeptide-3, tocopheryl acetate & tocopherol (vitamin E), retinyl palmitate (vitamin A), sclerotium gum, phenoxyethanol, sodium hydroxide, benzyl alcohol, disodium edta, phospholipids, hyaluronic acid, dimethylaminoethanol (DMAE), potassium sorbate, amyris balsamifera & litsea cubeba (may chang) pure essential oils.

Juice Beauty Soothing Serum;

Ingredients
organic juices of vitis vinifera (white grape) juice, rubus idaeus (red raspberry) juice & aloe barbadensis leaf juice, glycerin, organic cucumis sativus (cucumber) extract, organic botanical extracts of glycyrrhiza glabra (licorice) root, arctostaphylos uva ursi (bearberry) leaf, rubus idaeus (red raspberry) leaf, calendula officinalis flower & matricaria chamomilla flower, organic algae extract, vitis vinifera (grape) seed oil, organic essential fatty acids of oenothera biennis (evening primrose), linum usitatissimum (linseed) seed & borago officinali (borage) seed, organic sesamum indicum (sesame) seed oil, tocopherol & tocopheryl acetate (vitamin E), panthenol (vitamin B5), magnesium ascorbyl phosphate (vitamin C), phospholipids, retinyl palmitate (vitamin A), hesperidin methyl chalcone (vitamin P), potassium sorbate, hyaluronic acid, sclerotium gum, phenoxyethanol, benzyl alcohol, disodium EDTA, sodium hydroxide, limonene, linalool, lavandula angustifolia, tanacetum annuum (blue chamomile) & anthemis nobilis (roman chamomile) pure essential oils.

Juice Beauty Blemish Clearing Serum (Best for oily goils + boys.. Very Happy

)

Ingredients
organic juices of pyrus malus (apple) juice, citrus medica limonum (lemon) juice & aloe barbadensis leaf juice, organic raw cane sugar (glycolic), salix alba (willow bark) extract, glycerin, organic botanical extracts of taraxacum officinale (dandelion) leaf, melissa offficinalis (lemon balm) leaf, salvia officinalis (sage) leaf & camellia sinensis (green tea) leaf, organic algae extract, ubiquinone (coenzyme Q10), magnesium ascorbyl phosphate (vitamin C), tocopheryl acetate (vitamin E), retinyl palmitate (vitamin A), panthenol (vitamin B5), allantoin, phospholipids, sodium hydroxide, sclerotium gum, phenoxyethanol, benzyl alcohol, potassium sorbate, tetrasodium edta, xanthan gum, lavandula angustifolia & commiphora myrrha pure essential oils.

As for the base creams sold at formulating sites, they all have more than enough preservatives as is. Also keep in mind that the vitamin E + Retinol in the recipe act as chelators as well....

To all reading this; I would like to point out that way back in August of 2008 when I was asked to post this (and other) recipe's, I made it perfectly clear it was a hobby for me, and everybody should of course do research in case I overlooked any contraindications etc, etc... And also to get to know the actives and what was compatible to individual skin types/problems/concerns... I have said many times that I am learning along with everybody else, and we all have much to learn.

I am not a cosmetic chemist or formulator, never pretended to be, and I think it's quite unfair, that even after I've proved myself over and over again on this particular subject, these disingenuous questions from the same couple of members, are allowed to continue... (It's clear to me that it's a personal attack, and that is very sad.. Sad

)

free skin care · Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:04 am

It's sad for me also...I just wish "they" would find a new hobby and let the rest of us enjoy our day...it would be different if they had genuine concerns for our health but they just want to start a fight...so like the playground for elementary school children.

Mary

free skin care · Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:28 am

I totally agree. While I do appreciate the additional info that several new members have been diligently posting, I think it's rather sad that the general tone of quite a few of the DIY threads have become hostile and unpleasant.

MaryClaire wrote:

It's sad for me also...I just wish "they" would find a new hobby and let the rest of us enjoy our day...it would be different if they had genuine concerns for our health but they just want to start a fight...so like the playground for elementary school children.

Mary

Automatic Message

If this is your first visit to the EDS Forums please take the time to register. Registration is required for you to post on the forums. Registration will also give you the ability to track messages of interest, send private messages to other users, participate in Gift Certificates draws and enjoy automatic discounts for shopping at our online store. Registration is free and takes just a few seconds to complete.

Click Here to join our community.

If you are already a registered member on the forums, please login to gain full access to the site.