Layering Vitamin C, AHA, hydroquinone, chemical S/S?
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Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:29 pm

Hi everyone! This is my first post and I couldn't be more excited. I've been a lurker for a while and have already learned so much. Okay, all sucking up aside Embarassed

I have a few questions about layering actives I haven't been able to find a straight answer to. I apologize in advance for writing a novel to pose this question...

I guess I'll share a bit about myself first. I'm 26 and my first and most immediate concern is oil control. I am massively oily all over. That being said, I have tough skin that has never been acne-prone. My second concern is hyperpigmentation in my smile lines that is approximately 3-4 shades darker than my skintone. I'm light-skinned, Hispanic and have had very deep smile lines, both wrinkles and pigmentation, since I was young. To give you a sense of how bad it is, if I don't smile in a photo, there will be very visible, dark parentheses running from the sides of my nose to my chin. I think this is fairly common with olive and darker skintones as just about every crease or joint on my body is darker than the rest of my skin (knuckles, elbows, inner arm crease, knees, etc.). I don't mind the unevenness on the rest of my body since I know it's normal, but I've always hated the parenthesis. I've only just realized there's something I can do about it. My final concern is just preventative care.

I understand now that vitamin c, AHAs, retinoids, hydroquinone, and sunscreen can accomplish alot for the skin and am hoping to create a regimen that incorporates all of these things in an effective and efficient way. But I'm having trouble understanding which products should be used first and in combination with one another (or not). I've read the same things about these 5 actives/products (chemical S/S, not physical): that in order to be most effective, they should be applied to "bare" skin. If this is the case, what goes first and how is it possible to layer them?

I specifically mention chemical S/S because of a recent love. Due to my crazy oily skin, I've ventured into the world of Japanese sunscreens. The latest one I've tried is the Biore UV Aqua Rich Watery Essence SPF50 PA++, which contains octinoxate and Uvinul A Plus. My understanding is that chemical S/S needs to be applied first so that it's absorbed into the skin and then able to absorb UV rays correctly. So how would I use this product with the other 4 actives I mentioned?

I'd also like to incorporate essential oils at some point to balance my oil production. This part probably has me confused more than anything else. I realize these are alot of products to use in one regimen, but I'm currently using PTR Glycolic Acid 10% Hydrating Gel and tretinoin cream .05% every third night and am doing okay so far. My Obagi Clear is in the mail.

Enough babbling! Any takers?

free skin care · Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:27 pm

Several ppl have turned their oily skin around using Oil Cleansing Method.

Varying ratios of castor oil/EVOO/grapeseed oil/almond oil and polysorbate 80 can be tailored to your skin needs as your skin becomes less congested and less greasy.

If you do a search or google for it you will find out a lot about it. HTH

free skin care · Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:17 pm

There is a great thread on OCM right here on EDS with or with out added surphacants, personally I prefer without!
Smile

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?tid=7077

free skin care · Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:28 am

Oil control .... firstly stop using cleansers containing known irritants such as sulphate surfactants or alkaline soaps. Secondly you might review your diet and lifestyle because anything that is pro-inflammatory or puts the body into a state of stress can mess with hormone levels or directly impact oil production. If this is ineffective IMO get a check up from your family doctor.

Thirdly you might consider making or buying a KinNiaNag serum to balance oil production
http://www.skincaretalk.com/a/kinnianag-kinetin-b3-nag-antiaging-anti-acne-serum
As you can see from the scientific references in the recipe this is also effective on hyperpigmentation so kills two birds with one stone. Smile

Ditto your tretinoin.

You are probably not finding a straight answer because one does not exist. As you say chemical sunscreens must be applied to bare skin, you can't just wait awhile and apply them. IMO they are not really compatible with a routine that contains lots of actives. Apart from being inert, physical sunscreens are more effective than chemical ones because they don't break down when exposed to UV light. All the actives you mention increase photosensitivity and can cause irritation, please consider introducing them one at a time over a period of months if you don't want to risk worsening your hyperpigmentation. You will likely find you simply don't need that many powerful actives! Why are you considering hydroquinone, have you thoroughly researched the risks and side effects?

free skin care · Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:50 am

You can see two charts I posted on this thread that show the UVA/UVB protection of many sunscreen ingredients. Zinc Oxide rates the highest with Titanium Dioxide coming in second, both physical sun screens.

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=38705&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=225

HTH

batblack wrote:

Hi everyone! This is my first post and I couldn't be more excited. I've been a lurker for a while and have already learned so much. Okay, all sucking up aside Embarassed

I have a few questions about layering actives I haven't been able to find a straight answer to. I apologize in advance for writing a novel to pose this question...

I guess I'll share a bit about myself first. I'm 26 and my first and most immediate concern is oil control. I am massively oily all over. That being said, I have tough skin that has never been acne-prone. My second concern is hyperpigmentation in my smile lines that is approximately 3-4 shades darker than my skintone. I'm light-skinned, Hispanic and have had very deep smile lines, both wrinkles and pigmentation, since I was young. To give you a sense of how bad it is, if I don't smile in a photo, there will be very visible, dark parentheses running from the sides of my nose to my chin. I think this is fairly common with olive and darker skintones as just about every crease or joint on my body is darker than the rest of my skin (knuckles, elbows, inner arm crease, knees, etc.). I don't mind the unevenness on the rest of my body since I know it's normal, but I've always hated the parenthesis. I've only just realized there's something I can do about it. My final concern is just preventative care.

I understand now that vitamin c, AHAs, retinoids, hydroquinone, and sunscreen can accomplish alot for the skin and am hoping to create a regimen that incorporates all of these things in an effective and efficient way. But I'm having trouble understanding which products should be used first and in combination with one another (or not). I've read the same things about these 5 actives/products (chemical S/S, not physical): that in order to be most effective, they should be applied to "bare" skin. If this is the case, what goes first and how is it possible to layer them?

I specifically mention chemical S/S because of a recent love. Due to my crazy oily skin, I've ventured into the world of Japanese sunscreens. The latest one I've tried is the Biore UV Aqua Rich Watery Essence SPF50 PA++, which contains octinoxate and Uvinul A Plus. My understanding is that chemical S/S needs to be applied first so that it's absorbed into the skin and then able to absorb UV rays correctly. So how would I use this product with the other 4 actives I mentioned?

I'd also like to incorporate essential oils at some point to balance my oil production. This part probably has me confused more than anything else. I realize these are alot of products to use in one regimen, but I'm currently using PTR Glycolic Acid 10% Hydrating Gel and tretinoin cream .05% every third night and am doing okay so far. My Obagi Clear is in the mail.

Enough babbling! Any takers?

Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:43 am

Thanks DarkMoon and fawnie. I've read a few threads here and there about OCM but have never tackled the big 37 page thread! I'll definitely have to read through it.

Firefox, thank you for responding about the layering of products. I wasn't sure if there even WAS a hard and fast answer. Confused

I've been looking at Obagi NuDerm and kind of crafting a routine using it as something of a starting point. Here is what I'm planning on doing once I start the Clear:

AM
Neutrogena Extra Gentle Cleanser
Shiseido Pureness Balancing Softener
Peter Thomas Roth Glycolic Acid 10% Hydrating Gel
Obagi Clear
Derma E Tea Tree and E Antiseptic Creme (thinking about adding some niacinamide to this as I've heard it can be added to moisturizer)
Shiseido Ultimate Sun Protection Cream SPF 55 or some other physical sunscreen

PM 1
Shiseido Oil Cleanser
Shiseido Pureness Balancing Softener
Obagi Clear
Tretinoin cream .05

PM 2
Shiseido Oil Cleanser
Shiseido Pureness Balancing Softener
Peter Thomas Roth Glycolic Acid 10% Hydrating Gel
Obagi Clear

Does this all sound okay?

I read about the risks and side effect of hydroquinone, and don't plan on using my Obagi Clear for more than 3 months at a time. As far as sunscreens go, I understand that physical sunscreens are better but I too am having a hard time finding one that suits my oily skin. I've also tried Biore UV Perfect Face Milk SPF50 which contains zinc oxide and octinoxate, but it also contains massive amounts of alcohol. Should I avoid alcohol as someone with very oily skin?

free skin care · Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:41 am

Why are you thinking of cleansing your skin three times a day and applying an exfoliant twice a day? Over-cleansing or over-exfoliating are some of the worst things you can do, they can damage the protective acid mantle/ stratus corneum which can increase sebum production as your skin desperately tries to protect itself. The irritation can also contribute to post-inflammatory hyperpigmentation which is the exact opposite of what you are trying to achieve! That routine has one harsh product after another, I would not be at all surprised if that increases oiliness, causes flaking or sensitivity to sunscreens. Sad

That Shiseido is not a physical sunscreen it has zinc and a chemical agent. When you layer products you need to consider the pH of each and the compatibility of the actives. What is the tea tree for, you said you are not prone to acne?

Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:54 pm

Yikes! I'm sorry, I didn't explain the routine part very well. I would never want to cleanse and apply that many products in one day. The AM routine is for every morning, and I would alternate the two PM routines. So on Day 1, my actives (other than Clear...is hydroquinone considered an "active"?) are AM/glycolic acid, PM/tretinoin, and Day 2 AM/glycolic acid, PM/glycolic acid.

The reason I want to (try and) use AHA twice a day on alternating days is that the directions simply say to work up to twice daily application. I've been using it every morning and my skin is looking great, a bit more even and with no irritation. On the other hand, the tretinoin is making me flaky and tight even though I'm using it every 3rd night. I'm hoping to move to every other night (like in the routine I listed) in another few weeks to give my skin some time to adjust.

The Shiseido cream contains 7.4% octinoxate and 13.9% zinc oxide. I'd kind of assumed that if a S/S had more zinc oxide than any other UV filter, it could still be called a physical S/S. Is that incorrect? I've seen the Shiseido sunscreens referred to as physical sunscreens in a few places. So maybe I'm sucking up the wrong information... Confused

As far as the Derma E cream, it's one of only a handful of products that help control oil for me. It's not significant, but it's enough that I find myself a bit lost when the jar goes missing. I'm not acne prone, but do still have hormonal breakouts or the odd pimple, and this cream nips that in the bud without leaving my skin greasy OR dehydrated. These are the ingredients:

Water, Tea Tree Leaf Oil, Safflower Seed Oil, Stearic Acid, Glyceryl Stearate, Cetyl Alcohol, Tocopheryl Acetate, Glycerin, Allantoin, Panthenol,Sodium Hydroxide, Organic Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Extract, Sweet Almond Oil, Avocado Oil, Sesame Seed Oil, Horsetail Extract, Phenoxyethanol, Ethylhexylglycerin

Perhaps I could make an oil blend that mimics the cream by using safflower seed oil with a few drops of tea tree oil?

free skin care · Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:34 pm

You're missing Vitamin C which is very helpful in getting rid of hyperpigmentation. You might want to try Burnout Clean & Clear sunscreen. It is a good physcial sunscreen that is not too oily.

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