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Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:25 pm  |
I hope any scientists on the boards can weigh in on the science behind this claim. When I have more time I will look into it myself, but for now I thought you all would be interested in this info. I'm not an expert, but based on a quick glance at the Shiseido doc's study ("Negative regulation of dermal fibroblasts by enlarged adipocytes through release of free fatty acids" PMID: 21697886) and the theory might have some merits.
They argue that as subcutaneous fat cells enlarge they released "factors" that reduced collagen and elastin expression and increased the activation matrix metalloproteinase (MMPs) which breakdown collagen. For those of you who have used copper peptides and experienced the "uglies" you understand the damage (maybe not the right word) MMPs can do. I suppose the theory here is that the more enlarged adipocytes a person has the less collagen and elastin will be produced to repair the "damage" of the MMPs.
Like I said, I'm not an expert and would love to hear what others think about this theory as well as the solution that Shiseido claims to have found by way of Rubus suavissimus Shugan Lee extract.
My issue with both the study and the solution is the idea that loss of collage/elastin due to enlarged adipocytes is universal. They are claiming to have discovered the cause of smile lines, but it seems that this theory only applies to those who are obese and have enlarged adipocytes as a result. I don't see how their "solution" would benefit others.
| Quote: |
"Shiseido discovers way to prevent nasolabial folds
Shiseido has made a breakthrough regarding the formation mechanism of nasolabial folds, more commonly known as ‘smile lines’ or ‘laughter lines’.
Their research has revealed that when subcutaneous fat in the cheek increases, adipocytes become enlarged causing negative free fatty acids to be secreted excessively, resulting in dermal damage. Consequently, the damaged dermis loses its resilience and elasticity and its ability to support the cheeks, which in turn causes the folds to become deeper and longer.
Shiseido has also discovered that Rubus suavissimus Shugan Lee extract derived from its leaves is effective for the prevention and improvement of these folds. This extract will be added to new anti-aging skincare and cosmetics products set to be launched in autumn 2012. Patents have been applied for regarding the current research results in Japan and overseas.
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28 year old-light hair-medium skin tone-sensitive skin that's prone to breakouts. |
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Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:11 am |
Yes, there may be some merit to this claim, but it is an area of science (effect of obesity on tissue remodeling and collagen deposition) that is in its infancy. Here's another study, but one that is actually done in humans:
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2012 Apr;97(4):1320-7. Epub 2012 Jan 18.
Adipose tissue remodeling in children: the link between collagen deposition and age-related adipocyte growth.
Tam CS, Tordjman J, Divoux A, Baur LA, Clément K.
Source
Institue of Endocrinology and Diabetes, The Children's Hospital at Westmead, Westmead, New South Wales 2145, Australia. charmaine.tam@pbrc.edu
Abstract
CONTEXT:
Extracellular matrix (ECM) remodeling is essential for adipose tissue growth and expansion in high fat-fed mice, and there is evidence of fibrosis in adipose tissue in human obesity.
OBJECTIVE:
The aim of the study was to explore the role of ECM remodeling in adipose tissue in healthy, growing children. RESEARCH DESIGN, SETTING, AND PARTICIPANTS: Abdominal sc adipose biopsies were obtained from 65 otherwise healthy children [57 boys; age, 5.3 ± 3.8 yr (mean ± sd)] having elective surgery (cross-sectional study). Twenty percent of the participants were classified as overweight/obese based on body mass index (BMI) z score.
MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES:
We examined collagen (total and pericellular), HAM56+ macrophages, CD206+ M2 phenotype macrophages, and CD3+ T cells measured by immunohistochemistry and ECM gene expression markers.
RESULTS:
Overweight children had significantly less total collagen compared to normal weight children (median, 3.4 vs. 9.1%; P = 0.001). However, collagen areas were not positive for COL6 and showed little evidence of collagen surrounding adipocytes. Fat cell size was negatively correlated with the percentage of total (r = -0.398; P = 0.003) and pericellular collagen (r = -0.462; P < 0.001) but positively correlated with HAM56+ macrophages (r = 0.541; P < 0.001). The percentage of total collagen was inversely associated with BMI z score (r = -0.345; P = 0.01) and age (r = -0.348; P = 0.005), with older (>11 yr old) children in the top BMI z tertile having less collagen (3.8%) than younger (2-5 yr old) children in the bottom BMI z tertile (12.6%). Adipose tissue in overweight children showed little evidence of crown-like structures or T cells.
CONCLUSION:
In healthy, growing children, increased collagen in adipose tissue is associated with decreased fat cell size and BMI z score and increased M2+ phenotype macrophages, suggesting dynamic interaction between ECM remodeling and immune cells even at an early age. |
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34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:18 am |
| I sure hope this is not an indirect way of bringing up adipose tissue stem cells...that horse has been beaten to death already. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:22 am |
| No, it has nothing to do with adipose tissue stem cells...at least as far as I know. |
_________________
34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:21 pm |
| cm5597 wrote: |
| No, it has nothing to do with adipose tissue stem cells...at least as far as I know. |
There was some discussion behind the scenes that there might be. Hopefully that is not the case. |
_________________
No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:04 am |
| bethany wrote: |
| cm5597 wrote: |
| No, it has nothing to do with adipose tissue stem cells...at least as far as I know. |
There was some discussion behind the scenes that there might be. Hopefully that is not the case. |
I'm confused by this statement and am not sure what that means nor am I aware of what is being implied here??? At least speaking for myself, I don't have any not good intent here. Also, adipose tissue stem cells are totally different from adipocytes. The article I cited has absolutely nothing to do with adipose stem cells and is concerned only with adipocytes. I hope that clarifies things better. |
_________________
34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:06 am |
| MichelleRme wrote: |
I hope any scientists on the boards can weigh in on the science behind this claim. When I have more time I will look into it myself, but for now I thought you all would be interested in this info. I'm not an expert, but based on a quick glance at the Shiseido doc's study ("Negative regulation of dermal fibroblasts by enlarged adipocytes through release of free fatty acids" PMID: 21697886) and the theory might have some merits.
They argue that as subcutaneous fat cells enlarge they released "factors" that reduced collagen and elastin expression and increased the activation matrix metalloproteinase (MMPs) which breakdown collagen. For those of you who have used copper peptides and experienced the "uglies" you understand the damage (maybe not the right word) MMPs can do. I suppose the theory here is that the more enlarged adipocytes a person has the less collagen and elastin will be produced to repair the "damage" of the MMPs.
Like I said, I'm not an expert and would love to hear what others think about this theory as well as the solution that Shiseido claims to have found by way of Rubus suavissimus Shugan Lee extract.
My issue with both the study and the solution is the idea that loss of collage/elastin due to enlarged adipocytes is universal. They are claiming to have discovered the cause of smile lines, but it seems that this theory only applies to those who are obese and have enlarged adipocytes as a result. I don't see how their "solution" would benefit others.
| Quote: |
"Shiseido discovers way to prevent nasolabial folds
Shiseido has made a breakthrough regarding the formation mechanism of nasolabial folds, more commonly known as ‘smile lines’ or ‘laughter lines’.
Their research has revealed that when subcutaneous fat in the cheek increases, adipocytes become enlarged causing negative free fatty acids to be secreted excessively, resulting in dermal damage. Consequently, the damaged dermis loses its resilience and elasticity and its ability to support the cheeks, which in turn causes the folds to become deeper and longer.
Shiseido has also discovered that Rubus suavissimus Shugan Lee extract derived from its leaves is effective for the prevention and improvement of these folds. This extract will be added to new anti-aging skincare and cosmetics products set to be launched in autumn 2012. Patents have been applied for regarding the current research results in Japan and overseas.
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Btw, I doubt this product "erases" or "prevents" NL folds. That would be pretty outrageous if it did. Maybe a small effect is possible....just speculating... |
_________________
34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:24 am |
| cm5597 wrote: |
| bethany wrote: |
| cm5597 wrote: |
| No, it has nothing to do with adipose tissue stem cells...at least as far as I know. |
There was some discussion behind the scenes that there might be. Hopefully that is not the case. |
I'm confused by this statement and am not sure what that means nor am I aware of what is being implied here??? At least speaking for myself, I don't have any not good intent here. Also, adipose tissue stem cells are totally different from adipocytes. The article I cited has absolutely nothing to do with adipose stem cells and is concerned only with adipocytes. I hope that clarifies things better. |
Sorry...the statement had nothing to do with you or what you posted at all. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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