Gearing up for an attack on my Keratosis Pilaris
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Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:36 pm

Hello ladies,

I've been reading through all the archives here; everything I can find on KP. I don't have it very bad on my upper arms (my husband's is bad there), but it's very bothersome on my thighs (mostly the back) and seems to be spreading a little to my upper calves.

It makes swimsuit season so embarrassing, especially when those plugs get inflamed and look like festering pimples that I can't see and don't always know are there. Red dots are one thing, but big poppable-looking black-heady pimple like pustules are another.

I was officially diagnosed a long time ago, and the dermatologist gave me some Am-Lactin which didn't do much at all, though I used it religiously.

The bumps I get on the backs of my legs always have a waxy plug that can be squeezed out, and sometimes look like big, fat blackheads - I guess where the sebum build up gets dirty on top? My husband's upper arms are really red and almost scaly with bumps, but I don't have that same redness. Just the bumps everywhere... well the pores can look like red dots when they aren't inflamed.

Anyway, I'm tired of hiding under long coverups and wanted to see if there was anything new I could try to get rid of this.

My insurance doesn't cover anything at the dermatologists or derm-type perscriptions (the joys of self employment health coverage), so my remedies will be made up of OTC and DIY.

What I'm trying first is the Wonderbar -- I read the big 28 page thread here and another one somewhere else. I'm nervous and can't quite grasp how such a tiny bar of soap could cost so much, but figure if I experience negative effects, at least it's on the back of my legs and not my face.

I have my Amazon cart loaded up with some other things -- I'm not sure what kind of moisturizer to try with the Wonderbar (I've emailed the company to ask) but am getting a bottle of pure Emu Oil.

It sounds like I need to stop using regular soap on that area, so I'm getting some Cetaphil bars, which I tried before and liked.

I've started taking Udo's oil again which seems to help clear up my skin and help me feel overall better.

Foxe, I think, suggested Paula's Choice Weightless Body Treatment so I'm considering that. Wish it were available at Amazon as I have some gift cards to use up there.

I was wondering if anyone had tried and had any success with KP Elements? I'd link, but I'm new so it won't let me. It's got the lactic acid rather than the salicylic acid Foxe recommended and has decent reviews on Amazon, but don't know if I should use a lactic with a salicylic product? I'm new at this...

I noticed Amazon carries Salicylic acid gel in a 20% that looks like it is used for face peels. I wondered if it would be something to try on my thighs, but think the small bottle wouldn't go very far on the large area I need to treat.

I'm also swearing off sugar and reducing gluten as I generally feel better and look better off of those things.

I suppose I'm confused about how I ought to proceed -- try each thing one at a time? Together? Anything important I'm missing? Anything else you'd suggest I try?

Thank you!

Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:50 pm

Oh, I wanted to add that when I've tried loofahs or those scrubby mesh things that it makes the backs of my legs much, much worse. Really seems to irritate any inflamed areas, so I'm not sure how to best exfoliate?

free skin care · Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:00 pm

I have this to a small degree on the back of my arms and wonder if anyone has had any success getting rid of it through dry brushing.

free skin care · Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:10 am

IMO with most skin conditions it is addressing from many angles simultaneously that is most effective, not one single product or technique.

Have you tried diet modification? Particularly amending the balance of fatty acids in your diet - plenty of long chain omega-3s from oily fish, other healthy fats from olive oil, avocados, walnuts, pumpkin seeds, omega-enriched eggs and so on. Limiting saturated animal fats, omega-6s except GLA. Be aware that many of the omega-6s are inflammatory and counteract the positive effects of DHA, EPA and GLA. Udo's Choice is not the best source of essential fatty acids because it's the balance of long chain O-3s to 0-6s in the Western diet (= food) that is wrong. Unfortunately the conversion rate of short chain omega-3s in seed oils to the useable long chain format is only ~10% for most of us. This means the amounts of seed oils required to correct a chronic EFA deficiency can be prohibitive. It is therefore better to supplement DHA and EPA themselves using concentrated fish body oils or a marine algae extract (for veggies/ vegans), ideally 2-3g per day.

You do not need to purchase expensive AHA/ BHA products, you can purchase lactic acid 88% and concentrated salicylic acid and easily make up your own peels and exfoliating lotions. Do be aware the plugs are keratin (protein) and not simply sebum (as in blackheads) so keratolytics such as urea can also be helpful. Be careful with using any other known irritants or drying ingredients alongside acids or urea or intensive exfoliating, particularly check for sulphate surfactants in your shower gel or body scrubs. You don't want the skin thickening the stratus corneum in order to protect itself or you will be back where you started! Sad

That may be what happened when you used an exfoliating puff. Personally I find body brushing far too irritating, but I do have sensitive skin.

Since KP worsens in dry or cold weather, my suggestion for moisturising would be to use products that replace the lipids found naturally in the skin barrier AND are non-comedogenic (won't block pores). These lipids include long chain saturated fatty acids (stearic and palmitic), cholesterol and ceramides. Fatty acids known to clog pores when applied topically tend to be short chain and/ or unsaturated. Recent research has suggested oleic acid (from olive and other oils) "causes abnormal follicular keratinisation" so you might be wise to avoid this. http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v124/n5/full/5602810a.html
CeraVe cream supplies many of the required lipids (cholesterol, long chain saturates, ceramides), and can be 'doctored' with lactic acid. Alternatively you might find a pharmacy product containing a higher percentage of urea (keratolytic/ humectants) alongside lanolin (for cholesterol) - I have Flexitol Naturals heel balm which works equally well elsewhere on the body! Also *some* of the Weleda baby calendula range contain a useful percentage of lanolin. Amazon likely stocks Weleda, CeraVe and various foot balms.

Before people start leaping on me about plant oils, please note that I have not said they are totally ineffective, my wording is comparative. If there are any new studies to the contrary I would appreciate a link. Smile

Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:28 pm

Quote:

Have you tried diet modification? Particularly amending the balance of fatty acids in your diet - plenty of long chain omega-3s from oily fish, other healthy fats from olive oil, avocados, walnuts, pumpkin seeds, omega-enriched eggs and so on.

Thank you so much for your response. Yes, I'm doing this - massively working over my diet, it's not horrible, but needs some healthy tweaks. I really dislike fish so a supplement of some sort is necessary for me. I used to take just Flax oil, but my chiropractor recommended Udo's for the other essential oil... strains. Ha, clearly not a scholar in this area. I'm sad to hear Udo's isn't a good choice, it's so expensive and I already have a big bottle.

Anyway, is there another supplement or solution you'd recommend? Udo does have a new DHA blend but I haven't ever tried it.

Quote:

you can purchase lactic acid 88% and concentrated salicylic acid and easily make up your own peels and exfoliating lotions

Fantastic! Where would I purchase these? And can the two acids be mixed together or should I make separate lotions for each? Would Urea be mixed into the same lotions or separate? And where would I purchase Urea? Please don't tell me to strain my pee Surprised

)

Quote:

particularly check for sulphate surfactants in your shower gel or body scrubs.

All I use is Dove soap (beauty bar) at the moment, Cetaphil bars are on their way. Should I be worried about shampoo / conditioner running down as I rinse?

GOOD to know on the olive oil. I'd stopped using lotions on the backs of my legs as it only seemed to make the plugs worse. I tried olive oil a few times, having such good results with it on my face.

Quote:

CeraVe cream supplies many of the required lipids (cholesterol, long chain saturates, ceramides), and can be 'doctored' with lactic acid. Alternatively you might find a pharmacy product containing a higher percentage of urea (keratolytic/ humectants) alongside lanolin (for cholesterol) - I have Flexitol Naturals heel balm which works equally well elsewhere on the body! Also *some* of the Weleda baby calendula range contain a useful percentage of lanolin. Amazon likely stocks Weleda, CeraVe and various foot balms.

Okay, I will look these up - let me know what to mix them with and how, if you wouldn't mind.

Thank you!

free skin care · Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:10 pm

Firefox7275 wrote:

IMO with most skin conditions it is addressing from many angles simultaneously that is most effective, not one single product or technique.

Have you tried diet modification? Particularly amending the balance of fatty acids in your diet - plenty of long chain omega-3s from oily fish ...

Why do you insist that omega-3 fatty acids are helpful for KP? Why would any dietary changes help? I have posted this on another thread, but it is worth mentioning here:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1070651-overview

Under the Treatment tab (subcategory Diet) it clearly states:

Keratosis pilaris has no dietary associations.

I notice you always recommend dietary changes for any skin problem, and seem to especially promote Omega-3 supplements in your posts. However, I can find nothing on PubMed or elsewhere to back up your recommendations. Do you have any links to studies that support your advice, or is this just your personal opinion?

Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:30 pm

I'm not Firefox, and maybe results are different for everyone, but I've seen definite improvements in my KP when take a protein shake with Udo's in it. Not just in my KP areas but my skin all over looks better.

This is such an annoying and embarrassing problem, if eating better appears to help it, I'm totally doing it. Plus, honestly, I could stand to eat better anyway.

free skin care · Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:37 pm

You could use the Udo's Oil drizzled onto salads or vegetables? But do not cook with it, that oxidises the delicate fatty acids. Double or triple concentrated fish body oil capsules are inexpensive, I even use eBay but obviously pick your supplier carefully. The capsules must be in a sealed brown bottle with an expiry date, never in a plastic zip lock bag. Look at the EPA and DHA content which is always marked, you want to be taking up to 3g which for my product is six large 1g capsules. You don't want to have to swallow more than that each day! Laughing

If you are fixing up the rest of your diet, you really do not need any other EFA supplements. Any blend will likely contain omega-6 again, which you don't want as I explained. It might contain 'omega-9' (jargon) which are not essential fats just healthy ones. Olive oil is rich in them which you are hopefully cooking with anyway.

You can make a lac-sal peel but I am not the expert on recipes because I don't use salicylic, only lactic (sensitive skin). Suppliers and recipes here
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=11902
http://www.skincaretalk.com/t/30363/where-to-buy-your-ingredients-from
I just test ran an advanced search on SCT - search term "lactic salicylic" and clicked on 'titles only'. Loads of threads so you will definitely find a recipe there if not here.
Mixing lactic acid with CeraVe Cream. Note that not all lotions work, the pH change may completely mess up the formulation and make it like water so best to copy what worked for someone else! http://www.skincaretalk.com/t/9849/sheep-look-lactic-lotion

Ha ha, no pee required. Laughing

The urea was mentioned as an alternative to lactic acid if you wanted to abandon that, but you don't need both as they do much the same job (keratolytic, humectant). I have never found a source of pure urea, but you can get up to 40% urea creams or ointments in pharmacies or on prescription. You wouldn't peel with urea, it's usually used within a moisturiser or ointment. *Some* bodycare products with decent percentages of urea are greasy because they are targeted for eczema. Whereas a foot balm is more likely to have a higher percentage and dry texture: depends on taste/ schedule.

Dove and Cetaphil bars ... what are the pHs and do they contain traditional soap? You would ideally want something close to skin at ~5.5 AND does not leave your skin feeling dry or tight at all AND does not leave any oil or emollient coating because this will block the effects of later products. Often emollients or oils are added to disguise the fact that the cleansing agent is stripping or drying the skin.

Will shampoo residues cause a problem ... excellent question! Maybe: sulphates are known irritants down to 1-2% and there is ~20% in shampoo. I have mild atopic eczema which is triggered by shampoo bubbles running down my arm. If you are washing your hair first AND have a layer of a thick body cream on from the day before, the chances are that will protect your skin. Particularly if the body product contains waxes (lanolin, beeswax etc.) or long chain saturated fatty acids (shea butter, red palm oil, etc) not just the water-soluble chemical emollients found in most body lotions.

Eeeep another essay I type too fast! Embarassed

free skin care · Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:51 pm

Lacy53 wrote:

Firefox7275 wrote:

IMO with most skin conditions it is addressing from many angles simultaneously that is most effective, not one single product or technique.

Have you tried diet modification? Particularly amending the balance of fatty acids in your diet - plenty of long chain omega-3s from oily fish ...

Why do you insist that omega-3 fatty acids are helpful for KP? Why would any dietary changes help? I have posted this on another thread, but it is worth mentioning here:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1070651-overview

Under the Treatment tab (subcategory Diet) it clearly states:

Keratosis pilaris has no dietary associations.

I notice you always recommend dietary changes for any skin problem, and seem to especially promote Omega-3 supplements in your posts. However, I can find nothing on PubMed or elsewhere to back up your recommendations. Do you have any links to studies that support your advice, or is this just your personal opinion?

However, I've never met anyone with a crappy diet and pretty skin. And more often than not, a person with really bad skin has a really bad diet. (not always... perhaps their diet just contains something they don't recognize as an allergy) High sugars, rancid fats, low nutrient packed food. Now, is this the absolute cause? Perhaps not. I imagine the equation has multiple variables. But no reason not to address them one at a time.

If a person has an allergy, they will easily have skin problems, among other. So that's def. diet related. For example, I've seen people with a diary allergy have HUGE rashes until they figure out it's the dairy.

I've personally had a systemic reaction to Oil Of oregano. The itching and blotching that lasted for several hours indicates to me that things you ingest impact the visual on your skin.

In my experience, people on low fat diets have the driest, unhealthiest looking skin I've seen. Usually sags, and looks 'gator like.

Some supplements are known to impact hormones. Hormones are known to impact the appearance of skin.

In the end, if one has the $$. I'd get a blood test to check for deficiencies. Or I'd take something that seemingly levels out deficiencies and see what happens. As I do suspect deficiencies will impact the appearance of skin. And more importantly your over all health. And I do think, often, our skin is telling a visual story about what's going inside.

I don't think KP is a "normal" state of skin. It's just that no one has figured out what the exact trigger is. And well, if a carrot is the solution, I'm afraid NO ONE is going to spend at least 30k to run a study to prove that anything you can grow in your back yard will help. Where's the benefit. Short of philanthropy.

I'll have to see if DH will let me photograph his shoulder upper back to show what his skin looks like today. Markedly improved. Smooth to the touch...

free skin care · Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:58 pm

This is an image pulled from the web.. This is what I'd say his skin looked like before. I never thought to take pics... as we never guessed he'd be rid of it...

http://dermimages.med.jhmi.edu/images/Keratosis_pilaris_1_030324.jpg

free skin care · Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:45 am

Navyblue, I would stick with the Paula's Choice on KP. If you read her article on KP, theres some recommendations. Her 2%BHA unclogs EVERYTHING. THIS is the best for any skin condition.

Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:26 pm

Thank you everyone! Keep the replies coming, please!

I've ordered:

- WonderBar (it was already on order, might as well see if it helps

- Paula's Choice (mixing my own lotions feels a bit intimidating)

- Pure Emu oil

- Cetaphil bars (all I've found pH wise is that it is 'neutral' which I believe puts it on a rather wide spectrum? But they are non-soap)

In my Amazon cart but I haven't ordered yet:

- CeraVe cream (is this worth getting if I don't dare mix it with lactic acid yet?)

- Flexitol Heel balm with 25% urea (recommended via private message)

- Fish Oil capsules w/ 1400mg per capsule, they sound large, but I've managed large Flax oil capsules before.

What say ye?

free skin care · Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:34 pm

Another dietary consideration is a vitamin A (retinol) deficiency (found in egg yolks, grass fed butter and liver). Not everyone efficiently converts beta carotene to retinol- for some people it's genetic.
I start to develop plugged follicles on my upper arms and part of my legs when my D3 to vit. A ratio gets off (I take higher dose D3 for an autoimmune condition and it can deplete vit. A), so I take some fish liver derived A and within a few weeks, my arms clear up.
Retinol lotion helps to speed up the process, but I don't need it to maintain my skin as long as I get retinol in my diet.

free skin care · Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:43 pm

hzzyjane wrote:

Another dietary consideration is a vitamin A (retinol) deficiency (found in egg yolks, grass fed butter and liver). Not everyone efficiently converts beta carotene to retinol- for some people it's genetic.
I start to develop plugged follicles on my upper arms and part of my legs when my D3 to vit. A ratio gets off (I take higher dose D3 for an autoimmune condition and it can deplete vit. A), so I take some fish liver derived A and within a few weeks, my arms clear up.
Retinol lotion helps to speed up the process, but I don't need it to maintain my skin as long as I get retinol in my diet.

This is interesting. Do you take a blood test to determine the Vit A needs?

free skin care · Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:53 pm

ClaudiaFE wrote:

hzzyjane wrote:

Another dietary consideration is a vitamin A (retinol) deficiency (found in egg yolks, grass fed butter and liver). Not everyone efficiently converts beta carotene to retinol- for some people it's genetic.
I start to develop plugged follicles on my upper arms and part of my legs when my D3 to vit. A ratio gets off (I take higher dose D3 for an autoimmune condition and it can deplete vit. A), so I take some fish liver derived A and within a few weeks, my arms clear up.
Retinol lotion helps to speed up the process, but I don't need it to maintain my skin as long as I get retinol in my diet.

This is interesting. Do you take a blood test to determine the Vit A needs?

You can do that. Blood tests are def. needed for D3 levels to do higher dose D3 therapy (more than 6000 IU's/day) and D3 becomes toxic at lower levels if there is a retinol deficiency. Conversely, when someone has adequate D3 levels, they can take more A without danger of toxicity. You always find them together in nature.
I just read a great article about this synergy- I wish I could remember where I read it! If I find it, I'll post it.

free skin care · Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:02 pm

OK, I found something on A/D. This article contains a section on Vit. A/retinol and how the toxicity threshold goes way up when there is adequate Vit. D3 present:
http://chriskresser.com/beyond-paleo-5

Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:42 am

I have mild KP on my upper arms, and on a lark, started using finacea on them (had an rx for acne). it's worked well, and helped fade the dark spots I had on my arms from trying to "scratch" the plugs out. Finacea is expensive, but I just ordered something similar from australia that's much cheaper - hope it's as effective.

Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:38 pm

Oh thanks - I take 1500 IUs of Vitamin D each day through the winter, do you think that's enough to get the Vitamin A ratio off?

Is there a non-RX retinol lotion you'd recommend?

Sorry for the delay in responding, went out of town.

-J

hzzyjane wrote:

Another dietary consideration is a vitamin A (retinol) deficiency (found in egg yolks, grass fed butter and liver). Not everyone efficiently converts beta carotene to retinol- for some people it's genetic.
I start to develop plugged follicles on my upper arms and part of my legs when my D3 to vit. A ratio gets off (I take higher dose D3 for an autoimmune condition and it can deplete vit. A), so I take some fish liver derived A and within a few weeks, my arms clear up.
Retinol lotion helps to speed up the process, but I don't need it to maintain my skin as long as I get retinol in my diet.

Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:41 pm

Oh, read your other replies, 1500 IUs probably isn't enough to throw anything out of whack, then.

Would still be interested in anyone's favorite retinol cream.

---

I've been using the WonderBar on my KP areas for 4 days so far. No change in the red dots or plugs that I can see, though the skin feels softer.

Paula's choice arrived today - wondering if I ought to use them separately after a Wonderbar trial or together. I wrote the Wonderbar company (Tiffany) without reply over a week ago Sad

Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:00 pm

Looks like everyone has moved on Wink

but I'll update just in case anyone else searches on this topic.

Along w/ diet changes (and I did switch to fish oil instead of Udo's), I abandoned the Wonderbar, which didn't seem to do much. I started using the Paula's Choice KP stuff and WOW, what a difference. In just 3 days I can tell the KP is improving, there already aren't any plugs to dig at and pop. The ones that were there have kind of scabbed over almost, and there isn't anything to squeeze, they are healing. The red dots have visibly improved in appearance as well.

Everything is a bit dry, I haven't been applying any other moisturizer, just this morning and night.

So encouraging. Also have a idea cream on the way. Would still like to know if there is an OTC retire.op cram anyone would recommend and suggestions for its use.

Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:02 pm

Oops, silly auto correct on this kindle fire. That should have said "urea" cream on the way, not idea, and retinol cream. Thank you!

free skin care · Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:36 am

Here are a few things you might not have tried that helped me a lot:

1. Goat's milk soap -- get it now
2. Borage oil--internally and externally
3. Seabuckthorn oil or soap with seabuckthorn oil
4. Buy a shower head filter for your shower--I haven't done this, but it should benefit you hair AND skin

I think I had my best results when I took a product from GNC called multi-oil supplement that combined fish oil, borage oil, evening primrose oil, and flaxseed oil, but it sounds like the stuff you've already bought should work fine.

Definitely try the goat's milk soap!

Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:24 am

BBD wrote:

Here are a few things you might not have tried that helped me a lot:

1. Goat's milk soap -- get it now
2. Borage oil--internally and externally
3. Seabuckthorn oil or soap with seabuckthorn oil
4. Buy a shower head filter for your shower--I haven't done this, but it should benefit you hair AND skin

I think I had my best results when I took a product from GNC called multi-oil supplement that combined fish oil, borage oil, evening primrose oil, and flaxseed oil, but it sounds like the stuff you've already bought should work fine.

Definitely try the goat's milk soap!

Thank you! I will find some Wink

free skin care · Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:33 pm

I get a little bit of KP on the backs of my calves at the top - and I've always attributed this to a lack of exfoliation which I dont really get a lot of time to do Wink

it can also be a symptom of thyroid issues - which I do suffer from - my thyroid gets whacky as a result of damage from medication (that a doctor gave me).

The best method for me is to mix a pea-sized amount of Retin-a with about the equivalent of a natural body cream and I rub that into the affected area - I do this about twice a week and it keeps it under control.

This works for me, whether it works for anyone else only experimentation will tell Wink

HTH

Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:26 pm

Hi,

I have suffered from KP for a long time, not sure what it was until internet surfing again last year... started appearing when I was 10, and was always insecure... am now 33... more secure with myself, but wish I had smooth skin.

While lotions, special soaps and things haven't worked for me,

Pure ORGANIC Lanolin ( applied while in the shower, in a thick coat) worked wonders!!! Immediately smoothed out my skin- absorbed immediately.

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