Obagi Clear on top of Retinol Serum? & Exfoderm alternat
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Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:58 am

I plan to use Clear + Retinol Serum alternately with my Clear + Blender + Tretinoin every night. Do you think it's okay or should I just stick to Blender+Tretinoin? Would I get the same benefits? (btw, I don't use the Vit C serum because it iritates my skin.)

Also I thought of trying a glycolic cream in the morning (instead of Exfoderm).

I'm just trying some alternatives if they would work, since Obagi products aren't the cheapest.

So I'd really like to know first if these are okay to use together. If they wouldn't react against each other before I buy.

Btw, been using Obagi for almost 2 years now. (I might also try the ClearFX and BlenderFX after I finish my bottle of Clear and Blender)

Any advice? TIA!

Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:42 pm

Hi! I'm new here, and I've been meaning to get an answer to the same question that you're asking: substituting the exfoderm with AHA 12% soufflé. Were you able to find out?
Thanks.

free skin care · Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:22 am

I have been using Nu Derm intermittently for the past couple of years (you are not supposed to use hydroquinone more than four or five months consecutively). When I first started with Obagi, I felt the Exfoderm was causing too much irritation and wrote to the company. They said that Exfoderm is only responsible for maybe 10% of the rejuvenation and I could omit that step. So when I ran out of Exfoderm I used other glycolic acid creams with similar results.

I tried the Alpha Hydrox brand 10% glycolic cream, Peter Thomas Roth Peel Pads, and as Paula's Choice - they are all good and less irritating then Exfoderm but I still peeled like crazy (in a good way getting all the dead skin off).

Also, I am at the tail end of a three month Obagi round and ran out of Clear. So instead of Clear I am using Palmers Eventone, which is 2% hydroquinone and AHA. My skin looks really good but the pigmentation is definitely not getting lighter due to the lack of Clear. However, I think the Palmers is giving an overall brightness to the skin - and it was only $5! I wouldn't say Palmers is a substitute for Clear in the beginning but at the end of an Obagi round, it helps transition the skin while still using a mild amount of hydroquinone and AHAs.

Regarding whether the retinol serum would give the same benefits as tretinoin, my opinion is not at all as it is much weaker. Also, Blender works synergistically with tretinoin to drive it deeper into the skin.

Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:06 am

Hi Denisiel, thank you for taking your time responding to our inquiries.
I started my obagi 11 days ago without exfoderm. When I read somewhere that it can be substituted with AHA 12%, I bought one. And started it last night.
Can I use the 2% HQ on maintenance? Will it give me the same effect?
I have some more questions if you don't mind:
1. How many minutes on each product before applying the next one?
2. Can I dye my hair while on it?
3. Can I use the AHA in the evening instead of morning? Morning's so hectic for me, need to leave for work by 6 am.
4. Is it normal that my skin flakes during the day but calms down in the evening after washing and scrubbing them with a sort if loofah very lightly?

Thanks again,

free skin care · Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:58 am

Momoffive wrote:

I started my obagi 11 days ago without exfoderm. When I read somewhere that it can be substituted with AHA 12%, I bought one. And started it last night.

Hi Momoffive,

Can I use the 2% HQ on maintenance? Will it give me the same effect?

- Recently, Dr. Obagi revised his recommendation about continuous hydroquinone (HQ) usage. He now believes nonstop usage of HQ can lead to even greater pigmentation problems. Therefore you are supposed to use both HQ and tretinoin in short courses of a few months each (I've read anywhere from three to six months) then take a break for a few months and restart.

- I now do not use any HQ on maintenance. I use other lightners/pigment preventers that work OK. If you don't have pigmentation problems then no need to use HQ. I do continue to use tretinoin because it took me over a year to acclimate my skin to tolerate it and I don't think it is possible for me to successfully use it in pulse doses (although I do use just a pea size during maintenance but a full gram during the Obagi Nu Derm regime)

I have some more questions if you don't mind:
1. How many minutes on each product before applying the next one?

- I wait 15 minutes after applying Clear in the AM; Exfoderm wait until absorbed (just a few minutes); Clear in the PM wait 30 minutes so skin is completely dry and then apply Blender and tretinoin mix. I think it is very important that the HQ is allowed enough time to be fully absorbed before layering on another product.

2. Can I dye my hair while on it?

- I don't see why not but I don't dye my hair. One thought - using a large amount of tretinoin may make your hairline more sensitive to dye.

3. Can I use the AHA in the evening instead of morning? Morning's so hectic for me, need to leave for work by 6 am.

- I have read of people doing that but I don't agree with it. I believe that tretinoin is a fragile chemical bond and that AHA's can break the bond and render it inactive. I suppose if you applied it far enough in advance to be fully absorbed then it would not interact with the tretinoin. But as tretinoin is the major driver for cellular renewal, I would not take my chances.

- The AHA does not need a long wait period after Clear in the AM. And I have also used an AHA before Clear such as the Peter Thomas Roth Peel Pads (30 seconds) and found the effect is the same as Exfoderm in that it loosens up the dead skin cells and helps the flakies peel off.

4. Is it normal that my skin flakes during the day but calms down in the evening after washing and scrubbing them with a sort if loofah very lightly?

- Yes. I flaked then peeled in massive sheets for nearly six months. But I followed the aggressive regime of using one gram tretinoin. Incredible results though.

- You can help the peeling by GENTLY using a microfiber cloth. Be careful not to peel any skin not ready to detach as this can leave scars and post inflammatory hyperpigmentation marks. Also if the peeling gets really bad you dab some skim milk on for 10 minutes and rinse off as the lactic acid will help the flakes roll off. GENTLY rolling the wet skin off in the shower is also useful.

Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:33 am

denisiel wrote:

Momoffive wrote:

I started my obagi 11 days ago without exfoderm. When I read somewhere that it can be substituted with AHA 12%, I bought one. And started it last night.

Hi Momoffive,

Can I use the 2% HQ on maintenance? Will it give me the same effect?

- Recently, Dr. Obagi revised his recommendation about continuous hydroquinone (HQ) usage. He now believes nonstop usage of HQ can lead to even greater pigmentation problems. Therefore you are supposed to use both HQ and tretinoin in short courses of a few months each (I've read anywhere from three to six months) then take a break for a few months and restart.

- I now do not use any HQ on maintenance. I use other lightners/pigment preventers that work OK. If you don't have pigmentation problems then no need to use HQ. I do continue to use tretinoin because it took me over a year to acclimate my skin to tolerate it and I don't think it is possible for me to successfully use it in pulse doses (although I do use just a pea size during maintenance but a full gram during the Obagi Nu Derm regime)

I have some more questions if you don't mind:
1. How many minutes on each product before applying the next one?

- I wait 15 minutes after applying Clear in the AM; Exfoderm wait until absorbed (just a few minutes); Clear in the PM wait 30 minutes so skin is completely dry and then apply Blender and tretinoin mix. I think it is very important that the HQ is allowed enough time to be fully absorbed before layering on another product.

2. Can I dye my hair while on it?

- I don't see why not but I don't dye my hair. One thought - using a large amount of tretinoin may make your hairline more sensitive to dye.

3. Can I use the AHA in the evening instead of morning? Morning's so hectic for me, need to leave for work by 6 am.

- I have read of people doing that but I don't agree with it. I believe that tretinoin is a fragile chemical bond and that AHA's can break the bond and render it inactive. I suppose if you applied it far enough in advance to be fully absorbed then it would not interact with the tretinoin. But as tretinoin is the major driver for cellular renewal, I would not take my chances.

- The AHA does not need a long wait period after Clear in the AM. And I have also used an AHA before Clear such as the Peter Thomas Roth Peel Pads (30 seconds) and found the effect is the same as Exfoderm in that it loosens up the dead skin cells and helps the flakies peel off.

4. Is it normal that my skin flakes during the day but calms down in the evening after washing and scrubbing them with a sort if loofah very lightly?

- Yes. I flaked then peeled in massive sheets for nearly six months. But I followed the aggressive regime of using one gram tretinoin. Incredible results though.

- You can help the peeling by GENTLY using a microfiber cloth. Be careful not to peel any skin not ready to detach as this can leave scars and post inflammatory hyperpigmentation marks. Also if the peeling gets really bad you dab some skim milk on for 10 minutes and rinse off as the lactic acid will help the flakes roll off. GENTLY rolling the wet skin off in the shower is also useful.

Hi Denisiel, your knowledge is very enlightening.
The first time I used the AHA soufflé by Alpha Hydrox last night, I waited more than half an hour before applying 1 gram (0.1%) tret mixed with half a gram of blender. I didn't sting but I noticed my face became oily all of a sudden. I don't know now if it affected my result ( I hope not). And this morning, I made another blunder of applying the AHA prior to the Clear. ( and again I hope it doesn't affect the outcome).
So you mean to say, after completing the 18-week-program, I cannot go on maintenance with using the clear just once or maximum if twice a week? I'm afraid that the brown spot will resurface if I don't include the clear with my maintenance.
Is it okay to use the tret with blender once or twice a week for maintenance too?
Do you use the Peter Roth pads as your toner and exfoliant as one?
And one more concern, how come my peeling is not really what I call peeling, it's more of flaking. I wanted to peel in sheets, but so far they're only flakies, it's more like dandruff ( I'm sorry for the gross comparison).

Thanks again.

free skin care · Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:36 am

Momoffive wrote:

The first time I used the AHA soufflé by Alpha Hydrox last night, I waited more than half an hour before applying 1 gram (0.1%) tret mixed with half a gram of blender. I didn't sting but I noticed my face became oily all of a sudden. I don't know now if it affected my result ( I hope not). And this morning, I made another blunder of applying the AHA prior to the Clear. ( and again I hope it doesn't affect the outcome).

Hi Momoffive,

Not sure why your face became oily as I'm not familiar with that product.

So you mean to say, after completing the 18-week-program, I cannot go on maintenance with using the clear just once or maximum if twice a week? I'm afraid that the brown spot will resurface if I don't include the clear with my maintenance.
Is it okay to use the tret with blender once or twice a week for maintenance too?

- Obagi recommends to keep using Clear and Blender during maintenance. However, I believe more in Dr. Zein Obagi who now says not to use HQ continuously. So I use other lightners during maintenance, such as serums with licorice root, vitamin C, and kojic acid along with glycolic acids and the Personal Microdermabrasion. I use The History of Whoo Seol Whitening skincare, which is really excellent for pigmentation. Also SK-II Whitening Spots Specialist serum. I also mix azeleic acid with tretinoin - this has been shown to work nearly as well for pigmentation as HQ & tretinoin but without the side effects of HQ.

- I didn't get much rebound pigmentation until I went to Australia for six weeks. I am quite active outdoors so am pretty pleased not to have all the melasma return. However I wear double layer sunscreen and hats at all time outdoors. Some did return but I expected it.

Do you use the Peter Roth pads as your toner and exfoliant as one?

- No, on maintenance, I use a separate toner to rebalance the skin's pH and also to help with moisture. On Obagi, I just used a mix of apple cider vinegar and distilled water (much cheaper than the Obagi toner and serves the same purpose as I compared it to the the results of the first Obagi toner I had).

And one more concern, how come my peeling is not really what I call peeling, it's more of flaking. I wanted to peel in sheets, but so far they're only flakies, it's more like dandruff ( I'm sorry for the gross comparison).

- Seems as if you are also doing an aggressive regime if you are using .1% tretinoin and .5 gram of Blender. How much peeling you experience depends on a number of factors: The amount of damage you had to begin with; The efficacy of the products (are you applying them correctly); Whether your skin is oily or dry (more drier = the more peeling); Whether you are using non-Obagi products that have any moisturizers in them; and Amount of time in regime.

- I think you just recently started so wait and see. Some people don't start peeling until months in and some never peel at all. All that matters is in 18 or 24 weeks that you are pleased with the results. You don't have to peel to get results, just that most people do.

- I do want to share that on my second round of aggressive regime, I only peeled for four weeks and then just flaked the rest of the time. I think it is because I had a lot less damage than 18 months ago so not so much to peel off. It was so easy compared to the first round of six months!

Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:15 pm

Hi again,
Thank you so much for your replies and amzing tips.
Your tip on skim milk seems to be working for me. I did it 10-15 minutes prior to cleansing. And it worked. Now, i'm wondering if I can do this at work without affecting the result. I'm thinking of doing it at least 5 hours after my morning routine, wash it off with plain water, then apply the sunscreen at least half hour before heading out.
I'm also contemplating of buying the Clarisonic if that will really help.
I purchased the Obagi Vit. C 10%. Is it alright to incorporate it with my regimen? will this have more bearing with the result or should I just use it on maintenance, although I don't know the expiration on it.
I also ordered the La Roche Posay Anthelio 50 Mineral Tinted and the Colorescience Mineral Powder SPF50. Can I use the LRP instead of the Obagi? Or can I use the powder ALONE?
With your vinegar-distilled water toner, what would be the ratio?
Once I'm on maintenance can I use moisturizer? I still have almost a whole tube of LIFECELL and I dont want to waste it.

Thank you,

free skin care · Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:22 pm

Momoffive wrote:

Your tip on skim milk seems to be working for me. I did it 10-15 minutes prior to cleansing. And it worked. Now, i'm wondering if I can do this at work without affecting the result. I'm thinking of doing it at least 5 hours after my morning routine, wash it off with plain water, then apply the sunscreen at least half hour before heading out. I'm also contemplating of buying the Clarisonic if that will really help.

Hi Momoffive,

- Glad if I can help as a I learned alot on this board - EDS is an amazing resource.

- Using the skim milk during the day is OK but just make sure you are giving the Clear and your exfoliating product enough time to work. Five hours may be adequate. Or you can reapply Clear during the day. With a physical sunscreen, you do not need to wait before going out as it reflects the UV rays and does not need to be absorbed into the skin. The Obagi sunscreen is a mix of both chemical and physical if I remember correctly so you would need to wait for the chemicals to be absorbed.

- I think the Clarisonic is great for deep cleaning. For flakies, the skim milk and washcloth is good. I also sometimes massaged with olive oil for ten minutes when the peeling got really bad but you are not supposed to use any oils during Obagi. The skin will just peel off though without hurting the new skin.

I purchased the Obagi Vit. C 10%. Is it alright to incorporate it with my regimen?

- Yes, Vit. C will help lighten the pigmentation, give an added layer of sun protection, and provide some exfoliation. Use after Toner on a dry face and let it soak in for a few minutes.

I also ordered the La Roche Posay Anthelio 50 Mineral Tinted and the Colorescience Mineral Powder SPF50. Can I use the LRP instead of the Obagi? Or can I use the powder ALONE?

- You can use any sunscreen as long as it is physical (meaning it contains a large amount of titanium or zinc dioxide) as it goes on as the last step. I did not like the Obagi sunscreen as it balled up on my skin. Make sure your sunscreen is not moisturizing.

- I used Colorscience and PTR powder sunscreen to top off during the day. There is no way to apply enough powder SS to get adequate protection alone. But it great as a supplementary SS and also to set any foundation or SS.

With your vinegar-distilled water toner, what would be the ratio?

- I can't exactly remember as this round I am using a toner that is ph balanced. I think it is 1:4. I found the recipe on this board so perhaps you can search it. ACV is ph 4 so you just need to dilute it enough so you can stand it. I put in a spray bottle and sprayed my face after cleansing.

Once I'm on maintenance can I use moisturizer? I still have almost a whole tube of LIFECELL and I dont want to waste it.

- Well, the theory is you are not supposed to need moisturizer because Obagi balances your skin. For my super dry skin, I do have less dry skin after using Obagi. But I use loads of moisturizer on maintenance because nothing fluffs up the skin giving it a nice dewy and unwrinkled look like a good gob of moisturizer!

- I store all my skincare in the fridge while on Obagi to hopefully lengthen their shelf life.

Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:29 am

Hi Denisiel,I appreciate all your replies as they encourage me to tough out this regimen. Smile

The LRP has Titanium Dioxide and zinc Oxide with 24% each. But what ingredient/s to look for to see if this is moisturizing or not?
I googled the History of Whoo Seol, and they are very tempting! lol! Can it be used as a moisturizer as well?
IF I ever to wear moisturizer, do you have any suggestions? and do I apply it before or after the Tret?
And regarding the tret, you mentioned that you mix it with azeleic acid. where do you buy the acid? what is the name for it? and do you mix them together the same way as you do with the blender?
I hope you don't mind my asking, do you personally use now any moisturizer at all?

thank you and have a wonderful day.

free skin care · Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:09 am

Momoffive wrote:

The LRP has Titanium Dioxide and zinc Oxide with 24% each. But what ingredient/s to look for to see if this is moisturizing or not?

- I look at the first five ingredients for any oils or glycerin. The LRP seems really good.

- I googled the History of Whoo Seol, and they are very tempting! lol! Can it be used as a moisturizer as well?

The HOW Seol is a multi step line (lots of steps!) and the different products work synergistically together. It does have a moisturizer but I find it is not rich enough for my dry skin so I top it with a rich moisturizer from Shiseido or another HOW line or an oil at night. That being said, I think the important products in the Seol are the Whitening ones. But when I used the entire line, I saw a significant brightening to my skin - not meaning pale face - but more like a luminous glow after a month. I never had a skincare line produce such a noticeable effect like the HOW. The company has many lines for young, older, dry, oily, etc...all types of skin and problems. Quite pricey but the products are super concentrated and you need just a smidgen. If you're interested then maybe try some sellers who have sample packs - good way to see if it works.

IF I ever to wear moisturizer, do you have any suggestions? and do I apply it before or after the Tret?

- Try to wait at least 30 minutes after tret.

And regarding the tret, you mentioned that you mix it with azeleic acid. where do you buy the acid? what is the name for it? and do you mix them together the same way as you do with the blender?

- I buy the brand name Skinoren but there are probably other brands as well. I spend time in Hong Kong and almost every cream can be purchased without a prescription. If you search this board you will see people talking about where they buy it in the US or maybe you can also get it from a dermatologist. Yes, I mix it with the tret or sometimes if I have more time I will apply Skinoren first, let it soak in for half an hour, apply tret, wait half hour and then apply moisturizer. Please note that if you mix it, you are diluting the strength of the tret so you may need to use more tret.

I hope you don't mind my asking, do you personally use now any moisturizer at all?

- Yes, I always have several moisturizers in rotation when on maintenance. On Obagi Nu Derm I do not use any moisturizer to force my skin to rebalance and peel.

- Good luck, stick with Obagi and you will have good results!

Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:38 am

Thank you.
Hongkong is similar to the Philippines where you can get products easily without prescription. My sister is going there sometime next month, she can possibly get me the acid.
I really hope to stick it out.

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