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Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:30 am  |
| I haven't had a problem with wrinkles under my eyes - i had a few lines that come with age but for the most part, i wasn't overly concerned because it was not a problem. The only thing I've used for over 5 years it Obagi's Elastiderm that kept the wrinkles at bay. I do use retin A and on my face but i avoid under the eyes. Well, a few weeks ago i used Emu oil on my face and my skin liked it. I had read that its also good for sinking the product deeper into the skin and that mixing it with your eyecream would be beneficial - so i did... BIG MISTAKE... i woke up the next morning with crinkles and wrinkles under my eye like i've never seen before!!! The wrinkles are so deep and crinkled it looks like the eye area of an 80 year old woman. I'm only 40. How did this just happen overnight? Of course i stopped and hoped that it would bounce back... not sure what to do - i kept using Elastiderm on its own hoping that would help. When that wasn't working, i thought maybe its best to stop and only moisturize with a natural oil - so i've been using Coconut oil with a little aloe.. but its been about 2 weeks now and no change. I dont' know what to do! I keep reading about the uglies, and i wonder if thats whats going on - and if so, how do i get it back to what it was - or is this permanent? Gosh I really hope not. If anyone has any advice or thoughts, please please let me know... |
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Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:16 pm |
Wow! I'm sorry this happened to you. I don't know anything about the products you're using but I've had a scare like you and my first instinct was to go back to the pros who are behind the product I believe might've caused me harm. In your case, maybe asking a dermatologist for direction may help? I honestly would not be trying any NEW things. If there's one thing I've learned is "better the devil you know" and it doesn't matter how much people rave about something, what you don't know can't hurt you and is something you can do well without.
While waiting for some people who might have experienced the same thing from those products or who might know where you went wrong to see your thread and post, maybe you could also ask Dr Pickart on the SkinBio forum (www.healthyskin.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x) as he's a pioneer in skin regeneration and a scientist and might be able to pinpoint what you did wrong. He does believe in Emu Oil so if it is the culprit then he would know. Also people on his forum post about uglies all the time, and so it's a department he is well-versed in. Maybe your problem was doing too much? Anyway, I suggest you ask him.
I'm sorry I can't offer any suggestions because I am not big on topical products. I don't even like or use eye creams and because I find them more of a problem than solution, I really have no idea what one can do. I would say don't use anything...but I don't know if that's the right thing to say. But I do believe someone who understands the structure of skin as well as the chemical compositions of the products you used and how they relate to your skin might be able to shed some light and give you good advice. And Dr Pickart is one such person. 
My best... |
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Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:21 am |
| Noni, Thank you for taking the time to reply - your suggestions are helpful. I did visit a dermatologist and as much as i explained what i had done and what had happened she didn't seem to be too concerned and said it was part of the aging process. Of course she hadn't seen what the skin around my eyes looked like before so it would be hard for her to see the difference. She recommended i do botox or use Vivite eye cream, which were both expensive but in desperation i bought the Vivite - however, i haven't used it yet because i'm afraid to try anything new that may make it worse. I know that my wrinkles around my eyes didn't used to be this bad because one of my clients is a plastic surgeon and a few months ago we were talking about botox and he looked at my face and told me to smile and act surprised - after looking at both expressions, he said i didn't needed botox yet - that was only a two month ago - can someone's skin age that quickly? Anyway, Thanks for your suggestion to check out Dr. Pickart on the SkinBio Forum. I will do that and see if i can get advice from there. And by the way, your smart not to use eye creams - i read somewhere that using it tightens the eye area and in doing so stretches the skin, which is actually worse because if you stop using and it goes back to normal, it doesn't bounce back all the way (depending on your age and elasticity) and actually causes the wrinkles. But i read that after i'd started using eye cream - so it was too late. |
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Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:48 am |
I personally don't think that is true about eye creams damaging skin. Do you have any studies showing that info that you can share?
Btw, Vivite is a great line and I liked their eye cream.
Eta: I am personally wondering if the Retin A migrated onto the eye area (especially with the emu oil) and caused the uglies that you are seeing now.
Also, I personally did not have good success with emu oil, and found that it made my skin feel dry so I had to stop using it.
I would recommend going back to only what worked for you in the past, and eliminate anything new you tried that possibly contributed to this. You will also need to look at skin barrier repair, as any retinol product does compromise the barrier and that may also be why your under eye area looks worse. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:03 am |
Bethany, i don't know where i read about the eye cream damaging skin - i dont' think there were studies backing it. It was just something i happened to come across in my searches - and it was the first and only time i had ever heard anything like that.
I'm surprised that the emu oil dryed your skin... that goes to show how everyone skin reacts differently - my skin really liked it, which is why i thought it was safe to put under my eye - it has even been helpful at lightening my hyperpigmentation/brown spots when i spot treated with vitamin E.
I didn't consider that the Retin A might have migrated into the eye area... that is a possibility. I never knew that Retin A breaks down the barrier. Don't some people use Retin A under their eyes without a problem?
How long does it take for the uglies to go away? |
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Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:17 am |
| angelbelli wrote: |
I didn't consider that the Retin A might have migrated into the eye area... that is a possibility. I never knew that Retin A breaks down the barrier. Don't some people use Retin A under their eyes without a problem?
How long does it take for the uglies to go away? |
Many people do use Retin A under their eyes, but you need to work up slowly. Some people have no issues, but others like me really struggle. However, the same book that I quoted below says that you can apply Retin A as mask for 1 hour and then wash off...same level of benefit with less irritation.
| Quote: |
The ongoing concern with use of any type of retinoid is the contact irritation reactions that commonly occur due to barrier disruption, variable amount of photosensitivity and proinflammatory activation of tumor necrosis factor alpha (TNF– α). Retinol, retinaldehyde and adapalene produce less contact irritation reaction than transretinoic acid when applied to the skin. Retinyl-propionate is even milder still. These all can be used in the treatment of rosacea. The transretinoic acid irritation usually resolves within two to four weeks. However, 6% develop visible contact irritant dermatitis. Those who continue to use retinoids, even without any visible irritation, still show a statistically significant abnormal stratum corneum barrier function at both six and 12 months as determined by transepidermal water loss. Those with sensitive skin experience a rate of contact dermatitis as high as 29%.(17)
Bourne, Krista; Thornfeldt, Carl (2010-01-01). New Ideal in Skin Health: Separating Fact from Fiction (Kindle Locations 2831-2832). Alluredbooks. Kindle Edition. |
Based on the sudden wrinkles that you are seeing, it sounds like dehydration. I would recommend a barrier repair product and back off anything else new. Things should look better in a week or 2. FYI that CeraVe is an affordable option with the required ingredients for barrier repair (ceramides, cholesterol, free fatty acids). |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:08 pm |
bethany I first got the idea not to use eye creams from Eva Fraser who introduced me to face exercises when I was 20. Then in my mid-twenties, a lady at one of the cosmetics counters at Debenhams told me that I had to use an eye cream. I told her that I only use Vaseline under my eyes at night and that my eyes were fine. She insisted I needed to do it as a preventative measure to keep my eyes looking good. So I took her advice and bought the eye cream, but within a day or so of using it, my eyes got puffy. I came across the same advice from a rep from the Erno Laszlo headquarters when they were visiting their counter at Nordstrom and again the sample I got (or did I buy?) gave me puffy eyes. Ironically, both times eye creams were recommended, those making the suggestion did not have under-eye areas I would want for myself. But I gave them the benefit of the doubt thinking that maybe they waited till it was too late to start and were trying to save me from making the mistakes they made.
On the show Extreme Makeover, when a doc was operating on a patient, a lot of gunk came from under the eye and the doc said it is common in people who use eye creams. I wonder if the idea behind this is to fill out tear troughs(?).
Anyway, when I stopped using the eye creams, my eyes returned to normal. The images below show my eyes at 35, not smiling then smiling respectively. Vaseline before bed and Eva Fraser's exercise program were all I was using:
I still only use Vaseline or nothing, and my eyes are doing fine.
So when I said I find eye creams more of a problem than a solution, the keyword was *I* (I was referring to my experience with them). Also, in the former YTF forum in a discussion about eye creams, I had shared how I only use Vaseline Petroleum Jelly and sometime later someone started a thread with a heading along the lines of "To the person who suggested Vaseline for the eyes" and then gave a positive review, which was followed by other thumbs up.
I should mention that using Vaseline may make milia a problem so anyone considering this, do it at your own risk. I do get the ocassional milia but I just ignore it and it goes away over time.
A few of you may clutch pearls in horror at my next statement so brace thyselves before reading on: I personally think that the reason there are such few pores around the eyes is because that area was never meant to have much moisture. I don't think the Creator made an error there. So methinks the less we smother the area with stuff, the better for it. Perhaps the secret to Vaseline is it prevent any moisture loss from that area. |
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Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:32 pm |
I typically use eye creams more for the actives as opposed to the moisture.
There was a significant amount of info in the book on petroleum jelly and mineral oil, and how they had been inappropriately labeled as dangerous. There were some definite pros to using Vaseline, but some cons as well (as with anything!). |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:17 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
I typically use eye creams more for the actives as opposed to the moisture.
There was a significant amount of info in the book on petroleum jelly and mineral oil, and how they had been inappropriately labeled as dangerous. There were some definite pros to using Vaseline, but some cons as well (as with anything!). |
If you do a search on the forum, you will see I am on the team that scoffs at the "Vaseline is dangerous on skin" rumor. I too quoted scientific articles that show it is harmless. And I know people who have used it way into old age and never got ill from it, so meh! I will continue to use it on my skin and I bet you I will not be posting a thread asking for a solution for my "Vaseline damaged skin". I see more problems arising from the fancier products. I am yet to read something bad Vaseline did to skin. I am willing to be the guinea pig that rides this bus till the wheels fall off. I will let you all know what damage I incur from it. |
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Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:15 pm |
Thank you Bethany - i'm considering running out to get the CeraVe. I'm not sure what to think about the vaseline - i've heard people use it with great success - but i've always wondered if it would clog my pores. I've used coconut oil and other essential oils around my eyes in the past... and they've been nice, but because i have bags (fat pads) under my eyes i'm always careful not to use it that often, or use something that might make them worse.
Noni, Do you think vaseline could be another option to use to hydrate my under eye area for these wrinkes??? |
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Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:16 pm |
| angelbelli wrote: |
Thank you Bethany - i'm considering running out to get the CeraVe. I'm not sure what to think about the vaseline - i've heard people use it with great success - but i've always wondered if it would clog my pores. I've used coconut oil and other essential oils around my eyes in the past... and they've been nice, but because i have bags (fat pads) under my eyes i'm always careful not to use it that often, or use something that might make them worse.
Noni, Do you think vaseline could be another option to use to hydrate my under eye area for these wrinkes??? |
Vaseline is an occlusive that seals in existing moisture and protects during certain healing scenarios, but it will not heal a damaged skin barrier. Yes I have clinicals for that, but won't be digging them up, lol.
Hopefully you have enough info at this point to decide your next step....keep us posted! |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:35 pm |
| angelbelli wrote: |
| Noni, Do you think vaseline could be another option to use to hydrate my under eye area for these wrinkes??? |
angelbelli, I don't know if Vaseline will remove wrinkles since beside using Vaseline, I also do face exercises...and I know the exercises were instrumental in removing wrinkles and puffiness I got from, ironically, another face exercise program.
The photos you saw upthread were taken on July 3, 2005. Four months later, I had messed my eyes up while still using Vaseline from doing another face exercise program I started shortly after taking those photos. My eyes on November 23, 2005 looked as they do below (I am smiling in the first image but not the second--notice the lines under my eyes when not smiling):
I stopped doing the exercise program but continued using Vaseline and the bulking up I had gotten from that program that made me have puffy eyes when I smiled subsided, but in place of the puffiness, I got wrinkles when I smiled:
I never stopped using Vaseline but I started a new program 13 months after I had stopped the one that caused me problems (January 24, 2007). I had tried using Eva's program to see if it could undo the damage but it seemed unable to so for about 6 months I did nothing and just let my face be. Then after that hiatus, I started another face exercise program (never stopped using Vaseline) and my progressive results were as follows (I am smiling in all photos)--still using Vaseline:
By September 2007, my eyes were much better. I am smiling in the first photo but not the second:
By 2009, my eyes looked like this when I was not smiling:
and when I smiled, they looked like this:
and they still look more or less the same now, but I am still doing face exercises. I still use Vaseline.
So my take is Vaseline will not make things worse--except for milia which seems to come when you use oily products around the eyes. It may not necessarily fix your problem but I know it has never caused me any problems.
In fact I now I use Vaseline on my hands after learning that from Eva too who has the best looking 82-year old hands I have ever seen (FF to 3:13 to see): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcyRLKq3aZg&feature=youtube_gdata_player For years I handwashed clothes and dishes with detergent and never wore gloves so my hands were pretty wrinkly looking. Vaseline seems to have turned them around so they are much better. Water-based hand creams and lotions used to look good on application but my hands would look old and wrinkly later and feel dry. I don't have that problem with Vaseline. I should mention Eva does take good care of her hands as she wears gloves in extreme weather and when doing chores.
Anyway, sorry to go off topic a bit, but I don't use Vaseline with anything else under my eyes and I would not know anything about adding it to what you are doing. Maybe send Eva Fraser an email to ask her what she thinks about it helping your situation. (http://www.evafraser.com/contact.html)
I am so sorry that I don't have any clever advice; just suggestions on who might. Perhaps the piece of advice I can give for the future is to avoid piling on too many things as that makes it harder to pinpoint the cause of a problem if one develops. I send you positive vibes. Please believe this too will pass and do not let any initial disappointments of suggestions you get from those who understand topical products discourage you. If people make suggestions, it is probably because they have worked for someone before...so one of them is bound to work for you too.
Hugs...
" |
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Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:08 pm |
WOW! you are really committed to doing face exercises! It looks like its really payed off. I tried them once... maybe lasted 3 months and i didn't see any changes. I was never sure if i was doing them right. I'm so glad you found something that works for you. Thank you for sharing your pictures. You have beautiful eyes! and the bags you had just disappeared. Were yours fat deposits or water retention? My bags look very different. If i had a picture i would post it. I think i'll take some pics tomorrow and email Eva to see if her exercises can help the wrinkles or bags.
Well thank you so much for all your suggestions.
Every bit lead to something that might work, so its all helpful and I truly appreciate it. |
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Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:56 pm |
| angelbelli wrote: |
WOW! you are really committed to doing face exercises! It looks like its really payed off. I tried them once... maybe lasted 3 months and i didn't see any changes. I was never sure if i was doing them right. I'm so glad you found something that works for you. Thank you for sharing your pictures. You have beautiful eyes! and the bags you had just disappeared. Were yours fat deposits or water retention? My bags look very different. If i had a picture i would post it. I think i'll take some pics tomorrow and email Eva to see if her exercises can help the wrinkles or bags.
Well thank you so much for all your suggestions.
Every bit lead to something that might work, so its all helpful and I truly appreciate it. |
Thank you for the compliment.
I don't think my problem was fat or water related. There was a doc who said he thought I had fat deposits people get with age that could only be fixed with surgery but I refused to believe him because I didn't have a hint of aging four months prior, plus I knew what I had done. I think the program I was doing somehow messed up the integrity of my skin there. The aggressive pulling probably stretched the skin which is why I got wrinkles. If it had been water retention I doubt the problem would have lasted so long or disappeared when I changed nothing else at all in my lifestyle except the exercise program I did. I can't really explain why the new program was able to fix my issues--I just never cared to know because when I first developed the issue, I spent months trying to understand what had gone wrong and to learn the muscles of the face to try to see if I could figure out how to fix it. It did me no good. Being oblivious to the what, why, how...has been working better for me. |
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