Simple C+E+Ferulic serum
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Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:33 am

Hi, I'm sorry for posting about this here again, but I could only find recepies for this type of serum with alcohol/vodka, and I'm hoping to avoid this.

Ideally I'm hoping to just make a serum with water, l-ascorbic acid, alpha-tocopherol (1 %) and ferulic acid (0.5 %).

I read that ferulic acid can be dissolved in hot water, would anyone know how hot it has to be? And if boiling water would ruin it?
Could I just dissolve the ferulic acid first, then add the rest of the ingredients once cooled off?

Also, I'm thinking of starting as low as 5 % with the l-ascorbic acid, as I have quite sensitive skin and haven't had good luck with this form of vitamin C in finished products before - and then if all goes well, gradually build up my tolerance to 15 %. Would you change the quantities of Vit. E and ferulic acid for lower percentages of C?

Thanks in advance.

free skin care · Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:10 am

The melting point of ferulic acid is 170-174º C.

A bit of oil in the formula will make it more skin-friendly imho but you can try it without oil.

Yes I would keep the ferulic acid and vit E % the same regardless of the vit C content. Good idea to start low and work up!

But using water-soluble vitamin e acetate will give you a water-only serum w/o needing an emulsifier:

http://stores.skinessentialactives.com/-strse-53/Vitamin-E--fdsh-dl-dsh-alpha-dsh-Tocopheryl-acetate/Detail.bok

Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:25 am

Thank you fawnie Smile

I'm sorry, dumb question, do I add the ferulic acid to water and keep heating it up until dissolved then?

Thank you. How about those alpha tocopherol softgels, could they be used? Or is that when I need an emulsifier?

Yes, obviously newbie here. Very Happy

free skin care · Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:47 am

I would heat the water first then add the ferulic, but you could do it either way.

Soft gels vit E are oil soluble I believe, so you would need emulsifier or have to shake/stir before using. Oil and water dont mix without emulsifier like lecithin. Think of salad dressing. It separates.

Newbie is where we all started, and making C serum is a good way to learn!

free skin care · Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:15 am

You're going to get only a very itty bitty amount of Ferulic Acid to dissolve in H20, if any. As Fawnie pointed out, the melting point is above 170C and water boils at 100C. You'd also have significant evaporative loss of H20 and FA would likely just precipitate out again.

I would use a bit of EtOH or NaOH. It's such a tiny amount it shouldn't really have too much affect on your skin.

free skin care · Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:41 am

P.S. I guess I should clarify - I do know that dissolving and melting are 2 different things.

The point is, though, you won't get much dissolved FA in H20 Smile

free skin care · Sun Dec 29, 2013 12:38 pm

bacchus wrote:

P.S. I guess I should clarify - I do know that dissolving and melting are 2 different things.

The point is, though, you won't get much dissolved FA in H20 Smile

Hmm, good point. Do we know how much FA is dissolved in water? I too use NaOH to dissolve my FA when making a C serum since it automatically partially neutralizes the ascorbic acid (I use AA2G which is very acidic initially but can be used at higher pH).

Some mfrs claim theirs is water soluble but dont specify "how" soluble:

"Molecular Structure

O
HO
O
OH
trans-Ferulic Acid

Characteristics White or off-white crystalline powder

Solubility
Soluble in hot water, alcohol and ethyl acetate; moderately soluble in
ether; sparingly soluble in petroleum ether and benzene.

Specification Food Grade (98%)
Category Skin Care, Sun Care, Hair Care

Functions Antioxidant, UV filter, Anti-aging, Anti-inflammatory

Features
EcoCare™ FA is the pure natural antioxidant from rice bran.
Effectively scavenges free radicals and suppresses melanin generation
by antagonizing tyrosine. Used as an UV protection agent and
whitening agent in cosmetic products.

Applications Sunscreen lotions, anti-aging creams, skin lightening creams

Typical Dosage 0.25-5.0% (depending on application and formulation)

Packing 5kg aluminum foil bag, 10kg paper drum or 25kg paper drum

Transport Non-hazardous cargo (IMDG/IATA)
Remarks Safety and efficacy report available upon request.

Available only for R&D uses if covered by patents.
Manufacturer ECOCHEM LABORATORIES LTD.
Distributor
ECOCHEM SPECIALTIES LIMITED
P.O. Box 65, Changzhou, Jiangsu, China
T: 86-519-88120006 F: 86-519-88122985
E: sales@ecochem.cn W:www.ecochem.cn"

I use FA @ 0.5% but in water I spose it could be overshot @5.0% to compensate for solubility issues, but dont quote me/its just a WAG.

Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:30 pm

Thanks guys. Apparently ferulic acid is also very soluble in propylene glycol?
So perhaps I'll add that, and lecitin to emulsify the alpha-tocopherol with the water.

By the way, tap water or distilled?

Are the percentages of propylene glycol and lecitin trial and error? Smile

And I won't need a preservative other than the vit. E, right?

free skin care · Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:49 pm

Oddinary wrote:

Thanks guys. Apparently ferulic acid is also very soluble in propylene glycol?

So perhaps I'll add that, and lecitin to emulsify the alpha-tocopherol with the water.

By the way, tap water or distilled?

Are the percentages of propylene glycol and lecitin trial and error? Smile

And I won't need a preservative other than the vit. E, right?

Ive never used propylene glycol as a solvent on my skin so I dont know, sorry. I can understand if you have religious bias against alcohol but its really better for the skin than propylene glycol imho.

Distilled water.

Vitamin E is an antioxidant not a preservative so yes you need 0.5% preservative if you are making more than you will use up in a week refrigerated.

Why not rethink the whole thing and use 1-2% sclerotium gum as a gelling agent to make a suspension instead of an emulsion? It would be a lot easier given that you are only using 1% vitamin E (if you decide to go with the oil form of E).
http://stores.skinessentialactives.com/-strse-105/Sclerotium-Gum%2C-15-grams/Detail.bok

Or dissolve 0.5% xanthan gum in part of the water phase and use that to bind the oil and water phases together. Xanthan gum is available in health food stores in the baking section.

free skin care · Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:16 am

fawnie wrote:

Why not rethink the whole thing and use 1-2% sclerotium gum as a gelling agent to make a suspension instead of an emulsion?
http://stores.skinessentialactives.com/-strse-105/Sclerotium-Gum%2C-15-grams/Detail.bok

Just an FYI for ya.. "Ingredientstodiefor" which is based in Texas, sells "sclerotium" gum for less than half the price your friend "DragoN" is selling it for in Taiwan. (Based on the link you provided.)

SEA 15grams for $8.50
ITDF 1oz for $7.02 (and 8 sizes to choose from, with better prices for larger quantity.)

http://www.ingredientstodiefor.com/item/UltraPureGel/1264

free skin care · Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:27 am

Oddinary wrote:

Apparently ferulic acid is also very soluble in propylene glycol?

I use dipropylene glycol because it's got a better safety profile but is usually the same price. It works a charm if you are interested!

Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:40 am

fawnie wrote:

Ive never used propylene glycol as a solvent on my skin so I dont know, sorry. I can understand if you have religious bias against alcohol but its really better for the skin than propylene glycol imho.

Distilled water.

Vitamin E is an antioxidant not a preservative so yes you need 0.5% preservative if you are making more than you will use up in a week refrigerated.

Why not rethink the whole thing and use 1-2% sclerotium gum as a gelling agent to make a suspension instead of an emulsion? It would be a lot easier given that you are only using 1% vitamin E (if you decide to go with the oil form of E).
(Link removed)

Or dissolve 0.5% xanthan gum in part of the water phase and use that to bind the oil and water phases together. Xanthan gum is available in health food stores in the baking section.

Okay, I guess I'll have to use a sucky solvent no matter what, if alcohol is better for skin than propylene glycol, I guess I'll use that after all. Why is propylene glycol unsafe, I see it in many things?

Sorry, suspention? Would it be a "shake-it-up"-solution-thing?

Yes, I would like to use alpha-tocopherol rather than the powder (acetates?), only due to the proven effects of this in combination with ferulic acid and L-AA. Smile

Ok, my simple serum is getting more complicated. Very Happy

But I'm learning a lot of new things, thanks for that.

Distilled, got it. Smile

So, I found a preservative-mixture with "INCI: Phenoxyethanol, Methylparaben, Ethylparaben".

I'm good with all of these preservatives, so I could add 0.5 % of this mix.
At which point do I add this?

Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:43 am

Chlorophyll wrote:

Oddinary wrote:

Apparently ferulic acid is also very soluble in propylene glycol?

I use dipropylene glycol because it's got a better safety profile but is usually the same price. It works a charm if you are interested!

Excellent, thanks. Smile

Would you be able to tell me what can be unsafe about it? I see all kinds of "food grade propylene glycol" - is it really that bad?

free skin care · Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:43 am

Oddinary wrote:

Chlorophyll wrote:

Oddinary wrote:

Apparently ferulic acid is also very soluble in propylene glycol?

I use dipropylene glycol because it's got a better safety profile but is usually the same price. It works a charm if you are interested!

Excellent, thanks. Smile

Would you be able to tell me what can be unsafe about it? I see all kinds of "food grade propylene glycol" - is it really that bad?

No, not really. Dipropylene glycol is just less irritating and whatnot than propylene glycol. It's usually not any more expensive either so I prefer it. (Sometimes I'll even use both if I have a formula with a ton of actives and I want lots of penetration power.)

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