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Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:16 pm  |
Many of us are or have been users of both manual facial exercise regimes (Ageless, Flex Effect etc) and micro-current devices (Tua viso, NuFace...).
The million-dollar question is:
Which one gives better results?
Or does your routine combine both the device and the manual method?
 This isn't a thread to discuss whether exercising the facial muscles is a good or bad thing ...that debate is raging nicely elsewhere!
It's purely to compare results we have found after using both methods. |
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Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:25 pm |
This post is by CM5597 and is taken from the Dr. Schultz explains thread;
| cm5597 wrote: |
But the focus of the article still was to measure the impact of electric stimulation with some resistance on muscle lift and hypertrophy. The Pan G appears to allow one to apply some resistance to the muscle, as well as electric current, so this sounds like somewhat of a hybrid approach of both electric simulation and resistance training.
Some interesting quotations from the article...
"Aging is also associated with atrophy of muscle fibers, reduced synthesis of muscle proteins, and decreased mitochondrial function. (9) Resistance training increases strength in older adults and is associated with muscle fiber hypertrophy. (10) Muscle strength has also been increased by electrical stimulation. (11-15) Facial muscles have been stimulated with high-voltage electricity as part of a therapeutic procedure for Bell's palsy. (16)"
"This study describes a novel method, the Pan G[TM] Lift (Pan Germinal Systems, Clearwater, FL), to achieve a nonsurgical face-lift. The procedure utilizes repetitive high-amplitude electrical stimulation of the muscles to achieve elevation of the soft tissues of the face. The goal is to induce muscular hypertrophy that will lead to a lift and firming of the brow, cheeks, jawline, and neck. The treatment is based on the "body building of the face" protocol described by Mulholland. (17)"
"The MyoFacial[TM] consists of repetitive stimulation of the muscles with a machine that uses a high-voltage electrical current (MEDUCE[TM], an acronym for Muscle, Epidermal, Dermal, Ultrasound, Cavitation, Electrical) (Pan Germinal Systems) while the muscles support a tensile load placed on them by the MyoFacial Resistor (Pan Germinal Systems)." [Wow, so it sounds like they are using some resistance, as well as electric simulation]
"Each of 35 consecutive adult women aged 50 to 56 years received 20 biweekly MyoFacial treatments consisting of repetitive 20- to 50-milliamp stimulation of the elevating muscles of the face, at times against resistance, over a 10-week period."
"The Pan G Lift was designed to train the elevator muscles of the face. The MyoFacial probes are specifically placed on and stimulate muscles that elevate facial soft tissue--the frontalis, zygomaticus major and minor, digastric sling, levator labii superioris, and platysma--while stimulation of the facial depressors such as the depressor corrugator supercilii, lateral orbicularis oris, lateral orbicularis oculi, depressor septi nasi, depressor angularis oris, and medial platysma are assiduously avoided. (17)"
"Electrical energy is delivered via 2 metal probes to a specific facial muscle at its origin and insertion points under the skin. A proprietary sinusoidal current with a range of 25 to 50 milliamps produces full tetanic contraction and relaxation of the full length of stimulated myofilaments. This hard work leads to the synthesis of new myofilaments, resulting in muscle hypertrophy. (17) After the fourth to sixth treatment, the elevator muscles are placed under a tensile load with the MyoFacial Resistor applicators. This amplifies the potential hypertrophic effect, similar to increasing weights in weight training exercises."
"One could exclude all the data pertaining to the brow and periorbital area and focus only on the lower two-thirds of the face and neck in order to assess the efficacy of the MyoFacial component of this procedure and exclude the "Botox" effect, if one wished to do so."
"Results of the Pan G procedure differ from those of more familiar procedures such as skin tightening because the Pan G treatment fills in areas of volume loss. In the muscular areas of the cheekbone, for example, aging causes the skin and muscle to sag with the formation of folds in the nasolabial area and a drooping cheek mound. When the Pan G procedure stimulates these muscles to hypertrophy, the enlarged muscles occupy a larger volume under the skin and return to their more normal position on the zygomatic arch. This leads to a very "natural" looking result as the facial muscles and skin appear to return to their size and texture of when the patients were younger." [Don't know whether they are using other evidence, their own evidence, or theory to support this statement.]
"The primary goal of the Pan G procedure--to lift tissue of the eyes, jowls, cheeks, and neck--has been achieved. (Skin texture improvement was a secondary goal.) A major limitation is the need for prolonged and constant maintenance. Since exercise is essential to maintain hypertrophy in larger muscles, (19-21) this requirement for the smaller facial muscles is not unexpected. A frequent criticism of this type of treatment is that the effects are temporary. Cessation of MyoFacial treatments for more than 7 weeks leads to reversal of the hypertrophic changes that had been achieved."
"Since the Pan G treatment is a novel procedure, studies showing association between facial muscle hypertrophy and cosmetic improvement were not found in the literature. It is well known that the physiological response to resistance training is muscle hypertrophy, (10,22,23) but studies of resistance training of facial muscles are lacking because facial muscles are very small and it isn't possible for us to isolate them for individual exercise. Fortunately, since facial muscles are small, only a small amount of current is required."
"There are many other electrical stimulation devices for spa and home use. Most do not have enough energy to adequately stimulate muscle to complete contraction, often causing fasciculation, which does not lead to hypertrophy. Other devices have no way to isolate individual muscles, so they stimulate all the muscles in a given area. Such a non-specific approach could lead to unwanted stimulation of depressor and rhytidogenic muscles."
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0PDG/is_5_5/ai_n26889498/?tag=content;col1
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Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:26 pm |
This post is from Vangirl3 and taken from the Dr. Schultz explains thread:
| vangirl3 wrote: |
It looks like both the Pan G and the oralift (dental device) are essentially muscle stimulators, which goes a good ways to further the argument in favour of facial exercises! I would think that resistance training would be even more beneficial than either the oralift/Pan G because you are physically working your muscle harder. I did find this in the FE book... these are Debbie Crowley's thoughts on electrical devices. Keep in mind that this was written a number of years ago when the technology for electrical stimulators wasn't as advanced as it is today, so not sure if her thinking has changed:
Electrical Stimulator:
Muscle shortens, but due to a lack of resistance, does not involve an eccentric contraction (lengthening). This type of training procedure produces tone and increases strength but does not increase muscle density.
She goes further to say that it's important after each contraction that the muscle returns to a completely relaxed state, which may not happen with electrical stimulators as the time between contractions is so short. Also, there is a lag time between stimulus and muscle response, so you may not always be reacting to the pulse (ie if there's ten pulses you may only be responding to 5).
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Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:43 pm |
One of the most interesting quotes from the article I quoted was this one:
"There are many other electrical stimulation devices for spa and home use. Most do not have enough energy to adequately stimulate muscle to complete contraction, often causing fasciculation, which does not lead to hypertrophy. Other devices have no way to isolate individual muscles, so they stimulate all the muscles in a given area. Such a non-specific approach could lead to unwanted stimulation of depressor and rhytidogenic muscles."
So the scientists are saying that some of the electric current devices work better than others, and that two of the keys are (1) getting a good *complete* muscle contraction and (2) being able to apply the electric stimulation to the right muscles you want to lift. |
_________________
34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:56 pm |
CM5597, that's both interesting and worrying.
The attraction of devices such as Tua Viso is that you both feel and see the contraction which makes you psychologically feel it's doing more than the manual method. However it's near impossible with my TV to target specific cheek muscles without the eye twitching away. Infact the eye twitch is usually stronger than the cheek movement for me! |
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Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:59 am |
Ha ha - this is great. I was actually thinking of starting a similar thread. I have a NuFace, and I do Ageless. I am starting to wonder if both together are making my muscles overtired. Not that I have really noticed anything adverse or actually done any experiments. (But now maybe I will have to!) I was looking for articles, but have found nothing super interesting as of yet.
It is my understanding that the TV actually moves the muscle, right? If I am worried that the NuFace would be too strong combined with FE, than for sure the TV would be too strong. But as of yet, I am still looking into it.
Before I started facial exercises in earnest, I had gotten the NuFace. I had been under a lot of stress, and my face was sagging. The microcurrent helped my nasolabial and my jowl area immediately. After a two or three uses, my face was completely lifted, and when I went off it for a while, the results lasted for a couple of months.
Ageless is definitely more aggressive. Of course, I have not experimented with the the NuFace, but I would be afraid of trying anything like reshaping (as is kind of hinted at with Suzanne Somers' machine). And I hadn't been using NuFace very much before I started FE.
I think the FE and the Nuface give different benefits. The microcurrent seems to zap any problems I may have forming under the skin - it definitely has helped with acne. It makes you look refreshed. But the facial exes combined with exercise plump up my skin more. The exes leave my skin "glowing", the NuFace leaves my skin "radiant". I know that is splitting hairs - I just mean that my face...well...looks like I've exercised, after I've exercised. And all the benefits that go with that. Whereas the NuFace is more subtle.
I would be curious to know if anyone who has the TV does both (TV and FE). |
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Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:38 am |
Hi again!
I do Ageless and use a TV. I've been doing neither for that long (um...started Ageless 6 weeks ago, TV 3 weeks ago). I find that I can use the TV whilst sitting on the computer so I tend to use it more and for awhile, so I wouldn't get overtired muscles, I stopped the Ageless. However I didn't notice anything happening. I find it very hard to target a specific muscle with the TV, as mentioned I get a huge twitch in my eye rather than my cheek muscle and lower down, it was drawning my lip away so strongly, it was exaggerating my NL fold. This was at level 5 out of 10 so lord knows what it would do any higher. I use it at level 1 or 2 but then I wonder if it's actually doing any good.
I'm back on the Ageless routine and hope to see some positive results soon.
BTW there have been some interesting ideas posted on the Ageless forum about the amount of reps and strength of grip. Basically taking weight training as an example, many reps low resistance will tone and reduce body size; low reps and high resistance builds muscle dramatically. I'm now doing only 10reps, holding for 10 secs and using a strong grip.
Any views on this? |
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Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:36 pm |
| I did manual facial exercises for about seven weeks and found I dreaded doing them. I am the same way about going to a gym. I am avid about it for about three months then get tired of it and quit going. I love my Tua Viso. I find between that and the STOP which is a completely different device, my jawline is very clean no sagging. |
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Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:27 pm |
| How have the two been for the N/L crease? Also are you under 40?? |
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Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:54 am |
| I am 60 and the TV has been great for the NL fold. |
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Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:59 am |
KayS, you may have just convinced me to continue with the TV and look into Stop!
How long have you been using them?
Is the firm jaw and improved NL because of plumper cheeks? |
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Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:36 am |
| No, I think in my case my cheeks are only going to get so plump without intervention. It is just that everything has firmed up. If you would like give me your e-mail address and I will e-mail you a picture. I have used the STOP for just about eight weeks twice a week and then you are supposed to use it as needed. I just purchased the Tua Trend from Nancy at NCN Professional skin care and it takes less time than the TV and is much smaller. They say it is the new improved version. |
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Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:31 am |
Thank you Kay for offering to mail a photo, I'll PM you my address.
But how long have you used the TV? (Assuming you had this before buying the TT). 8 weeks is quite a short time to have had the benefits you've described if it's down to these devices. |
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Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:27 pm |
| I have been using the Tua Viso since January. And with the STOP you are supposed to use it twice a week for eight weeks. That is the treatment time then you use it as needed. It is quite astounding. Most of my results have come from using the TV five days a week for three month then I started using it two times a week for maintenance. I also use good skin care products and take vitamins. I live a pretty holistic lifestyle |
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Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:16 am |
This might surprise people, but I'm not actually against microcurrent gadgets. I saw Tina Richards at one of her workshops, had to go along as was hearing different stories from different people and I was quite impressed.
I like how it can search out weaker fibres but and this is only a personal note here, I much prefer to use the body's energy to impact the face rather than external electrical impulses. Having said that, I know several people who combine both (tua viso in conjunction with facial massage they learned from me) and this seems to be quite pleasing for them. I have tried the TV a couple of times only during the workshop, but facial exercises for me is so much of a habit now, I don't think I'll ever give them up, but I think that microcurrent technology does have a place in today's world for sure.
When you place your fingers on your face, the body recognises it as its own tissue and if we believe energy medicine, our fingers emit light pulses of energy. I truly believe that we are energetic beings, and that by doing things like massage etc, we are utilising our own energy systems to rejuvenate our faces - but having said that I liked the device from what I saw of it and it did give people at the workshop some great results.
The other thing I was impressed with by Tina was her recommendations to people about food and supplements. She really focuses people on improving themselves through good diet and supplements as well as using the TV (and I really like her presentation) and she also has wonderful skin too and is really a sample of how good TV results can give people!
Sean |
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FlexEffect Trainer |
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Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:45 pm |
Do the electrical stimulator increase the size of muscle? Or just increase strength.
I can't speak to these at all... but have always wondered about them.
A girlfriend of mine used an electrical stimulator on her back... She had visible scoliosis. The stimulator was placed on the the side that needed to be strong enough to pull her spine in it's direction... therefore straightening her spine out... MUCH BETTER than the brace they made her wear when she was younger, that probably just atrophied her muscles... but at least kept her spine straight.
Prior to its use, she had a good 1.5" lift in one of her shoes... she no longer needs that kind of assistance... |
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Claudia of FlexEffect... 43, fair skin, occasional breakout, Using ECO FROG (my own=disclaimer), and TrueScience (I also sell this)... Happy with that...Come visit on FB! |
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Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:53 pm |
| ClaudiaFE wrote: |
| Do the electrical stimulator increase the size of muscle? Or just increase strength. |
Well I'm hoping it does increase the size of the muscle because I'm trying to build up my cheeks. If you exercise your arm muscles, don't you increase your strength and the size of the muscles as well? I can't see why the cheeks wouldn't be any different.
I think I can see a small improvement in my cheeks, however, I'm not sure whether it's just from wishful thinking. But I'll keep on keeping on and see what happens. I do think that the muscles in my neck (the one that runs from the end of the jaw to the middle of the chest) looks more prominent, because when I first started I had difficulty finding the right placement, but now it's allot easier. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:11 pm |
Well... no... It depends on how you work the muscle. So for example, I can draw from dance experience. My legs were extremely strong... and I had low body fat so they looked nice and trim. But my muscle size was not very big... EXCEPT for my calf muscles. Which in dance you would work the same way at the gym... and I had very developed calf muscles with major definiation... But everything else was nice and tight... and strong...
To gain size you have to work the muscle from stretched and shortened positions... So your bicep builds by being stretched out and curling it into the "bump" with weights... It won't gain any size just by flexing...
So, I'm just curious if anyone actually experiences any size increase with these machines... tone seems totally reasonable...
Trying to wrap my brain around the concept... and goal... |
_________________
Claudia of FlexEffect... 43, fair skin, occasional breakout, Using ECO FROG (my own=disclaimer), and TrueScience (I also sell this)... Happy with that...Come visit on FB! |
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Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:17 pm |
| I used a Nuface for a long while - months and it was nothing like facial exercise results - Toby uses a STOP and TV as well as facial exercise. She may be a good judge here. Maybe these gadgets are a good way to get the muscle fired up and then once they are in a state of tone (awake!) the actual facial exercises would have a quicker result. That would be an interesting study. Or you could alternate on your lazy days. |
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Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:14 am |
| Keliu, You and I are on the same mission. I'm still trying to decide if TV is the way to go. |
_________________
65 Caucasion, history of acne, sagging, some wrinkling, rough texture. Using Dermawand, AALS, Microderm Machine,Copper Peptides |
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Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:42 am |
| I was quite impressed by Seans opinion very unbiased. I personally do not have the motivation to do manual facial exercises. I use my Tua Viso five days a week while watching Tinas dvd, she is so inspirational. I also use the STOP twice a week and light therapy once a week but my one must have would be the TV! |
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Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:17 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| Well I'm hoping it does increase the size of the muscle because I'm trying to build up my cheeks. If you exercise your arm muscles, don't you increase your strength and the size of the muscles as well? I can't see why the cheeks wouldn't be any different. |
So what I do know is if facial muscles are similar to body muscles, then you're only going to get an increase in muscle tone, but not an increase in muscle size. This is why you will find exactly ZERO bodybuilders use electro-current devices. I've never ever even once seen them mentioned in bodybuilding magazines over the years, and a lot of the info in those magazines is cutting-edge...They all lift heavy weights with low reps instead as that has been what has proven to increase the size of muscles the most.
Also, I just Wikipedia'ed it, and the Wikipedia article says "The effectiveness of the devices for sport training has been debated. A niche of coaches regularly use professional EMS devices as integral part of the training of their athletes, some of these are high profile coaches who used the technique to supplement the training of Olympic-level athletes.[28]" I think that obviously if electrical muscle stimulation was just as or more effective than conventional weight training, most Olympic and other serious athletes would be using it, but instead, most do not.
What these devices do is stimulate the muscle to contract, but they don't really provide any resistance, to my knowledge...This isn't to say the devices aren't worthwhile, but to indicate which particular goals they can help you achieve and which they cannot. These particular devices, when effective and used properly, should be good for increasing muscle tone and improving facial sag...so, for example, while they could make your cheeks look better by raising them back where they belong, they are unlikely to significantly increase the size of your cheeks...I hope that distinction is clear.
HTH  |
_________________
34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:31 pm |
| P.S. I saw a patent online for an electric muscle stimulation device for facial muscles, and it said that one of the keys was to making sure you are using a conducting gel so the current really travels well from the device to your muscles. Just thought I'd pass that along in case it is helpful |
_________________
34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:04 pm |
| KayS wrote: |
| I have been using the Tua Viso since January. And with the STOP you are supposed to use it twice a week for eight weeks. That is the treatment time then you use it as needed. It is quite astounding. Most of my results have come from using the TV five days a week for three month then I started using it two times a week for maintenance. I also use good skin care products and take vitamins. I live a pretty holistic lifestyle |
Is this the Tripollar STOP device? I just went to the site and wasn't very impressed by the advert. Seems to indicate that it rejenates skin, yes, but says little about impacting muscle (although it must e targeted to some degree). Only twice a week? Is that for about 15 minutes per time? |
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Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:33 pm |
| The STOP device does not impact on the muscle. It heats the collagen under the skin by using RF energy - which is supposed to have a skin tightening effect. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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