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Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:36 am |
Help! Just noticed the other day when looking in the mirror, a horizontal crease appears above my upper lip when I smile. It's almost like a smile above my smile. Where did that come from? And how do I get rid of it w/out using Botox or plastic surgery? |
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Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:58 am |
Is it right below your nose? I noticed the same thing recently but it's not unattractive, I don't think...More like a depression/shallow crease than a line so I don't worry about it. |
_________________ Derminator, phytoceramides, Retin-A, DIY Vitamin C serum, Ageless if You Dare and Pilates! |
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Sat Jan 11, 2014 9:54 am |
Ollie wrote: |
Help! Just noticed the other day when looking in the mirror, a horizontal crease appears above my upper lip when I smile. It's almost like a smile above my smile. Where did that come from? And how do I get rid of it w/out using Botox or plastic surgery? |
Image from RealSelf link below.
According to plastic surgeons, it is caused by contraction of the muscle between the lip and nose. So maybe face exercise gurus can advise you on how to relax the muscle or maybe microcurrent's "re-education of muscles" can relax the contraction for you. Perhaps Aprile, Sister Sweets, Kassy_A, Christine, et al may have suggestions on how microcurrent can help. It may also not hurt to ask facialdetox if massage can help.
http://www.realself.com/question/deep-horizontal-crease-upper-lip-when-smiling
http://www.realself.com/question/causes-horizontal-crease-upper-lip-beneath-nose-when-smile |
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Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:53 pm |
I just got thinking. If this line developed out of nowhere and you were not doing anything that may have caused it, and doctors believe it is caused by the contraction of a muscle in that area, couldn't it also be due to the slacking of muscles around it? Which probably means a full workout toning all muscles to get them back to how they were (something microcurrent claims to do--ie, return muscles to their norm) may also help. So I did a search using the keyword "horizontal" to see if anyone with this problem might have solved it with just face exercises. And it seems this reviewer below did! The cross she is referring to seems to me like the image one would see if you looked at a horizontal line going across the philtrum:
http://www.carolynsfacialfitness.com/shanti-h
Another thing I thought of, if the contraction is caused by a repeated expression, kinda like smile lines, then "rubbing out the wrinkles" may help "de-tack" it so the fold isn't "glued" into the muscle. That along with toning of all related muscles seems to me to be one way to fix this. See more about "de-tacking" in this article:
http://www.carolynsfacialfitness.com/face-exercise-it-works
I don't know if you read the thread Christine started about her 12 Day Microcurrent Challenge. In it she mentioned how a stretch of sorts could have fixed a dent seen on one side of her mom's face. I take it that a similar maneuver may be helpful in fixing this line if combined with toning of the areas around it, but don't take my word for it. Check with the microcurrent pros to see if that is the case.
Good luck! |
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Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:10 pm |
Immacolota, it's not the depression thing we all have above the middle of our lip that connects our nose. It looks exactly like the woman in the picture that Nonie aka AD posted.
Thank you for your research on the subject Nonie aka AD! I've heard of facial exercises but I'm too afraid to try them. For fear of skin wrinkles. Although, I have read some positive stories on here. I'd also like to stay away from plastic surgery procedures like micro current.
I'm not sure how long it's been there. Maybe it's been a while and I never noticed it before. I haven't paid attention I guess. I read somewhere this is considered a dynamic wrinkle. One that comes out when using that muscle not when you're face is at rest. It's very noticeable when I smile really big. So, I'm surely hoping this line doesn't become permanent. Do either of you think it will? |
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Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:06 am |
Ollie wrote: |
I'm not sure how long it's been there. Maybe it's been a while and I never noticed it before. I haven't paid attention I guess. I read somewhere this is considered a dynamic wrinkle. One that comes out when using that muscle not when you're face is at rest. It's very noticeable when I smile really big. So, I'm surely hoping this line doesn't become permanent. Do either of you think it will? |
Well, lines caused by expressions we make only continue to get deeper and thus permanent with time unless we do something to change that progression. This is where face exercise/massage, facial gadgets and cosmetic procedures come into play.
Think about this: the line came to be from frequent use of that muscle. You probably do it inadvertently so you probably cannot stop yourself from engaging it. It is this repeated action that took you from not having the line to now having it. Add to that gravity's effect on your face, normal aging (less skin renewal), and you can see that without doing anything to address these changes, then you will just get more of the same.
If face exercises scare you, perhaps you can consider the stimulating gadgets many people on the forum use...or even just massage. I cannot recommend any because I do face exercises but there are several threads that discuss them and even demo videos by Christine that can show you how well they work.
In any case, you will have to commit to whatever method you choose because the aging process does not stop. Collagen loss, bone loss, fat loss, muscle laxity thanks to gravity, skin elasticity loss, etc...just mean signs of aging get worse with passing time. So full commitment to an anti-aging regimen is necessary if you are to slow down the aging process. Add to this a healthy lifestyle and you can appear to reverse things. |
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Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:47 am |
Ollie wrote: |
Help! Just noticed the other day when looking in the mirror, a horizontal crease appears above my upper lip when I smile. It's almost like a smile above my smile. Where did that come from? And how do I get rid of it w/out using Botox or plastic surgery? |
Ollie, do you happen to have any filler in your lips? |
_________________ No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:01 am |
Personally, I see this often and think it is rather unique. I would not worry about this.
If you want to try a low tech method, I suggest something like medical tape, Furless (sold here at EDS) or Frownies. These do work well for other lines (forehead, the "11").
I like Furless for my "11". I wear these at night and if I am at home relaxing. |
_________________ Canadian with fair skin. 50+ years old sensitive and reactive. |
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Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:11 pm |
Thank you everyone for your helpful responses!
Bethany, I have never used any kind of fillers or had any kind of plastic surgery. I'd be afraid I'd come out looking like a duck! I read that women who get lip injections tend to have this line above their lip too.
Autumn 1995 & Nonie aka AD, I don't think this line I have is unique whatsoever? Maybe, I'll give some mouth exercises a try along with Furlees and maybe some Retin-a. Who knows maybe one of those will help. |
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Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:47 pm |
Ollie wrote: |
Thank you everyone for your helpful responses!
Bethany, I have never used any kind of fillers or had any kind of plastic surgery. I'd be afraid I'd come out looking like a duck! I read that women who get lip injections tend to have this line above their lip too.
Autumn 1995 & Nonie aka AD, I don't think this line I have is unique whatsoever? Maybe, I'll give some mouth exercises a try along with Furlees and maybe some Retin-a. Who knows maybe one of those will help. |
Ollie I do not think spot training or mouth exercises are what will help. I also don't think you should try to guess what to do. I think you should probably talk to a facial exercise trainer to see whether their program can help.
When I had N/L lines, working that area didn't fix it. When I had bags, working my lower eyelids alone didn't fix it. Spot training IMO is a recipe for looking worse.
I think you should PM microcurrent folks and ask them to chime in here. I know if I were the one having this problem, I would contact every pro to see what they advise. I would not try to figure it out on my own. JMHO |
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Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:48 pm |
Ollie, if it bothers you, I am sure you could get a very small amount of Botox there to relax it.
I used to get 2 units on each side of my Cupid's bow, and it made my upper lip turn up a bit and look slightly more defined without impacting my mouth mobility at all. |
_________________ No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:20 pm |
Ollie - Microcurrent is not plastic surgery nor is it in the same vein as fillers or botox.
I've read through the discussion and this may sound radical but I would consider botox in the area to stop the strength of the muscle contraction so you can start "retraining" the area.
You won't be able to do facial exercises with the muscle somewhat frozen but you could do facial detox in the mouth/lip area (and I would definitely do this). Also, I'd go in with microcurrent two weeks after the botox and hit it consistantly.
Also - I agree that there are lip exercises to change the way the muscle functions and may create change in the overall look. These you could start doing as soon as the botox starts wearing off. (a few months).
If it were me, I would use microcurrent to smooth the area and to work within the muscle structure.
If you would take the microcurrent route, I would NOT buy a cheapie unit for this. I highly doubt it would work at all. I don't know what your willing to spend for improvement but fillers, botox, etc are all expensive and temporary. Microcurrent has potential to help you but only if you get a high end unit with power options and some kick .
I don't think retin-a is going to do much of anything with regards to relaxing or changing the overall look. |
_________________ Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:49 pm |
So sister sweets you don't think applying microcurrent to the belly of the muscle causing the tight contraction that creates the line could relax it to where the line could be erased? In other words, can't "re-education" of the muscle work? |
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Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:12 pm |
Nonie aka AD wrote: |
So sister sweets you don't think applying microcurrent to the belly of the muscle causing the tight contraction that creates the line could relax it to where the line could be erased? In other words, can't "re-education" of the muscle work? |
Nonie I do think re-education can work. Absolutely.
Here's where my thoughts come in... Being in the business I'm in. Lip musculature can be killer tight - so tight that when you try to work on someone you almost cannot move the lips appropriately without hurting your own hands. It's involuntary and relentless on the patients part. When I saw that picture that's what I thought of. And maybe... maybe for Ollie what she needs is to release the muscle to give it a chance to relax. Upon relaxation other methods can take hold and create a better environment for her mind to understand and her physical ability to take over.
I am not saying it's the only way but I know how tight and unconvincing the musculature in that area can be.
For Ollie if it's a relatively new thing and it seems like it might be, she may be able to do this without the botox (that would be awesome)> Ollie - you will have to get to the work of it right away and see if change is occurring. And you need to be consistent with it and you will need to do more than a few things. I agree with Nonie hitting the area with microcurrent will help release.
Ollie - for a less invasive start: I would get going with facial detox at the mouth/lip area tonight!!!! and use it two or three times a day. And get frownies or furlesse. |
_________________ Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:49 pm |
Sister sweets, Thank you for adding your two cents! Do you happen to be in the cosmetology or plastic surgery field?
I'm not willing to get Botox, fillers or any other plastic surgery. I've read too many horrific stories of experiences gone wrong! I was looking for a more natural approach. I don't think micocurrent is for me. I thought it was plastic surgery but I was wrong. I don't have a lot of money to spend and after doing some reading on here it looks as though it's pretty expensive. I would be willing to try some facial exercises or anything else cheap that either you, Bethany, Autumn 1995 or Nonie aka AD could recommend. One thing I should mention is that the last few nights I applied heavy lotion to my entire upper lip area. And the next morning the crease was lessened quite a bit. could it be that this spot is just dry and needs more moisturizing? |
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Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:58 pm |
Ollie wrote: |
Sister sweets, Thank you for adding your two cents! Do you happen to be in the cosmetology or plastic surgery field?
I'm not willing to get Botox, fillers or any other plastic surgery. I've read too many horrific stories of experiences gone wrong! I was looking for a more natural approach. I don't think micocurrent is for me. I thought it was plastic surgery but I was wrong. I don't have a lot of money to spend and after doing some reading on here it looks as though it's pretty expensive. I would be willing to try some facial exercises or anything else cheap that either you, Bethany, Autumn 1995 or Nonie aka AD could recommend. One thing I should mention is that the last few nights I applied heavy lotion to my entire upper lip area. And the next morning the crease was lessened quite a bit. could it be that this spot is just dry and needs more moisturizing? |
Here is the cheap, quick version to get you started. The moisturizing is helping lesson the look but you need prevention girlfriend.
Get yourself some cheap medical type tape and put it over your line at night. (this helps with forehead 11's also). It's firmer than scotch tape and it will keep the line down and inhibit further development. Start the facial detox - basically back of the hand going back and forth over the lips and sides of lip about 30 times at each area. I swear it helps wipe out lines. Twice a day - more if you can. I'm also thinking maybe some pucker up exercises might help when you're thinking about it. (Head back - fish lips - kiss the ceiling).
Don't give up - you'll lick this thing. |
_________________ Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:59 pm |
Thanks, sister sweets for your input. Y'all have me expecting microcurrent to perform miracles. Of course having never seen any IRL, I haven't the foggiest idea of how easy it is to target the muscle in question, whether it is easy to grip or whether that is what one does...so I am just fantacizing really.
And then when I see results like those of the lady below who seems to have had a hint of that horizontal line before even when not smiling and then no longer has it after microcurrent treatment, I am convinced y'all are holding out secrets on us. J/K
Pics are from www.balancingtouchbymarcia.com |
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Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:20 pm |
Ollie, another cure for dry skin is drinking more water and eating good fats.
As far as face exercises are concerned, because I honestly have no clue, my suggestion would be to email any of these people and see what they say about fixing your problem. Maybe they can even give you a sample exercise to try out....
Loulou (www.agelessifyoudare.org),
Carole (www.facercise.com),
Deb or her trainers (www.flexeffect.com),
Eva's team (www.evafraser.com),
Master Tiong (www.facialdetox.com),
Carolyn (www.carolynsfacialfitness.com),
Elaine (www.faceworks.co.uk)
Dr Serene (www.drserene.com) |
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Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:18 pm |
Nonie aka AD wrote: |
Thanks, sister sweets for your input. Y'all have me expecting microcurrent to perform miracles. Of course having never seen any IRL, I haven't the foggiest idea of how easy it is to target the muscle in question, whether it is easy to grip or whether that is what one does...so I am just fantacizing really.
And then when I see results like those of the lady below who seems to have had a hint of that horizontal line before even when not smiling and then no longer has it after microcurrent treatment, I am convinced y'all are holding out secrets on us. J/K
Pics are from www.balancingtouchbymarcia.com |
Nonie - That is a beautiful illustration of the effects of microcurrent lifting NL and lifting sides of the mouth. Lots of "UP" (and out)going on here. This situation appears (to me) to be a different situation than the other person/picture. The issues with NL lines (sag and facial movement related) can be helped with microcurrent. Her whole face is more lifted.
The other picture looked like something unusual - a full-on issue across the upper lip (Created by a tight, constrictive muscle movement. I've been trying to recreate on my own upper lip how that came to be and it's difficult to do. I've honestly never seen such a thing. Without actually evaluating the person and the reason, it's difficult to say for sure. |
_________________ Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:47 pm |
Hi All,
I hope this can help figure out what that horizontal line above the upper lip is from.
I recently developed the same line after trying to spot treat with facial exercises for a few months. I have never done facial exercises before and got the exercise from a Howdini Facial Yoga video to lift cheeks (01:45 in).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WOI1Ce5L4A
That line shows up when I do a big and strong smile but... if I focus and concentrate to relax my upper lip I can release whatever muscle is pulling upward and the line won't show.
It sucks to be self-conscious every time you smile now. I've been following this thread for tips on correction. Thank you for all the suggestions.
Good luck, Ollie! I know what you're going through and I do not want Botox either. |
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Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:08 am |
sister sweets wrote: |
Nonie aka AD wrote: |
Thanks, sister sweets for your input. Y'all have me expecting microcurrent to perform miracles. Of course having never seen any IRL, I haven't the foggiest idea of how easy it is to target the muscle in question, whether it is easy to grip or whether that is what one does...so I am just fantacizing really.
And then when I see results like those of the lady below who seems to have had a hint of that horizontal line before even when not smiling and then no longer has it after microcurrent treatment, I am convinced y'all are holding out secrets on us. J/K
Pics are from www.balancingtouchbymarcia.com |
Nonie - That is a beautiful illustration of the effects of microcurrent lifting NL and lifting sides of the mouth. Lots of "UP" (and out)going on here. This situation appears (to me) to be a different situation than the other person/picture. The issues with NL lines (sag and facial movement related) can be helped with microcurrent. Her whole face is more lifted.
The other picture looked like something unusual - a full-on issue across the upper lip (Created by a tight, constrictive muscle movement. I've been trying to recreate on my own upper lip how that came to be and it's difficult to do. I've honestly never seen such a thing. Without actually evaluating the person and the reason, it's difficult to say for sure. |
Sis, you don't see a line right above her lip? IMO that is the same thing. Only difference is she isn't smiling, but I reckon if she was, it would be more pronounced.
Ollie says her line is non-existent when not smiling, which makes me think this lady's case is far more advanced since I see the line even when not smiling.
The fact that she has N/L lines as well only confirms to me what I suspected: that its appearance is not just from one muscle tightening up but also enhanced by others responding to the call of gravity and loosening up. So it would appear to me that, if microcurrent does what it claims to, namely tighten loose muscles and relaxed tight ones, then this tight muscle in the upper lip was relaxed while all others tightened to give the smooth contours in the "after" pic.
Looking at her before picture, her top lip seems to bulge out creating a dip right above it as if the upper lip muscle is pulled in/pinched. I have not seen this in anyone who hasn't had filler in lips, which is why I understood where bethany was coming from.
Am I the only one seeing this? Here's an attempt at zooming in and focusing on just her mouth:
Upthread I linked to a post by someone called Shanti who said she had a cross in her upper lip. I believe this was caused by a similar horizontal line and her philtrum. I assume she saw it when not smiling as that is when the philtrum stands out most. She didn't qualify her statement by saying it stands out when she smiles, which makes me think her case was similar to this lady's.
Anyway, to me the line is as clear as day on this lady. So clear that my eyes were immediately drawn to it when I saw her face because it is the only thing in her face that I don't regularly see in aging faces. My attention was drawn to it kinda like how one can't help but notice dimples on a face because not everyone has them so when someone has them, they seem to demand attention. I find this to be the case even if a dimple is ever so slight. And I bet my bottom dollar this line on this woman became even more pronouced when she smiled. |
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Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:27 am |
Thank you sylphee! I'truly hope this line doesn't start appearing when I don't smile when I'm older!
Hi Nonie aka AD, I hope you dont't mind me saying so but I don't see the same line that I have or the girl has in the first picture above. It's only apparent when I smile -for now-. I've never had any fillers or Botox or any kind. I don't have full lips either. In fact they're pretty thin.
I looked up some of the facial exercises you suggested. Thank you! It's so hard to decide which one to go with -overwhelming-. How can you tell one from another? |
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Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:07 am |
sylphee wrote: |
Hi All,
I hope this can help figure out what that horizontal line above the upper lip is from.
I recently developed the same line after trying to spot treat with facial exercises for a few months. I have never done facial exercises before and got the exercise from a Howdini Facial Yoga video to lift cheeks (01:45 in).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WOI1Ce5L4A
That line shows up when I do a big and strong smile but... if I focus and concentrate to relax my upper lip I can release whatever muscle is pulling upward and the line won't show.
It sucks to be self-conscious every time you smile now. I've been following this thread for tips on correction. Thank you for all the suggestions.
Good luck, Ollie! I know what you're going through and I do not want Botox either. |
Ollie, Does yours look like this?
http://img.makeupalley.com/2/1/5/9/2531026.JPG
I have pretty full lips and the line only shows up when I smile. I'm 49, btw.
Here's my no-smile crooked face:
http://img.makeupalley.com/2/1/5/9/2531025.JPG
This is the first time I'm posting photos so I hope this works - kind of embarrassing. Since this only happened recently after doing that facial exercise, I'm thinking that some vertical muscle got over-built and tight - like the quadratus labii superioris or the caninus? - and they pull up the lip when I smile.
I'm going to try working with massage and microcurrent to release and relax the muscles. All this is guess work so I'm open to suggestions too. <---smile but not too big because of the horizontal smile line |
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Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:19 pm |
Sylphee, Wow! You have such beautiful lips and lovely skin! They're much fuller than mine. I would love to have lips like that!
The space between your lips and your nose is shorter than mine too. To me, your line is very faint. I can barely see it. My line is a little higher and longer. I think I can see mine more because I have very light skin.
I'm hoping facial exercises will do the trick for my additional -smile above a smile line- . I don't think you need to worry much about yours. I think it blends well with the rest of your mouth. I' m open to any other suggestions too! |
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Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:44 pm |
Ollie wrote: |
Thank you sylphee! I'truly hope this line doesn't start appearing when I don't smile when I'm older!
Hi Nonie aka AD, I hope you dont't mind me saying so but I don't see the same line that I have or the girl has in the first picture above. It's only apparent when I smile -for now-. I've never had any fillers or Botox or any kind. I don't have full lips either. In fact they're pretty thin.
I looked up some of the facial exercises you suggested. Thank you! It's so hard to decide which one to go with -overwhelming-. How can you tell one from another? |
Hi Ollie:
I know you don't see the line when you don't smile. I said that when I said that I believe both Shanti and this lady had the advanced stage of what you have. Your line is newly formed and you are much younger than the lady in the image.
This is kinda like how at the end of 2005 my N/L lines would be so pronounced when I smiled. They did not show up when I didn't smile. Of course I know that N/L lines show up when we smile anyway but in July of that year, they were shallow and didn't look like a fold, but were youthful. The bad change later that year was the N/L lines looking older, deep and clearly were now a fold when I smiled, whereby the cheek skin which was previously lifted and toned was now lying over the skin below so I felt it.
Compare that with an older person who does not do face exercises. N/L lines show all the time even when not smiling. So that IMO is what we have here. Repeated smiling with that line appearing as it does on you plus deteriorating collagen and skin elasticity as well as increased muscle laxity with age have all added up to that fold becoming ironed in in this lady so that it appeared even when she was not smiling, the same way all her other lines also did before microcurrent.
IMO lines that form when we make expressions are just a glimpse of what could become permanent with age unless we do something to counter that. Laugh lines in people start off as only showing up when they smile. But as people age, laugh lines become permanent. And the same goes for frown lines, 11's, crow's feet, etc. Earlier on, all the lines are temporary and only there during an expression. But repeating the same expressions over time and with aging always in progress, we gradually become a map/record of every expression we ever made:
I listed as many face exercise programs as I could think of, not so that you necessarily pick one, but so you have a good pool to do your research from. Personally I would contact all and let that be how I start to decide on where to seek my solution. But I am a bit nutty: when something is bugging me, I don't settle for the first thing I see, but I research till I am sure no stone has been left unturned. So one way IMO to decide on a program would be to contact all and see what advice you get. I mean how long would it take to write one email addressed to all? Probably just as long as it takes to post here...and you would hopefully get a response that is more than the guesswork or empathy you are getting here and thus be well on your way to solving your problem. |
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