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Sun Mar 06, 2005 10:17 am  |
Hi Everyone! I'm hoping someone out there will be able to help! I'm still very uncertain with respect to the question of stability and vitamin C.  According to the scientist (Meisner) who created the Cellex C serum formulation, the following is true (according to her and what I think she said...), that: ascorbic acid is indeed inherently unstable - which is why, up until Meisner, no one had bothered to explore meaningful opportunities for topical therapy. In order for it to quote, work unquote, 2 other ingredients have to be incorporated into the formula, namely; tyrosine and zinc (and so the Cellex C patent is born...). With the Cellex C I've purchased I always get this flourescent coloured note informing me that the product WILL darken BUT that this will not disrupt the efficacy of the product when used as directed. Which begs the question, does this turning of colour (in the case of Cellex C) translate into corrupting oxidization?, - or does the patented formulation (ascorbic acid, zinc, tyrosine)cancel that out?  If the darkening of colour destroys the ascorbic acid - then why do they say it does not - isn't that illegal?  I've noticed that Skinceuticals is missing the tyrosine....does this mean that the Skinceuticals' ascorbic acid is not optimally engineered and therefore not as effective? Do these "other" VCs need to look for other means of stabilization because they can't, by law, incorpate the Cellex C patented formula which protects the ascorbic acid? Any insights would be really appreciated...I wish I knew a bio-chemist 
Pudoodles |
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Sun Mar 06, 2005 10:41 am |
| Vitamin C is just unstable period. However oxidation of the product apparently does not do anything to the efficacy. I have used it when it turned brown with no problems. On the other hand I have read that vitamin c starts to break down even as its being bottled! The most stable form of vitamin c at the moment is magnesium ascorbyl phosphate which is a more stable form of vitamin C. I've used both the Cellex C AND the Serious SKin Care product and I see the EXACT same results as I see with Cellex C. Having said all this, I really don't believe theres ANY one ingredient thats good for skin. How come there isn't a product WITH ALL THE GOOD ANTIOXIDANTS lumped together in one single bottle? Now wouldn't that be nice for us!! |
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Sun Mar 06, 2005 11:12 am |
Ive just received my Vivier serums today, turns out they had been left with my next door neighbour, and they were in Benidorm this week, and despite having people there minding the house, I only got the box on their return today  Anyway, on the leaflet it says that the colour may change and again it wont effect the product in any way. I cant wait to use it later, have also got the Vivier cleansing foamer. It does say results will appear in 3 to 5 months....... |
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Sun Mar 06, 2005 11:42 am |
Wow SusieQ! the same results with Serious Skin?! I've only tried the C cleanser (which was lovely...) but never any of the other C products...that's amazing! Cindi -- well, at least you have your stuff now  . Didn't you order Cellcosmet eye cream? If so, then from what I've heard, that will more than make up for your rotten experience with the Okusil! I think I'm going to order that Cellcosmet trial kit - I can't stand it anymore!
Pudoodles |
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Sun Mar 06, 2005 11:44 am |
Hi Pudoodles, I did order the cellcosmet eye cream which was very naughty of mr, but its been such a crap week, I thought, What the .... I hope it meets my expectations. One thing you can count on however is I'll be letting you all know.  |
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Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:16 pm |
Check out psfskincare.com and see what they say about their Vit C serum being the L-absorbic acid being "locked in", etc. I'm using some of the other products (not for very long yet) and so far they are the nicest/best organic products I have used. I'm really really liking the eye cream.
I can't used the viver, cellularskinrx and serums with the butyl glycol as a base. I don't like the smell or the feel of that on my face. I had a problem with a cellex c one being dark orange with particles before I even opened it so I'm leary to go that route.
I may try the pure skin formulations one next time. |
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Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:08 pm |
"The Great Debate
Probably the most controversial issue is the L-ascorbic acid vs. vitamin C ester debate. There is no question that Vitamin C is a fairly unstable molecule. We already know it can be oxidized by exposure to air. However, Cellex-C remains active for at least 6 months once opened and states their color change does not affect product activity right on their label. And in fact, Dr. Pinnell published another study in The Journal of Cutaneous Aging & Cosmetic Dermatology in 1988/89 in which the stability of L-ascorbic acid exposed to air was challenged. Collagen synthesis continued at a rate of 95% a month after oxidation occurred. Once the un-ionized form of L-ascorbic acid has penetrated the skin (requires that vital pH of less than 3.5), it continues to maintain its stability and cannot be removed through normal daily functions such as washing, rubbing or towel drying. I have spoken with cosmetic chemists who believe that the vitamin C ester issue is mere marketing hype and personally I would agree"
from
http://www.dermadoctor.com/pages/newsletter201.asp
I just read this yesterday, it may not apply as it's basically talking about the c ester adn l ascrobic debate but it seems to really have more to do with the stability of l ascorbic. |
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V2J 6P7 |
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Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:20 am |
| Cindi, that's great you finally got your vit c serums! I can't wait to hear how they work for you! |
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V2J 6P7 |
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Tue Mar 08, 2005 7:43 pm |
| lily wrote: |
Check out psfskincare.com and see what they say about their Vit C serum being the L-absorbic acid being "locked in", etc. I'm using some of the other products (not for very long yet) and so far they are the nicest/best organic products I have used. I'm really really liking the eye cream.
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Lily....
I'm trying psfskincare too and I really like them. I'm using the Green Tea Cleanser, the Daily moisturizer and the Eye serum. They have no scent at all and feel good on the skin. The product I was using before left my skin feeling very soft, but psfskincare leaves it feeling soft, but cleaner and well, just more "pure".
I'm really wanting to try their Vitamin C serum and the PhytoCranberry eye gel when it comes out.
JUDY |
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Looking young never grows old! |
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Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:45 pm |
| Lolli wrote: |
"The Great Debate
Probably the most controversial issue is the L-ascorbic acid vs. vitamin C ester debate. There is no question that Vitamin C is a fairly unstable molecule. We already know it can be oxidized by exposure to air. However, Cellex-C remains active for at least 6 months once opened and states their color change does not affect product activity right on their label. And in fact, Dr. Pinnell published another study in The Journal of Cutaneous Aging & Cosmetic Dermatology in 1988/89 in which the stability of L-ascorbic acid exposed to air was challenged. Collagen synthesis continued at a rate of 95% a month after oxidation occurred. Once the un-ionized form of L-ascorbic acid has penetrated the skin (requires that vital pH of less than 3.5), it continues to maintain its stability and cannot be removed through normal daily functions such as washing, rubbing or towel drying. I have spoken with cosmetic chemists who believe that the vitamin C ester issue is mere marketing hype and personally I would agree"
from
http://www.dermadoctor.com/pages/newsletter201.asp
I just read this yesterday, it may not apply as it's basically talking about the c ester adn l ascrobic debate but it seems to really have more to do with the stability of l ascorbic. |
Found an article about L-ascorbic acid vs. Vitamin C-Ester (ascorbyl palmitate):
http://www.hsrmagazine.com/articles/261feat3.html
It states..."Vitamin C ester (ascorbyl palmitate) differs from vitamin C (ascorbic acid) in that it is fat-soluble and stays in a person's system for a longer period of time to combat more free radicals."
The article also mentioned about ALA and DMAE as co-factors of vitamin C that help with preventing wrinkles (as stated in Dr. Perricone's book).
The only one i found so far that has all 3 ingredients in high concentrate (with added antioxidants such as green tea and a more potent version of ALA which is R-ALA)is PureDeming Intense Gel R-ALA:
http://stores.ebay.com/PureDeming
http://www.puredeming.com/ingredients/ |
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Wed Mar 09, 2005 1:23 pm |
The HSR Supplements article quote about the Olympian Labs product with Vitamin C ester "Vitamin C ester (ascorbyl palmitate) differs from vitamin C (ascorbic acid) in that it is fat-soluble and stays in a person's system for a longer period of time to combat more free radicals."
is in reference to oral supplements. The article I quoted is in relation to topical vit c.
The Pure Deming products are topical, the Olympian Labs product with Vitamin C ester is an oral supplement. |
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V2J 6P7 |
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Wed Mar 09, 2005 8:18 pm |
I have used Skinceuticals serum 15 and it does turn brown as well. According to SC reps,although it does turn color the stability is still good. I dont believe it has the same ingredients as Cellex C. The founders of both Cellex C and SC used to work together in some fashion (I forget the original story). But I think it has to do with who holds the original patent (both claim fame to it). I have my doubts about a Vit C product remaining effective after it has oxidized. What's a gal to do? Also I have read that Magnesiuum Ascorbyl Phosphate has to be converted in L-Ascorbic in the body thereby decreasing the effectiveness (lower percentage of Vit C being absorbed in the skin). Although MAP is very stable it has to be converted. I have yet to see a product with MAP at a high concentration. I also have read that L Ascorbic stays in your skin up to 3 days therefore there is not a need to apply everyday. Oh just to note, when I mention that, "I have read", this means on other boards where peer reviewed research was mentioned as a reference, think PubMed and the like. I am at a great loss as to what "product" or "version" is the most effective and stable.  One person on another board even mentioned that there may be more harm then good applying oxidized Vit C to the skin.  Please if anyone can clarify or enlightment me I would appreciate it. I need to buy a new Vit C product and dont know which route to go. Those with silicones are definately out for me. This whole thing with Vit. C is mind boggling! Txs! |
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Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:51 am |
Lily & Judy:
I just came across your posts - thank you for the kind words.  I'm glad that you are liking the products.
-Darren
psfskincare.com |
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Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:31 pm |
Blimey Darren, first outing yourself as male and now as a producer! Do I have no secrets?
I also rate the psf eyecreame and mini me is loving the cleanser and will be reporting back soon!
Liz x |
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my new jewellery website:www.gentle-medusa.com |
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Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:25 pm |
LOL! You kill me Guapa! Mabsy said that we have to put a signature if we talk about our product. I'll have to tell you a secret that nobody else knows so you feel special again. Hrmm...let me think.......
Hugs,
Darren |
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Mabsy
Moderator
 
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Posts: 9644
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Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:00 am |
| pbsadhaka wrote: |
| LOL! You kill me Guapa! Mabsy said that we have to put a signature if we talk about our product. I'll have to tell you a secret that nobody else knows so you feel special again. Hrmm...let me think....... |
C'mon, I'm sure you have another secret in your somewhere! |
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