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Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:42 pm  |
Disclosure: I am one of the inventors of ReCverin 50/50, and a partner in its manufacture and distribution. The rules of this forum state "Although we welcome product vendors on the forum in order to clarify product details etc when requested by members, any post, created by a product vendor or agent, that is seen to be promotional in nature will be removed..."
No forum member has explicitly requested the following product detail information, but there is a huge misunderstanding among many of the members about “oxidized vitamin C.” So I hope the moderators of this forum will appreciate my rationalization that “stating what is false is an implicit request to know the truth!”
The first step in the breakdown of ascorbic acid is its oxidation to dehydroascorbic acid. But this “oxidized” form of vitamin C is neither inactive nor undesirable, as is believed by so many people. In fact, dehydroascorbic acid is a naturally-occurring form of vitamin C, and it is absorbed by all types of skin cells far more rapidly and efficiently than is ascorbic acid. So “oxidized vitamin C” is not bad…it’s good! Now, it is true that further breakdown of dehydroascorbic acid can occur, by chemical processes that include hydrolytic as well as additional oxidative ones. Once this occurs, those breakdown products are no longer vitamin C, and ultimately some breakdown products that are yellow in color will form. But it is far more correct to describe this as “degraded,” rather than “oxidized,” vitamin C. |
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Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:16 pm |
 , Everywhere I read it is an oxidized form/component of ascorbic acid? Considering the following I can't imagine why I would use this on my face as it's used in sunless tanners?
As a cosmetic ingredient, dehydroascorbic acid is used to enhance the appearance of the skin.[9] It may be used in a process for permanent waving of hair[10] and in a process for sunless tanning of skin.[11] |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:01 pm |
| Also, just like Osmosis Catalyst that eventually turns black, why not DIY our own oxidized ascorbic acid serum if we were inclined to use one on our skin rather than pay $79.00 for 2 ounces of this product? |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Fri Dec 24, 2010 4:37 pm |
This could be said about ascorbic acid--I can’t imagine putting it on my face since it is used as photographic developer, considering this from Wiki: “Ascorbic acid is easily oxidized and so is used as a reductant in photographic developer solutions...”
And this could be said about glycolic acid (AHA, alpha hydroxy acid)--I can’t imagine putting it on my face, considering this from Wiki: “…this compound finds employment in the textile industry as a dyeing and tanning agent, …is often included into emulsion polymers, solvents and additives for ink and paint…” “Glycolic acid is a strong irritant.[7] …dangerous if ingested.”
What’s the point? Many compounds have multiple uses and properties, including dehydroascorbic acid (DHAA). If one reads the references attached to the Wiki statement quoted by DarkMoon, one will see that DHAA alone does not color skin or hair; it is one ingredient used in processes for doing so. The cosmetic manufacturer (L’Oreal) who filed the patent for sunless tanning is seeking a way to color skin without using a chemical called dihydroxacetone, which some people refuse to put on their skin even if they desire a tanned appearance. Likewise, the hair-coloring process is seeking safer chemicals than using the coal-tar dyes that are presently used in all hair coloring products, but which are known to be carcinogenic. Today’s consumers are increasingly “chemical conscious,” and they don’t like putting industrial chemicals and carcinogens on their skin and scalp. In choosing DHAA, cosmetic manufacturers are recognizing that this form of vitamin C is naturally present in the body, very safe to use, and is not only acceptable but very desirable to educated consumers.
Although patents have been issued for these new processes, there are no products on the market yet. There is a reason, and the reason is the difficulty in providing stabilized DHAA. And that leads to the second question by DarkMoon which is basically, “Why wouldn’t I simply make my own DHAA solution instead of paying $79 for two ounces of ReCverin?”
Well, the basic answer is that if you discovered HOW to do it, you would find that you couldn’t beat the cost, the quality, and most importantly, the stability! Regarding the cost, I would suggest checking the price of dehydroascorbic acid powder from chemical suppliers, and consider that each bottle of ReCverin 50/50 contains 1.5 grams of DHAA. Since we’ve spent years developing this product, I hope readers will understand that I’m not likely to post our trade secret process for making it. So you can take my word for it or not, but this can’t be made in your kitchen economically for personal use.
So, why would anyone want to use this expensive form of vitamin C if they can just make some cheap, high concentration ascorbic acid? Here are a few examples:
-Many people find the high concentrations of ascorbic acid in commercial products and in homemade solutions to be very irritating. People with sensitive skin can still get the benefits of vitamin C by using DHAA, because it is effective in lower concentrations and therefore very gentle.
-Many people use very high concentration solutions of ascorbic acid in order to push the levels in their skin as high as possible. Yet current knowledge indicates that there is a limit to the amount of ascorbic acid that skin cells can absorb, no matter how much is applied. In vitro tests show that almost all cell types absorb DHAA more efficiently, and higher intracellular levels of ascorbic acid are achieved using DHAA. Some people don’t think much about it, but EVERY known biological function of vitamin C, from collagen production to antioxidant protection, occurs INSIDE the cells. There is a great deal of extracellular water in skin, and it is great to saturate that with vitamin C, because it represents a “pool” of vitamin C that is available for the cells to absorb. But one might ask which form of vitamin C is most desirable in this pool; the form that SOME cells can absorb to a certain level, the form that ALL cells can absorb to higher levels, or even both forms?
-Very high concentrations of ascorbic acid are exfoliants. Some people like to exfoliate their skin occasionally, but daily exfoliation? There is actually a reason our skin is covered with a layer of dead skin cells, and stripping these away continuously is a questionable practice in my mind.
-Very high concentrations of ascorbic acid are known to “bleach” the skin, and many folks use it for this purpose, with good success in lightening skin either overall or on dark spots. But some people prefer a tanned skin tone, and will even subject their skin to dangerous UV radiation in order to achieve it. Who needs the antioxidant power of vitamin C more than someone who intentionally exposes his/her skin to intensely oxidizing ultraviolet radiation? Who might like to absorb vitamin C without bleaching away their tan?
-Not everyone has the time or inclination to make cosmetics in their kitchen. When comparing costs of good quality vitamin C serums ounce per ounce, I think anyone who purchases a commercial product should consider one containing DHAA to get the most bang for their buck. |
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Fri Dec 24, 2010 10:57 pm |
Looks interesting. Why don't you sell it here so we can get a discount? 
I use SkinBiology's LacSal (lactic acid, salicylic acid) at night and their copper peptides in the morning, followed by squalane. Would you suggest I use ReCverin at night or in the morning before or after copper peptides? |
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Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:24 am |
From: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2589959/pdf/yjbm00096-0045.pdf
Title: Regulation of Collagen Biosynthesis by Ascorbic Acid: A Review
from the Yale Journal of Biology and Medicine
Excerpt: "EFFECT OF ASCORBIC ACID ANALOGS"
"Several analogs of ascorbic acid have been studied; these include dehydroascorbic acid, D-ascorbic acid, and D-isoascorbic acid [3]. As demonstrated in Fig. 4, each of these analogs was capable of stimulating relative collagen production, but none was effective at the low concentration demonstrated for L-ascorbic acid. In general, a tenfold increase in concentration was required for these compounds."
I did a google search for 'collagen, skin, dehydroascorbic acid' and read a lot of scientific literature. Personally, I wouldn't spend my money on a dehydroascorbic acid product. As always, everyone makes their own choices.
I know the dollars, the expertise, knowledge, research, etc that the larger skin care product manufacturing companies have available to them. If dehydroascorbic acid was better they would be using it. And stability would not be an issue. I have personally spent many years stabilizing liquid, powder, and lyophilized (freeze dried) components and formulations. Stabilization is not a new process. There is a known science and approach to it.
As the French say "chacun ŕ son goűt". |
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Sat Dec 25, 2010 5:32 am |
Hi Jonny,
A good find! |
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Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:24 am |
| DarkMoon-just think of it as a 3 in one product. You can self tan, perm your hair, and get your vitamin C all from one sourse! |
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Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:29 am |
| tanyasusie wrote: |
| DarkMoon-just think of it as a 3 in one product. You can self tan, perm your hair, and get your vitamin C all from one sourse! |
LOL. Good One tanyausie! 
For his edification "acid" perms were already in use over 30 years ago when I attended cosmetology school, most perms are alkaline. Either way they need to be potent enough to penetrate the cuticle, matrix and into the cortex of the hair shaft break the hydrogen bonds and reform them.
My point nothing that can do that is going to be gentle! |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:06 am |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
| tanyasusie wrote: |
| DarkMoon-just think of it as a 3 in one product. You can self tan, perm your hair, and get your vitamin C all from one sourse! |
LOL. Good One tanyausie!
For his edification "acid" perms were already in use over 30 years ago when I attended cosmetology school, most perms are alkaline. Either way they need to be potent enough to penetrate the cuticle, matrix and into the cortex of the hair shaft break the hydrogen bonds and reform them.
My point nothing that can do that is going to be gentle! |
My thought was how bad does it smell? I associate both perms and self-tanning with a very chemical smell that gives me a headache. |
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Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:38 pm |
| So JonnyNJ, if cost doesn't seem to be a factor of effectiveness, which is the cheapest (short of making it myself) and best to buy? |
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Sat Dec 25, 2010 6:35 pm |
| SoftSkin wrote: |
| ...if cost doesn't seem to be a factor of effectiveness, which is the cheapest (short of making it myself) and best to buy? |
You will never find me recommending any one specific product as the "best" within a category such as "best vitamin-c topical" unless the evidence for effectiveness is overwhelming within a category. There are many effective products and within a category too many variables such as one's age, skin type, personal preferences for product qualities (texture, moisturizing ability), etc. |
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Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:19 am |
| SoftSkin wrote: |
Looks interesting. Why don't you sell it here so we can get a discount?
I use SkinBiology's LacSal (lactic acid, salicylic acid) at night and their copper peptides in the morning, followed by squalane. Would you suggest I use ReCverin at night or in the morning before or after copper peptides? |
At present, we distribute ReCverin 50/50 only by direct shipment from our production facility, in order to guarantee that our customers always receive fresh product. We recommend using it on clean skin before applying any other product, therefore applying it in the morning is often convenient. |
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Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:28 am |
| tanyasusie wrote: |
| My thought was how bad does it smell? I associate both perms and self-tanning with a very chemical smell that gives me a headache. |
ReCverin 50/50 is odorless. We are very proud of our clean, clear, pure, gentle formula that is free of any fragrances or other chemicals that can irritate the skin or otherwise be bothersome. |
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Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:28 am |
Why not make sample sizes of this available seeing as how passionate you are that this product is so effective? That way people could trial it for a fair amount of time and give personal reviews, that is what most EDSer's base their purchases on!
Also in the interest of full disclosure post a complete ingredient listing, some of us are not willing to use anything without knowing all that's in a product.  |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:48 am |
| JonnyNJ wrote: |
| ...Title: Regulation of Collagen Biosynthesis by Ascorbic Acid: A Review... |
Thank you for posting this reference which demonstrates that ascorbic acid at relatively low concentrations can stimulate collagen synthesis. ReCverin 50/50 contains both ascorbic acid and dehydroascorbic acid, in fact that’s where it gets its name (“50/50” refers to the fact that half of the vitamin C content is ascorbic acid, and half is dehydroascorbic acid). Each of the two naturally-occurring forms of vitamin C has its own advantages. Stimulation of collagen synthesis is only one of many benefits that vitamin C gives to the skin. We are proud to offer the only complete vitamin C serum containing both forms. |
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Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:34 am |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
Why not make sample sizes of this available seeing as how passionate you are that this product is so effective? That way people could trial it for a fair amount of time and give personal reviews, that is what most EDSer's base their purchases on!
Also in the interest of full disclosure post a complete ingredient listing, some of us are not willing to use anything without knowing all that's in a product. |
First, thank you for requesting the ingredients list! ReCverin 50/50 contains Glycerin, Vitamin C (as dehydroascorbic acid and ascorbic acid) and water. The concentration of dehydroascorbic acid is 2.5% and the concentration of ascorbic acid is 2.5%, giving a total Vitamin C concentration of 5%. The ingredients list plus a great deal of other information is posted openly and proudly on our website, and I recommend anyone with questions visit us there. I would gladly post a link, but this forum precludes me from doing so.
For various reasons we have not packaged small samples, one being that any vitamin C product should be used for at least several weeks before making any judgment as to whether the product improves the appearance of your skin. We instead stand behind our money-back guarantee as a way to offer new customers a risk-free way to evaluate our product. The terms of that guarantee are posted on our website. We welcome personal reviews by the members of this forum. |
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Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:09 am |
| ReCverin wrote: |
| ReCverin 50/50 contains Glycerin, Vitamin C (as dehydroascorbic acid and ascorbic acid) and water. The concentration of dehydroascorbic acid is 2.5% and the concentration of ascorbic acid is 2.5%, giving a total Vitamin C concentration of 5%. |
I don't mean to butt into this thread, but I have a few questions for ReCverin.
You state that your product has a total of 5% Vitamin C. Doesn't that seem kind of low? Studies have shown that collagen stimulation doesn't happen unless the product is 10% vitamin c or higher. Plus, on your website the directions state that you should mix equal parts of ReCverin with water before applying. So that would further dilute your product to only 2.5% concentration of total vitamin c. Can you please explain the reasoning for this?
Also I find it disturbing that your product contains no preservative whatsoever. I am all about organic, natural skincare, and I try to avoid harmful chemicals, but it seems like there should be some sort of preservative in there - even if it's a food grade preservative. I personally would never buy a product that doesn't have some type of preservative.
Also, I've never seen a vitamin c serum packaged in a squeeze bottle like shampoo. Most vitamin c serums are either in a dark glass dropper bottle or one of those airless pumps to reduce the chance of oxidation. Can you please explain why your serum doesn't need special packaging?
Please don't think that I'm trying to be confrontational here. But you started this thread obviously looking to stimulate a discussion about yur product. I just have some questions since the formulation & packaging of your product is so different from the standard in the cosmetic industry with other lines. Thanks in advance & Happy New Year!  |
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Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:48 am |
You aren't butting in doodlebug, everything you said I completely agree with, this product makes no sense to me at all? I may be totally wrong on this but if 50% is oxidized what protects the LAA from also oxidizing?
Happy New Year! |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:56 am |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
You aren't butting in doodlebug, everything you said I completely agree with, this product makes no sense to me at all? I may be totally wrong on this but if 50% is oxidized what protects the LAA from also oxidizing?
Happy New Year! |
You're right DarkMoon! I never even thought of that. But it would make sense that it would degrade the LAA even further. It just seems strange that every other vitamin c serum out there & all the DIY recipes go to extreme lengths to avoid all of these things from happening, and this product seems to do them all on purpose. I'm just as confused as you! 
You have a Happy & Healthy New Year too!  |
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Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:08 am |
It makes my mind go to things like rust and mold, that just spread and take off like gangbusters!?!
Your point about both the lack of a preservative and the packaging seem very valid in my mind!
Who knows if we will get a response, I have to wonder what could be said to make this appealing! |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:55 pm |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
It makes my mind go to things like rust and mold, that just spread and take off like gangbusters!?!
Your point about both the lack of a preservative and the packaging seem very valid in my mind!
Who knows if we will get a response, I have to wonder what could be said to make this appealing! |
Umm...well the $80.00 price tag isn't exactly swaying me to buy it either!  |
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Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:31 pm |
That's major $$$$ for something that's cringe worthy as far as my thinking. I don't like the sound of this at all.  |
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Don't let people drive you crazy when you know it's in walking distance. |
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Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:21 pm |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
Why not make sample sizes of this available seeing as how passionate you are that this product is so effective? That way people could trial it for a fair amount of time and give personal reviews, that is what most EDSer's base their purchases on!
Also in the interest of full disclosure post a complete ingredient listing, some of us are not willing to use anything without knowing all that's in a product. |
I only buy cosmetics that I have sampled,
that way Inever have to bother returning anything.
The few times I end up buying a product that I can not try...like deodorant.
I end up having problems with it and having to return the product to the store.
That happened to me last year with an organic deodorant I bought.
It was a new brand at the drugstore here- a organic store brand also.
And it happened to burn my skin and had to wash this product off my skin and was left with a mild chemical like burn and had to use benadryl cream and polysporin...not fun.
Even if you had to pay shipping for samples,that would be ok and I'm sure people would not mind.
The vitamin C cream I am back to using is Neostrata 10% vitamin C.
It comes in a jar with 30 uses.
You have to break open one of the capsules to get the cream out every day so it is not exposed to air until you use them.
I sampled this product and found it did make my skin smoother, so happy with it and the price so far.
Usually on sale a 30 use jar is around $30.
I don't use it every day as I find it slightly drying.
Also hate it for daytime as it does not go well w my makeup application.
The Body Shop has a similar product,but the % of vitamin C is not listed.
But since I got the jar of 28 capsules for $10 hopefully it will be ok to use.
Oh, and many chemicals have different uses.
What is in your toothpastes and mouthwash is also used to clean cars and engines and sometimes also a ingredient in Mcdonalds fries and cooking oil |
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Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:33 pm |
| doodlebug wrote: |
| I don't mean to butt into this thread, but I have a few questions for ReCverin...you started this thread obviously looking to stimulate a discussion about yur product... |
Hello doodlebug,
I am pleased that this thread has stimulated discussion and given me an opportunity to answer some questions about ReCverin 50/50, but I started this thread with only one goal…to dispel a common misunderstanding about dehydroascorbic acid: DHAA is not a bad form of vitamin C, it is instead a very good form, since it is absorbed so much more quickly and efficiently by human skin keratinocytes and fibroblasts (1)(2). You have asked several additional good questions that I wish to address, and as time allows, I plan to answer each of them. I hope you will understand that I simply haven’t the time to answer all of them today. Let’s start with your first question.
| doodlebug wrote: |
| You state that your product has a total of 5% Vitamin C. Doesn't that seem kind of low? Studies have shown that collagen stimulation doesn't happen unless the product is 10% vitamin c or higher.” |
I am familiar with two studies that show that ascorbic acid (AA) stimulates collagen production in human fibroblasts in vitro (3)(4). These studies demonstrate that AA in very low concentration (20 uM) in the cell culture medium has this effect. Concentrations at least 15 times greater than this are achievable in the skin by topical application of solutions containing 5% AA (5). One study has shown that a 5% solution of AA stimulated collagen production in vivo in human subjects (6). The 5% AA solution used in that study had a pH of 6.0, a pH level shown to be suboptimal for AA absorption (5), suggesting that lower concentrations of AA at optimized pH levels would be effective. It was also noted in this study that the stimulation effect was stronger in subjects with lower dietary vitamin C supplementation, suggesting that relatively low concentrations in the skin are sufficient for collagen stimulation. ReCverin 50/50 is formulated to contain AA at concentrations capable of raising the skin levels greater than have been shown necessary for this purpose.
I am NOT familiar with any study that has shown that “collagen stimulation doesn’t happen unless the product is 10%.” I am not, however, suggesting that there is no such study, only that I’ve never seen it, and that the studies I’ve cited here are in disagreement with that concept. If you know of such literature, please share it with me.
I wish to emphasize that although vitamin C has been shown to improve the appearance of fine lines and wrinkles associated with damaged collagen, presumably by increasing the turnover of collagen, this is only one of its many benefits. It is extremely important to understand that the collagen damage that caused these imperfections occurred due to the oxidative effects of free radicals and solar radiation, and that the antioxidant activity of vitamin C may have been able to reduce or prevent that damage. So, if using topical vitamin C doesn’t make you look 10 years younger after using it for a few weeks, that doesn’t mean that you are not gaining substantial benefit from using it. The protective effects of vitamin C are at least as important as its therapeutic ones. Thus when using topical vitamin C, it might be more important to ask yourself, “What would my skin look like today if I had begun using it 10 years ago?” or maybe even more importantly, “What will my skin look like in another 10 years?”
Thanks and Happy New Year to you also!
(1) Savini I, Duflot S, Avigliano L. Dehydroascorbic acid uptake in a human keratinocyte cell line (HaCaT) is glutathione-independent. Biochem. J. (2000) 345, 665±672
(2) Welch, RW, et al. Accumulation of Vitamin C (Ascorbate) and Its Oxidized Metabolite Dehydroascorbic Acid Occurs by Separate Mechanisms. Journal of Biological Chemistry 270(21) 12584-12592 (1995)
(3) Tajima S, Pinnell SR. Ascorbic acid preferentially enhances type I and III collagen gene transcription in human skin fibroblasts. Dermatol Sci 11 250-253
(4) Pinnell SR. Regulation of Collagen Biosynthesis by Ascorbic Acid: A Review. The Yale Journal of Biology and Medicine 58, 553-559(1985)
(5) Pinnell SR, Yang H, Omar M, Riviere NM, DeBuys H, Walker LC, Wang Y, Levine M. Topical L-ascorbic acid: Percutaneous absorption studies. Dermatol Surg 2001:2:137–142.
(6) Nusgens BV, et al. Topically Applied Vitamin C Enhances the mRNA Level of Collagens I and III, Their Processing Enzymes and Tissue Inhibitor of Matrix Metalloproteinase 1 in the Human Dermis. Journal of Investigative Dermatology (2001), vol.116, iss.16, pp.853-859 |
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