Can Vit A(Retinol) be used together with Vit C serum?
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free skin care · Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:37 am

As titled. If I apply a Vit C serum and then a moisturizer with retinol in it, would that be fine? Anyone did that before? Thanks! Smile

free skin care · Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:27 am

Usually vit.C serum is recommended to be used in the morning, as it enhances sun-protection, while retinol is recommended to be used at night, as it increases sun-sensitivity.

free skin care · Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:29 am

... and make sure to wait at least 15 min after applying vit.C serum and before applying anything else, and use a good sunscreen if you are using retinol.

free skin care · Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:07 pm

Yes, vitamin A and C can be used together. Some brands, like Leaf & Rusher, Dermalogica and EmergenC, combine retinol and vitamin C in their products.

As you call it a moisturizer with retinol, I reckon that your cream contains a relatively small amount of retinol. You should be fine applying it on top your vitamin C serum.

If it's a potent retinol cream with 0.4 - 1 per cent retinol, I would use it separately in the evening. I believe that a potent retinol product on top of a strong vitamin C serum will be too much and possibly cause sensitivity. I think it's wise to let strong actives work one at a time (vit C AM and vit A PM) in order to get the best results, just like Aiva suggests.

free skin care · Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:19 pm

Thanks Aiva & Septembergirl! I always get my answers from you lovely ladies here on this forum

I was thinking of using Vit C Serum and ss in the morning. Then at night, use Vit C and the moisturizer with retinol.

So I should wait 15mins after I cleansed and toned my face before applying the Vit C serum?

free skin care · Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:14 pm

You are very welcome, Stardusty. Smile

I don't know why you would use the vitamin C serum twice a day?? A vitamin C serum with 10 % concentration or more is supposed to be used once a day.

Also, if you use a toner, I believe your skin will achieve the correct pH value so that you don't need to wait before applying serums. I guess Aiva can confirm or correct this information. She is the waiting time expert.

I would suggest the following:

AM:
Cleanser/toner
Vitamin C serum
Sunscreen

PM:
Cleanser/toner
Retinol cream

free skin care · Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:35 pm

Hi Septembergirl! I didn't know that Vit C can only be used once daily. I was thinking the more I use it, the better it is? So I guess I'm wrong then! Thanks for clarifying for me. Smile

I guess my Spectro gel cleanser is ph balanced so I can apply Vit C serum directly afterwards then...

free skin care · Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:31 am

You are always welcome, Stardusty! Smile

we are here to help each other, and I myself have learnt a lot from other ladies on this forum Smile

no expert

, but I`ve read here that vit.C should be applied on perfectly dry skin, to prevent it from oxidation while making contact with wet skin. This is the only reason why you should wait 5-10 min after cleansing (BEFORE vit.C) - to get your skin DRY (provided your cleanser is pH balanced, if not - the other reason is getting right pH after cleansing).
Then you should wait 15-30 min AFTER appyling vit.C and before applying anything else to let vit.C do its work.
So you should do some time-management in the morning using vit.C Laughing

vit.C is supposed to be used once a day, like Septembergirl suggests, as it stay in the skin up to 72 hours and you will not get any more benefits using it twice a day - you`ll just be wasting an expensive product.

free skin care · Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:23 pm

Thanks Aiva! That's very informative! Smile

So once Vit C is absorbed into the skin, it stays there for 72hrs? I didn't know that until now... I thought I would wash it off at night so that's why need to reapply again. Embarassed

free skin care · Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:10 pm

Stardustdy wrote:

Thanks Aiva! That's very informative! Smile

So once Vit C is absorbed into the skin, it stays there for 72hrs? I didn't know that until now... I thought I would wash it off at night so that's why need to reapply again. Embarassed

right, once absorbed, vit.C can`t be washed off, it`ll stay in your skin up to 72hrs doing its work. (I`m actually not sure about 72 hrs, I remember reading this in another thread).

free skin care · Sun Oct 26, 2008 6:29 pm

Stardustdy wrote:

Hi Septembergirl! I didn't know that Vit C can only be used once daily. I was thinking the more I use it, the better it is? So I guess I'm wrong then! Thanks for clarifying for me. Smile

I remember reading in Dr. Yarosh's book (he is the Remergent guy) that the relationship between Vit C and elastin is still not fully understood, and that excessive Vit C could possibly break down elastin over time...so more is not better in this instance.

I'll look for the quote and post it.

Editing to add:

bethany wrote:

boski wrote:

What is Yarosh saying about elastin and vitamin C?

He says (page 202):
"There are several drawbacks to vitamin C, however. One is that it diminishes the levels of elastin, another type of cable in the skin. This might be a concern, since skin doesn't normally make more elastin after maturity; what you see is what you've got. The long-term effects of vitamin C on elastin have not been explored in depth."

The only additional thing I would add here is that I believe Retin-A has been proven to regenerate elastin, but one should still not overdo the Vit C.

free skin care · Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:18 pm

Aiva, so if the Vit C serum stays in your skin for up to 72hrs, does that mean I don't need to reapply it until the 3rd day? Confused

bethany, that sounds scary that overdoing the Vit C will actually break down the elastin overtime Shock

But how can one tell if you're overdoing it or not?

Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:28 pm

bethany wrote:

He says (page 202):
"There are several drawbacks to vitamin C, however. One is that it diminishes the levels of elastin, another type of cable in the skin. This might be a concern, since skin doesn't normally make more elastin after maturity; what you see is what you've got. The long-term effects of vitamin C on elastin have not been explored in depth."

is this true? wow jsut when i finally found a c that works for me......now i dont know if i should continue using it... Sad

free skin care · Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:41 am

Stardustdy wrote:

Aiva, so if the Vit C serum stays in your skin for up to 72hrs, does that mean I don't need to reapply it until the 3rd day? Confused

bethany, that sounds scary that overdoing the Vit C will actually break down the elastin overtime Shock

But how can one tell if you're overdoing it or not?

let`s ask bethany... she seems to know more Confused

bethany - what do you think?
and how can we prevent the break down of elastin by vit.c? - should we use it every 2 or 3 days? or should we alternate weeks/months of its use and rest?

free skin care · Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:18 am

I think that you should definitely keep using Vit C...it is one of very few things that are proven to contribute to skin regeneration.

As far as usage frequency, keep in mind that you only absorb a percentage of what you put on, so follow the usage guidelines of the company that makes it. My Obagi Professional C 15% says to use 5-7 drops daily, and they have one of the best absorption rates. But from a budget management standpoint, every other day would probably work fine as well.

And if you are also using Retin-A, which regenerates both collagen and elastin, you are covered on both fronts. Smile

free skin care · Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:27 am

bethany wrote:

I think that you should definitely keep using Vit C...it is one of very few things that are proven to contribute to skin regeneration.

As far as usage frequency, keep in mind that you only absorb a percentage of what you put on, so follow the usage guidelines of the company that makes it. My Obagi Professional C 15% says to use 5-7 drops daily, and they have one of the best absorption rates. But from a budget management standpoint, every other day would probably work fine as well.

And if you are also using Retin-A, which regenerates both collagen and elastin, you are covered on both fronts. Smile

bethany, it seems that every producer recommends using vit.C daily. But.. that could possibly be their commercial interest - if people used a product every other day, they would buy less frequently, wouldn`t they?
so what I mean - when vit.C really stays in our skin up to 72 hrs, and taken that overdose of it can cause trouble, shouldn`t we use it every other day instead of daily?

so my confusion here is - does vit.C have the same effectiveness if used every other day?
(remember 302 line - they do not recommend to use it daily??)
are we causing dangerous overdose by using it daily?

free skin care · Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:45 am

I don't think there is any reason for making confusion. The directions from the manufacturers say to use vitamin C serum once a day. Dermatologist Leslie Baumann, MD, recommends daily use in her book "Skin Type Solution". She is usually considered a trustworthy source.

free skin care · Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:50 am

Septembergirl wrote:

I don't think there is any reason for making confusion. The directions from the manufacturers say to use vitamin C serum once a day. Dermatologist Leslie Baumann, MD, recommends daily use in her book "Skin Type Solution". She is usually considered a trustworthy source.

thank you, Septembergirl Smile

free skin care · Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:02 am

Aiva wrote:

Septembergirl wrote:

I don't think there is any reason for making confusion. The directions from the manufacturers say to use vitamin C serum once a day. Dermatologist Leslie Baumann, MD, recommends daily use in her book "Skin Type Solution". She is usually considered a trustworthy source.

thank you, Septembergirl Smile

Sorry for not being clear. I did not mean to accuse you of causing confusion, Aiva. Smile

What makes things confusing, are all the diverging advices from various doctors who are manufacturing their own skin care lines. Vitamin C serum is the only antioxidant with a fair amount of scientific backing for its effectiveness, and it's shown to promote collagen production. Well, if it's true that it can break down elastin in our skin, as suggested by Dr Yarosh, people would obviously not want to use it.

Personally, I reckon Dr Baumann as an independent and trustworthy source in the field of skin care. She recommends the use of topical vitamin C every morning, preferably in combination with vitamin E.

free skin care · Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:15 am

Aiva wrote:

bethany wrote:

I think that you should definitely keep using Vit C...it is one of very few things that are proven to contribute to skin regeneration.

As far as usage frequency, keep in mind that you only absorb a percentage of what you put on, so follow the usage guidelines of the company that makes it. My Obagi Professional C 15% says to use 5-7 drops daily, and they have one of the best absorption rates. But from a budget management standpoint, every other day would probably work fine as well.

And if you are also using Retin-A, which regenerates both collagen and elastin, you are covered on both fronts. Smile

bethany, it seems that every producer recommends using vit.C daily. But.. that could possibly be their commercial interest - if people used a product every other day, they would buy less frequently, wouldn`t they?
so what I mean - when vit.C really stays in our skin up to 72 hrs, and taken that overdose of it can cause trouble, shouldn`t we use it every other day instead of daily?

so my confusion here is - does vit.C have the same effectiveness if used every other day?
(remember 302 line - they do not recommend to use it daily??)
are we causing dangerous overdose by using it daily?

302 doesn't recommend using anything daily (except the avocatin drops) in fear of burning out your skin receptors. But it appears that the majority of doctors do not believe that and say every day is fine.

But every other day for Stardusty is fine...she's young and does not need the same level of skin stimulation as older people.

free skin care · Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:14 pm

So Bethany, I guess it's ok that I use the Vit C serum every other 2days since it stays in the skin for 72hrs? Thanks! That'll save me money in the long run. Also, do u know how long I can keep a Vit C serum provided that I don't put it in the fridge?

BTW, what's the difference between elastin & collagen? Embarassed

free skin care · Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:59 pm

Stardustdy wrote:

So Bethany, I guess it's ok that I use the Vit C serum every other 2days since it stays in the skin for 72hrs? Thanks! That'll save me money in the long run. Also, do u know how long I can keep a Vit C serum provided that I don't put it in the fridge?

BTW, what's the difference between elastin & collagen? Embarassed

I am not the best person to ask about oxidation rates for ascorbic acid, since I typically use the oil-soluble versions. Hopefully SeptemberGirl can weigh in here for you.

Here is a very high level overview of collagen and elastin:

Quote:

The dermis is the middle layer of the skin located between the epidermis and subcutaneous tissue. It is the thickest of the skin layers and comprises a tight, sturdy mesh of collagen and elastrin fibers. Both collagen and elastin are critically important skin proteins: collagen is responsible for the structural support and elastin for the resilience of the skin. The key type of cells in the dermis is fibroblasts, which synthesize collagen, elastin and other structural molecules. The proper function of fibroblasts is highly important for overall skin health.

http://www.smartskincare.com/skinbiology/structure.html

free skin care · Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:23 am

Stardusty, the oxidation rate of vitamin C serums depends on which brand you use. I have found SkinMedica C Complex and CellularskinRX C+ to be the most stable of the ones I have been using. They remain clear for up to six months, perhaps longer. Vitamin C serum from other brands should normally be used within three months after opening.

Smile

free skin care · Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:22 am

I have heard/read that, as well about the C staying in the skin for 72 hours. I still feel the need to use a C daily, mostly for the added sun protection. My thought is to use the C daily and balance any elastin issues with Retin A nightly.

free skin care · Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:34 am

I'm very much a believer in Vitamin C and a retinoid as the linchpin of my skincare regime. The scientific studies out there on both are convincing, and for me, seeing the results confirms them.

Septembergirl makes a good point about stability being really key in a C serum, and the two she recommends in that regard seem to be particularly good in that regard. So is Vivier, but it's pretty expensive.

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