My 1 year dermaroll experience for acne scars (15 sessions)
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Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:28 pm

Dermaroller: 1.5mm
Sessions: 15
Timeframe: 1 year

Are there any people who have experienced ANY positive results from derma rolling for their acne scars?

Before I begin I want to emphasize that this post is solely about my dermarolling experience. Not the dermastamp or single needling. I am here to share my experience with the dermaroller.

Hi I'm a 26 year old male who has been dermarolling my acne scars for about 11 months. I have medium acne scars on my cheeks and temples. I'd say out of a scale of 1-10 , my acne scars are about a 5. I have been using a 1.5mm dermaroller using Vitamin C serum afterwards.

I would like to say I did a months worth of research before trying dermarolling rolling and was very optimistic about dermarolling rolling before i started. Now I have been dermarolling rolling on average once a month for about a year. (15 sessions) I must say I have seen little to no improvement. I look in the mirror and I still can't see any improvements or changes. I am a fairly aggressive roller and what i mean by that is that i put medium pressure enough to bleed the areas I roll.

I mean after a year and 15 sessions you'd think you will see some improvement. But in my experience I have seen little to ZERO improvement with my scars. I could be wrong but i am pretty certain I have caused further scarring by dermarolling rolling and I actually blame that on myself........ So.....15 sessions.. and nothing.... I am very disappointed with the dermaroller and yes in all honesty I feel like I have wasted a lot of my time. I have yet to see a single post on the internet of someone sharing any positive results from derma rolling acne scars. I am talking about people who have dermarolled for a year or more. But NOTHING. I have read nothing but negative feedback from people who have dermarolled a year or more.

This is from my own experience. For me, dermarolling does not work. It's not worth the time and effort. I have decided if I want to improve my scars, I am going to do it right and ask a specialist/professional expert with experience on how to improve my scars and go from there. The risks outweigh the benefits for me when it comes to dermarolling. There is no improvement in my scars and additional scarring caused by dermarolling on top of that.

(These aren't actual quotes)
"Derma rolling works for me! I rolled 2 times and my scars look better!!! "
"This is amazing! My scars are more shallow and my face has a nice glow!"

There are lot of comments like this out there on the internet where people claim or think they're seeing major improvements after a week but really they don't know anything. Inflammation makes your skin look more plump and scars more reduced but after a week or two your scars will "reappear" and your skin goes back to normal

I've been spending a year trying to find someone out there with long enough experience with DETAILED information about sharing their positive results from dermarolling for acne scars. I just cant find any. There are too many beginners and people who just want to believe. Eventually they give up quickly. Where are the people who have at least a year of experience who have seen positive results for their acne scars?

In conclusion, for me dermarolling does not work. I have rolled consistently and patiently for 1 year and have seen no results. I want to believe that dermarolling works, I really do. Even if I noticed the slightest improvement after all this time I would keep going! But the results are just not there. There is zero improvement. Unfortunately for me, dermarolling has made me become more obsessed and more self conscious about my scars. To me, it's not worth it at all. It's important that people see and read this post and hopefully this post will not get deleted.

Please if anyone with the experience and knowledge of dermarolling please speak up and tell me I am right or wrong!

Are there any people who have experienced ANY positive results from dermarolling for their acne scars?

free skin care · Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:20 am

Well that is a bummer. I personally had great results over a year+ and eliminated my crows feet, but I was not dealing with any acne scars. I can say that I did not have any skin tightening benefits, nor removal of hyperpigmentation nor neck rings. So rolling definitely does not fix everything, and results vary by person.

I also believe rolling protocol is very critical to success, and agree completely that most people just see inflammation and think it is working immediately.

So from a protocol standpoint....

Did you read clinical studies from the pros before beginning, and understand the proper protocol for timing and procedure?

Were your roller needles in a cross-linked pattern?

What other skin products were you using to promote collagen development?

Did you follow the recommendations to pretreat with Vit a and c for 3 weeks or more before beginning any rolling treatment?

Why did you go with 15 treatments in 12 months? That is more than recommended, and chronic (ongoing) inflammation results in collagen damage. You may have limited your results by overdoing it.

There was someone on the 302 thread who rolled acne scars for over a year and had great results...she now has a blog. I'll see if I can find it and perhaps you can contact her directly since she doesn't post here any more.

free skin care · Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:42 am

bethany wrote:

Why did you go with 15 treatments in 12 months? That is more than recommended, and chronic (ongoing) inflammation results in collagen damage. You may have limited your results by overdoing it.
.

This is the first thing I thought of.. why 15 treatments in 1 year? That is SUPER aggressive, too aggressive. You are not giving the collagen a chance to regenerate. My understanding is roll once every 6 weeks (other than product penetration rolls with very short needles).

Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:46 pm

I agree, way too often for a 1.5 mm.

Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:43 pm

Yeah i knew i was going to get comments on how 15 treatments in 12 months is way too much. It's really not. I didnt screw up my skin just because i rolled my face a couple more times than i should in a year. Big deal. Men have more durable skin anyway so it's not even a big deal to roll slightly more frequently.

free skin care · Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:55 pm

DermaBoy wrote:

Yeah i knew i was going to get comments on how 15 treatments in 12 months is way too much. It's really not. I didnt screw up my skin just because i rolled my face a couple more times than i should in a year. Big deal. Men have more durable skin anyway so it's not even a big deal to roll slightly more frequently.

Someone sounds a bit defensive.

Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:08 pm

Sorry but you are mistaken. It is too often. You probably should have taken a couple months off after your first 8 rolls, since you did those in a three month time span. That was a good FIVE rolls too many right there. Your skin needed time to heal. Ad then when starting up, do no more often than every six weeks.

I would not recommend rolling if you are not going to take researching the procedure seriously and don't post about your poor results if you are not really looking for honest input.

More is not always better and this is one of those cases!

Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:19 pm

Quote:

Sorry but you are mistaken. It is too often. You probably should have taken a couple months off after your first 8 rolls, since you did those in a three month time span. That was a good FIVE rolls too many right there. Your skin needed time to heal. Ad then when starting up, do no more often than every six weeks.

I would not recommend rolling if you are not going to take researching the procedure seriously and don't post about your poor results if you are not really looking for honest input.

More is not always better and this is one of those cases!

I think you guys are missing the point. FOrget the 15 treatments in 1 year being too frequent, which didn't screw anything up, because really that's really insignificant to the point i am trying to make. While you can give me the technical aspects of dermarolling and what not let's get down to whats real.

I've been spending a year trying to find someone out there with long enough experience with DETAILED information about sharing their positive results from dermarolling for acne scars. I just cant find any. Where are these people? I haven't seen or heard any testimonials on how dermarolling has improved their scars like it's advertised to do. Forums are just bloated with beginner questions like how to get started and what creams to use but no where do I find posts or documents of peoples success stories and details of their results who have dermarolled for at least a year. There are too many beginners and people who just want to believe. Eventually they give up quickly and the same cycle of new inexperienced people continues in these forums. Where are the people who have at least a year of experience who have seen positive results for their acne scars? This is NEVER ever brought up to mention and this needs to be addressed.

I could be wrong but it seems that I am one of the very very very few on these forums who have actually rolled at least a year with a dermaroller to even give you my experience. Dermarolling to me is a myth. Find these people who have successfully dermarolled acne scars with success and I will believe, other wise. Take it from me...I dermarolled for a year with ZERO results. How long have you rolled? Probably not that long. If so you would have definitely mentioned your experience.

Don't get me wrong i do appreciate your responses guys but 15 treatments in 1 year is very insignificant and not really helping answering my question which unfortunately not many people can answer...

Has anyone actually achieved results with a dermaroller? If so HOW long did it take you to acheive results?

free skin care · Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:38 pm

No - we are not missing the point. You talk about not getting results, but I don't see how you would given your rolling schedule. So therefore, the point is moot. For comparison, it is like someone complaining or confused that they did not get results with Retin-A because they used it twice a day.

I don;t have acne scars so I cant comment on that. I roll only for penetration now.

Anyway, this seems like a rehash of your posts on this thread.
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?p=6446690

Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:49 pm

You know what people, forget it. Like i said I will never get a straight answer from anyone who has had experience like i have. Obviously people like erg know what their talking about. Oh thanks for pointing out the rehash from 9 months ago. Thank you erg for helping us further understand dermarolling with your experience.

Quote:

"I don;t have acne scars so I cant comment on that. I roll only for penetration now." -erg

Product penetration lol...

This thread is dead.

free skin care · Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:22 pm

erg wrote:

No - we are not missing the point. You talk about not getting results, but I don't see how you would given your rolling schedule. So therefore, the point is moot. For comparison, it is like someone complaining or confused that they did not get results with Retin-A because they used it twice a day.

I don;t have acne scars so I cant comment on that. I roll only for penetration now.

Anyway, this seems like a rehash of your posts on this thread.
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?p=6446690

Wow....no wonder he is defensive. He received this advice ages ago, and obviously didn't follow it.

Firefox7275 wrote:

DermaBoy wrote:

Tonia where did you come up with this information? How do you know that rolling frequently will interrupt collagen rebuilding process? Believe me Tonia, the skin is tough. It's supposed to be. IT HAS TO BE. The next person that says "Ohhh Derma rolling frequently with a 1.5 mm is bad and will stop collagen production!!"...... Please explain why rolling frequently will interrupt the production of collagen and also do you have proof or experience of this?

I'm actually keeping a detailed record of my rolling experience which I will share once I have completed my derma rolling. I use a 1.5 mm roller and I roll once a week for my acne scars. I use a pretty good amount of pressure so there is definitely bleeding. However I am not rolling aggressively because I am rolling so frequently. I've rolled 6 times so far I am seeing little improvement. I read from experienced people that it takes at least 30 sessions to see results. I look at my scars through different shades of lights and mirrors from angles that you can only imagine. This means that I am paying close attention to my scars. I will keep everyone posted about my rolling experience.

This is insane. I've read this whole thread and not one single person can give a final conclusion about derma rolling for acne scars. NOT ONE PERSON can share us their experiences with derma rolling and the results they achieved. Why? Where are these people with successful results using the derma roller for their scars? Have any of you used the derma roller long and consistent enough to see results on acne scars? All i see is quitters and people who want to believe. It's not enough. Someone please share your results with us!

My you are a little charmer! Thriving and surviving are not one and the same. If you had bothered to research corneobiology and corneotherapy, the healing cascade, the role of low grade, chronic inflammation in skin ageing, other dermatological complaints (acne, dermatitis etc) and a whole host of degenerative medical conditions you would understand why frequent microneedling with a 1mm or 1.5mm is foolhardy.

To get you started
http://www.math.pitt.edu/~cbsg/Materials/Wound_Healing_Overview.pdf
http://www.abme.com.br/pdfs/Dermaroller/maxilofacial.pdf
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-2494.2011.00644.x/full
Those articles are fully referenced; following those up plus a literature search on Google Scholar and PubMed should keep you occupied for a couple of months.

DermaBoy wrote:

Thank you for your responses. After reading some of these responses I'm starting to lean towards taking a longer break between rolling sessions with a 1.5 mm roller.

I've been doing it once a week because I was too anxious to see results. I wasn't exactly sure if derma rolling worked so now that I know I am seeing improvement in my scars after 8 sessions in 3 months (which is quite a bit i know) I will definitely slow down the pace.

Crazy rollers take note...you do more harm than good by not understanding the proper protocol and overdoing it.

Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:59 am

Let me ask you something bethany...How long have you dermarolled and what needle length have you used for your scars? How bad were your acne scars? Have you ever even rolled for acne scars if you have any?

Bethany i respect your advice but if you don't have any experience with dermarolling for acne scars for at least a year or more than please refrain from commenting anymore. So far no one with any experience i'm referring to has said anything. What do you use dermarolling for? Product penetration? Yeah i thought so.

We need more people with EXPERIENCE for acne scars. I don't want any advice from anyone who doesn't have any experience with derma rolling for acne scars for at least a year or more.

If i see one more comment about my rolling too frequently which i haven't...Then i will never come back to this forum. Waste of time. And im sure you probably don't care. Which is fine. I am a very competent and intelligent person and im very aware that 15 rolls in 1 year is more than what's recommended. I know, I get it. So stop telling me something i already don't know, because that's not the reason why I havent seen any improvement. Insignificant. I have rolled for 1 year and you havent. Point made.

One more time....

Does anyone have any experience with dermaolling for acne scars for at least a year or more? If so, have you seen anymore improvements?

I dont want anymore answers from people like bethany and erg who probably use a 0.5 mm dermaroller for product penetration. Get that garbage out of here. Im talking about people with ACNE SCARS.

I apologize if i sound mean but seriously,

Thank you

-Dermaboy

free skin care · Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:29 am

Actually, I felt compelled to post because there is so much bad information out there about dermarolling. I did not want someone researching dermarolling to think that rolling with a 1.5 fifteen times a year is a good idea.

Members can post on whatever thread we feel like - you do not "own" this thread just because you started it. People come on EDS to learn and share, not to get "yelled at" through the written word as you have done.

**Anytime I see bad information that may lead someone astray I will post what I know so that they may be compelled to do more research.

Again, do what you want. My goal in posting was to help others. You clearly do not want help, opinions or advice. I hope that you may have peace and let go of some of this anger. Namaste.

free skin care · Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:52 am

DermaBoy wrote:

If i see one more comment about my rolling too frequently which i haven't...Then i will never come back to this forum.

You rolled too much.

Neither do I have scars nor do any rolling!

free skin care · Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:53 am

I just reviewed the instructions at owndoc:

http://dermaroller.owndoc.com/dermaroller-instructions.pdf

Interestingly, the recommendation for a 1.5mm is every 3-4 weeks. Which is 13-17 times a year. (note: this does not mean 8 times in 2 months and then every other month for the rest of the year).

Owndoc also indicates that males can roll more frequently.

This is on page 3.

There are multiple different recommendations out there. I think people need to watch their skin and it's reaction. If it constantly appears damaged, red and/or dry, you are rolling too often.

If there's no improvement, you need to try something else...I know, it's tough to hear after spending a year on something.

Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:14 am

You are very rude DermaBoy. Seriously, people try to help you and you act like a 13 year old.

Sarah at Owndoc suggested you work on your scars individually, with needles. I believe those who have had good luck with acne scars have taken this approach, and have given at least 6 weeks in between sessions. Why do you want to damage the very collagen you are building? It makes no sense, and your posts prove you have not done much reading on this topic.

You asked how long I have rolled. I have rolled three months. I don't need to overkill my rolls for a year and learn the hard way what NOT to do. I have done plenty of research, including reading the very very long threads here at EDS (from people who have taken the time to share, I thank them all), and every single link posted here to published medical research. I read for hours days weeks before starting. Learned from the advice, successes and mistakes of those before me who have been there.

Now you come along and you know best, yet you had no results after a year.

hmm

m...

free skin care · Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:39 am

DermaBoy wrote:

I dont want anymore answers from people like bethany and erg who probably use a 0.5 mm dermaroller for product penetration. Get that garbage out of here. Im talking about people with ACNE SCARS.

I apologize if i sound mean but seriously,

Thank you

-Dermaboy

Your manners could certainly use a bit of polishing.

For the record, I compiled a large list of dermarolling studies, protocol advice, required topicals, etc. in 2008. I researched needle length, frequency, and microinflammation, and focused on what the professionals were doing in the clinical studies with the best results. I even corresponded with the inventor of the dermaroller.

All was shared here at EDS, and those posts have also been shared repeatedly on many other forums over the years. I have even shared pictures of myself during rolls, like the one below.

Link to clinical studies with protocols (not just instructions from someone selling rollers):
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=29860

So please don't insult me with your "guesstimates" about my rolling knowledge and suggestion that I am just a silly penetration roller. Rolling Eyes

And penetration rolling has huge benefits for those that can tolerate it, so don't discount it so quickly.

I spent (wasted) some time in my very first post to you asking some questions to help refine why you might not have had the desired results...you didn't bother to answer any of them. So I am just going to assume that you did exactly what the vast majority of new rollers do, and that is not follow proper protocol.

You only have yourself to blame for your crappy results, and I am not going to waste any more of my time trying to help you.

Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:07 pm

Quote:

Bethany:

I also believe rolling protocol is very critical to success, and agree completely that most people just see inflammation and think it is working immediately.

So from a protocol standpoint....

Did you read clinical studies from the pros before beginning, and understand the proper protocol for timing and procedure?

Were your roller needles in a cross-linked pattern?

What other skin products were you using to promote collagen development?

Did you follow the recommendations to pretreat with Vit a and c for 3 weeks or more before beginning any rolling treatment?

Why did you go with 15 treatments in 12 months? That is more than recommended, and chronic (ongoing) inflammation results in collagen damage. You may have limited your results by overdoing it.

I was so caught up in the other posts i forgot to answer yours. Sorry.

I apologize for coming off mean but I think i was making a very important point and some of you who have answered my post were just glossing over it and instead criticizing me for my frequent treatments.

I have done research for a good month before going into dermarolling and i have read about clinical studies and about timing and procedure. I rolled thoroughly in a cross linked pattern. All i have used is Vitamin C serum before and after every rolling session. I did not do the Vitamin A and C pretreatment however.

The reason why i did 15 treatments in 12 months is because the instructions at owndoc informs that rolling 1.5mm every 3-4 weeks is okay. Which is what I have done. And yes i was impatient the first 3 months.

After 15 sessions and a year of dermarolling, one would expect to see some sort results or improvement. But there zero improvements. Also I find it odd there is very little documentation and posts out there, if any, of results and improvements from people like you and me.

If i noticed even the slightest improvement after a year, i would still keep rolling! But again, zero results.

I thank you for all your responses and sharing of knowledge.

free skin care · Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:09 pm

Collagen development requires both A and C, and A in high amounts is recommended for days after a roll. You should be using both a retinol and a C serum daily when doing a rolling regimen, especially when you are rolling frequently.

It is the roller itself that has a cross-linked pattern...it helps the needles to penetrate further, which is very important with acne scars to break up scar tissue.

I would recommend starting a Vit A and C regimen now, and avoid any rolling for a few months. Then consider using a 2mm dermastamp instead of a roller on key scars...the needles are much closer together and you may have more success.

Wait 6-8 weeks between treatments.

http://dermaroller.com/en/scar-treatment/derma-stamp

free skin care · Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:19 pm

I'm probably in the minority but I can sort of understand Dermaboy's point of view. Acne scarring and living and treating acne is a very emotive subject for those dealing with it. Maybe he didn't mean to come across that way.

We all (whatever our skin concerns) have had the experience of trying miraculous new treatments that have done nothing but empty our bank accounts. The disappointment for some can be hard to bear.

I'm still dealing with badly textured/scarred skin and used to be utterly obsessed and distressed by my acne (not so much of a problem now I've settled into a regimen that's working for me, and I assume, the oiliness and breaking out has calmed down as I've aged).

Even on acne.org, which I still read through, there is a lot of bad advice around Dermarolling. But I agree with the "less is more" approach. When you're dealing with something as esteem-sapping and upsetting as acne, you want to throw EVERYTHING at it (been there, too).

I'd advise you to keep trying, but to dial it down a bit, and be meticulous with the topicals. But also, I am of the thinking that Dermarolling/laser/intensive treatments just don't work for everyone. I'm at the stage where I think, maybe this is just how my skin is and will be...

As background, to try and turn my skin texture around I have had: Fractional CO2 (cost me nothing but a wad of cash), a one-time twelve day course of Efudix (probably not recommended!! as there's health concerns), Dermarolled with a 1.5mm four or five times (pretty bloody rolls too, spaced conservatively), TCA peels now and then and use Retin-A PM, Vitamin C AM when my skin can handle it. Also did the 30 days with the Palovia, no change apart from people asking me why my face looked so blotchy.

Maybe it's genetics, healing, not sure....

free skin care · Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:48 pm

ljk wrote:

Maybe it's genetics, healing, not sure....

I totally agree with you, which is why I said in my first reply that dermarolling is not all that it is said to be. It eliminated my crows feet, but I saw no benefits regarding neck rings, hyperpigmentation, forehead wrinkles, tightening, etc. And that is after being 100% meticulous about protocol.

I agree with DB that it does not work in all cases, but think (hope) that he may be more successful in the future if he changes his protocol up a bit. But I do wish that he had been less rude, insulting, and dramatic about how he corresponds with people...being mean and rude doesn't exactly want to make people help you.

Let's hope that we can put the drama behind us and focus on him getting some better results.

Dermaboy, have you thought about contacting Dr. Fernandes or Dr. Setterfield regarding some advice for your situation?

Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:27 pm

Quote:

Dermaboy, have you thought about contacting Dr. Fernandes or Dr. Setterfield regarding some advice for your situation?

Nope. My plan is to pretty much forget about my scars because my scars really not that bad at all...only I can see them under the worst light at the worse angle. No ever notices them anyway. It's all me. When I do have the money one day, I will pursue in seeing someone who is very experienced and a professional in dealing with scars. That's the best way.

Are there any people who have experienced ANY long term positive results from dermarolling for their acne scars?

It's been about 2-3 days since I posted this and still no one has been able to answer this question.

free skin care · Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:54 pm

DermaBoy wrote:

Quote:

Dermaboy, have you thought about contacting Dr. Fernandes or Dr. Setterfield regarding some advice for your situation?

Nope. My plan is to pretty much forget about my scars because my scars really not that bad at all...only I can see them under the worst light at the worse angle. No ever notices them anyway. It's all me. When I do have the money one day, I will pursue in seeing someone who is very experienced and a professional in dealing with scars. That's the best way.

Are there any people who have experienced ANY long term positive results from dermarolling for their acne scars?

It's been about 2-3 days since I posted this and still no one has been able to answer this question.

Boski (aka Nancy) from the 302 Skincare thread had great results with dermarolling and 302 for her acne scars. You can see her story at her blog, and her recommdations for needling.

https://theskincarerevolution.wordpress.com/2011/02/05/a-safe-and-sensible-approach-to-correcting-acne-scars/

https://theskincarerevolution.wordpress.com/2012/01/07/my-7-year-love-affair-with-302-skincare/

free skin care · Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:02 pm

I have had some success with needling and acne scars, but I have followed the protocol of waiting at least 6 weeks between treatments. I also use CPs on a daily basis as well as Retin A. I will occasionally use vitamin C (esp as part of a dermaroll treatment), but I feel I get better results w/ CPs, so I stick with them.

I don't have a lot of acne scars and that might be why I can focus on using single needles on the ones I do have. I actually really dislike rolling and needling, so I don't do it as often as I should. But I have seen quite a bit of success in filling in of a few deep scars. And I have been doing this on and off for more than a few years now. If I actually followed a closer schedule of every 6 weeks, I think my scars would be completely flat by now. As it is, a few of them are flat and a few others need more treatments. But I can owe the success to the single needling AND copper peptides (and, Retin A). I do believe that the skin needs the time between treatment to do it's thing in remodeling, so I prefer to let the CPs bathe the skin after needling and in between needling rather than constantly stress the skin out with assaults from the needle.

There are a few CP users on the Skin Bio forum that have had success with CPs on acne scars and go into great detail how they've done it. Research and read their posts to see how they've done it. Maxx is one who is a nurse and give very detailed posts on his experience.

I have seen scars fill in very slowly months after I've done a needling treatment on them. If you stop assualting your skin for a while and just baby it with decent products that create collagen like CPs, you might see some results still many months after you've stopped hitting it with the roller. Hopefully, you haven't done permenant damage to it.

free skin care · Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:13 pm

I would like to add that I highly respect bethany in that she researches her information to the deepest level and has been generous enough to share her knowledge with fellow EDSers. Her knowledge on the dermarolling protocol is nothing to sneeze at. And while she totes the vitamin A and vitamin C protocol with rolling (and that method should be taken very seriously), I suggest you look into CPs as well since they have been know to help remodel skin on their own and work very well on scar tissue.

If you have not had success after a year, something you are doing is not right. Many have offered suggestions. Take the knowledge being offered and use it. If you research properly and follow the advice, I'm sure you will see better results.

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