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Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:41 pm  |
Vitamin C Primer:
Vitamin C – the How and Why:
This post is manly a guide for those using Vitamin C products, to help you use them effectively. This is not really a DIY Recipe guide post. I think a DIY Vitamin C product can be made effectively, but it can be tricky, and would require a different type of post then the material covered here. 
I will touch on some DIY concerns, to help one judge effectiveness of homebrew products. However this is not exhaustive enough for a good understanding that would be needed. And I recommend additional research; I have added some links at the end of the document to assist DIY formulators. Though they are only the “tip of the iceberg”
Lots of good info out there on that subject, not covered here.
General Information
There are many forms of vitamin C. Vitamin C is an AHA Acid (Citric Acid) but also a well known anti-oxidant. There are many effective antioxidants, so Vit. C is not the only or best one. But it is a good one, especially when paired with others such as E.
Vitamin C is well known for its ability to effectively enable the skin to rebuild its collagen fibers.
The most common forms of C found in skin-care products are ascorbic acid, L-ascorbic acid, tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate, ascorbyl palmitate, ascorbyl phosphate, ascorbyl glucoside, retinyl ascorbate, ascorbyl stearate, sodium ascorbyl phosphate, and magnesium ascorbyl phosphate.
I will only address the most commonly used, and recommended versions in skincare lines here.
I will list some product links; these are simply for examples of effective product types for compression. Other products may work equally as well. This is just to help one understand the types available. I am not familiar with every brand on the market, so I am listing some I am familiar with as examples. This is not to say others are “bad” or good. Just an example of “some”
Vitamin C, How to buy it
For a Vitamin C product to be effective, percentage, formulation and pH are all a factor. If you buy a commercial product this info should be provided on the label, or in the marketing material. If a commercial product or manufacturer does not provide this info to you, suspect it is less then acceptable. Just because a product is costly, does not guarantee formulation is correct to provide an effective product. You need to investigate a bit, to be a wise consumer.
In general, all forms of Vitamin C or its derivatives should be stored in a cool dark place, in tightly closed small mouthed amber colored jars or opaque contains, with minimal air or light exposure. A large mouthed or clear jar are considered the least preferred packaging method. Pump bottles do let in air, so are also not a recommended package type.
A refrigerator is recommended for most forms except the Professional Solutions Triple C versions. This will maintain stability. Discard product immediately if yellow or yellowish brown, or amber tint appears. Do not use a discolored product on the skin. It can damage the skin.
Purchase clear or white products, without added dyes or yellow colorants so you can adequately see oxidative effects.
Make sure products are not close to, or past their expiration dates, before purchasing.
What It Does
Vitamin C is a very effective topical applied antioxidant, especially when combined with other antioxidants like Vitamin E. There are no good quality studies proving topical Vit C as a wrinkle treatment, or wrinkle preventative. There is a lot of anecdotal reports, and indirect research that indicate topically applied Vit C may improve the appearance of wrinkled skin in some people.
Vitamin C may improve the skin texture, soften fine lines and wrinkles, stimulate collagen growth, lighten freckles and dark pigmentation, repair and prevent photo damage, give skin a rosy glow.
Vitamin C produces positive results in about 50% of the clients. It may also help in slowing skin aging by reducing free radical damage. (this also means 50% have no positive results)
Oral Vitamin C, even in large doses, does not directly impact skins appearance dramatically, though it can help other activities that benefit the skin to work better. (Copper, MSM). 500 – 100 mg of Vitamin C daily is recommended for good skin health, as part of a well rounded diet and supplement program.
Excess Vitamin C in the diet is eliminated through the body’s waste processing system, so higher doses do not really effect the skin positively.
Topical (skin surface) applications deliver a higher concentration of Vitamin C to the skin surface, then one will receive from oral consumption.
This type of application will deliver 20 to 40 times more vitamin C directly to the target skin areas, vs. oral consumption.
Topical Vit C does not absorb or block UV radiation, but can enable the skin to better fight free radical damage from UV exposure. So it works as a good adjunct to a well formulated sunscreen for more effective protection. It is not a sunscreen replacement.
It is absorbed into the cell network and is not affected by swimming, bathing or makeup.
Vitamin C, used correctly can lessen erythema [redness] in skin resurfacing procedures, and can be a helpful addition or an alternative to Retin-A in the treatment of fine wrinkles, and a stimulant to wound healing.
Vitamin Cs antioxidant effects stay in the skin cells for at least 8 -12 hours, and possibly as long as 48-72 hours. Though cell concentration drop over that timeframe.
Topical applications of Vit C must be highly concentrated for best treatment level results; trace amounts will not dramatically impact the skin.
Vitamin C and Stability
Vitamin C has stability issues, making it difficult to work with. Light, heat, metals, humidity, oxygen will all degrade Vit C quickly. Vitamin C is not as stable in water. DIY (Do-It-Yourself) formulations will be more stable with less water content.
Vit C Formulations should not use tap water or plant extracts, because even trace metal ions (often present in plants) when combined with Vitamin C, can be Pro-oxidative to the skin. (cause increase free radical or oxidation damage)
Vitamin C oxidizes easily. Oxidized Vit C applied to the skin can increase Free Radical formation on the skin, creating oxidative damage on the skin surface.
Stabilized versions of Vitamin C degrade slower, however they tend to be very costly, and this only partially limits oxidation.
Because Vitamin C degrades in the presence of UV light, it is often recommended that a “Treatment” product be used in the PM for this reason. However Vit C does absorb into the skin quickly, if you will not be exposed to UV for 15 minutes or so after application, then AM applications are acceptable. This also allows you to benefit most for the Anti-oxitive effects when you will be most exposed to UV damage.
If you are only using C for the anti-oxidative effects (such as how its utilized in many lotions and sunscreens, with low Vit C percentages) then you can apply in the AM, and go outdoors within a few minutes. This would not be for “treatment” level usage, but will provide very good anti-oxidant activity.
Vitamin C sinks into the skin fairly quickly, within 10 to 15 minutes (depending on formulation) and cannot be removed from the cellular layer through normal daily functions such as washing, rubbing or towel drying.
This makes it a wonderful addition to daily sunscreen usage.
Ascorbic acid
Natural ascorbic acid, from plants and fruits is L-ascorbic acid.
Synthetic Ascorbic acid, created in a lab contains two forms; L-ascorbic acid, and D-ascorbic acid. 50/50 ratios of each.
Only L-ascorbic acid is bio-available (usable) to the skin and tissues. D-ascorbic acid is useless in topical application or oral ingestion. It is not harmful in oral vitamin supplements; however it is commonly believed the body discards the D portion, as unneeded.
Cosmetic preparations can include ether natural or synthetic version, either L-ascorbic acid, or the combo of L-ascorbic acid and D-ascorbic acid. If a cream has 10% Ascorbic acid, in the standard Ascorbic form – you will actually only have 5% L and 5% D.
Only 5% actual useable vit C in your product.
Vitamin Supplement powders are generally a combination product, or both L and D ascorbic acid, unless they state “L-ascorbic acid” on the label. There are exceptions such as NOW brand vitamin brand Ascorbic acid powder, which I have been told is 100% L-ascorbic acid.
Special order L only version powders are available online from a variety of sources.
Vitamin supplement tablets and capsules usually contain the combo version of ascorbic acid, along with fillers, binders and other additives making them unsuited to DIY topical formulation. These can make up as much as 25% of the overall pill formulation. This will alter actual usable amounts of Vit C in the supplement.
In fruit, such as an orange, the Vit C is primarily the L form. It stays in the L form as long as it “stays” within the Orange and its tissues. Once juice is squeezed from the fruit, after a few days of storage, some of the L-ascorbic changes to the D-ascorbic form, and eventually balances out to 50%L and 50% D Vitamin C content. So vitamin C levels drop to half, in stored juice verses freshly squeezed juice. Frozen concentrate juice, once thawed and water added, also “degrades” into the same action.
L-ascorbic Acid: (Cellex-C, SkinCeuticals, Professional Solutions)
This is the most potent form, and most bio-available to the skin. (bio-available, = most easily usable, and best penetrating)
Many studies, with good peer review material support this benefit and activity.
L-Ascorbic Acid is an effective anti-oxidant, photo protectrant, skin lightener, effective collagen rebuilder, repairs skin barrier, anti-inflamatory, in correct percentages and pH.
It is unstable in high water formulas.
Most effective at lower pH below 3.5, and higher concentration about 10%-20%.
Levels over 20% do not provide a noticeable positive benefit in most cases, but do increase irritation.. Higher strength products can be used as an effective “mid level” peel strength product. Most people will notice some tingling when this product is first used.
Generally recommended for use only once a day, because of irritation potential. However many “benefit studies” were done with twice daily applications at maximum levels.
Some well formulated vit C products are available around 2% Vit C which creates a milder exfoliating effect, This can be beneficial for rough, and dull skin types. This will not rebuild collagen.
Skins types with hyper pigmentation or melasma conditions can worsen from to much exfoliation, so may prefer to avoid this form of Vit C.
Can be irritating at this level, not suited for sensitive skin types.
Reducing product levels of vit C to 3- 5%, and pH to 5 will provide a product better suited to sensitive skin, but with less dramatic benefits. This version can degrade in about 2 weeks, especially if it has a high water content.
But a good formulation, stored and packaged correctly can last for 6 months or more.
Blending magnesium sulfate with L-ascorbic acid can make this form of vitamin C stable much longer without acidic pH concerns (see blended product info below)
Some commercial products come in a buffered version, which “softens” the acidity, by raising the pH, making it better tolerated by sensitive skin. But this can also limit absorption, which is directly related to acidity, so the product may not be as effective. This is better tolerated by sensitive skin.
For those sensitive to Vitamin C, rather then use a buffered version; go with one of the non-irritating derivatives below. You are likely to have a more effective product without the irritation.
”Cliffs Notes Version”
L-ascorbic is very sensitive to metals and minerals, temperature, oxygen, and light. Becomes unstable faster in a water base. Highly effective for Collagen synthesis.
Good for dull, thick, rough or wrinkled skin. Not well suited to acne prone skin, as irritation can contribute to breakouts. Can be difficult on sensitive skin types.
Unbuffered homemade versions are generally stable for 4 weeks or more. (depending on formula, packaging, storage) Well formulated and packaged and stored correctly can last 6 months or more.
Application order is very pH dependant.
Vitamin C Derivatives:
These are compounds created by chemically, by modifying the Vitamin C molecule. Often called “Vitamin C” also. Derivatives tend to be less expensive, more stable, and less irritating. Some feel these are more effective, more bio-available, or equally effective to the L-ascorbic acid. Others feel they are nothing more the marketing “hype”. There are far less studies available on these variants and blends “Proving” their effectiveness compared to L-ascorbic acid. But anecdotal reports do seem to support their effectiveness in some users.
Ascorbyl Palmate:
Less irritating, and more stable then Vitamin C (L-ascorbic acid) Fat soluble. Considered Non-acidic. Very good antioxidant. Mildly effective for collagen synthesis unless large amounts are used. Difficult to formulate in high percentages. Good for sensitive skin types. Good on acne prone skin. Good formulations are stable for 6 months.
Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate:
Non irritating. Very good Collagen synthesis and some studies indicate it is comparable to Vit C at lower concentrations. Very good anti-oxitive effects.
One study shows it may assist in skin lightening. The study concluded that a moisturizer with a 10% concentration of magnesium ascorbyl phosphate "suppressed melanin formation…. The lightening effect was significant in 19 of 34 patients with chloasma or senile freckles and in 3 of 25 patients with normal skin."
Good for, normal, sensitive and pigmented problem skin types. Can be used on acne prone skin, but can aggravate breakouts at first. This should subside after a few weeks.
Less exfoliate activity compared to L-ascorbic acid, so better suited to melasma and hyperpigmentation issues.
May be combined with L-ascorbic acid in the formulation to create a more stable and effective product at a lower total Vit C percentage.
Not effective below 3%. Optimal concentration is 5% for best collagen development. 3%- 5% provides photo protection and some skin lightening.
10% levels can lighten skin best, but few products contain this amount. Stable for 6 months or more.
Ascorbyl Tetraisopalmite:
Non irritating, very stable. Early studies seem to indicate that this derivative may produce equal or better collagen synthesis then Vitamin C (L-Ascorbic Acid). Fat soluble, anti-oxidant. Studies are still quite new and limited on this product. Few commercial formulas use it. Optimal concentration seems to be about 3%. Good for sensitive skin, acne prone or pigment problem skin types. Stable for 1 year to 18 months.
Vtamin C Combo Products (Professional Solutions or Diana Yvonne’s Triple C)
These are usually a combo of the Vitamin C (L-ascorbic) and its derivatives. This are promoted to give the benefits of all forms with less irritation, more stability, and less pH sensitivity.
Non irritating. Creates rosy glow effect. May aid in hyper pigmentation lightening and UV damage repair.
Some studies indicate it may help in collagen rebuilding. (Limited to in vitro studies)
Often well suited to all skin types.
Stable at room temperatures, should NOT be refrigerated.
Staple for 3-6 months. This is a 7 pH product, so not pH dependant during application.
Application order and wait times
L-ascorbic acid forms of vitamin C are very pH dependant and affected by skin ph, or pH of other products layered with them.
All vitamin C products work best if applied to clean skin, before any other product. Though It may be applied after AHA or BHA if the formulas and pH will not affect activity or absorption.
Vitamin C absorbs faster into the skin then other exfoliate acids (such as BHA and AHA) since it absorbs faster, you can generally limit your wait time to 10 – 15 minutes. Because it does absorb so fast, it is not normally used as an exfoliate, though it does have some exfoliate activity. If used as a “Pro” level exfoliate, strength and timing are adjusted.
For collagen rebuilding benefits, and other treatment effects, you should always use the wait time, before layering other products.
To use it for its anti-oxidant activity only, pH is not a concern, so wait time is not an issue. Just be aware, you will not utilize the other Vit C benefits when used in this manner.
Not all Vitamin C products have a low pH, some forms of Vitamin C or Vitamin C blends often have a higher pH, so less pH issues concerning layers. You do still use the pH issue as a guide, but the pH levels of your C may be higher then your AHA or BHA products. Wait times still apply.
If using a low pH form of vitamin C, you will need to know the pH of the C product and your other products. You may find you can combine the exfoliates in one step(your BHA or AHA) with your Vit C layers, so creating less wait times. This of course is formula and pH dependant.
The exfoliates (AHA and BHA) work best on clean skin, so they go first if possible
(My previous post on pH and Wait Times for treatment products and acids
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=18360 )
Application Suggestions:
This is only if you apply your exfoliates and Vitamin C in the same session. You do not need to. You can easily apply one in the AM and one in the PM. Or one on one day, and the alternate on another.
But you will still need the appropriate wait time after each product, before applying the next later step. (30 minutes for acids, 10 minutes or so for Vitamin C)
If AHA, BHA are equal or lower pH then my Vit C product:
If you are using three pH dependant products, that are all a similar thickness formula and pH.
-Professional Solutions 10% Lactic AHA liquid at 1.9 pH, http://www.dianayvonne.com/product/CSE70_4
-5% BHA Salicylic liquid at 1.9 pH
http://www.dianayvonne.com/product/CSE69_4
-and Vitamin C 10% liquid at 2.3 pH.
http://www.dianayvonne.com/product/CSP95
(Remember low to high pH, and thin to thick formulations, Exfoliate first)
Apply your BHA first. (Because it is oil/lip soluble – so penetrates the pore best)
Then immediately apply your AHA liquid (same pH as BHA so will not alter it, but does not penetrate oils as BHA does)
Wait 20 minutes to allow these two products to exfoliate the skin.
Then apply your 2.3 pH Vitamin C liquid and let it work for 10 minutes.
Because its pH is still fairly acidic it will not hinder the other pH dependant product. Because it is higher pH it is applied after.
This is also applied near the end of the entire exfoliation cycle (of 30 minutes) so your AHA still works strongly at 20 minutes before pH is dropped some from the Vitamin C.
And all three have a light liquid/serum base, which will not hamper absorption. You can get all three benefits with one wait time of 30 minutes.
If you have a AHA/BHA combo liquid like the I Feel Pretty “Pretty Amazing Plus” – which has a pH of 2.0, you can do the same thing.
http://www.ifeelprettyproducts.com/exfoliants.htm
Apply your BHA/AHA first, wait 20 minutes. (this is a thin water like liquid, so no penetration/thickness issues)
Then, after 20 minutes, apply your Vitamin C product with a 2.0 -2.3 pH. (this can be liquid, gel, serum or cream, because it is applied AFER the thinner AHA/BHA)
Apply other treatments if Vit C thickness will not hamper them.
What if my Vit C is a much higher pH then my acids?
If you are using a high pH Vitamin C product like the Triple C from Professional Solutions @ 7.0 pH, http://www.dianayvonne.com/product/CSP99
you will use the exact same application as above. But leave BHA and AHA on 30 minutes before adding the Vitamin C. Then Leave Vitamin C on for 10 minutes, Then apply other products. This is because the 7.0 pH of your Vit C, is high enough to change the pH of your acids already on the skin. This would neutralize them, making them less effective.
What if my Vit C is lower pH then my acids?
If you AHA or BHA is a higher pH, like:
-Skin Biology Exfol Serum or cream@ 3.2 pH
http://www.dianayvonne.com/product/SB86_1
-Paula’s Choice AHA 8% @ 3.5 pH
http://www.cosmeticscop.com/shop/product.asp?CODE=PC190&PAGETYPE=S
-Paula’s Choice 2% BHA @ 3.2 PH
http://www.cosmeticscop.com/shop/product.asp?CODE=PC201&PAGETYPE=S
-Skin Biology 10% LacSal lotion @ pH of 4.0
https://store.skinbiology.com/catalog/index.cfm?fuseaction=product&theParentId=125&id=768
These are all higher then your Vitamin C product. (Assuming you use L-ascorbic at 2.3 pH or so) So if you apply them FIRST, the higher pH can hamper your Vitamin C.
So you apply your Vitamin C first for 10 -15 minutes, then top with your AHA and BHA products, allowing all layers a 30 minutes wit time before adding other treatments.
No rinsing is needed before adding other treatments, though you may rinse if you choose.
Other activities are applied based on product thickness. (if no pH concerns exist)
Remember if your Vitamin C in this example were a cream or lotion, it cannot be applied before your AHA or BHA, even with a lower pH. Because a cream or lotion will hamper the penetration of the BHA thinner formulation. (Gel, serum, liquid)
If your Vit C is a light lotion, and your exfoliate is also a lotion, you can then apply your AHA or BHA after the Vit C, (based on pH) because the lotions can penetrate through the lower lotion base. (generally- though some thicker creams and lotions can be an issue with penetration)
Because of the thin to thick issue, Exfoliates, and Vitamin C tend to be better formulated in thin products, such as liquids, serums, and gels.
This allows you to easily layer other products OVER them without washing between steps.
Exfoliates work best when applied to clean skin. Because Vitamin C is generally acidic, it also works best when applied before other treatments, as its acid nature can remove other product.
If you will not apply anything after your Vit C, thickness and pH are less of an issue.
Remember the thin to thick rule. Thin products before thick ones, so all can absorb effectively
-Cleanser (may need to wait before exfoliate, if pH is a concern)
(optional pH adjusting product could be used here, after cleansing - before acid)
-Exfoliate (usually requires a wait time)
-Toner (Liquid water like products, such as toner/treatment solutions, liquid DMAE)
-Serum (Copper Serum, treatment Serums, DMAE thicker products)
-Gel (DMAE, deffrin)
-Oils (Emu, Jojoba, Almond, etc)
-Creams
-Sunscreen
-Foundations
Also keep in mind creams and lotions tend to be more complex overall. This can lessen their ability to penetrate as well. The more ingredients in a product, the more one should be concerned with potential sensitivities, clogged pores and other issues. Simpler products tend to be easier to evaluate, because of the lower ingredients used.
Other “proven” Collagen rebuilding options include Tretinoin, Copper Peptides, and High strength low pH AHA acids.
What if I have a High pH acid, and a low pH acid and Vitamin C?
Same steps as above examples, and sandwiching the Vitamin C as appropriate using the method low pH to high. Assuming all “thicknesses” will work together. If they will not you may need to more some products to alternate sessions (AM or PM) or days.
Using Copper Peptides With Vitamin C?
Using Copper Peptides in conjunction with your vitamin C will not harm your skin, or your Copper Peptides. But the Copper in your product can cause your vitamin C to become ineffective if applied in the same session.
For best results of both actives, you should apply your vitamin C products roughly 12 hours apart from your Copper products.
Some people do apply them together, or with only a 30 minute wait time between products, and receive benefits from both. But most experts agree, you will get more benefit with a 12 hours window between applications.
Other Recommended Reading on Vitamin C.
Make Your Own Effective Cosmetic Treatments, by Carol Demas
http://www.cafepress.com/buy/Make%20your%20own%20effective%20cosmetic%20treatments/-/pv_design_prod/p_storeid.30393410/pNo_30393410/id_8562896/opt_/pg_/c_/fpt_
(excellent info for the DIY)
Skin Rejuvination InfoPack and
The Do It Yourself Anti-Aging Skin Care Infopack
http://www.smartskincare.com/infopacks/
(more great info for the DIY)
From Paula Begoun, on Vit C
http://www.paulaschoice.com/learn/art.asp?ID=383
DermaDoc (see Articles Section at Bottom)
http://www.dermadoctor.com/supersearchresults.asp?WID=%7B61015C38%2D4F54%2D45F4%2D89DE%2D512840007A7A%7D
My previous post on pH and Wait Times for treatment products and acids
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=18360 |
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Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:22 pm |
This is sooooo helpful. Your writing skills are excellent and it all sounds so clear and informed. I appreciate so much the knowledge you have offered to this board.
And are you good at typing?? Sometimes I'm amazed at the length of people's posts. I just taught myself to type a year ago. I also use voice-to-text recognition but I would feel so silly if someone overheard me dictating a post for this board.
Michele |
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Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:43 pm |
| Awesome primer, Tangal. Thank you! |
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:12 am |
Amazing info. I'm on my way in searching a Vit. C and your ingo surely become my most useful reference. Thx~~  |
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:36 am |
I have read all your posts on pH levels but I still have not understood why you start with low Ph and then go to high pH.
You are saying low pH to high pH and thin to thick. So if you had DMAE at pH of 10 and a retinol product in a cream consistency, which comes first? The retinol would be a lower pH but being a cream would come after a DMAE gel or liquid. This reverses the pH. |
_________________
Skin: Over 60, ex combination now sensitive, Cellcosmet |
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:05 am |
I save many topics by Tangal.
Thank you Tangal! |
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:30 am |
Working on your reply Bushy. 
I don't type super fast, but tyype all day long in relation to my job.
I actually work in consultion with companys and consumers, oin the Skincare area - and am a consultant and Mod on another busy messageboard - so clarity helps.
I used to do alot of teaching in the computer field, so simplicity also helps. LOL |
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Illit
New Member
 
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 3
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:15 am |
Tangal,thank you for your valuable information.I have many skin problems and this is the first time that I understand clearly what to do to improve my condition(I am 45 and I live in a humid ,stressful place).Please continue and share with us your large knowledge as it is very welcome.
Illit |
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:19 am |
| Quote: |
I have read all your posts on pH levels but I still have not understood why you start with low Ph and then go to high pH.
You are saying low pH to high pH and thin to thick. So if you had DMAE at pH of 10 and a retinol product in a cream consistency, which comes first? The retinol would be a lower pH but being a cream would come after a DMAE gel or liquid. This reverses the pH. |
The reason you go low to high is because skin and product pH can shift up fairly easily. Much harder to shift down. Skin is acidic, so that’s a natural state. Once it gets past neutral, (7.0) it gets harder for the skin to “shift” back down quickly. It will still do it, but normally takes longer, and is less efficient, which can make your lower pH product ineffective. (if applied on a high pH surface)
pH above 8.0 Is more stressful on the skin and more irritating. Products with a pH higher then 7.0 must struggle harder to penetrate the skin as well. So a lower pH is often a “deeper” penetrating product.
Low pH acids, work best at that low pH. They are very sensitive to even a slight change, which can make them less potent, and lessen penetration dramatically. When spending extra for these products, you want the most “bang for your buck”. So they always go on clean skin, with a neutral pH (70) or lower (5,5). If you acid is a 3,5, applying it to 7.0 skin is not so much of an issue, Not great, but not horrid. (Effectiveness is impacted, but impact may be less dramatic)
But if you acid is 1.9 applying it to 7.0 skin, means you will certainly loss some of your acids effectiveness, because it now will take part of its 30 minute wait time pulling the pH down first. When its effectiveness is lessened. And it probably will not bring the skin down to the low level it should be of 1.9 pH. (for this product type and pH)
Think of it like when you paint with color paints and one paint brush. You start with white paint, then do yellow, then red, then green, with black being last. Because if you START with black, it is almost impossible to use white next. You can wash and wash, but its hard. No matter how well you clean your brush, you tend to have a few bits of black paint left, that “muddys” the white, making it “less white” or less pure. (unless you start all over with a solvent to clean/strip brush)
pH is similar. When shifting from low to high, the skin, and low pH products can easily transition from one level to the next pretty easily. But taking a high pH product of 10 pH for example, and then trying to make the skin go from 10 to 3 quickly. Its harder to do, and the skin is less able to do it effectively. So though it will shift down some, it is rarely able to shift low easily or quickly. Of course you can add a mid range lower pH product in there to help. Like a 5.0 toner something.
But that’s another step, and may still deactivate you products (Like Amine DMAE) that apparently seems to need that higher pH to work optimally on the skin.
All Retin A package inserts for Rx level Retin A and Retinols recommend it be used on clean skin for optimal results. This is to allow best penetration and in the case of Retinols, best conversion. If you are using a thin. clean, acid product (one without thickeners, film formers and other ingredients that coat or effect skin) that acid can go under the Retin A, because it should not hamper penetration.
Many people do find acids and Retin A or Retinols on the same night can be to irritating. (Retinoids do cause irritation and skin barrier issues, making your more sensitive for a few days) So you need to use best judgment based on how your skin reacts. If you are getting dry and flakey – then wait a night or two between RA and acids.
Retinols, Retinoids, Green Cream,Vitamin A products:
Retinols and Retinoids have a 20 to 30 to 60 minute wait after application to allow them to convert to Retinoic Acid. (the actual process takes closer to 2 hours, an hour wait is the best, if do-able. But most find a 30 min wait is more easy to accomplish realistically) Changing pH at this time can effect that conversion process.
Tretinoin, Retin A, Renova (Rx retinoids) are already in that form. So wait time is shorter – 10 to 15 minutes or so to allow absorption. No conversion needed
Once pH goes over 6.0 with any of these products, conversion process, and binding to skin tissues stops. These products are all formulated at 6.0 - 7.0 pH.
DMAE:
Should be used after acids and cleansing, because of pH, and the fact that your acids work best on clean skin. Formulation type can dictate placement. Liquids, gels and serums can be applied before serums, lotions and creams. (after your acids) Lotion and cream DMAE should be applied after serums and creams. Wait time of 10 minutes to allow product to absorb for Bitrate lower pH versions.
If it is an alkaline DMAE as some of the Amine forms are, then a wait time of 20-30 minutes is recommended so as not to effect the DMAE, and allow skin pH to adjust some. (Assuming your moisturizer oils or next step product is a lower pH – which it should be, and probably is)
If your Retin A is a lower pH AND a lotion or Cream, like Renova – and your DMAE a thinner product (liquid, gel or serum - not a lotion or cream), with a high pH - then yes you are in a pinch. This is why picking products in correct formulation comes in.
Some tricks to work with DMAE and Retin A
Either opt for a thinner Retin A, like Rein A gel for example, and a equal or thicker product DMAE so penetration is not an issue.
Pick a lower pH form of DMAE, such as a Bitrate form instead of an Amine. Which does work equally well for many people. Not all people respond to DMAE, and some do find one form or the other works best for them. But there are many happy users of both forms.
Wipe Retin A lotion off skin after 30 minutes, then apply DMAE and hope it penetrates somewhat well. (Not the best solution I admit, because the DMAE probably will be limited to an extend, and the Retin A, will loss some of its effective action . But most of the Retin A will have been supplied into the skin after 20 to 30 minutes. So most of your effect is there.
Or apply DMAE first, and hope it does not effect your Retin A much. (it will probably effect it though).
If you have used Retin A for a year or two successfully, often you can drop treatment down to every otherday or every third day and still maintain your good results.
Or alter application times, DMAE in AM, Retin A in PM. OR DMAE only on spot treatment areas like under eyes, Retin A everywhere else.
Sometimes you just need to pick and choose which products are more important to you and focus on their use only. Then at a later date switch out what you are using. |
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:32 am |
| Tangal, I'm so glad that you have decided to join in our discussions! I'm going to start printing out you postings. You obviously take a lot of time with them and I really appreciate it. |
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:39 am |
Thank you so much for all this info, Tangal.
I have a stupid question - will my ACV toner affect the pH of Vit C serum. Do I have to counnteract for this? |
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:58 am |
I don't know what your ACV toner water blend mix ratio is - or your pH level. This could be a facter in your use.
So the best answer is to test your product first. This tells you exactly what you are dealing with.
But keeping that in mind. Apple Cider Vinegar is acid around 2.0. So straight ACV is 2.0. (which I hope you are not useing on your skin)
The more you dilute that, the more your pH will alter. A 50% ACV water product, is probably still on the low end of pH. But without an actual "test" we can't know for sure if its 3pH, or 2 pH.
If your Vitamin C is 2 pH - and you ACV is 3 pH, then yes, its a possible issue.
But if your Vitamin C is 7 pH, then you ACV is unlikely to be anywhere near that high - so not an issue. |
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:01 am |
The only stupid questions are the ones you never ask.
Better to ask, and know - then not ask and be confused. Or worse keep useing a product wrong.
None of us knows everything, we all have a gazillon unknown questions/answers. We all start somewhere.
Just because some may have more knowldge in a field then you do - does not make you stupid. Just uneducated in that area.
But you can learn. Then you become educated also.
We ALL have areas we are weak in - thats fine. None of us know it all. Just don't ask me about algebra and alls good! LOL |
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:04 am |
| Thanks Tangal, you're very kind. I'm going to get some pH sticks then! |
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:58 am |
Tangal,
Thanks for the information here. Sooo helpful.
I have two questions:
1. I use a c serum by Remede that lists its core formula as Ascorbyl Methylsilanol Pectinate (25%). Do you know anything about this C derivative and its effectiveness?
2. This serum was a medium-yellow color from the first time I opened it. It's in a white opaque glass bottle. Do you think this is normal for this product, or could it be that it had started to oxidize before I even opened it? |
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:42 am |
I have been doing it wrong... go figure 
I use the exfol first, at 3.2ph level, then the 15 percent mandelic at 2.5ph level. Probably should switch them around. 
Thanks Tangal for all this information. It makes it much easier for me to understand. |
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:44 am |
| yes you should switch or get a lower pH BHA. |
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:46 am |
persephone
Let me check a few things and I will get back with you. |
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:52 am |
| In your opinion Tangal, what way would it be better off. To switch and apply mandelic first, than exfol, or get a different bha and apply bha first, then mandelic. I mean, it kind of makes sense to apply the bha first dosen't it? I don't mind if I have to switch,bha's, that is. I'm not lettin go of the mandelic ) I just want them to be as effective as possible. |
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:53 am |
From Paulas Choice Ingrediants Defnitions:
ascorbyl methylsilanol pectinate. Form of vitamin C that is considered stable and functions as an antioxidant and thickening agent.
From another definition site:
Ascorbyl Methylsilanol Pectinate
A compound of ingredients derived from Ascorbic Acid, Silicone, and fruit pectins, and is a viscosity builder and an antioxidant. Derived from sources such as apples, pears, and beet root, it provides a gelatinous texture to
products.
Looks to me this is nothing more then an anti-oxidant. I will double check a few more things for your. But really I don't think this has many "treatment" benifits.
Yellow is a bad sign. Look at the ingrediants and see if dyes or colorants are added to the product. Some brands tint Vit C products yellow.
In which case it may be fine. |
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:55 am |
| razinkane, Mandelic acid does have some oil penitration ability, If you are also useing a BHA as well - this is probably just fine. |
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:15 am |
so far I have no found and studies or real info that shows Ascorbyl Methylsilanol Pectinate is more then an antioxidant and a thickener.
Lots of "Claims" but no data anywhere to support it.
I have a few other things to check still. |
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:57 am |
| Just confirming, I am still unable to find any real info supporting claims that Ascorbyl Methylsilanol Pectinate works as more then an antioxidant ingrediant. Which is fine, but not a Vitamin C "treatment" product, IMO. |
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:38 pm |
| Hi Tangal, thanks for this info. I have used Skinceuticals C&E which had gone brown. It was before I found this forum, and I didn't realise it was harmful. What damage am I likely to see on my skin, and is there anything I can do to rectify it? I used it daily for about about 6/8 weeks. |
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:35 pm |
Just oxidant type damage. This is the same damage you get from day to day stress, pollutants, poor life style habits,etc. Its a form of free radical damage at the cellular level. One of the causes of aged skin appearance is related to free radical damage. Which can cause tissues and cells to break down faster, including support structures (Collagen, Elastin)
It is unlikely you did anything permanent to you skin in that short a time, So don’t panic. Long term continual free radical damage, day in and day out is not good. But you will normally receive a certain amount just by living and breathing and functioning in life. That’s fine. You just don't want to add to it, and mitigate what you can. Simply start to use anti oxidants on your skin, use mild skin care products, to help lessen other damage issue. Of course healing activities that you can add in to your treatment to help skin function its best are always good. (Copper, Biological oils, other treatments) |
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