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Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:55 pm  |
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Hiya Ocean! Thanks once again for your comprehensive and informative reply, how do you know all this stuff??! I do appreciate the time you are willing to take responding to my questions, its one thing having all this knowledge but its another to have the generosity to actually share it. Thank you
So I am definitely starting retin-a, just waiting for my sis to get back with the tubes. I am a little nervous since I have never used anything like this before, and it seems you have to be extra careful with sunscreen. But I do use the LRP fluide extreme everyday, even though I am not really out in the sun, just home to work and back again. I have had to stop using olay definity in the morning under the sunscreen as both those products just do not go together. I am left with a horrible white cast which balls up if I try to rub it in.
I would be most interested in what retin-a can do for my skintone. Its not very visible but I can see that my skin is quite ‘patchy’ with a very slight darker tone on my chin area than my cheeks. I also have about 3 very small freckles on my right cheek which I am sure are caused by the sun as I didn’t have them before. I do occasionally get the odd spot, though since starting my skin care regime I seem to have a got few more than usual, I don’t know whether they are caused by the CE ferulic or emu oil, as I started them both together. I will just give my skin some time to get used to it all.
Luckily, mostly due to good genes, I don’t have any wrinkles or lines that I can see. Hopefully retin-a would help to keep my skin that way!
I find it intriguing that most women in the US/Canada have their own dermatologist to seek advice from that is unheard of in the UK. I’m so jealous!
So I will start with the 0.25 tretinoin as you have recommended and see how it all goes. Yes my skin is dry, so I will use a moisturiser with the tretinoin at night, but wait before applying the moisturiser as suggested. I will start with every other day and then see if I can build it upto everyday. My skin is not too sensitive so it should be ok. Am I right in thinking I should continue with my normal moisturiser on the other nights?
We are just coming up to the summer holiday time in the UK, so I will be off work for 6 weeks, this will be the best time to start retin a for me so if I do get a harsh reaction at least I wont be at work!
You have recommended Cerave and Atopalm as barrier moisturisers. They are very reasonably priced, at least in the US online stores, so that’s great! I will order those. Are they ok to use in the morning as well as evening? At the moment I am using the c serum, wait, then emu oil and this moisturiser from a store called Aldi:
http://www.aldi.co.uk/uk/html/product_range/2744_5146.htm
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/consumer/savingideas/article.html?in_article_id=430022&in_page_id=512
It works well with the LRP. Even with the emu oil and moisturiser and LRP my skin does not feel too oily!! The emu oil on its own isn’t moisturising enough, my skin still feels tight, which is why I started using the moisturiser on top. I would ideally like to minimise the number of layers in the morning, so I could cut out the emu oil and use it in the evening instead? Definity is easily available in the UK, though more expensive, so I will continue with that too, but it would have to be in the evening.
Are there any good, effective cleansers/toners you would recommend? I am coming to end of my decleor and ddf bottles, and I bought the Neutrogena deep clean to replace those for the time being. But I could order a better cleanser/toner when I order the Cerave.
Thank you so much for taking the time to read this long post! I am certain that the advice I collate from this forum is better than what some doctors could give. You guys are so knowledgeable! |
Hey Nikita, you're too nice! I was just like you trying to figure out a regimen a few yrs ago so I think thats why I always right such long posts!
I've gotta say that your regimen now seems perfect IMO. Your routine consists of Prevention (CE Ferulic, moisturizer with niacinamide and others) Protect (very high quality protection from UVA LRP) and Repair (retinoid). You have all the best products so I know your skin is going to benefit greatly.
For the moisturizer, both of those are good for morning and evening. However, I usually use Cerave when I am really dry (its sometimes heavy) or when my skin barrier is irritated. For everyday use, I would recommend something lighter. So atopalm is great and highly recommended by Dr. Baumann, but even cheaper would be to find a different Olay product which also repairs the skin barrier and has awesome ingredients. I personally use Olay Total Effects which could be a great buy for you, and Regenerist is probably the most recommended of all Olay products. It depends on if you want the serum (regenerist) or cream (total effects). Definity might ball up bc of the tiny crystals they put in to give the product a "glow" on the skin. Another recommendation would be Clinique Continuous Rescue Antioxidant Moisturizer (in my opinion the best due to the amount of quality ingredients) it includes niacinamde (not as high % as Olay) and has some of the best antioxidants, soy proteins, anti-inflammatory ingredients. Price is around $40, so I usually stick with Olay bc of the hi conc. of niacinamide and half the price. Atopalm is around $30 but comes in a slightly smaller package so its your decision. Now Cerave is cheapest of all thats why i think its always just good to have around, like say when your skin gets a little irritated/dry from retinoid etc.
Yes on the off nights when your not using a retinoid, use a regular moisturizer. For example I use my Total Effects, to repair and strengthen the skin barrier. Using niacinamide with a retinoid is great together bc niacinamide can help your skin become stronger and more tolerable to the retinoid. But its whatever moisturizer you choose, like you said you can use the emu oil at night (great moisturizer) and maybe barrier repair in the morning.
Its great that you have time off when starting the retinoid. There is nothing worse than having flaky and red skin when you to go into work! But really its not that bad, esp. if you ease into it gently.
Toners are a waste of money IMO. A good cleanser are gentle cleansers like Cetaphil, Oil of Olay, Cerave, the Neutrogena, Dove you mentioned. I would say get a cleanser from a drugstore thats not expensive. I don't feel that you have to pay a lot of money for a cleanser. Dr. Baumann in her book always states that "Big Name" comapanies like Oil of Olay, Neutrogena, Cetaphil etc have the most money to use for their products so they tend to have products with quality the same or even better than high priced more obscure brands. This applies to moisturizers as well.
Also for the sunscreen, just in case, say if you were going to be inside all day, or incidental sun exposure. A simple moisturizer with stable fairly high ppd would be fine (like Anthelios SX moisturizer). Especially since you use CE Ferulic that gives added protection (using CE always makes me feel confident as a second shield from the sun.) SPf moisturizers always feel better than sunscreen. But if the LRP Fluide Extreme is ok with you to use everyday than that of course that is the BEST option.
Another recommendation (doesnt need to be right now, bc all these new products might be costing a lot of money!) but quality supplements are great to add too. I like Dr. Brandt Antioxidant Water Boosters (equal to 15 cups of green tea, grapeseed extract, and others to choose like pomegranate, blueberry extract etc). Gluocasamine supplements will probably be the one supplement you will see a noticeable difference in the skin bc it helps synthesize hyaluronic acid that usu slows down production as we get older. People say it gives the skin a more "plump" look.
All in all, everything looks great for what you are doing. Remember you dont need to spend loads of money to get the best quality stuff. Money should be most spent on a high quality antiox serum (CE ferulic, like you have) and retinoid. Of course sunscreen as well, but I'm not sure if sunscreen is expensive in UK or not. In america, of course its a lot of money to get the best EU sunscreens. Good luck! |
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Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:20 pm |
Re diet supplements -
In my opinion, glucosamine is not the best choice for skin health and anti-aging. Glucosamine is usually recommended for patients with joint pain and arthritis. In Norway, where I live, this is a prescription strength drug.
The supplements that I have found to be most beneficial for my skin, is green foods like barley grass and wheat grass (rich in beta carotene), krill oil (contains omega 3 and the powerful antioxidant astaxanthin) and beta glucans 1.3/1.6.
Green tea, grape seed extract, blueberry, pomegranate and acai berry are also good choices as they are loaded with antioxidants and polyphenols.
Omega 3 and antioxidants work synergistically together and are excellent supplements to prevent signs of aging.
Lycopene (from tomatoes) is also highly beneficial for the skin and will to some degree work as an internal sunscreen and protect against sun damage.
Personally, I usually prefer food derived supplements to synthetic vitamins.
Taking the right supplements can make a big difference on your skin. |
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Female, 40, Norway. Normal/dry skin, starting to see signs of aging. Staples: Glycolic acid cleanser, SkinCeuticals Phloretin CF, Revaleskin, NIA24. |
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Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:22 pm |
Hey Aiva,
Ok this might be a long post but I really believe in the benefits of retinoids and want to give accurate answers.
First off, retinoids are very safe and their safety has been profiled for more than 30 years. Retinoids DO NOT cause thinning of the skin. They in fact STRENGTHEN the skin by enchancing the stimulation of collagen and elastin that gets depleted by UV rays. In fact, your skin thins naturally WITHOUT a retinoid and retinoids help to reverse that and thicken the epidermis. Let me first state that retinoids are a natural part of your skin, as there is retinoic acid (tretinoin= all trans retinoic acid) in the skin right now. UV degrades the retinoic acid present in our cells and by using topical tretinoin we are replacing what we lose each and everyday. Keratinocytes comprise 90% of the epidermal cells in the skin. Retinoic acid works to increase the cellular life of keratinocytes by maintaining and inducing telomerase activity (Biochem Biophys Res Commun. 2000 Feb 16;268(2):268-74.)
Telomerases are necessary in aging bc they add bits of nucleotide sequences to our dna that is lost when our cells replicate. When we lose bits of nucleotides we are infact aging bc our cells can only divide a certain amount of times before they reach the Hayflick limit (Hayflick limit is the number of times a cell will divide before it stops due to the telomere reaching a critical length: wikipedia) So retinoic acid are preventing aging of our skin cells!
Some might feel like retinoids are thinning the skin, but they are just increasing exfoliation which is absolutely necessary and losing skin cells increases the health of your skin by getting rid of pre-cancerous lesions and the DNA mutations collected from daily sun exposure. Underneath the shedding layer of the epidermis are stem cells that continually divide to replace lost skin cells. Retinoids are allowing those stem cells to function at an “optimal” level than what would not normally occur from sun damage (hence that’s where the telomerase part comes in and the retinoic acid binding to receptors in skin to help them differentiate at the highest quality). The soonoer you start on a retinoid the more photodamage you will prevent bc you will be lessening the UVA-activated MMP’s that break down the skin (collagen and elastin) and create wrinkles. It repairs and treats all the photodamage that occurs daily. Retinoids have been the most thoroughly researched topical and their safety has been evaluated numerious times (quick search on pubmed and you can see what I mean). Example here is quote from resarch articles “Assessment of the Long Term Safety of Topical Retinoids”: "Long-term safety of retinoid use has been established through continued use for more than 30 years and through the clinical trials that were performed to study their histologic effect."
As far as the age to start retinoids, most dermatologist suggest teens or twenties is the optimal time to start retinoid treatment. In fact, I am 21 and asked my derm that exact question and she stated “In my opinion, everyone in their twenties should be on a retinoid.” Doctors even recommned treatment at very early ages for people at high risk for UV damage (ethnicities with pale skin, freckles etc). Here is report from Dr. Kligman (founder of retin-A)
"When to begin treatment depends on the extent of photoaging. Most sun damage to the skin occurs in childhood. Histologic studies in Celts with apparently normal skin type I (ie, skin burns easily and tans poorly) have found that a surprising amount of damage has already been done to the dermal matrix by age 10. Thus, in blond, blue-eyed, light-skinned, freckled, Scotch-Irish persons, tretinoin therapy may be started before puberty if there is a history of sunburns in childhood, even if signs of photo-aging are not clinically evident. Examination of the skin under Wood's light is a simple way to estimate the degree of photodamage, since subclinical freckles and lentigines appear as conspicuous dark patches. For persons living in sunny areas, treatment begun in the 20s and 30s is advantageous, even in those with skin type IV (ie, dark skin that burns minimally and tans very easily), unless they have a history of minimal sun exposure in childhood."
Hope that helps Aiva! Believe me I had those exact concerns you did. I am around derms almost daily due to pre-med requirements and try to suck up all the information possible! |
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